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Sun Dec 18, 2011, 08:32 PM

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Deep13) on Sat Apr 5, 2014, 04:34 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
Deep13 Dec 2011 OP
Remember Me Dec 2011 #1
Deep13 Dec 2011 #5
JCMach1 Dec 2011 #9
backscatter712 Dec 2011 #2
Deep13 Dec 2011 #7
RainDog Dec 2011 #3
tishaLA Dec 2011 #4
Deep13 Dec 2011 #6
tishaLA Dec 2011 #10
Deep13 Dec 2011 #14
Burgman Dec 2011 #8
Deep13 Dec 2011 #19
Zorra Dec 2011 #11
Remember Me Dec 2011 #16
Deep13 Dec 2011 #17
Zorra Dec 2011 #28
Deep13 Dec 2011 #18
Betty Karlson Dec 2011 #12
Deep13 Dec 2011 #20
Zorra Dec 2011 #13
Aerows Dec 2011 #15
Deep13 Dec 2011 #21
Kaleko Dec 2011 #22
Deep13 Dec 2011 #23
hootinholler Dec 2011 #24
Deep13 Dec 2011 #25
hootinholler Dec 2011 #27
nashville_brook Dec 2011 #26
Deep13 Dec 2011 #29
Deep13 Dec 2011 #30
Laelth Dec 2011 #31
Deep13 Dec 2011 #32
Deep13 Dec 2011 #33
Zorra Dec 2011 #34
Deep13 Dec 2011 #35

Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:38 PM

1. Most excellent

 

In fact, this is among the top 3 or 4 essays and analyses of Occupy that I consider the best of the best. And in that company you'd find Chris Hedges and Michael Moore.

Parts I particularly loved:

A person internalizes and naturalizes the values of her or his society and constantly checks her thinking and actions against that standard.

Yes, this is the effect of a patriarchal society on women who've not had their consciousness raised (as the old sayng and reality goes): they take up the patriarchal mantal agaisnt their sisters. Phyllis Schlaffly and all those other rightwing women are perfect examples. Another term for it is "internalized oppression."

Instead of fixing or overthrowing the current system, OWS seeks an organic replacement. At some point, the movement will simply be the nation....

This can't be emphasized -- and repeated -- nearly often enough. People want an agenda? Hardly possible, other than "Change everything, from the bottom up." Another way to look at that reality:

It is absurd for us to decry the immorality of laws that allow banks to commit highway robbery while still fretting over camping regulations.

and:

Again, the idea is not simply to replace leaders or to enact specific reforms. OWS seeks to replace the entire political, social, and economic culture with a wider sense of human community. It already conducts itself in that manner. Rather than leaders with the prerogative to make decisions for the group, OWS operates on consensus.

and (actually a continuation of the previous paragraph, but so important I want to further emphasize it:

It is clear from the past ten or twelve years that there is no political, institutional solution for what ails us. Fortunately, we do not need one.


Get it (I know you do, Deep13)? There is NO WAY TO GET THERE FROM HERE, except via something like Occupy, something from completely outside the system, something from a new paradigm which in turn is capable of creating new paradigms.

And whew! If you take a look at what the incredible numbers are in the bankster scandals, not all that well publicized, it becomes all the more apparent -- and necessary. For example, see: The Wall Street Pentagon Papers: Biggest Scam In World History Exposed – Are The Federal Reserve’s Crimes Too Big To Comprehend?
http://ampedstatus.com/the-wall-street-pentagon-papers-biggest-scam-in-world-history-exposed-are-the-federal-reserves-crimes-too-big-to-comprehend/

Great essay. Thanks for sharing it.

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:42 AM

5. Thanks, I appreciate your remarks. nt

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:53 AM

9. Or, is OWS a solipsistic post-structural deconstruction of the system...

If it is only that, it has already suceeded...

Having followed Ad Busters for some years, I think that was probably the original intent of the protests.

What was not expected were some the things the OP talked about.

Hence, people have actually attached deeper meaning to the movement.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:47 PM

2. A couple years ago, I read Foucault for a Political Theory class.

Along with his book Discipline and Punish, we read Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth, Herbert Marcuse's One-Dimensional Man and Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation.

Tough reads, but good reads.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:45 AM

7. I especially like his treatment of sexuality.

It segues well into Judith Butler's discussion of gender as performance.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:52 PM

3. I love Foucault's dissections of power n/t

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:57 PM

4. I see OWS as more Deleuzo-Guattarian than Foucauldian nt

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Response to tishaLA (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:43 AM

6. Care to eloborate or are you just trying to one-up me? nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:15 AM

10. I don't try to one-up people on here

I save that for other places. I'll leave aside where I disagree with some of what you say about Foucault for a moment--especially about questions of assujettissement--just to say this: Foucauldian conceptions of power are, in not small measure, derived from those Deleuze and Guattari explored in Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia. Foucault wrote the preface to the book, which he called (I think I'm remembering this correctly) a "guide to anti-fascist living." In part, it's because of the kinds of metaphors Foucault uses to describe power in Panopticism: he says it's an "physics" or an "anatomy," meaning that it is, on the one hand, something that responds to each action with its own reaction and, on the other, a mode of particularizing, dividing, etc. I don't believe either of those metaphors is apt--and it's why I have always believed, along with Foucault, that Deleuze is the great philosopher of the 20th century while Foucault is a footnote to the Nietzschean oeuvre.

The important thing about the relationship between Deleuzo-Guatarrian thought and OWS (or, for example, ACT-UP), without resorting to a sclerotic understanding of them, is the way nomadism and the importance of assemblaces are to them. Nomadism is about "becoming" in Deleuze and Guattari--it is dynamic, just as power is in Foucault, but it occurs at the differently. I've had a couple glasses of wine, so I'm not able to go into it with great depth here; I need to think with a clear head to articulate it in any kind of depth. For ideas about assemblages in Deleuze and Guattari, which is perhaps the best reason to believe their thinking about the matter more related to OWS than Foucault's, check . It's the strategy of contingent alliances, etc.

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Response to tishaLA (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:29 AM

14. Thanks.

I'll look into that.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:45 AM

8. wonderfully said.

 

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Response to Burgman (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:31 PM

19. Thanks. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 03:21 AM

11. WOOT! Most Excellent Post. A masterpiece. Congratulations!


I need to read it over a few more times and sleep on it, it seems you have assembled some of the various thoughts and ideas about the nature of Occupy that have been swirling around in my mind and given them a relatively stable home.

It's amazing, your post just about proves to me that Occupy is collective consciousness manifesting, and therefore I'm sure you know exactly what I am talking about.

"OWS seeks to replace the entire political, social, and economic culture with a wider sense of human community. It already conducts itself in that manner."

Best. Post. Ever.


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Response to Zorra (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:12 PM

16. That's an excellent articulation too --

 

of something I've been thinking/observing/(intuiting?) --

...Occupy is collective consciousness manifesting...

And THAT is why, it seems to me, it is unlikely to be defeated; that is also why it is so incredibly creative and resilient.

WONDERFUL observation. Thanks for sharing it.

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:30 PM

17. +1

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Response to Remember Me (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 10:20 PM

28. Sharing it

is my pleasure, thank you.

And you responding that you are intuiting it also is a much greater pleasure.

Many others have been feeling it also.

The 1% has a great deal of power, but they can't kill an idea.

I also believe that it is unlikely to be defeated.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:31 PM

18. Thank you for that. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 03:34 AM

12. splendid article! Thanks ! n/t

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Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:31 PM

20. Thanks for reading. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:13 AM

13. _^_

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:37 AM

15. Glad to K & R

Great post, thank you for making it.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:32 PM

21. Thanks. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 05:15 PM

22. Very good read.

You and I arrived at the same conclusions re: OWS by totally different routes. Fascinating.

As a right-brain centered intuitive person, I instantly knew what OWS was about as soon as the first tent community sprang up in Zucotti Park. Like many others, I sensed the tremendous potential of this emerging movement to bring about the necessary and inevitable step in our collective evolution.

Without going into more detail, I would like to ask, are you familiar with Spiral Dynamics? If not, I highly recommend looking into it. Some of the guiding lights of the OWS movement (not leaders in the top-down sense! but influential visionaries nonetheless) are using the Spiral Dynamics map for their orientation and a deeper insight into the next steps on our journey into ever greater inclusiveness.

http://www.spiraldynamics.net/DrDonBeck/essays/human_capacities.htm

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Response to Kaleko (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 05:41 PM

23. Thanks for your remarks....

...I will look into Spiral Dynamics.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 06:40 PM

24. Food for thought?

Geebuz! A feast for thought!

And I opened this thinking what about pendulums is applicable here.

Thank you for this, it is a prime example of why I love DU.

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:07 PM

25. Thanks.

Yeah, it's a different Foucault. LOL

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:28 PM

27. Seriously, thank you. n/t

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:42 PM

26. really wonderful ideas -- thank you for the brain food!!

yummy

interesting how OWS caught fire at a time when dozens of "traditional" campaigns were floundering. apathy isn't the problem. meaningful engagement was the problem.

a whole generation of college-age voters put their hope and trust in Obama to be an agent of change. now they're graduated, saddled with student loans, and have no prospects for employment. reform within the traditional liberal system is a luxury this generation cannot afford.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:47 AM

29. Thanks for the comments. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 05:31 PM

30. shameless, self-serving kick.

Too late for more "recs" but people can still read it and make comments. Took me a few hours to write, so I hope you all over look the self-promotion.

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 05:59 PM

31. Well said. k&r n/t

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 06:05 PM

32. thanks nt

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Response to Deep13 (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 06:19 PM

33. Hey, there's people on a gun forum debating my blurb.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=135315&sid=822d24b13becc0a40ec487a456b87f66

I'm famous! Their first post seems to suggest that I am criticizing OWS saying that I caused it to be "laid bare." I hope it is clear that I am trying to promote OWS, not discredit it.

And to anyone over at Ruger forums checking this out: 1. thanks, 2. I also enjoy shooting my Rugers. I have 4: SR9c (Xmas present from Sweetie), 10/22 Deluxe, stainless Single Six (6.5", and Mark III "Hunter".

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:41 PM

34. LOL! It seems very clear to me that you were promoting Occupy.

IMO, you did pretty much lay bare the nature of OWS. That nature just happens to totally scare the shit out of people that live by fear, aggression, violence, hate, and greed.

Like you said in your post, "OWS seeks to replace the entire political, social, and economic culture with a wider sense of human community. It already conducts itself in that manner." I would go even further, and say that OWS is already in the process of replacing the entire political, social, and economic culture with a wider sense of human community.

To authoritarian conservative personalities, the tangible aura of collective human compassion and power to bring about inevitable constructive positive change that characterizes the nature of Occupy is terribly confusing, and overwhelmingly frightening.

I feel sorry for them to an extent; but their harmful, hateful, destructive self and mass delusions and illusions are becoming unsustainable and more lethal to everyone and everything with each passing day, and the world as they know it must necessarily drastically change or they will inevitably kill the planet. We simply can't put up with this childish behavior anymore. They are going to have great difficulty coping without someone in authority to tell them what to do, and authoritarian conservatives by nature lack imagination and the capability to comfortably adapt to new circumstances as well. They'll just have to cope with our peace and love, like we've had to cope with violence and hate. From our perspective, this is a no brainer; but prisoners often become fully dependent on their abusive captors, and abuse becomes the comfortable norm for them.

Fortunately, there's nothing they can do to stop this idea whose time has come.

It will take time for the change to fully manifest, but the power of love has already overcome the love of power, and there is no way to stop it now.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 21, 2011, 12:42 AM

35. Thanks, and you explain it very well. nt

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