HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Hey Pres. Obama, How abou...

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:22 AM

 

Hey Pres. Obama, How about the bright young US students and the disenfranchised US STEM workers?!!!

How about ending your policies that are undermining our interests??!!!

During Barack Obama's inaugural address, he said,

"Our journey is not complete until we find a better way to welcome the striving, hopeful immigrants who still see America as a land of opportunity; until bright young students and engineers are enlisted in our workforce rather than expelled from our country."

How about the US STEM workers who have been EXPELLED FROM THE WORKFORCE because of the deluge of cheap, entry level workers from the third world?

How about the 50% of recent college grads who cannot find a job because of the deluge of cheap, entry level workers from the third world?

HOW ABOUT US???!!!

The Democratic Party currently has two core constituencies, with competing interests. The first, immigrant workers, whose interests are being championed by President Obama and the Democratic Party. The second, unemployed and underemployed Americans whose interests are being undermined and ignored by President Obama and the Democratic Party!

60 replies, 2950 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 60 replies Author Time Post
Reply Hey Pres. Obama, How about the bright young US students and the disenfranchised US STEM workers?!!! (Original post)
twins.fan Jan 2013 OP
Robb Jan 2013 #1
twins.fan Jan 2013 #4
MADem Jan 2013 #2
Fumesucker Jan 2013 #22
MADem Jan 2013 #28
twins.fan Jan 2013 #33
MADem Jan 2013 #40
99Forever Jan 2013 #3
twins.fan Jan 2013 #6
99Forever Jan 2013 #9
twins.fan Jan 2013 #14
99Forever Jan 2013 #16
twins.fan Jan 2013 #17
pampango Jan 2013 #11
twins.fan Jan 2013 #15
pampango Jan 2013 #20
99Forever Jan 2013 #18
pampango Jan 2013 #23
99Forever Jan 2013 #29
twins.fan Jan 2013 #30
pampango Jan 2013 #34
twins.fan Jan 2013 #36
pampango Jan 2013 #37
twins.fan Jan 2013 #43
pampango Jan 2013 #46
twins.fan Jan 2013 #47
pampango Jan 2013 #50
twins.fan Jan 2013 #57
pampango Jan 2013 #58
twins.fan Jan 2013 #60
davidn3600 Jan 2013 #49
pampango Jan 2013 #51
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #52
leveymg Jan 2013 #5
alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #7
JoePhilly Jan 2013 #12
twins.fan Jan 2013 #19
Jeff In Milwaukee Jan 2013 #27
twins.fan Jan 2013 #31
La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2013 #41
MADem Jan 2013 #42
twins.fan Jan 2013 #8
leveymg Jan 2013 #21
twins.fan Jan 2013 #24
leveymg Jan 2013 #32
twins.fan Jan 2013 #35
leveymg Jan 2013 #38
twins.fan Jan 2013 #45
leveymg Jan 2013 #48
WilmywoodNCparalegal Jan 2013 #55
twins.fan Jan 2013 #56
LiberalEsto Jan 2013 #10
twins.fan Jan 2013 #13
Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #25
countingbluecars Jan 2013 #26
OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #39
twins.fan Jan 2013 #44
Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #53
lunasun Jan 2013 #54
twins.fan Jan 2013 #59

Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:25 AM

1. Zero-sum thinking. Switch to the rising tide metaphor.

How about a situation where both groups can benefit, instead of being pitted against one another?

It's not the "immigrant workers" who are choosing to slash wages and benefits. Why blame labor?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Robb (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:30 AM

4. It was President Obama who brought up the issue in his inaugural address.

 

I think that he brought it up. He deserves an answer!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:25 AM

2. You really should direct your questions to Congress. King Barack can't issue a decree to solve the

problem, you know.

You do know that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:02 AM

22. We all know that Congress did not write King Barack's inaugural speech n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Fumesucker (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:19 AM

28. Apparently some of us don't know that only Congress can make law, though...

The President can exhort, but the crafting and passing of law is down to Congress.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MADem (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:30 AM

33. Actually, I already had that figured out, but ...

 

It was Barack Obama who brought it up in his inaugural address. Since he brought it up, I thought that he deserved an answer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:37 AM

40. He brought it up as a question, an exhortation.

He is the Chief Executive--he executes the will of We, The People as expressed through our elected legislature.

He's not a King. If we want law, we have to look to Congress to craft it; only then can POTUS implement it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:28 AM

3. The poor and unemployed..

... are invisible if we are native born, I guess. America has no conscience anymore.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99Forever (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:31 AM

6. Both parties are beholden to corporate interests. BOTH PARTIES!!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:39 AM

9. Yes, did I say otherwise?

Why are you angry at me? I can't do anymore about it than you can.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99Forever (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:48 AM

14. I am not angry at you! I thought that I was agreeing with you.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:52 AM

16. Sorry then...

... I misinterpreted the caps as shouting at me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99Forever (Reply #16)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:54 AM

17. Thanks for letting me know! Otherwise I would have not known. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:40 AM

11. One party is pro-immigrant, pro-diversity. The other is pro-white, 'we want our country back' from

minorities and immigrants.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:50 AM

15. I don't see it that way. I see both parties perpetuating a partisan soap opera, while ...

 

the leaders of both parties are quietly satisfying the corporate interests behind the scenes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #15)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:58 AM

20. You are welcome to your beliefs that Democrats are not sincerely pro-immigrant and pro-diversity and

are really just participants in a "partisan soap opera" and that apparently racist, nativist teabaggers are really just winking and pretending in order to play the 'bad guys' the same game.

I don't agree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:56 AM

18. So...

... are you saying that because even though I'm poor, unemployed, and on the verge of desperation, I shouldn't look to the Democratic Party to actually address my situation because I happen to be white?

Hmmmm.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 99Forever (Reply #18)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:06 AM

23. I'm sure you don't look for help BECAUSE you are WHITE American. Teabaggers do have that expectation

Canada, European countries, Australia and all progressive countries help all their citizens in ways that the US will not even consider. And they do this despite the fact that they have higher levels of immigration and tailor their immigration laws to attract highly-educated, highly-skilled immigrants. We don't have to go after immigrants in order to help our own citizens.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:20 AM

29. Thanks...

... for the non-answer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:21 AM

30. Recipients of H-1B visas are not only NOT "highly skilled," 94% are not even "Fully Competent."

 

In a 2011 report for Congress, the GAO concluded that a mere 6% of H-1B visas are "Fully Competent" workers with 54% of H-1B visa recipients being "Entry Level" workers. In fact, many disenfranchised US STEM workers were forced to train their H-1B visa replacement in order to receive a severance package. The project of training their H-1B visa replacement proved to be the last project for many disenfranchised US STEM workers.

The H-1B visa is here to reduce labor costs, not to import highly skilled workers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:39 AM

34. We may not disagree that much. I took the OP as addressing real immigrants and college graduates

from other countries who want to become US citizens in the long run. People who really want to immigrate to the US and become Americans are welcome. As legal permanent residents and later citizens they are covered by the same labor protections as the rest of us.

I don't like H-1B visas because they are temporary in nature and seem subject to abuse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #34)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:45 AM

36. It was YOU who introduced the race card though!

 

In fact, it is Americans of ALL ETHNICITIES whose careers are being destroyed, white, african american, latin, asian, ALL ETHNICITIES! You however seem to have less concern when the career of white Americans are being destroyed.

But your game is the game being played by both political parties, cloaking your support for corporate interests and your lack of concern with the plight of US workers, with a supposed interest in immigrant workers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #36)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:05 AM

37. I said teabaggers are anti-diversity, pro-white, "we want our country back" types. Do you disagree?

I also said that Democrats are much more pro-diversity and pro-immigrant. Do you disagree? If you consider pointing out teabagger racism or Democratic support for diversity as 'playing the race card' so be it.

I have not accused you of "cloaking your support" for teabagger, nativist interests so I would appreciate a similar courtesy from you with respect to corporate interests. Just because I don't adopt a "blame our problems on immigrants" solution to the "plight of US workers" doesn't mean I don't agree with you that we have major problems. I simply believe that there are many examples of progressive countries that have stronger unions, healthier middle classes and much better distributions of income and they accomplish this while embracing immigration rather than fearing it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #37)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:50 AM

43. Personally, I pay little attention the the tea party. They are stupid.

 

In my opinion, the tea party just sucks oxygen out of the air. Talking about birth certificates and the rest of the crazy agenda is just a waste of my time. It feeds the narrative of the President. Like you, you pull that crap out of the air for no reason.

However, I am intimately involved with the destruction of the careers of US STEM workers. I am seeing it first hand. Whether you agree with me or not has nothing to do with the progress of that destruction. It is occurring and your sticking your head in the sand ignoring it will not stop it. And my trying to convince you of its existence is a waste of my time. You are too busy calling everyone who disagrees with you teabaggers. In fact your tactics are the tactics of the teabagger.

The strategy that you employ is typical of the strategy of those who benefit from these work visas. That strategy is to mock, taunt, and smear US STEM workers, whether they are black, white, brown or yellow, but especially if they are white. The people who benefit from the fraud first insult the US STEM worker by claiming that we are not qualified, that we are stupid. If the US STEM worker doesn't shut up and accept our fate, the mocking continues. We are called racists and teabaggers and fat and lazy and whatever strikes your fancy.

But the fact is that there is NO SHORTAGE OF US STEM WORKERS! The careers of US STEM workers are being decimated!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #43)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:29 AM

46. You'll have to help me here. Where did I "mock, taunt, and smear US STEM workers"?

I agreed with you that we have major problems - and not just in the STEM industry.

I support immigration because I think it is (and always has been) good for the country; not because US STEM workers (or US farm workers, construction workers, etc.) are not qualified. I pointed out that progressive countries do not restrict immigration to solve their employment problems. They provide cheap college educations without massive student loans. They orient their industries to using the STEM workers that their colleges produce. They have strong unions so that companies do not pit one group of workers against another.

You seem to reject all of that and insist that THE ONLY way to deal with the decimation of US STEM workers is to take it out on immigrants. If you have other policy recommendations, I have missed them and I apologize.

The strategy that you employ is typical of the strategy of those who benefit from these work visas. - And the strategy you employ is typical of those who oppose all immigration for all the wrong reasons. At least neither of us is questioning the motivation of the other - just pointing out the 'strange bedfellows' aspect of a liberal immigration policy.

Everyone who opposes immigration is not a racist teabagger but the latter certainly do oppose it. Everyone who supports immigration is not a corporatist though the most of the latter certainly do support it.

The country's most restrictive immigration laws were enacted in 1921 and 1924 by conservative republican congresses and signed by republican presidents (Harding in 1921 and Coolidge in 1924). They, of course, accomplished nothing for the American worker and our income inequality had set new records by 1929 (since surpassed).

The country's most liberal immigration law as enacted by a Democratic congress in 1965 (with "most of the no votes were from the southern belt") and signed by LBJ.

You may, of course, focus on restricting immigration to solve the problems of the US STEM worker, but don't adopt the attitude that no good Democrat could possibly disagree with you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #46)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:45 AM

47. Help you? Why do I have to help you?

 

I am not concerned about any LBJ immigration law in 1965, whether there were or were not any votes from the South.

My comments are about the false logic of a concocted shortage of US STEM workers. That is the premise of all these work visas, that there are not enough workers to do the jobs.

As far as your insults, do you remember the part of the mocking diatribe entitled "I'm sure you don't look for help BECAUSE you are WHITE American. Teabaggers do have that expectation"

Today the US has more immigration than the rest of the planet COMBINED!

You definitely have a problem with people who are WHITE or from the South! As I said, the job destruction is happening to other ethnicities too and in other regions too. So perhaps you may want to think my comments over.

As far as your historical reciting past immigration laws, they have little relevance for today.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #47)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:17 PM

50. History is irrelevant? If that is how you approach issues, fine.

"I'm sure you don't look for help BECAUSE you are WHITE American. Teabaggers do have that expectation." - Who said that was meant in a mocking manner? It simply means that I expect that a poster at DU is not a racist nativist and that teabaggers most often fit that description. I don't think that any DUer expects help because they are white. I would not say the same thing about a member of the republican base.

You definitely have a problem with people who are WHITE or from the South! - I don't have a problem with whites or Southerners. I certainly have a problem with conservatives who think they are special because they are white regardless of what part of the country they come from. The link to Southern opposition to liberalization of our immigration law in 1965 simply shows that conservatives opposed this liberalization since we all know what type of politicians were elected from the South back in those days.

Today the US has more immigration than the rest of the planet COMBINED! -

The foreign-born population of the US is 12.2%. More progressive countries have more immigrants than the US.
Canada - 18.9%
Australia - 23.6%
Germany - 12.9%
Sweden - 12.2%

http://www.oecd.org/migration/internationalmigrationpoliciesanddata/37835877.pdf

The US has certainly been immigrant-friendly historically (if that is relevant), but many progressive countries are much more immigrant-friendly today than we are. And their workers are better off than ours are.

That said, I realize that statistics - like history itself - can be thought of as irrelevant if one has figured out who the real
enemy is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #50)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:52 PM

57. You are for immigration, fine, I am too. You want smear WHITE people, fine, but I don't ...

 

You want to stereotype southerners, that is fine too. I happen to like southern people, whether they are conservatives, or liberals like me, or bigots who stereotype whites and southerners.

But all of your smears, all of your stereotypes, are not relevant to the premise of the H-1B visa and all of the other work visas that are used to replace US workers with cheap third world workers. There is simply no shortage of US STEM workers. These work visas are here to reduce labor costs, to make more money for Bill Gates, Larry Page, Larry Ellison, etc by replacing US STEM workers with cheap workers from India and Communist China.

I am not against immigration, I am for immigration. It is just the magnitude that concerns me. Other countries have their own reasons for increasing immigration, reasons that may or may not apply to the US. Just because Afganistan engages in a certain behavior, does not necessarily mean that the US should. Just because Canada or Australia engages in heavy immigration, doesn't mean that the US should. For one reason, their population is significantly less than the US.

Why is it that people can justify irrational behavior because some other country engages in that behavior? Why is it that some people object to someone else's opinion because they may or may not be white, or southern. What does that have to do with the issue at hand?

The fact is that these work visas are being used to reduce labor costs and in the process, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF US STEM WORKERS are losing their jobs. Maybe the plight of disenfranchised white STEM workers doesn't concern you or the plight of disenfranchised southern US STEM workers does not concern you, but african american, latino, asian US STEM workers are becoming disenfranchised US STEM workers are losing their jobs too. Disenfranchised STEM workers are from all over the country are losing their jobs too, not just people from the south.

With all due respect, you should drop your aversion to whites and drop your aversion to southerns too!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #57)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:43 PM

58. If repeating the meme that I hate white people and Southerners makes this easier for you, fine.

(And I would not want you to see my birth certificate, if you think I have such prejudices. Of course, I guess you could then accuse me of a form of self-loathing.)

But all of your smears, all of your stereotypes, are not relevant to the premise of the H-1B visa and all of the other work visas that are used to replace US workers... - I already said I don't like those temporary work visas. If you feel the need to continue to accuse me in this regard then your reading comprehension needs some work.

So you are for immigration but consider Canada and Australia (and Germany and Sweden?) as 'irrational' for embracing immigration. (And the fact that these countries are smaller could just as easily have motivated them to be even more concerned and restrictive about immigration than a big country like the US, if they feared immigration as you do.)

Immigrants each year to the US represent about 0.3% of our population. In Canada immigrants total about 0.8% of their population each year. In Australia the figure is 0.7%. Would you accept these higher immigration rates if we also had progressive labor policies and strong safety nets like Canadians and Australians. Or do you just not want such high rates of immigration regardless?

Our immigration is already much more restrictive than in many progressive countries, but does not seem to have benefited our working class. Even more restrictive immigration laws are unlikely to make it any better. Restrictive immigration didn't work in the US when the republicans tried it in the 1920's and progressive countries know that it does not work today. The answer must lie elsewhere.

If you consider progressive countries 'irrational' for their policies, you are entitled to your opinion. There may not be much we can learn about progressive government from Afghanistan but I expect we might learn a thing or two from Germany, Sweden or Canada. Unless you think that not only are history and statistics irrelevant to the discussion, but the reality of the policies followed by progressive governments in the world today, as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #58)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 03:05 PM

60. It is your words that I read. Maybe you misspoke.

 

The issue about Germany's immigration program is not relevant to the original topic of the US workers having their careers ruined.

I am not interested in a long give and take about Germany's immigration program. And just because Germany has an immigration policy, doesn't mean that we should adopt the same policy.

However, I indeed do support immigration. In fact, I support truly the immigration of truly "highly skilled" workers. But these work visas are being used to import entry level workers that replace US workers in order to reduce corporate labor costs. That kind of immigration is what I oppose!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #11)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:12 PM

49. Can't we have a party that is anti-racist instead of pro-diversity?

Pro-diversity to me means you accept that we are still racist, but we will put on a show that makes it seem like we aren't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to davidn3600 (Reply #49)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:24 PM

51. That's an interesting take. I have never thought of being pro-diversity as not being anti-racist.

Most will accept that we (meaning society at large) are still racist; not to the degree of several decades ago, but it is difficult to argue that racism does not still exist. I look at being pro-diversity as a tool to further combat remaining racism rather than as an acknowledgement of its continued existence.

Thanks for the interesting perspective.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:29 PM

52. And you came here to deliver that message?

I don't see you being here very long.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:30 AM

5. Cheap labor? 1) H-1B workers are paid prevailing wage; 2) Unemployment among STEM grads is <5%

Unemployment in STEM fields is still well below the general population and slightly below college graduates in general. That “record” unemployment for chemists, for example, was 4.6 percent, compared with overall U.S. unemployment at that time of 8.8 percent.


Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/12/22/3742688/more-stem-graduates-may-not-equal.html#storylink=cpy

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leveymg (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:33 AM

7. Don't disturb the morning hate session

This one has the benefit of both clipping Obama and shitting all over immigrants, which makes it awesome.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:45 AM

12. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:58 AM

19. I just don't see how anyone can read hate into someone rationally observing the world around them.

 

Since you cannot rationally evaluate the world around disenfranchised US STEM workers, it is you sir, who is guilty of hate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:17 AM

27. I like your defintion of "rationality"

It appears that the only rational people are those who agree with you, and the poster who provided hard statistics to prove that your point is over-stated is being irrational.

Move it along, sonny.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #27)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:26 AM

31. The accusation of "hate" was introduced by someone who is unaware of the world around ...

 

the disenfranchised US STEM worker. "Hate" is a strong word, that should not be used lightly. But the person who introduced the word to the conversation, had no basis for understanding the complaint other than a couple of sentences.

My view is that someone who introduces that accusation with such shallow evidence is actually guilty of hate himself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:41 AM

42. WELL DONE. You have identified a classic "divide two groups" argument--we've seen a lot of 'em here

lately.

The next question is "What would be the motive of a person who is shopping this kind of slop?"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leveymg (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:35 AM

8. The only way that unemployment can be measured at 4.6% for chemists is to ignore ...

 

the hundreds of thousands of US STEM workers who have had to abandon their careers and ignore the hundreds of thousands of recent college grads who have yet to find full time employment and who never will find full time employment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:59 AM

21. What is the source for those three assertions?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leveymg (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:11 AM

24. I don't have the source right at hand.

 

The source of 50% of recent college grads being unable to find employment has been broadcast all over the news during the past several years. The story about disenfranchised US STEM workers being unable to find jobs is a well known fact supported by news of rampant and brazen age discrimination in Silicon Valley and the rest of the country.

The case for recent college grads being unable to find jobs in the future is speculation on my part because there is not one political party, Democratic or Republican, who is doing a thing about finding jobs for recent college grads. Both parties are focused on flooding the workplace with workers on all sorts of work visas. Plus, now they want more work visas!

The narrative being pushed by the politicians of both parties is that there is only 85,000 H-1B visas being printed up each year, when in fact the true number of H-1B visas is around 150,000. That does not include the 100,000 OPT visas, or the 75,000 L1 visas, or the hundreds of thousands of B1 visas that are being improperly used to bring workers into this country. The true number of work visas being granted EACH YEAR that undermines the jobs of US STEM workers and recent college grads is somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000, EACH YEAR.

The careers of US STEM workers is being devastated, but nary a politician cares, neither Republican nor Democrat.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:30 AM

32. How many US workers do you think are employed in the US Information sector?

There are more than 4 million.

What is the current unemployment rate in that sector?

It is about 4 percent.

Then, why do you think that such a relatively small group of foreign workers within the whole Infromation sector leads to 50% unemployment among recent US STEM grads (which includes several other sectors, such as bio, chemistry, other engineering fields, etc.)?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leveymg (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:39 AM

35. It is NOT a small number of workers!

 

Even though the politicians claim that there are only 85,000 H-1B visas granted each year, 150,000 are printed up. That does not include the 100,000 OPT visas, or the 75,000 L1 visas or the hundreds of thousands of B1 visas that are improperly used. The correct number of work visas granted to STEM workers is somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000 EACH YEAR, EVERY YEAR.

300,000 to 500,000 were being granted even in the years when the economy was in the tank. The careers of hundreds of thousands of US STEM workers, white, african american, latin, asian, all ethnicities ARE BEING DESTROYED!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:07 AM

38. It's about 10-12%, including all nonimmigrant classes, including short term B-1

visitors for business who typically are not allowed value-added employment. L-1s work for multinationals on the companies own projects, not outsourcing, so they do not necessarily displace US workers. Even H-1B workers add value to US goods and services, some of which are exported, and this adds to the bottom-line of the companies and in some cases their third-party clients. This allows these companies to compete with other global firms and continue employing US workers within the same companies.

The 10-12% figure is for Information sector. The overall US Service economy employs 100 million workers, 500,000 workers amount to about half a percent overall.

How does this, net, add up to foreign workers creating a 50% unemployment rate for STEM grads or the destruction of hundreds of thousands of US jobs?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leveymg (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:05 AM

45. As bad as H-1B visas are, OPTs, L1s, and B1s are worse.

 

For H-1B visas, there is at least a prevailing wage requirement, but the requirement is so badly abused that the prevailing wage requirement has no value. H-1B visa recipients are paid at imaginary prevailing wages.

B1 visa recipients and L1 visa recipients are paid at wages of the home country. So Indian programmers are paid wages typical for Indian workers, for Indian programmers, they are paid $7/hour.

OPT (Optional Practical Training) visas are visas for "trainees." OPT visa recipients have no requirement for prevailing wage. So who does corporate America hire? A US worker of someone here on an OPT visa who has no access to US labor laws?

Together all visas amount to about 300K to 500K workers each year, every year. The careers of US workers are being DESTROYED!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #45)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:49 AM

48. I disagree on what you say about prevailing wage having "no value"

We can argue about that at some other time. B-1s are short term business visitors who normally aren't supposed to be working in the US (adding value), so their salaries are really irrelevant. L-1s are exempt from prevailing wage requirements by WTO rules. The number of Indian L-1s has declined by about 60 percent from a few years ago.

OPT (Optional Practical Training) benefits US universities by helping to attract foreign student enrollment. All other major countries also allow OPT to some extent under the same terms. Since OPT is for students, they don't receive full professional wages - like other student interns.

How are they destroying US worker careers?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #35)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:09 PM

55. Several wrong facts in your post

First of all, your H-1B numbers are wrong. USCIS states: "The H-1B visa has an annual numerical limit "cap" of 65,000 visas each fiscal year. The first 20,000 petitions filed on behalf of beneficiaries with a U.S. master’s degree or higher are exempt from the cap. Additionally, H-1B workers who are petitioned for or employed at an institution of higher education or its affiliated or related nonprofit entities or a nonprofit research organization, or a government research organization are not subject to this numerical cap." (Source: www.uscis.gov)

These H-1Bs are only for new petitions. The other numbers you cite are not for new H-1B visas. They are for extensions of status and change of employer (while maintaining H-1B status) petitions. The law allows a maximum stay of 6 years in H-1B status. Furthermore, if certain steps toward legal permanent residence have been met, there are further 7th, 8th and 9th year extensions that can be obtained. These extensions and changes of employer petitions are allowed by law and are not counted against the cap. The cap applies only to those who are seeking the H-1B for the first time. Also, the H-1B category includes fashion models, by the way.

OPT is not a visa. OPT is employment authorization for foreign students who are enrolled at U.S. schools in F-1 status (student visa). There are different types of employment authorization for F-1 students. CPT - curricular practical training - is permission to do an internship outside the school in the field of study, up to a determined period of time (1 year usually). For instance, a chemistry student who is interning with a chemical manufacturer would be allowed to get paid for her work as an intern under CPT.

OPT is for near-graduation to post-graduation temporary employment, usually in the field of study. It allows the F-1 student to work and get paid, although different taxation rules apply. Some F-1 students in OPT status can change their status to H-1B if they meet the requirements and the employer petitions on their behalf.

L-1 visas cannot be given to anyone. They are known as intracompany transfer visas because there are very specific rules on the petitioner (employer). First off, the petitioner must be the parent or wholly owned subsidiary or branch or affiliate of the foreign employer. The employee must have worked for the foreign employer for a specific amount of time in order to qualify (one continuous year within the past three years).

The L visa is divided into two distinct categories, each with its own specific eligibility criteria. The L-1A is reserved for managers and executives. In the past, the definitions of manager and executive were a bit looser. Today, the definitions are clearer and it has become more difficult to prove managerial functions. L-1As are allowed to remain in the U.S. up to 7 years and they can seek permanent residence (skipping step 1 in the process, the dreaded PERM labor certification).

L-1Bs are specialized knowledge workers. This category has a lot more room for fraud and misrepresentation than all other visas you mentioned. Why? Well, for starters there is no requirement for a prevailing wage or even for compensation of any kind. There is no requirement for education (for an H-1B the person must possess at least a U.S. bachelor's degree or foreign equivalent as evaluated by an independent agency). The only requirement is 'specialized knowledge' which has been defined rather loosely in the past and which is now much more narrowly defined.

The B visa is a visitor visa that can be used for those from countries that are not part of the visa waiver accords and/or by those who need to remain in the U.S. for very specific reasons. Some of these include business reasons. For instance, an executive of the foreign branch of a U.S. company needs to attend strategy meetings that will last several months. Or she will need to be involved in training, negotiating contracts, consulting with associates, traveling to a convention or meeting or symposium, etc.

B visa applicants must prove they have sufficient ties to their home countries and that they have evidence of the purpose of the trip.

Now, if someone wants to obtain one of these visas with the intent to commit visa fraud, then the problem is not with the visas, but with the person's criminal intent.

Lastly, some dependents of visa holders are allowed to work legally. These include dependents of L visa holders, some E visa holders, J visa holders, NATO visa holders, etc. Domestic employees of B-1 visa holders are also allowed to apply for employment authorization, as are refugees, asylees, those who are given stays of deportation, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WilmywoodNCparalegal (Reply #55)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 01:22 PM

56. Every aspect of these work visas is totally consumed with fraud.

 

The net result is that there is no shortage of US STEM workers. and there are somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000 foreign workers that enter this country and displace US STEM workers. Plus there is a very lucrative law practice that facilitates this process.

As I have said before, in 2011 the GAO completed a report for Congress and found that a mere 6% of H-1B visa recipients are "Fully Competent" workers with 54% of recipients of H-1B visas being "Entry Level" workers. In fact many disenfranchised US STEM workers had to train their H-1B visa replacements as a requirement for receiving a severance package.

Members of the AILA (American Immigration Lawyers Association) have made a very lucrative living importing workers that replace US workers. The practice is so lucrative that members of the AILA have seminars and workshops in which they train their corporate clients on legal maneuvers that the corporate clients can do in order to exclude US workers from employment consideration. Such a workshop is highlighted in the following video:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:39 AM

10. What does STEM mean? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 08:46 AM

13. (S)cience (T)echnology (E)ngineering (M)athematics

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:11 AM

25. K&R They/we do not exist, dontcha know?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 09:17 AM

26. Looks like things are getting better.

Interesting article with sidenote.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/credit/story/2012-05-21/more-jobs-for-college-grads/55107174/1


What’s in demand?
According to a survey by CareerBuilder.com, business tops the list of the most in-demand college majors for employers, with technical majors following closely behind.

Business: 39%
Computer and information sciences: 24%
Engineering: 23%
Math and statistics: 13%
Health professions and related clinical sciences: 13%
Communications technologies: 12%
Liberal arts and sciences: 9%

Source: CareerBuilder.com

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:18 AM

39. Sounds like you might fit in better with the GOP Tea-Nazis because....

....that's the sort of ranting bs they like to discuss ad nauseum.

Oh, by the way, try finding a job at the age of 55 or older once you become unemployed. I've been in that situation for the last 4 years, but I continue to support the President because I know for a fact he's not the problem. Try looking closely at the House of Representatives controlled by the GOP Tea-Nazis who have fought the President on ALL issues to include earned benefit programs, jobs, healthcare, taxes, budget cuts, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #39)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 10:56 AM

44. I too am unemployed. I too am over 55.

 

I share your disgust with the Republican House.

I am a lifelong Democrat, having voted for Democrats exclusively with one or two exceptions for four decades.

Tea Nazi? What in the hell is that? It is a distraction. It is a distraction to divert attention from a legitimate observation.

I am just saying that the Democratic Party has two core constituencies that have conflicting interests. If you don't agree with me, that is fine. But just think about my comments.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Reply #44)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:39 PM

53. Viewed from the extremes

that would appear to be the case...the extremes rarely represent the truth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to twins.fan (Original post)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:58 PM

54. How about the 50% of recent college grads who cannot find a job because of the deluge ...HUH?

I do not think the recent grad = the disenfranchised US STEM workers

Seems like most STEM areas have employment for those with CURRENT-qualifications.
However , If you do not keep up on training and current certs needed well yes you will become disenfranchised.
Grads will often work for well below what some seasoned H1B will take simply because they do not have experience.
I think it is mostly older workers who did not keep up or wouldn't train unless on company time.

Many of these positions could find a way to be done remotely in the future anyway if we don't step up as a nation and provide education not school as a profit maker. Corps will move on without the US disenfranchised one way or another

An historic report linking student interest in STEM education with STEM job opportunities is released Thursday, January 14, 2013. The new report — Where are the STEM Students? What are their Career Interests? Where are the STEM Jobs? — identifies the STEM interests of more than one million U.S. high school students interested in pursuing STEM careers, and links them to increasing demand for over 16 million STEM jobs by 2018

. The report is also designed to motivate students interested in STEM careers by providing a breakdown of “hot” STEM jobs, salary figures, and a projection of the future STEM job market.

“STEM jobs are among the highest paying and fastest growing in the United States, we must know where the jobs are, and excite and encourage students to pursue STEM degrees and careers, armed with skill sets to fill and grow where the jobs are.”
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/1/prweb10322069.htm

Really ? I think so but then I am not a hater looking for a muddle of statistics to satisfy my slant or bummed because I did the same thing for 10 years and darn it progress shouldn't make me change! Sorry but that is who I have seen spout this stuff and maybe I am wrong but new students in STEM at 50% unemployed - really?
Also hate the student overseas who sees an opportunity to be filled and studies and gets certs to qualify? Really? That is the American Way? Obama can not talk of immigrants -esp. high qualified ones? Really?
If anything then blame the corps on this soil that hire and would not give a dime or time to re- ed imo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lunasun (Reply #54)

Tue Jan 22, 2013, 02:49 PM

59. Most people don't object to TRULY highly skilled workers, but do object to REPLACEMENT workers

 

According to a 2011 GAO study, the majority of H-1B visa recipients are "Entry Level" workers. In fact the GAO says that 54% of H-1B visa recipients are "Entry Level" workers.

In fact a "highly skilled" worker who has an H-1B visa is actually quite rare. The GAO claims that only 6% of the H-1B visa recipients are even "Fully Competent," which is a much lower standard than "highly skilled."

If you want to use the H-1B visa to import "highly skilled" workers it is time to change the population of H-1B visa recipients and import TRULY "highly skilled" workers.

The problem is that corporate America proposes visas for "highly skilled" workers and then uses the visa for REPLACEMENT workers, a classic bait and switch.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread