HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Australian calls for Boyc...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:02 PM

Australian calls for Boycott of US over lack of Gun Control after shooting

<Yesterday, former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer has urged Australian tourists to boycott the US in the wake of the shooting murder of the Melbourne baseball star.

Mr Fischer said he was deeply angered by the latest tragedy and said turning our backs on America would help send a stern message about the need for tighter gun control.

Mr Fischer, who led Australia's gun control reforms alongside former prime minister John Howard in 1996, said choosing not to travel to the US would help build pressure on the US Congress to finally act.

"Tourists thinking of going to the USA should think twice,'' Mr Fischer said.

"This is the bitter harvest and legacy of the policies of the NRA that even blocked background checks for people buying guns at gunshows.>


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/two-teens-charged-with-murdering-melbourne-baseball-player-chris-lane/story-fni0fiyv-1226700172461

100 replies, 7114 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 100 replies Author Time Post
Reply Australian calls for Boycott of US over lack of Gun Control after shooting (Original post)
JI7 Aug 2013 OP
liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #1
kelliekat44 Aug 2013 #93
branford Aug 2013 #2
liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #3
branford Aug 2013 #16
MissMarple Aug 2013 #17
branford Aug 2013 #22
MissMarple Aug 2013 #60
branford Aug 2013 #63
VADem1980 Aug 2013 #54
MissMarple Aug 2013 #55
VADem1980 Aug 2013 #84
cali Aug 2013 #95
Tanuki Aug 2013 #31
branford Aug 2013 #37
MrModerate Aug 2013 #44
stevenleser Aug 2013 #7
tritsofme Aug 2013 #18
MissMarple Aug 2013 #19
NeoConsSuck Aug 2013 #30
stevenleser Aug 2013 #21
tritsofme Aug 2013 #23
stevenleser Aug 2013 #25
tritsofme Aug 2013 #32
stevenleser Aug 2013 #36
tritsofme Aug 2013 #38
stevenleser Aug 2013 #40
Kenneth Thomas Aug 2013 #70
stevenleser Aug 2013 #79
Kenneth Thomas Aug 2013 #85
stevenleser Aug 2013 #100
Kenneth Thomas Aug 2013 #98
MrModerate Aug 2013 #86
stevenleser Aug 2013 #88
MrModerate Aug 2013 #89
stevenleser Aug 2013 #39
Bunnahabhain Aug 2013 #92
stevenleser Aug 2013 #97
Bunnahabhain Aug 2013 #99
ForgoTheConsequence Aug 2013 #59
stevenleser Aug 2013 #64
Rstrstx Aug 2013 #66
Kenneth Thomas Aug 2013 #69
Democracyinkind Aug 2013 #77
CincyDem Aug 2013 #27
stevenleser Aug 2013 #33
tritsofme Aug 2013 #34
CincyDem Aug 2013 #35
frylock Aug 2013 #56
branford Aug 2013 #65
JI7 Aug 2013 #73
frylock Aug 2013 #82
joshcryer Aug 2013 #78
LanternWaste Aug 2013 #91
stevenleser Aug 2013 #4
DisgustipatedinCA Aug 2013 #9
Robb Aug 2013 #43
Ruby the Liberal Aug 2013 #5
Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #6
Skittles Aug 2013 #47
MissMarple Aug 2013 #8
stevenleser Aug 2013 #10
MissMarple Aug 2013 #13
Cha Aug 2013 #11
marions ghost Aug 2013 #12
stevenleser Aug 2013 #26
marions ghost Aug 2013 #41
stevenleser Aug 2013 #42
marions ghost Aug 2013 #46
joeybee12 Aug 2013 #14
bemildred Aug 2013 #15
malaise Aug 2013 #20
PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #24
Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #48
Moses2SandyKoufax Aug 2013 #28
Number23 Aug 2013 #29
Skip Intro Aug 2013 #45
Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #76
Recursion Aug 2013 #49
HolyMoley Aug 2013 #50
Scootaloo Aug 2013 #58
Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #61
Scootaloo Aug 2013 #62
Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #71
Scootaloo Aug 2013 #75
MrModerate Aug 2013 #87
DirkGently Aug 2013 #51
BlueJazz Aug 2013 #52
Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #72
BlueJazz Aug 2013 #83
MotherPetrie Aug 2013 #53
joelz Aug 2013 #57
Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #67
branford Aug 2013 #68
Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #80
JI7 Aug 2013 #74
Egalitarian Thug Aug 2013 #81
dembotoz Aug 2013 #90
typeviic Aug 2013 #94
cali Aug 2013 #96

Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:04 PM

1. money is the only thing our country seems to undertand. I don't blame him for wanting

to boycott.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:55 AM

93. What the Aussies really need to do is stop giving a market to US gun runners. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:23 PM

2. So long as its OK for Americans to boycott Australian tourism, good and services in response.

Americans certainly do not support the murder, and the prosecutor appears anxious to punish the offender as severely as the law will allow. Australia is certainly not immune to violent crime, with or without the use of a gun.

If Mr. Fischer believes that America should be punished through trade because we generally support gun rights, well, be careful what you wish for. If his boycott takes hold, which I very much doubt, don't be surprised if Americans, including many Democrats, decide that Australia might not be good tourist destination or that their dollars should not be spent on Australian goods.

Nevertheless, his convenient political preening is likely meaningless. Any Australian so afraid of American gun laws, or misinformed and do not believe tourists are as safe here as anywhere, already would not visit the United States.

He links his opposition to guns to former PM Howard. Although Howard is in fact a gun opponent, he often speaks quite positively about the United States and often visits the country. I'll take Fischer's hyperbolic boycott talk more seriously when John Howard vocally agrees to such nonsense.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:26 PM

3. generally supporting gun control is a great idea but the cold hard facts are that the NRA and the

gun manufacturers have laws written in their favor because they have bought and paid for politicians. Our laws favor gun ownership, not gun control. We couldn't even get mandatory universal background checks after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. Can you imagine how we must look to the rest of the world?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:07 PM

16. Our laws most certainly favor gun ownership, it's in the damn federal Constitution.

Protections for gun rights are also guaranteed by most state constitutions. Even if these protections disappeared tomorrow, it would only permit additional regulation. As you have already noted that universal background checks could not pass the Senate (no less the House), and concealed carry reciprocity actually garnered more Senate votes than the background checks, the chances of passing significantly greater firearm regulation, no less laws similar to Australia, is slightly higher than zero.

We've both been through this before. American's have a unique culture, just like Australians, British, Chinese, Russians, Mexican, Germans or anyone else. Most American happen to believe quite strongly in a broad right to keep and bear arms. You and others, of course, are free to disagree and seek changes to the law or amend the Constitution. Democracy is wonderful. You are also free to try to convince others of the wisdom of your proposals by exclaiming how bad we must look to other countries. To be blunt, good luck with that.

Similarly, free people may visit the United States, or not, for whatever reasons they choose. I highly doubt that a call for a tourist boycott by a former deputy prime minister of Australia will even result in a rounding error in the trade and travel relationship between our countries.

As Australia is hardly a utopia free of violence, particularly with the increases in the percentages of homicides using a knife, maybe Mr. Fischer should concentrate on solving the criminal problems of his own country.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:37 PM

17. Many of the amendments have exceptions.

A case could be made equating openly letting unbalanced or violent people have guns is similar to yelling fire in a crowded theater. And at some point the "American" culture will change enough to push past the propaganda from the gun lobbies. We have many subcultures and more and more sensible people throughout them are beginning to understand the broader problems. Being able to get a concealed carry license on line is insane. Domestic abusers often have repeated access to guns.

More people are beginning to wonder why we have such an inconsistent patchwork of gun control laws. This clearly doesn't work. And saying it doesn't work is no reason to say consistency and consistent enforcement won't work. I read that gun laws are unenforceable almost every day in our local paper. That really doesn't make any sense. The gun issue is a divisive distraction. We have more serious issues to face. And we are not doing that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:58 PM

22. The problems you focus on are mostly addressed by current law.

Felons, those judicially determined to be a danger to themselves or others, and domestic abusers, already cannot own or possess firearms under current statutes that are under no constitutional challenge by the NRA or anyone else.

You also appear to want uniform laws. Be very careful what you wish for. In the recent gun debate, national concealed carry reciprocity received more votes in the Senate than universal background checks, and would likely pass the House where background checks would have suffered a quick death.

Would agree to more liberalized gun laws on firearm ownership, possession and use on the condition that they were subject to uniform federal oversight?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #22)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:12 PM

60. Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I live in Colorado Springs, CO.

Most of the pro gun discussion here involves Rush Limbaugh type diatribe. A reasonable discussion is not possible. Democratic led legislation has created something of a firestorm here. We have been told all of us liberals are going to learn fear, and any state legislator will shake in terror of retribution and recall if he or she even thinks of "infringement" of any gun "rights". The right to vote, however, can be closely regulated according to the same people.

Here is a link to the new changes that seem to cause intensely partisan gun advocates to froth at the mouth in outrage. Closing loopholes seems to be a horrific infringement to them. Many here believe that the money behind all this, some coming through our purported Libertarian Independence Institute, is from the gun industry and corporate interest groups interested in distracting and inciting the GOP extremists. If you pay attention to politics here you feel as if you have been taken up in right wing whirlwind. Reasoned discussion doesn't exist between the parties as it also doesn't at the national level for many of the same reasons.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0198.htm

These, as I understand, have been endorsed by the Colorado Association of Police chiefs.

I think uniform federal oversight is needed, I don't know what you mean by "liberalized" gun laws. What concerns me is the hysteria being promulgated by what appear to be opportunists misrepresenting the bills to people all to willing to believe in "liberal evildoers". There was a time for discussion and input from GOP legislators, they chose to incite fear, paranoia and protest instead. I think it is pathetic, but also dangerous. After reading about Jonathan Haidt's research and conclusions, I can better understand where the fear originates and why it is encouraged. Reasoned discourse has been abandoned, if it has ever existed for very long.

http://www.ted.com/speakers/jonathan_haidt.html

Good night.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #60)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:14 AM

63. My point is basically that the gun debate is complicated.

The issues go well beyond one's feelings concerning the Second Amendment, and involve culture, geography and many underlying social and economic issues than transcend divisions of party loyalty.

As the recent debates after Newton clear demonstrate, the will to enact even minor federal legislation is lacking, no less more comprehensive measures of dubious constitutionality.

I am not a gun owner, nor have any desire to own one. I live and work in NYC and feel quite safe. However, as an attorney, I believe the entire Constitution should be broadly interpreted to guaranty maximum personal liberty and civil rights. The Second Amendment is not an exception. Such a slippery could ultimately erode hard won battles such as a woman's right to choose and privacy protections. Additionally, as a citizen, I realize that some people's living and work situations are far more volatile than my own, and would not wish to deny anyone the most effective means of self-defense.

I think we can agree on the following: If you want to reduce the number of guns in America, addressing the social and economic conditions that make people feel the need or want to own a gun, would be effective, legal, and agreeable to both sides of the the gun debate.

And a very good evening to you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:12 PM

54. Concealed carry is insane?

 

Hell, the fact they let civilians posses hand held murder machines at all is insane to me. The racist second amendment has got to GO.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to VADem1980 (Reply #54)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:26 PM

55. To obtain a concealed carry license on line seems insane to me.

At the very least it is irresponsible. The origin of the 2nd amendment is not racist in origin.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #55)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 08:45 PM

84. Actually, it is.

 

It is well documented that the second amendment was put in because slave owners were terrified of slave uprisings.

http://blackagendareport.com/content/american-history-black-history-and-right-bear-arms

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/03/whitewashing-second-amendment

It is absolutely racist!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #55)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:02 AM

95. In my state, anyone over 16 can conceal carry- no license necessary

and yet Vermont has a low rate of gun violence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:29 PM

31. Yeah, because those stupid punks who shot the Aussie were clearly

members of "a well regulated militia," just as the second amendment specifies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Tanuki (Reply #31)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:44 PM

37. Did you even read my comment?

Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)

The "stupid punks" who murdered the Aussie were minors and illegally possessed and used their firearms under even the current interpretation of the Second Amendment. They are being prosecuted to the fullest extend of the law. I would also add that they could have just as easily committed their crime with a common kitchen knife. The gun issue is a red herring.

However, apart from your snark, do you have any actual response to my analysis of Second Amendment jurisprudence, cultural trends in the USA concerning firearm ownership and use, the political and legal viability of changing federal and state constitutions and statutes concerning guns, or Australia's own increasing problem of violent crimes committed with knives?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:02 PM

44. I live in Australia and travel internationally a lot . . .

And I can tell you exactly how we look to the rest of the world: like we're effing nuts.

Australia's response to a Sandy Hook-level horror was imposition of sane gun control legislation that almost everyone in Australia agrees with, including the thousands of Aussie who haven't died from gun violence since 1996.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:32 PM

7. Australians have a much higher median wealth than we do. It probably hurts us more than them if we

get into this kind of a boycott conflict. 90% of Australians can afford to travel around the world regularly.

That is not the same for us here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:43 PM

18. US population is 14 times that of Australia.

There's a lot more of us than them. Even with marginally higher median wealth, that is the difference maker.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:46 PM

19. It's likely that people in other countries may join in.

But it's a good point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:27 PM

30. One can only hope...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:54 PM

21. The difference is huge, not "marginal". That overcomes the population difference

90% of Americans can't afford to travel overseas let alone to Australia which is an expensive trip. Whereas the majority of Australians can travel all the time with the kind of wealth they have.

I've noticed that wherever I have gone, I encounter Aussies having a blast. It must be nice to have an economy that ensures everyone gets the benefits of that country's prosperity.

http://www.middleclasspoliticaleconomist.com/2013/06/us-median-wealth-only-28th-in-world.html

Here is the list of the top 27 countries by median wealth per adult.

Country Median Wealth
Per Adult

1. Australia $193,653
2. Luxembourg $153,967
3. Japan $141,410
4. Italy $123,710
5. Belgium $119,937
6. United Kingdom $115,245
7. Iceland $ 95,685
8. Singapore $ 95,542 (non-OECD)
9. Switzerland $ 87,137
10. Denmark $ 87,121
11. Austria $ 81,649
12. Canada $ 81,610
13. France $ 81,274
14. Norway $ 79,376
15. Finland $ 73,487
16. New Zealand $ 63,000
17. Netherlands $ 61,880
18. Ireland $ 60,953
19. Qatar $ 57,027 (non-OECD)
20. Spain $ 53,292
21. United Arab Emir. $ 47,998 (non-OECD)
22. Taiwan $ 45,451 (non-OECD)
23. Germany $ 42,222
24. Sweden $ 41,367
25. Cyprus $ 40,535 (non-OECD)
26. Kuwait $ 40,346 (non-OECD)
27. United States $ 38,786

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:00 PM

23. Interesting. Curious, is this your theory?

Is there really data out there that shows Australians spend more or even a comparable amount in aggregate on international travel than Americans?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:16 PM

25. Theory? I've included the stats on median wealth per adult for the countries. Do the math.

50% of American adults have total wealth of $38K or lower. That wealth includes their income, their property, etc. None of those folks can afford to go to Australia. They probably can't afford to go to Mexico or Canada unless they drive, assuming their car can even make it. 50%, gone for sure. We also know that the wealth of Americans doesn't start to trend up appreciably until the 90% mark. 90% of Americans simply can't afford to go to Australia. They might be able to save up and do a trip that costs what it costs to go to Australia once or twice in their lives. Maybe.

50% of Australians have total wealth of $190K or higher. Those folks can easily afford a trip a year anywhere, probably several per year. The Aussies I've met out and about seem to be traveling all the time and they were/are not wealthy by Australian standards. We also know that wealth is much more evenly distributed in Australia as compared to here, the Median wealth number is a strong corroboration for that. The folks that could easily afford a trip anywhere probably goes down to the 15th percentile, perhaps even lower. i.e. 85% of Australians can afford to do a trip like to the US once per year.

It would end up being very close.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:29 PM

32. So then the answer is no?

I'm not saying you must be wrong, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the higher median wealth of Australians translates into higher aggregate spending on international travel than Americans. Maybe they spend more on crocodile hunting, Foster's, or savings, we just don't know based on the wealth figures and your travel experiences. I think it is definitely an interesting theory, if there is any data out there that bears it out, I would be interested to see it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #32)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:43 PM

36. OK, took some doing. Here are the stats...

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features20Sep+2010

The number of Australian residents travelling overseas for trips of less than a year has grown at an unprecedented rate over recent years. In the 12 months to June 2010, 6.8 million overseas trips were made by Australians, up from 2.1 million two decades earlier. In per capita terms, this was the equivalent to 31 trips overseas for every 100 Australian residents in 2009-10, up from 12 trips per 100 residents in 1989-90.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-d-chalmers/the-great-american-passpo_b_1920287.html

The real story is that when broken down, those 25.8 million trips overseas were taken by approximately just 13.3 million American residents. And that means that in total, the real number of Americans that actually traveled (took trips) overseas in 2009 for either business or leisure, was about 15.5 million --o r just five percent of our nation's 311 million residents!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are some caveats here. An overseas trip for an American on average is shorter. Mexico is considered overseas. The rest of Latin America and the caribbean is considered overseas.

When an Australian travels overseas, it's usually a big trip. The big population centers of Asia are even farther than most of Latin America.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:50 PM

38. Interesting, the Aussies definitely get out!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:50 PM

40. See #39 below. I should dig further into my own links!!!!!! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 02:38 AM

70. Good catch!

That's really amazing. We have more than 10 times Australia's population, but more Australians visit the U.S. than vice-versa. I'm going to steal this and credit you.

Thanks for linking to my post above.

Also, I think you meant Mexico is not considered overseas (that's how I read your source article). Canada is also not overseas. But everywhere else is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kenneth Thomas (Reply #70)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 06:41 AM

79. Thank you so much for your great blogpost.

I think it would be great to have you on my radio show to talk about these stats and the difference in the economic policies that cause them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #79)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 09:52 PM

85. I'd be happy to

Email me at kpthomas55@hotmail.com.

Best,
Kenneth

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Kenneth Thomas (Reply #85)

Thu Aug 29, 2013, 01:36 PM

100. Sent! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #79)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:11 PM

98. And I did cite you in my new column at US News & World Report

I featured your find in a column on low U.S. wealth and what it means for the middle class retirement crisis looming just ahead: [link:http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/08/22/australias-middle-class-wealth-shows-how-far-america-has-fallen|

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:42 AM

86. There are a couple of other factors that affect the significance of 'median wealth' . . .

For one, almost all Aussies' wealth is tied up in their homes (just like Americans), but those homes are hugely more expensive than equivalent American homes.

The majority of Aussies live in cities and their suburbs (>70%) where median housing prices sit at AUD400-500 thousand. That pretty much takes care of your 193K per capita right there. But that wealth is not liquid, and while some older people do mortgage their houses and travel after retirement, that option is not generally available to younger families.

Secondly, the cost of living is insanely higher here. A beer in a pub is AUD8 minimum. A starter car is 40,000. An economy flight from Sydney to Perth is AUD900, a meal for two with a glass of house wine in a family restaurant is AUD100. (The only thing that's inexpensive is health care, which is nearly free.) Taxes are also substantially higher including an across-the-board consumption tax called GST, which adds 10% to most purchases, and income tax that tops out at about 50%.

It's true that Aussies love to travel. But hey if you lived there (as I do), you'd travel too. Not that Australia is a bad place to live (it is, literally, one of the best places in the world) it is nevertheless at the ass end of nowhere, and it's most certainly not London, or New York, or LA, or Paris, or Stockholm, or Munich, etc., etc., etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MrModerate (Reply #86)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:57 AM

88. Many of those prices are very similar to the big US cities and their suburbs

NYC, Washington DC, Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles and San Francisco in particular have restaurant and real estate prices very similar to what you just listed. But you wont find median wealth per adult even in those cities and their suburbs at $193K. Probably not even close to that.

This is a graphic representation of the problem here in NYC. NYC has a massive amount of wealth if you look at it aggregately. But when you look at the distribution of that wealth, you see the same problem the rest of the country has. http://m.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/08/visualization-day-new-york-citys-wealth-gap-mapped-3d/6571/

Sure, we have an impressive pocket of super wealthy people here. But wealth for the rest of NYC drops off sharply.



Australia does not have that issue. You can say that the wealth is mostly tied up in homes and claim that this means the wealth is not liquid, but if you have that kind of equity in your home, you can borrow against that equity quite easily. You can sell that home and move to an apartment. You have options. It's quite different from someone whose total wealth is $15,000-40,000.

On Edit: Note the above graphic is household wealth, not wealth per adult.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #88)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:58 AM

89. Your point is well taken, but. . .

The median prices I cited apply to just about all Australian cities, not just the traditionally expensive ones (of course, Australia only has five major cities and about 15 medium/minor ones for its 23 million population).

One of the differences is that wealth inequity is much less pronounced, so even when you factor in "the big end of town" it's a much smaller proportion of households than would be the case in the US.

There are what we would call slums, sad to say, but they are almost entirely rural, where median per capita wealth is more like the yellow areas in your map above.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #32)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:50 PM

39. Here it is. This is it. From those same links, another important stat I didn't see at first

Only 2 percent of the 25 million annual overseas trips by Americans are to Australia. That is 500,000 trips.

Australians make 643,000 trips to the US each Year.

We would be hurt more than they would by mutual boycots.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #39)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:53 AM

92. One in eight Aussies live in poverty

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-14/1-in-8-australians-living-in-poverty/4312154

Above you said 90% of Aussies can afford to travel internationally every year. I do not think so.

Exaggeration always ruins what might be a valid point.

Here is a list of tourist dollars spent in the US. Oz ranks #8 at $5.5 billion: http://www.eturbonews.com/35120/australian-tourists-spending-big-money-trips-united-states

While $5.5 billion sounds like a lot it's 1/5 what #1 (Canada) spent at about $26 billion. Now, $26 billion sounds like even more, but against a GDP of $16.6 trillion? Not a material amount.

Which is not to say I do not support some sane gun laws and I certainly support the proposed Oz boycott...but let's just put things in perspective.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bunnahabhain (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 03:49 PM

97. Interesting. From reading your own link, both stats can be more or less true

Of the 2.2 million people your stat cites as living in poverty, 600,000 are children, most of whom live in 1 adult families. The stats I was quoting were median wealth per adult.

600,000 are children, around another 600,000 are the single adults that live with those children. Another 1 million are not explained. Still, 2.2 million is actually closer to 1 in 10. Population of Australia is 22 million right now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #97)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:50 PM

99. Not quite

 

Just because one is not in poverty does not mean one can afford to travel the world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:05 PM

59. Ugh. I've never seen these statistics before.

Sad.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #59)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:18 AM

64. It's actually more dramatic than that indicates

Because Australia has more wage and wealth equality, there are very few people who are even as "poor" as those in the US at our median wealth.

It is very sad.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #21)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:45 AM

66. WTF? An average Italian is worth almost 3x the average German?!

Something seems fishy here, like some cooking the books with real estate is going on. I'm guessing that's what is pushing Australia's numbers up on the high side and doubt it's a reliable indicator of disposable income.

I'm also quite sure if you used the mean instead of the median for wealth the US would go way up on the list (not that that's a good thing).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rstrstx (Reply #66)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 02:24 AM

69. That's one reason so many Germans oppose the bailouts

Despite the economic disasters in Italy (and even worse Spain), median wealth in both countries is higher than in Germany. Mean wealth in Italy ($212,910) is higher than that in Germany ($174,526), too, though Spain is much lower ($104,773) and falling fast. Numbers like these make a lot of Germans question why they're bailing out Spain, Italy, etc.

Of course, these data from the 2012 Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report (I can send you a copy which I downloaded; the link seems irretrievably broken) are not a measure of income. But income is more evenly distributed than wealth in every country, so this means income distribution is even more equal in Australia than wealth distribution is.

You are right that the U.S. comes out better on mean wealth per adult; it is #7 rather than #27. And you're right that it's not a good thing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Rstrstx (Reply #66)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:45 AM

77. Yes. Many misconceptions about Italy as a "poor country".

Italy doesn't have any money.
The Italians do, though. Been this way for quite some time. The disparity is reversed when looking at income levels, though. (This all from memory)

Additionally, not all debts are equal. Much like the Japanese, but to a lesser extent, Italy owes money to its own people rather than to foreign investors.

There's many sides to these kinds of coins.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:23 PM

27. That assumes all American's would agree to participate in this reverse boycott


Many Americans will say "I won't go there".

But I suspect many more will say "what better way to show the NRA that it's time they start changing their f'ing ways".

Besides, if it were to catch on...where would you visit? Maybe a 3 day weekend in Mogadishu ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CincyDem (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:31 PM

33. Right, the motivations would be totally different. Don't go to a place that might kill you, or

participate in a reverse boycott for spite.

I can see a big difference in motivation driving participation there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CincyDem (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:31 PM

34. It's silly all around. It assumes that anyone of any consequence would agree to it on either side.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tritsofme (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:41 PM

35. Ask South Africa how that worked for them.


It takes years for something like this to gain traction and it's probably hard to measure but once it sets in, it takes decades to dig out...and in the case of SA, only gut-wrenching cultural changes were sufficient to shift the global mindset.

Aparthied was ingrained in their laws as deeply as guns are in ours.

If, over years, something like this became a reality I suspect we would have to make the same gut-wrenching changes.

I've traveled overseas for business a lot in the past 25 years. There is no question attitudes about the US have changed for a lot of reasons. The US is not the "place to see" that it was 25, even 15 years ago and there are a lot more comments about "it's the wild west, so why bother".

It's like Amman Jordan or even Beirut today. We think everyone over there is getting shot at every day because the only news we hear is about the 3 guys at some rally in a no-whereville suburb getting shot at. That creates our view.

It's the same in reverse. When I tell people I'm from chicago, to a person there is some reference to "Ahhhh...bang bang...how did you survive". We know it's bullshit but that's the international view.

More like that and it will become the international truth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:36 PM

56. hey you let us know how that boycott works out for you, mkay?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #56)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:24 AM

65. I'm not advocating a boycott, that is precisely my point.

Nor do I believe Australians will engage in any noticeable economic action based on a murder that shocked and saddened Americans and could have as easily been carried out with a kitchen knife.

Citing the political pandering and opportunism of Mr. Fischer does little to constructively advance the gun debate in the USA, no less help reach compromises or advance the mutual economic interests of both our countries.

Australia and the USA are free countries. Mr. Fischer may say or advocate anything he wishes. I, however, do not have agree with its effectiveness or wisdom.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #65)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:43 AM

73. they shot him in the back while he was jogging and they were in a car

the gun certainly made it easier.

they could have killed him with a knife but there are more chances for him to be able to get away with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #65)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 11:20 AM

82. given the choice, would you rather face someone with a kitchen knife..

or someone with a gun? given enough time, they could've killed him with cigarettes or big macs. perhaps they could've killed him with a bathtub.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 06:15 AM

78. Aussies are some of the most traveled people on the planet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:42 AM

91. I imagine that there some who would boycott Australia due to their low rate

"So long as its OK for Americans to boycott Australian tourism..."

I imagine that there some who would boycott Australia due to their low rate (absolute and per capita) of gun violence. I'd find it silly to the point of absurdity, but by all means-- boycott that which is offensive to you, even if that offense is predicated on a more civil and less violent country.

Good luck!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:30 PM

4. Can't say I blame them. I'm glad I live in a city with a lot of gun control. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:34 PM

9. I don't blame them either (feel free to frame this rare point of agreement). n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:01 PM

43. I'll blow it out of the water and agree with BOTH of you. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:30 PM

5. Good for him

Tourists should be worried. Hit the wrong street at the wrong time of day and you just might find yourself face to face with a weapon.

I loathe our gun culture here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:31 PM

6. The NRA is about to turn the outrage/smear machine up to 11

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:35 PM

47. when that happens DU's resident gun humpers get animated too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:33 PM

8. Maybe this will get the Australian gun laws and their effect on gun violence on the radar here.

I am so out of patience with effective gun laws being blocked by the preppers, the zombie phobes and the conspiracy theorists, and the over the top shoot, apart the house with really big guns home defenders. Guns are a part of our culture, but we let the stupidest, most inept and unbalanced people have easy access to them. Australia has figured this out. And I am not going to call them a bunch of weenie batters or cowering sissies. Not everyone needs to go around with a gun for "protection". And not all of the ones who do are proficient enough to use one effectively.

More guns equal more gun deaths. People used to understand this. For some people guns are like drugs. They are always going to want more. Requiring responsibility doesn't seem to be something that is valued. The people who respect guns and want to limit what they can do in irresponsible hands are not the ones being conned.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MissMarple (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:37 PM

10. If dancing in the middle of times square in a speedo swimsuit and top hat would work, I'd try that.

I just dont think anything is going to be able to move the dial on gun control here. If the death of all of those kids in Newtown didn't do it, nothing will, at least not anytime soon.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:48 PM

13. Maybe the three crazy teens with a gun in the middle of Oklahoma will make some people blink.

There has to be a tipping point. The gullibility is dismaying. I hope Lincoln was right with the "some of the people" quote.

And if you did that in Colorado Springs with the speedo, all of my friends will come in support. But not in speedos, most definitely not.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:44 PM

11. It's unfalthomable the depravity that went into killing

that kid from Melbourne, Australia.

So much of America does want sensible gun laws.. to bad they can't boycott the fucking NRA.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:44 PM

12. If you go to Australia

you can feel the difference immediately. The level of fear of others is so much less because the population is free from gun violence.Here, we who aren't participants in the gun culture have to go around always feeling paranoid and making children paranoid. It's like living in a prison.

OK with me if everybody would avoid America because of this barbarism.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #12)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:20 PM

26. Add the wage and wealth fairness they have there and I am sure crime and violence is low.

See my #21 above. It's staggering.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:54 PM

41. The truth that many Americans don't want to see...

that there are horrendous inequities in the system that bring us all down and threaten to tear the thin fabric of civilized society apart.

Thanks for trying to educate people with the example of Australia. Americans have no idea what living in a country that actually invests in its people is like. It is mind-blowing.

Instead we here are fighting for basic rights that should have been settled beyond question decades ago--for the right to vote, for public education, for health care, unions, pensions, a fair wage, etc etc. not to mention clean air and water. That's how the Corporates keep Americans downtrodden and putting up with conditions that Australians can hardly even imagine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marions ghost (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:58 PM

42. I talk about wage fairness on my show a lot. It will be the top topic again this week! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to stevenleser (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:18 PM

46. Keep on talkin

& hammer that Australia comparison.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:49 PM

14. I certainly understand the anger...and he's right...the NRA owns our

government...Australians are outraged by the shooting, we Americans are numbed to this violence because it's so frequent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 06:58 PM

15. That would be awesome. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 07:46 PM

20. Good n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:47 PM

48. an individual calling for a boycott isn't international relations n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:24 PM

28. Good for them! n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 08:24 PM

29. K&R I'm game for just about anything that will improve gun control.

If such a staunch ally as Australia (that I sometimes truly believe wants to be the 51st US state) could get something like this on the books, maybe it would penetrate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:06 PM

45. Yeah, the perps were clearly NRA members.



Load of hogwash from gun-grabbers down under.

I guess if the victim had been bludgeoned to death with a hammer, he'd be screaming for hammer control.

That sounds ridiculous because it is. It isn't the tool. It's the person.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skip Intro (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 05:10 AM

76. He didn't say they were NRA members...

And if anyone who supported the strict gun control measures introduced here after the Port Arthur massacre is a 'gun-grabber', then count me among them. And just so you know, Tim Fisher was leader of the more conservative party in the Liberal/National coalition that was in govt and introduced those gun control laws. Much of his rural base opposed the laws, so as far as politicians go, he took a brave stance knowing that it could come back to bite his party at the next election.

I experienced the reaction in my country to a horrifying massacre, and when Sandy Hook happened, I thought similar would happen in the US. While it was clear the Democrats tried, a culture that doesn't think there's anything warped about carrying guns around and even in some cases towns having laws that mandate that people must own guns made sure that sensible gun control laws weren't going to happen, and ensure that there will be at some point another Sandy Hook.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 09:48 PM

49. If only the US would pass a law making it illegal for minors to buy firearms (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:05 PM

50. Stay on your side of the Hemisphere then

 

The American infatuation with Australia, and all things Australian, began and ended with "Crocodile Dundee" and "Men In Hats" (Vegemite sandwiches), over 30 years ago.

However, I will give them credit for at least one of their, and Gods greatest contributions to civilization, the "Thunder From Down Under"...



Unless your name is Angus, Malcom, Brian, etc (yes, I'm aware that they're Scottish, English),
or you disapprove of, or are fearful of our gun control laws and/or BOR, please stay as far away from us as you can.

Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HolyMoley (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:53 PM

58. It's actually "Men At Work"

Maybe you're confused with Men Without Hats, a Canadian group

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #58)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:46 PM

61. plus they seem to be confused about AC/DC

They seem to be confusing them with bands that don't churn out derivative mind blowing boring Bogan shit that makes matchbox 20 look cutting edge.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #61)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 12:05 AM

62. Now that's just mean

Comparing ANY band (except Creed) to Matchbox 20. Shame on you, VC.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #62)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:37 AM

71. I know, but claiming they're our greatest gift to civilisation deserves a harsh response...

Everyone knows that along with Barry Manilow, AC/DC (they didn't suck till after Bon Scott choked to death on his own puke after a massive night drinking) inhabit one of the seven circles of musical hell...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:55 AM

75. Pffft. Everyone knows what your greatest gift to civilization REALLY is...

Keeping all those hideous fucking poisonous motherfucking critters contained well the hell away from the rest of us. Irony; the prisoners are now the wardens

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HolyMoley (Reply #50)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 12:46 AM

87. Check with most unattached young women . . .

And see if America's 'infatuation with Australia' ever ended.

Check with most unattached young men and play them a tape of a young Aussie woman speaking and see if you get a 'rise' out of them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:06 PM

51. We continue to horrify the world.


We're not going to lose our international position because of China's economy or India's labor force.

We're going to lose it because our culture is mired in violence, corruption, and stupidity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:09 PM

52. Boy I need to stay out of this one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BlueJazz (Reply #52)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:39 AM

72. Yes, it might be difficult for you...

Seeing I haven't got a trip to the US on the cards for the next few years at least, it's really easy for me...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Violet_Crumble (Reply #72)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:14 PM

83. Ah..Yes...No matter what I say, feelings will get hurt.

Quick thing. I go to visit my home land often...Well, no so often now.
You know, 3 years ago a flight to Sydney was something like $995.00 or maybe a little more.
NOW...Christ, it's at least twice that.

Fun thing. Look at the price to Sydney (First Class and within 3 days of now) it's usually around $20,000

WTF !!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:11 PM

53. Don't blame 'em. There should be a world wide boycott.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Tue Aug 20, 2013, 10:46 PM

57. My family and I don't go back anymore (2003) I just don't feel safe

anymore been in Canada since '70 still casting absentee votes for progressive P.A. candidates and praying for some kind of positive change,

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 01:12 AM

67. I totally sympathize with his point and request, but he seems to not understand that

 

guns are one of the major draws for Australians (and many other tourists from all over the world), at least here in America's #1 tourist destination, Las Vegas. We have at least half a dozen Shoot a Real Machine Gun stores here and more are opening every month or so. These place are packed every minute they're open and basically none of the customers are American.

These places rent full-auto rifles of every size and type, and blowing $1,000 in a few minutes is standard fare.

If this trend keeps up, we might just have to add machine guns to our unofficial motto of Hookers and Blow.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 01:55 AM

68. Full-Auto with hookers and blow. Who needs gambling? :)

At least the guns are legal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to branford (Reply #68)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 11:01 AM

80. Well, the gambling has and continues to be less of a draw, overall.

 

The combination of more local availability and the corporation's failure to understand how to play the game well have resulted in reduced gaming revenue.

But, Hookers and blow are timeless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 04:45 AM

74. they are able to buy guns and take them back home with them ?

i'm pretty sure our tourism will remain the same or even increase with more gun control.

and i'm pretty sure most tourists who come don't do so because of guns.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Reply #74)

Wed Aug 21, 2013, 11:04 AM

81. Not even close to most, but many and the numbers are still growing

 

every month and more and more of these shops are popping up all the time.

And yes, you can buy them. Whether or not you can take them home is not the store's problem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:25 AM

90. there are times i would like the boycott the us too

and i really want to boycott wisconsin
trouble is i live here

makes the boycott hard to do.....

i do think that the guy giving travel warnings is not unwarrented

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:56 AM

94. But we do have gun control

 

Felons are not allowed to posses them and there are background checks. Do you think the Australian guy means a total gun ban?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to typeviic (Reply #94)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:04 AM

96. We have varying degrees of gun control depending on the jurisdiction

a felon not being allowed in possession is NOT gun control. And background checks are not extended to either gun shows or private sales.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread