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Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:06 PM

 

Hugo Chavez has died, and in a way, that's a shame.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/03/05/173559844/president-hugo-chavez-has-died-vice-president-says

He was one of the few leaders in Central and South America who stood up to US hegemony in the region.

97 replies, 5569 views

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Reply Hugo Chavez has died, and in a way, that's a shame. (Original post)
MadHound Mar 2013 OP
jsr Mar 2013 #1
The Magistrate Mar 2013 #2
Warpy Mar 2013 #3
malaise Mar 2013 #6
Warpy Mar 2013 #11
malaise Mar 2013 #16
The Magistrate Mar 2013 #14
malaise Mar 2013 #19
Warpy Mar 2013 #20
MadHound Mar 2013 #22
KoKo Mar 2013 #93
snooper2 Mar 2013 #12
malaise Mar 2013 #4
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #5
jsr Mar 2013 #8
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #10
jsr Mar 2013 #13
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #18
jsr Mar 2013 #24
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #31
Recursion Mar 2013 #39
RZM Mar 2013 #17
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #21
RZM Mar 2013 #23
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #27
RZM Mar 2013 #37
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #44
RKP5637 Mar 2013 #57
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #60
RKP5637 Mar 2013 #84
Common Sense Party Mar 2013 #7
jsr Mar 2013 #9
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #15
RZM Mar 2013 #29
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #35
RZM Mar 2013 #40
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #47
Mosby Mar 2013 #34
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #41
Mosby Mar 2013 #55
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #58
Mosby Mar 2013 #59
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #63
Mosby Mar 2013 #77
devilgrrl Mar 2013 #79
Posteritatis Mar 2013 #53
Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #25
Taverner Mar 2013 #30
Recursion Mar 2013 #82
Recursion Mar 2013 #26
Taverner Mar 2013 #28
Mosby Mar 2013 #32
Taverner Mar 2013 #36
Mosby Mar 2013 #43
Taverner Mar 2013 #65
Octafish Mar 2013 #38
Cleita Mar 2013 #69
Octafish Mar 2013 #81
Cleita Mar 2013 #62
Mosby Mar 2013 #64
Cleita Mar 2013 #67
Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #80
Cleita Mar 2013 #83
obliviously Mar 2013 #33
rhett o rick Mar 2013 #45
Ken Burch Mar 2013 #49
liberalhistorian Mar 2013 #42
dbackjon Mar 2013 #48
Ken Burch Mar 2013 #50
liberalhistorian Mar 2013 #71
Ken Burch Mar 2013 #72
Coyotl Mar 2013 #87
dbackjon Mar 2013 #46
Cleita Mar 2013 #54
dbackjon Mar 2013 #61
Cleita Mar 2013 #66
Ken Burch Mar 2013 #75
MadHound Mar 2013 #56
Cleita Mar 2013 #51
cannabis_flower Mar 2013 #52
obliviously Mar 2013 #70
ananda Mar 2013 #68
Cleita Mar 2013 #74
tritsofme Mar 2013 #73
Marrah_G Mar 2013 #76
El Supremo Mar 2013 #78
madinmaryland Mar 2013 #86
El Supremo Mar 2013 #89
madinmaryland Mar 2013 #90
El Supremo Mar 2013 #91
madinmaryland Mar 2013 #95
bluedigger Mar 2013 #85
magic59 Mar 2013 #88
morningfog Mar 2013 #92
Overseas Mar 2013 #94
okieinpain Mar 2013 #96
0rganism Mar 2013 #97

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:07 PM

1. Precisely.

The nerve.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:07 PM

2. It Is, Sir: He Was a Good Man

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:10 PM

3. I'm sure the perception varies along with one's economic class

His death could work either way, cement the shift to the left or give the big property owners the opening they need to overthrow it.

It's something that will bear close watching over the next six months or so.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:12 PM

6. That'[s why they're run the US embassy staff today

Fear of a coup

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Response to malaise (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:15 PM

11. I thought of that yesterday when they expelled diplomats

they accused of trying to drum up support for an anti Chavez coup. I knew Chavez wasn't in good shape, rumors of his death have been rife over the last month.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #11)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:17 PM

16. I knew he was as good as dead when he went home and

when Cuba introduced term limits and succession planning a la China.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:17 PM

14. Either Way, My Friend, I Fear There Will Be Blood

Beyond even his passion for social justice, he deserves tremendous credit for the pacific character of his governance and the movement he led. This is an individual's character displayed, and cannot be counted on to persist with him gone. A restoration of rightist rule will certainly be accompanied with the full panoply of torture and murder typical of such regimes in full counter-revolutionary flood.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:19 PM

19. That is why more important than great leaders are the young people

who get involved and guarantee succession planning.
Too many men (and women) see themselves as indispensable.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:21 PM

20. I hope it won't come to that

and I know he was tremendously popular with the campesinos and working class. It's my hope that his successor will continue the reforms with popular support.

Its going to be a dangerous period for them, though.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:23 PM

22. And don't you just know that the CIA has been waiting for this moment,

 

And have plans in action as we speak to put a rightist government in place. After all, a country in Central and South America can only show up the US for so long because as everybody knows, that's our turf.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:18 PM

93. To "The Magistrate" Yes...well said and thank you for saying it.

It's a sad time...and what will come next...remains fraught with peril given the interests battling.

Thanks for your post on this...

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:15 PM

12. you knew him! cool...

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:11 PM

4. Isn't that the truth

He was a good neighbour and a friend to Jamaica.
Rest in peace brother.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:14 PM

8. Says devilgrrl

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Response to jsr (Reply #8)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #10)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:16 PM

13. Nope

I think it's a huge loss for Venezuela.

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Response to jsr (Reply #13)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #18)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:26 PM

24. And Big Oil has been looking forward to this day for years

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Response to jsr (Reply #24)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #18)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:32 PM

39. The situation, like Chavez, cannot be treated simply

This could go a lot of ways. I hope his successor continues his good reforms (which were many) and backs off from his flirts with autocracy.

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Response to devilgrrl (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:18 PM

17. You're not the everyday type of mourner, are you?

 

Are you going to express condolences or just concentrate on lashing out at nobody in particular?

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Response to RZM (Reply #17)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #21)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:25 PM

23. Has anyone expressed excitement yet?

 

You just can't wait to get to it, can you? Talk about 'pre-emptive warfare.'

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Response to RZM (Reply #23)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #27)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:31 PM

37. There's nothing to celebrate

 

Though it's amusing watching you flail around in a desperate bid to find a target for your rage.

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Response to RZM (Reply #37)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:43 PM

57. Yep, ONLY trust USA MSM, the rest are liars! Fox News, that's my News!

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #57)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #60)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:21 PM

84. I'm confused, was he or was he not the devil? I did not believe any of the

shit written about him, so I'm confused by your reply.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:13 PM

7. Amazing that Fidel outlasted Hugo. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:14 PM

9. No kidding.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #7)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:28 PM

29. LOL. And here you are already floating a conspiracy theory

 

Jesus H. You've been waiting for this moment, haven't you? You're the only person here who seems excited about this right now.

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Response to RZM (Reply #29)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #35)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:33 PM

40. Again. You're the only one partying so far

 

You even have a hat!

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Response to RZM (Reply #40)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:30 PM

34. So you think Americans murdered him?

wow.

and you have the FUCKING nerve to accuse others of "celebrating his death".

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Response to Mosby (Reply #34)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #41)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:42 PM

55. I'm ambivalent about Chavez

I think most all central and south American countries could use major labor reforms including Venezuela, frankly he did little to nothing to improve the living conditions of the poor unless returning to 1975 poverty levels is considered progress.

http://www.ruralpovertyportal.org/country/home/tags/venezuela

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Response to Mosby (Reply #55)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #58)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:46 PM

59. Why is that?

They can't vote?


Maybe Hugo should have built up his socialist party instead of turning it into a cult of personality.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #59)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #63)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:07 PM

77. We don't even know what kind of cancer he had

clearly his regime was not big on transparency.

For me that was a huge red flag.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #77)


Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:41 PM

53. I'm convinced that Fidel Castro is actually just immortal at this point.

We'll find him one day cleaning up radioactive waste with his bare hands, possibly while on fire, and shrugging at it because, hey, nothing else managed to take him out, so why worry about that?

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:26 PM

25. As I said on another thread, he was neither a messiah nor a devil.

He did some genuinely good things for his country and as far as everyone can tell, was elected fairly and democratically.

That said, I do take issues with some of his crackdowns on free speech and free press. That tarnished my image of him to a degree and detracts from his overall legacy.

But he was essentially the Latin American equivilant of Huey Long, nothing more and nothing less.

I'd frequently hear his detractors compare him with the worst dictators in recent history and claim he posed a great threat to the security of our country. That was all hyperbolic bullshit to the extreme.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:28 PM

30. Yes but even then, the "free speech" he silenced was a network calling for his overthrow

 

Not in between the lines speech either - but outright calls for his overthrow and support for the coup

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:30 PM

82. What happens next may well determine his legacy

Whether he's remembered as a Bolivar or a Castro may depend on how Venezuela adapts

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:26 PM

26. His legacy is complex

Hopefully Venezuela will keep the good and move away from the bad.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:27 PM

28. He was a great leader. Socialism worked in Venezuela - which is why the US hated him

 

I don't care much for the company he kept in terms of NK and Iran

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Response to Taverner (Reply #28)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:29 PM

32. socialism based on OIL REVENUE.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #32)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:31 PM

36. Yes, and?

 

At least Venezuela isn't pissing away their wealth like Dubai

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Response to Taverner (Reply #36)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:34 PM

43. Maybe next they could built casinos

For the benefit of the people of course.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #43)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:49 PM

65. Better than any of that money going to a corporation nt

 

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Response to Mosby (Reply #32)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:32 PM

38. Like in Alaska.

where oil revenue goes for health care, schools, food, jobs and stuff people need.

Now in the Lower 48 and Hawaii, it's just the rich...

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Response to Octafish (Reply #38)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:55 PM

69. If only we nationalized our mineral, oil, gas and lumber wealth to be

used for the common needs of the American people, we could probably do away with taxes altogether.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #69)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:20 PM

81. Absolutely great idea. The thing is, in these United States, we socialize risk and privatize reward.

Remember this, one of the wise and respected, not nearly as bad as he's made out to be, kindler, gentler machine gun hand's last acts as Prezident?

Poppy Strikes Gold

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Response to Mosby (Reply #32)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:47 PM

62. When we were taking all the Venezuelan oil back before Chavez,

we had no problem profiting from the Venezuelan oil revenue. Please hide the hypocrisy. You don't wear it well.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #62)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:49 PM

64. I didn't take anyone's oil, lol.

please don't blame me, I just post on a discussion board.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #64)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:54 PM

67. If you are an American citizen, you belong to a nation who backed

these oil corporations in raiding and plundering another country of its natural resources. You and I are just as guilty by association.

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Response to Mosby (Reply #32)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:10 PM

80. Norway also has socialism based on oil wealth

I don't see anyone calling the Norwegian government evil.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #80)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:33 PM

83. I don't think a lot of people know that.

They think of Norwegians as being cod fishermen and lumbermen.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:29 PM

33. sucks to be him

They should send him to a taxidermist like they did Lenin.

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Response to obliviously (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:34 PM

45. John is taxidermied? nm

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Response to obliviously (Reply #33)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:35 PM

49. Grow a soul.

Hugo Chavez was just a man...he wasn't a tyrant and he did nothing to deserve THAT level of hatred from you.

He was in power because the people of Venezuela wanted him there...they were never going to choose "Mitt" Capriles.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:34 PM

42. Bullshit. He was a tyrannical

dictator who desired and attempted to appoint himself ruler for life regardless of what the people thought, and he tolerated little, if any, dissension and opposition. His "standing up against US hegemony" was simply a ploy and a tool for manipulating the masses and maintaining tight control. Good riddance.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #42)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:35 PM

48. Someone gets it!

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #42)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:36 PM

50. The people of Venezuela never wanted to replace him with a conservative.

Given that they had nothing to gain from "market values" why should they have wanted that?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #50)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:59 PM

71. WTF does that have to do with anything?

They may not have wanted to replace him with a conservative, which is understandable, but they sure as shit weren't given much choice in whether or not HE would represent them, considering how he crushed any dissent and opposition.

And I have no clue WTF your other sentence has to do with anything. You know, for a site that is so attuned to voting violations and attempts to disenfranchise legitimate voters here in this country, there are too many people who seem to have no problem with a leader of another country being a dictator who rigs whatever "election" is held and crushes opposition and dissent. Amazing. I guess as long as said leader is a leftist, then that must make everything alright. Gack.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #71)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:02 PM

72. Nobody was ever "crushed" in Venezuela. Rich people CAN'T be crushed and can't be victims.

All Chavez did was refuse to back down...that's what he's denounced for in the North...for not surrendering to capital.

There was no progressive, humanistic, pro-social justice alternative to Bolivarianism in Venezuela...and I doubt there ever will be. U.S. political, military, and economic pressure makes such things impossible.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #42)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:55 PM

87. Do you call him a dictator because he was a progressive leftist?

You missed the Political Science 101 lesson where they tell you democracies have elected officials and dictators are people who run undemocratic governments.
But, hey, don't let your ignorance get in the way of dancing on graves

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:35 PM

46. Not a shame at all

Murderous thug dictator. Left or right, still a thug

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #46)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:42 PM

54. Stop right now with the Big Lie.

Dictators are not elected. Hugo Chavez was elected President for four terms in elections that were less corrupt and more transparent than ours have been lately.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #54)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:47 PM

61. Stalin was elected

Easy to rig elections when you have total power.


You have no clue...

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #61)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:52 PM

66. But that's the point. The elections weren't rigged like they are

in places like the Soviet Union and North Korea. Their elections are more honest than ours.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/venezuela-elections_b_1939944.html

Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" a few weeks ago: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."


So are you calling President Jimmy Carter a liar? Amazing how all those rw think tank lying hit pieces find their way onto the pages of DU.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #61)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:05 PM

75. Chavez had multi party elections...and victories for the opposition were always respected

while he was in power. If that hadn't been the case, "Mitt" Capriles would have been in Miami(or rotting in a jungle gulag...oh sorry, those never existed under Chavez)rather than running a state government and campaigning against Chavez and for the restoration of the old order.

Chavez had flaws, but its insane to liken him to Stalin. You're better than that.

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Response to dbackjon (Reply #46)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:42 PM

56. How many people did he murder?

 

Frankly, I'm willing to bet that more Obama and his drones have killed more innocents that Chavez.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:40 PM

51. Yes, but according to some he was an evil dictator.

He was a strong man in the South American tradition, but he stood up to foreign oil interests including ours, and tried to make Venezuelan society more equal and more middle class, not a bad thing in IMHO.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:41 PM

52. I guess now...

we don't have Hugo Chavez to kick around anymore. God Bless him and may he rest in peace.

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Response to cannabis_flower (Reply #52)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:57 PM

70. not neccisarily

if we taxidermied him we could kick him around for years to come.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 05:54 PM

68. A very sad day for the poor and vulnerable in Venezuela ...

... and for those of us who look to leaders like Chavez as role models
in a time when most leaders work as corporate-fascist enablers.

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Response to ananda (Reply #68)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:03 PM

74. I hope he has a successor who can continue his policies of raising

the poorest classes to more middle class status. If I were that successor, I would probably also bring that rich upper class down to middle class level with some really progressive tax structure.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:02 PM

73. Good riddance.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:07 PM

76. He and the people of venezuela helped to heat my home

And I am grateful.

I'm sure there is much sadness in Venezuela tonight.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 06:09 PM

78. Gee. 60 years to the day that Stalin died.

Some kind of socialist plot!

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #78)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:50 PM

86. Thank god you didn't change your avatar to a picture of Chavez.


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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #86)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:27 PM

89. But I know you've considered changing yours to one of Fidel!

You are on my Commie List! Along with those that have this one:

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #89)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:35 PM

90. Unfortunately, they do not have a Roberto Clemente or a Honus Wagner

avatar.

Oh FFS! I would take a Bill Mazeroski avatar!



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Response to madinmaryland (Reply #90)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:03 PM

91. I'll make you one for big $$$s!

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Response to El Supremo (Reply #91)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:13 PM

95. Huh? I gave you a Valentine's Heart on DU.



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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 07:43 PM

85. In another, more accurate way, it's an opportunity for the people of Venezuela.

I don't think many leaders can maintain their positive momentum over such a long period of time. There are probably exceptions, but I think Chavez had pretty much outlived his usefulness to his people. Now they can make a fresh start with renewed energy.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 08:00 PM

88. In a way, its a damned shame

 

He was one of the last shields against total fascist control.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:05 PM

92. It is a sad day. Safe passage Chavez.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 09:24 PM

94. It's a great shame. I hope his VP Maduro can carry on his legacy.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Mar 7, 2013, 01:12 AM

96. this is one of the funniest post

I've seen on du yet.

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Response to MadHound (Original post)

Thu Mar 7, 2013, 01:52 AM

97. Now we will see how well Venezuela's revolution stands on its own

without Chavez' charisma and spirit to invigorate it.

Hugo Chavez, whatever his vices, gave disadvantaged Venezuelans a voice. Let us see if they choose to keep it.

VP Maduro seems to be cut from similar cloth, but he has formidably big shoes to fill. I expect he'll easily win the upcoming election; the ones that follow will be increasingly difficult.

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