HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » I no longer use antidepre...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:18 AM

I no longer use antidepressants.


I very much doubt I ever will again.

Wrestling with my dark feelings made them worse. I have come to the conclusion that, for me, I do not suffer from depression but benefit from seriousness. I do not have a sick mind, but a mind that wishes to take things seriously.

I have benefitted enormously from allowing myself to accept emotional pain, sometimes long term, and let it sink into me and alter my personality, rather than wrangle with it in the hope that I can maintain a youthful outlook. I no longer want a youthful outlook. I want MY outlook, and I no longer believe that sadness is an illness, not even if it lasts for years.

In 2012 I learned to accept that the world around me can be dark and terrible but that does not mean that it is off-kilter, upset or out of balance at all and in fact is functioning perfectly normally.

The result of all this is that for the first time in years, particularly over the past few months, I have been able to accept an increasingly giving world, have stopped taking the love of my friends for granted and have been rewarded with acts of forgiveness and kindness (that in fact were always there but I had been ignoring them through a strong desire to influence them and bring them about myself), acts I had long since stopped paying any attention to because I had fallen into the habit of believing that feelings were inherently suspect.

I have thrown away the desire for happiness, and finally it has reappeared.

So, in a slightly counter-intuitive sense, the Mayans were right.

112 replies, 11204 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 112 replies Author Time Post
Reply I no longer use antidepressants. (Original post)
sibelian Dec 2012 OP
enough Dec 2012 #1
sibelian Dec 2012 #9
enough Dec 2012 #12
tama Dec 2012 #2
secondwind Dec 2012 #3
sibelian Dec 2012 #11
Squinch Dec 2012 #4
sibelian Dec 2012 #52
Susieville Dec 2012 #5
sibelian Dec 2012 #15
DianeG5385 Dec 2012 #6
Dalai_1 Dec 2012 #7
pecwae Dec 2012 #8
sibelian Dec 2012 #59
pecwae Jan 2013 #94
AllyCat Dec 2012 #10
lapislzi Dec 2012 #13
ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #14
sibelian Dec 2012 #17
riverwalker Dec 2012 #16
Still Blue in PDX Dec 2012 #18
sibelian Dec 2012 #39
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #68
tama Jan 2013 #99
sibelian Jan 2013 #104
tama Jan 2013 #109
davidpdx Dec 2012 #19
Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #33
NMDemDist2 Dec 2012 #72
rox63 Dec 2012 #20
sibelian Dec 2012 #54
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #21
sibelian Dec 2012 #64
Dustlawyer Dec 2012 #89
tiredtoo Dec 2012 #22
sibelian Dec 2012 #56
MrMickeysMom Dec 2012 #23
joanbarnes Dec 2012 #24
sibelian Dec 2012 #65
Ajaye Dec 2012 #25
Buzz Clik Dec 2012 #28
progressoid Dec 2012 #29
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #34
sibelian Dec 2012 #40
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #46
WiffenPoof Dec 2012 #53
sibelian Dec 2012 #57
bettyellen Dec 2012 #62
HiPointDem Dec 2012 #70
nolabear Dec 2012 #73
Union Scribe Dec 2012 #88
Skidmore Dec 2012 #26
datasuspect Dec 2012 #27
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #35
datasuspect Dec 2012 #47
HERVEPA Dec 2012 #91
datasuspect Jan 2013 #98
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #100
nobodyspecial Jan 2013 #107
sibelian Jan 2013 #112
MindPilot Dec 2012 #60
datasuspect Dec 2012 #75
HERVEPA Jan 2013 #101
PasadenaTrudy Dec 2012 #30
sibelian Dec 2012 #42
Utopian Leftist Dec 2012 #31
caseymoz Dec 2012 #32
sibelian Dec 2012 #86
caseymoz Jan 2013 #92
sibelian Jan 2013 #111
lunatica Dec 2012 #36
sibelian Dec 2012 #48
samsingh Dec 2012 #37
sibelian Dec 2012 #66
samsingh Dec 2012 #67
green for victory Dec 2012 #38
liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #41
arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #43
TM99 Dec 2012 #44
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #45
sibelian Dec 2012 #50
Robyn66 Dec 2012 #69
distantearlywarning Dec 2012 #49
get the red out Dec 2012 #51
ananda Dec 2012 #55
sibelian Dec 2012 #63
hunter Dec 2012 #58
sibelian Dec 2012 #61
nolabear Dec 2012 #71
sibelian Jan 2013 #105
libodem Dec 2012 #74
musical_soul Dec 2012 #76
sibelian Dec 2012 #78
musical_soul Dec 2012 #80
David__77 Dec 2012 #77
KT2000 Dec 2012 #79
ecstatic Dec 2012 #81
ohheckyeah Dec 2012 #82
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #93
ohheckyeah Jan 2013 #97
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #83
sibelian Dec 2012 #85
ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2012 #87
sibelian Jan 2013 #103
ChisolmTrailDem Jan 2013 #110
TexasBushwhacker Dec 2012 #84
BeHereNow Dec 2012 #90
nolabels Jan 2013 #95
HiPointDem Jan 2013 #96
MFM008 Jan 2013 #102
dawg Jan 2013 #106
sibelian Jan 2013 #108

Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:33 AM

1. This is very interesting, sibelian.

May I ask you how old you are or just generally what generation?

Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to enough (Reply #1)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:44 AM

9. I'm forty two.


It's taken me a loooong time...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:53 AM

12. You're young yet, believe me!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:38 AM

2. Acceptance :)

 

And with acceptance strength to face the fears and adapt while standing with your convictions and true to compassion from within.

And music, lots of wonderful music, here's one nice song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1vscz5qOipk

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:59 AM

3. Brava! what a beautiful and inspiring post

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to secondwind (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:45 AM

11. Thank you!


bless you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:02 AM

4. You did the right thing. A youthful outlook comes from the ignorance and inexperience of

youth. You can't be really happy until you face and deal with the pain of life. Before you do that, any happiness you find can be taken from you too easily by the trials life tosses at you.

If someone needs antidepressants, by all means, they should take them. But too often we mistake sadness and grief for depression, when in fact those are constructive and necessary emotions.

Nice post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Squinch (Reply #4)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:36 PM

52. Thank you, Squinch.


I just wish I'd got to grips with the ideas you express earlier in life...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:08 AM

5. Good for you, but not for everyone

Although I commend you, for some it can be very dangerous to stop taking meds. Please speak to your doctor before stopping.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Susieville (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:11 AM

15. I stopped some months ago, in March.

It WAS dangerous. But, I am here and all is well.

I can't speak for others. I don't think I'll ever tell anyone to stop using their medication.

I don't need to speak to a doctor. I have a long history of speaking to doctors attempting to "correct" emotional disturbances in me that they had no real understanding of, nor could they be expected to have such understanding. They have always wanted to help, and sometimes they did, but in the end I had to fix myself. Any good doctor will tell you that the drugs are a crutch, not a healing process.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:17 AM

6. I recently came to the same decision

I of course was not severely depressed so I don't recommend it. For me it was that they didn't seem to be helping. I feel better since I've stopped taking them.

I also agree that when you stop searching for happiness it generally finds you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:19 AM

7. Kick n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:29 AM

8. Listening to our bodies

is a health-filled path. I'm empathetic and happy for you.

I wish there were more thought provoking OPs like yours.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pecwae (Reply #8)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:23 PM

59. Thank you pecwae... and it may interest you to know that this whole process started with yoga...


... it really works...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #59)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 06:56 AM

94. My w/d process began

with meditation. I know this is "woo-woo" to many, but meditation helps me enormously.

Just to add: there's no shame or blame to those who rely on antidepressants. It's wonderful that they seemed to have helped and even saved the lives of so many here. I'd just ask that the same sentiment be passed to those of us who have stopped the drugs and found alternative avenues for dealing with our issues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:44 AM

10. Being present with anxiety has helped me with a similar challenge

It is still there, but I am learning to accept it. Thank you for posting this so that I have another perspective!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:05 AM

13. This is so important

Thank you for sharing

Being sad is not a medical condition; nor is being frightened or worried. These are normal and natural aspects of living fully in the world. If your sadness or worry interferes unduly with your activities of daily life, or is in some way debilitating for a long period, then you probably need to see a doctor.

There is so much wisdom in the acceptance of what comes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:07 AM

14. Take care of yourself

I read a theory or opinion one time that people who tend toward darker simply thoughts see 'reality' better than most of us.

Still, they shouldn't turn in towards the self to the point of self destruction, right?



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:32 AM

17. Thank you.


You are right, and I think the "turning inwards" is an excellent description of what happens. I hear the phrase a lot, and I'm sure you do too, what I think we don't hear about very often is the idea of its opposite, of "opening out".

I think that people can tolerate amazing levels of loss and grief so long as you don't let the poisonous thought into you that your own emotional reactions to your difficulties are somehow "unfair", so long as you don't start feeling bad about feeling bad. Looking back, that was what scuppered me, it was like crossing a kind of emotional event horizon and I strongly suspect, having had suicidal ideas (and acted on them, unsuccessfully, thank goodness, once and once only) is very closely related to that barrier. You start fighting yourself when you're already down, who can you turn to?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:20 AM

16. thank you

for speaking for many.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:38 AM

18. Thank you for the perspective.

I quit taking mine simply because I got lazy about compliance. It's been miserable. I've been miserable.

Perhaps acceptance is the answer instead of fighting the feelings.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Still Blue in PDX (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:13 AM

39. It might be.


I can really only talk about myself.

I think letting yourself believe and trust that there is a sober part of you, a part that is sombre, sullen, dreary and unwilling to let go of the things it wants to gnaw on can be a very powerful thing. It's like discovering an enormous black dragon in the back of your head. A huge, beautiful, dreadful dragon that really is YOU, refusing to pretend to be what it isn't. Gripping its own authenticity with baleful, bitter resolve. A thing to be respected, really, I'd say.

Over the past year I have wallowed and wallowed in despair. I have looked at miserable songs on Youtube repeatedly, over and over again, walked in the rain, sat at home staring into the distance and refusing to go out and meet my friends. I did these things deliberately. I got my head really muddy. I stopped planning for my future to be bright and beautiful. I kept opportunities to fool myself about what I thought about myself and my life to an absolute minimum. My mind went wandering. I wanted the truth, not fun.

I think it's like a wave. Like a great storm passing. It's not logical.

Now I'm on the other side I can see new things, like surviving pieces of a wrecked ship washing ashore. I've picked them up, washed them and put them on the mantlepiece in my head. "This isn't what I wanted," I think, polishing my newly found and unexpected total disinterest in what other people think of me. "This isn't what I planned" I think, scraping dirt off my newly found and totally unanticipated refusal to "achieve" things that hold no interest for me whatsoever. "This wasn't what I was told would happen" I think, as I carefullly re-arrange my material poverty (which is probably permanent), my cruddy job in the National Health Service (which I've always hated) and my tendency to find myself in endless crisis (which I manage well, but hate) by the light of the hearth and they reveal themselves to be, respectively, excellent budget management, a dedication to difficult but worthwhile things for very little reward and a flexible, enduring nature. "It isn't what I wanted to be." I think. "It's the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to be. I wanted to be a materially successful, spontaeously creative arty guy that's inflexible and active and gets what he wants out of life. But... it is who I AM." I ponder this thought deeply and the dragon chuckles, his grey eyes glinting dully in the funereal gloom.

Perhaps a storm will smash away what doesn't matter in you and the sea of Despair will wash your true self ashore. That's what happened to me, it needn't be what happens to you.

But I'm very glad it did happen to me. I can get on with it, now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:10 PM

68. "a dedication to difficult but worthwhile things for very little reward" = indeed. the scars are

 

worth it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:44 AM

99. Dark Night of the Soul

 

I've heard the term many times, in reference to a life period that many go through, but didn't know it refers to a poem until now that I googled:

Once in the dark of night,
Inflamed with love and wanting, I arose
(O coming of delight!)
And went, as no one knows,
When all my house lay long in deep repose

All in the dark went right,
Down secret steps, disguised in other clothes,
(O coming of delight!)
In dark when no one knows,
When all my house lay long in deep repose.

And in the luck of night
In secret places where no other spied
I went without my sight
Without a light to guide
Except the heart that lit me from inside.

It guided me and shone
Surer than noonday sunlight over me,
And lead me to the one
Whom only I could see
Deep in a place where only we could be.

O guiding dark of night!
O dark of night more darling than the dawn!
O night that can unite
A lover and loved one,
Lover and loved one moved in unison.

And on my flowering breast
Which I had kept for him and him alone
He slept as I caressed
And loved him for my own,
Breathing an air from redolent cedars blown.

And from the castle wall
The wind came down to winnow through his hair
Bidding his fingers fall,
Searing my throat with air
And all my senses were suspended there.

I stayed there to forget.
There on my lover, face to face, I lay.
All ended, and I let
My cares all fall away
Forgotten in the lilies on that day.

http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.fi/2009/09/saint-john-of-cross-dark-night-of-soul.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tama (Reply #99)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:18 PM

104. That you tama,


that's beautiful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #104)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 06:31 PM

109. What I believe

 

It's a silly New Age etc. belief that everything, including anger and fear (and gravity), is fundamentally based on love. And that through journeys of fear and anger and getting there lost for a while, we just find new aspects of love. Love as being and experiencing all aspects of being, even the most horrible and terrifying ones. And no, I didn't invent it, just going with the flow...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:40 AM

19. I think it is great you could do that

Personally I know what I'm like without medication and I would tell most people they don't want to know what that is. I have started to talk to my doctor about cutting back in the new year to see what we can eliminate. My wife and I are going to take up yoga together as a way to relax (though I'm going to embarrass myself because I can't bend like most of the limber women in the class). Exercise is a component that I haven't stayed with enough and I know I need to push myself to do more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to davidpdx (Reply #19)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:49 AM

33. May I suggest to you and everyone else struggling with melancholia,

grief, anxiety, etc. that you check out the potential benefits of meaningfulness meditation? Buddhists, Tibetans in particular, stumbled onto some very powerful secrets a long time ago, and western psychologists (and a few psychiatrists) are finally beginning to catch on.

The meditation techniques are totally compatible with virtually any religious background, or none. It is not about beliefs, but about a way of being in the world.

Here s an excellent book to start with:

Emotional Alchemy: How the Mind Can Heal the Heart
Tara Bennett-Goleman

http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Alchemy-Mind-Heal-Heart/dp/0609809032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356882377&sr=8-1&keywords=tara+goleman

“May this very important and enticing book find its way into the hearts of readers near and far so that it can perform its mysterious and healing alchemy for the benefit of all.” —John Kabat-Zinn, author of Wherever You Go, There You Are and
Professor of Medicine, University of Massachusetts Medical School


The Transformative Power of Mindfulness

Alchemists sought to transform lead into gold. In the same way, says Tara Bennett- Goleman, we all have the natural ability to turn our moments of confusion or emotional pain into insightful clarity.

Emotional Alchemy maps the mind and shows how, according to recent advances in cognitive therapy, most of what troubles us falls into ten basic emotional patterns, including fear of abandonment, social exclusion (the feeling that we don’t belong), and vulnerability (the feeling that some catastrophe will occur). This remarkable book also teaches us how we can free ourselves of such patterns and replace them with empathy for ourselves and others through the simple practice of mindfulness, an awareness that lets us see things as they truly are without distortion or judgment. Emotional Alchemy provides an insightful explanation of how mindfulness can change not only our lives, but the very structure of our brains, giving us the freedom to be more creative and alive.

Here is a beautifully rendered work full of Buddhist wisdom and stories of how people have used mindfulness to conquer their self-defeating habits. The result is a whole new way of approaching our relationships, work, and internal lives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:29 PM

72. thanks for the suggestion

i just bought two copies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:42 AM

20. I'm very happy for you

But not all people can just drop the meds and wait for things to get better. The meds have saved my life multiple times. Every time I have decided that I didn't need them any more, my life eventually spiraled down to a very dark and dangerous place. I've had years of therapy, which did help immensely. But I have also accepted that I have a chronic condition, and not taking the meds to control that condition is life-threatening.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rox63 (Reply #20)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:50 PM

54. You are the judge.


It is certainly not my place to presume authority on conditions that are potentially fatal. A great deal of my difficulty stemmed from foolish assumptions, and the last thing I would want to do is encourage others to step off a cliff, metaphorically or otherwise... That would be making more assumptions. I can only speak for myself.

The various medications I have attempted eventually just made everything worse, but that's not the same thing as saying that they have no place in anyone else's medicine cabinet...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:50 AM

21. I think your on the right track! Life can be wonderful and terrible.

I look at it like a roller coaster! On the big drops it's, "Oh shit, here I go again!" Then I set about getting through it. I do this by finding the little things that can be funny and hope that the next climb up is around the corner. On the way up I temper it with the knowledge that it will not last either, so I enjoy it to the hilt while it lasts. When you are in the depths of sadness and despair, you can get through it b/c you know that it will eventually it will get better. I learned this after 12/21/1993 when I lost my 3 1/2 year old son! I was a basket case for 2 years! I finally saw that the only good thing I could take from that tragedy was to learn to have as much fun everyday as possible! It changed my life for the better. I am glad you have found your way!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:07 PM

64. Thank you dustlawyer


I have to say I think you have suffered a tragedy vastly more profound and apalling than anything that's ever happened to me... I can't imagine what it must have been like at all. Your way of dealing with it seems like it comes from the kind of naturally energetic and positive person that I always hoped to be but in the end had to be satisfied with not being...

Bless you and all the best for 2013...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 10:43 AM

89. As I have gotten older and reflected more, I came to the understanding of who I am vs. what I want

to be. I learned to accept who I am and be comfortable with it! I also looked at things that I wanted to do. My friends and relatives laugh and tell me that one person cannot make a difference! I have seen over my life that yes, one person can and has made differences in all sorts of big things. Here, if I can get people on board, I want to raise this issue of Complete Campaign Finance Reform to the National debate where I hope it will catch fire! You and others can help just by commenting! I think it is the only thing that can save the planet from being trashed b/c these corporations only care about money in the here and now! There is no profit in saving the environment. When BP used to show their new green logo and brag about how they had started all of these environmental projects in commercial after commercial, we saw in their answers to discovery in the Texas City explosion of their plant case, they had spent 100 million on that ad campaign, and 5 million on the projects. This was just enough to have something to make the commercial about! Thanks for your support! Lets go kick their butts! Lol

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:53 AM

22. Thank you for the excellent post.

Recently talked to a lady who is 52 years old concerning mood altering drugs. She takes something for anxiety. I suggested working on eliminating this. She told me about being in a grocery store and getting so anxious that she just left her basket full of products and walked out of the store.
This left me speechless but, i still think the mind is an amazing thing and can be used to overcome many of these mood problems. With proper help/training.
I have suffered with depression more then once in my life. One time i used drugs as the Dr. i was seeing told me if i did not take the drugs he would not have me as a patient. Took the drugs for about 3 months did not like the side affects and eventually got over that depressive time. Have had other bouts with depression one lasting a few years. Most recent was about 4 or 5 years ago, i found a psychologist that fit my needs. So far no relapses, i still use her words of wisdom to maintain my equilibrium.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tiredtoo (Reply #22)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:59 PM

56. I'm very reassured to learn that I'm not the only one!


Thank you.

I haven't had any face to face psyche help in a few years now. I didn't find it hugely beneficial even at the time, to be honest. It was nice to have someone to talk to, at least, but these days my boyfriend is just as good ( he used to be useless... ). It's primarily because most of the problems I was facing at that were things I could probably have just changed if I wanted to, but I didn't...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 09:55 AM

23. As John and Yoko said...

"Whatever gets you through the night... It's alright..... It's alright...."

I have a "triad" approach to when depression presents itself, so this is not advice. However, I have also had it confirmed, so believe that entering that "dark night" and learning from it (with or without assisted anti-depressant therapy) is always joined by the more important two things, talking to someone who is willing to witness and tell you things about the process (okay if it's a therapist, so long as it reaches some end point) and exercise, which can be done in many ways.

These things cause for deep self-analysis, which, by the way, is not always easy, but gets easier.

And, if you believe that we move through the universe, which seeks its own answers, the Mayans probably were right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:23 AM

24. I find myself totally agreeing, I don't believe in those drugs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to joanbarnes (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:10 PM

65. Well I'm doing okay... I'm not necessarily advocating my experience as a panacea...


There are some who genuinely need them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:32 AM

25. Dangerous

This is a dangerous and patronizing idea, that somehow anti depressants are happy pills that maintain some sort of oblivious condition so that people just get cut off from reality so that they never have to face bad feelings.

As a person who has achieved stability after a lifelong battle with incapacitating depression through appropriate medical treatment, I resent the implication that I could have done it on my own, am trying to duck reality, or am the victim of big pharma. I take a generic so they ain't making all that much off my troubled brain chemistry.

I have a biochemical deficiency that I choose to deal with by taking medication and for quite some time going to therapy. Of course exercise and eating well and maintaining social relationships only help and are enough to maintain mental health for some people, but not enough for me. The nature of my illness is such that I do not merely get sad, I become totally consumed with self loathing and I suffer tremendously and lose all productivity.

I am not happy all the time. I have a melancholy and cynical disposition still. I have high levels of anxiety as do most sane people in tough economic and political times. I am still able to cry when appropriate. I simply don't cry all day long for no particular reason on meds. I see the world and its problems well enough with a clear eye. My parents and ancestors had no options and went to alcohol to self medicate. This is a genetic legacy and I was able to stop the pattern.

It is true that anti depressants can have side effects and are not appropriate for all people, especially those who are responding with appropriate sadness and grief to a particular loss.

Do not encourage mentally ill people to stop appropriate treatment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:38 AM

28. a quiet plus one

Nice response.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:41 AM

29. +1





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:54 AM

34. Yup

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:14 AM

40. "Do not encourage mentally ill people to stop appropriate treatment."


......

I didn't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:24 AM

46. She wasn't advocating anything for anyone

else, she was speaking only for herself. I find this criticism unfair, jmo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:36 PM

53. Thank You For Your Post

I too was slightly offended by the idea that I simply didn't want to face the slings and arrows of life. There is a difference between being depressed and suffering from clinical depression. They are very different. It is easy to just write us off as unwilling to face reality when some of us suffer from chemical imbalances that have nothing to do with our courage or lack thereof.

I'm glad that the OP was able to stop using meds. However, it seems he/she should have never been on them to begin with.

Antidepressants gave me back my life. And for that, I am grateful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WiffenPoof (Reply #53)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:02 PM

57. Oh, I wouldn't say that.


I have no idea what would have happened to me in my early thirties without antidepressants. Suicidal ideas every five minutes, at that age...

Your own experience is something I am certainly not in a position to make assumptions about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:49 PM

62. THIS.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:15 PM

70. "Do not encourage mentally ill people to stop appropriate treatment." The poster didn't. Quite

 

explicitly.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:39 PM

73. With respect, the tx has to be specific to each person.

There are those who need and should have pharmaceutical relief and those who can choose a different path. I advocate for each according to need and see no hierarchy in what people need.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ajaye (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:50 AM

88. Great post.

The last few days has been simply idiotic on DU, with every dark age myth about antidepressants being flung around this place (literally copied and pasted from a dangerous cult), the "zombie happy pill" meme being one of them and you did a wonderful job refuting it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:33 AM

26. I used one for a period of a year and a half,

and I must say I benefited from the pill as it allowed my brain cells to re-establish the serotonin uptake cycle. My system had seriously been out of whack for a while due to endocrine problems. Neither my doctor nor I entered this therapy as any more than a short term treatment with a specific goal in mind. As I said, it was extremely beneficial for more than helping with mood but with a number of physical issues as well. I haven't taken anything for some time now and am happy to have had the benefit of that therapy available to me. However, I do think that too many times medications are overprescribed, medications regimens are not examined thoroughly, and our society relies too much on chemical solutions to all problems.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:34 AM

27. they've made an industry of pathologizing people

 

they're training us to see natural human experience as "sickness."

these medications, along with our food, are pure poison

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:55 AM

35. Huge incorrect generalization

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HERVEPA (Reply #35)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:29 AM

47. please disabuse me of my notions.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 12:27 PM

91. In many (most) cases, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance.

And very often runs in families. Certain medicines allow people to live normal lives. It's not a matter of just being sad sometimes for many people. It's an actual debilitating illness. Sounds like you're say people should just suck it up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HERVEPA (Reply #91)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 09:20 AM

98. when i was in my 20s

 

they tried to run that chemical imbalance jive on me.

i tried the anti depressant route: felt like i was never really there, couldn't get a proper hardon, all kinds of side effects.

i stopped taking them, got a parentdectomy, grew up and sucked it up.

is life perfect? no.

but i learned you can't chase happiness. you just learn how to cope better.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:25 PM

100. Glad it worked for you.

Doesn't work for everyone.
Assuming you didn't have a chemical imbalance, that doesn't mean nobody does.
I take an anti-depressant, have no ill-effects, and enjoy life fully. If I cut back, I have problems.
Would be dumb of me not to take them due to a misguided attempt at purity.

Calling chemical imbalance jive makes no sense.

Seems like you are denying that depression is an illness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #98)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:17 PM

107. So because that "worked" for you

it should be the same for everyone.

If my brother would have stayed on is meds, I'm pretty sure he would be alive today.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #107)

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 10:17 AM

112. "it should be the same for everyone."


It doesn't seem to me that that's the position of the person you're responding to.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to datasuspect (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:25 PM

60. absolutely correct--mental health "professionals" are not to be trusted.

They are all about "normalizing" people to fit the some standard profile of a proper American.

If you are easily bored, there is something wrong with you. If you don't properly kowtow to authority, there is something wrong with you. If you are not happy about watching your country turned into a corporate police state, there is something wrong with you.If you don't believe in god, there is something wrong with you. The only thing they have to offer is drugs that make you feel worse than you did before you went for "help".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MindPilot (Reply #60)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 06:44 PM

75. therapist = the rapist

 

mental rapist

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MindPilot (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:29 PM

101. or, in many people's cases, better.

I'm not happy about what's going on in the country. Doesn't mean I should be unhappy about my life in general.
That doesn't help anyone, but rather hurts those close to me.

I don't believe in god. Taking an anti-depressant has no relationship to that. No one ever told me I should believe in god. I think my therapist is an atheist.
Some authority is necessary, some isn't.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:43 AM

30. Not a good idea

for people with major depressive disorder! Speak to your doc fist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PasadenaTrudy (Reply #30)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:16 AM

42. No need, for me, I think.


What others choose to do is up to them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:44 AM

31. What we resist persists

You are not alone in this line of thinking. I heard the metaphysical guru Osho talk about this and it is an ancient idea in the east: that to overcome negative emotions, one must not fight them but rather surrender, experience them fully and then release; they will begin to leave.

When we shine light, darkness cannot but flee. Of course, it doesn't seem this way when one is clinically or chronically depressed. I know that because I have taken antidepressants on and off (mostly only when I had insurance) for my entire adult life, and I probably should have been on them as a child.

I agree with you in not suggesting anyone ditch their meds. I am still taking mine but I do believe that my own change in attitude a few years ago has paid immense rewards in the development of new friends, new opportunities to love and new self-esteem. I can see now that I was always valiantly fighting against my depression, banging my head against its stubborn walls. And that such was the worst thing I could do. Instead, I have learned to live with depression rather than fight it. And in living with it, I have made much unexpected progress towards overcoming it.

May peace and love guide you and help you in creating real, lasting prosperity, emotionally and otherwise. Oh, and never let anyone tell you that being serious or having a sober outlook is wrong: after all, to twist the words of Socrates, what good is an examined life if one doesn't seriously deal with whatever that examination has revealed?

Namaste'.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:48 AM

32. First, good luck, I hope it continues to work.


I've been on antidepressants for the better part of twenty years, with a history of depression that goes back farther. I don't expect to ever be completely without them. I feel I have to warn you: depression is cyclical. I've gone without meds and thought I was doing well, had a new attitude, a new outlook, and so on. Some things you've written here have resonated with me. The line about believing that feelings were inherently suspect? I could have written that. Like you, I don't make happiness my goal now.

However, I consider myself serious with or without the meds. I still get sad, when appropriate, the difference is I lose days to inertia when I do. Whether I call it depression or sadness when it hits, it doesn't matter if it debilitates me, stunts the rest of my emotions, cripples my thinking, undermines my livelihood and relationships, and threatens my life. This is what I experienced.

I agree the world is a dark and terrible place. However, I would say it is off-kilter, upset, and out of balance. In fact, it is functioning abnormally. The reason why so many people take antidepressants is because we've created a system that depresses people. That's true the world over, not just in our society. Meanwhile, we're exposed to toxins such as insecticides and herbicides, which-- at low levels-- cause depression as part of their neuro-effects. I did read one article that said if we could get these out of our environment, suicides will drop drastically.

Otherwise, with things like environmental destruction and global warming, despair is the appropriate emotion. I could name a host of other issues that could depress people, or at least give them a lower threshold to it.

I'm not telling you to give up. You should try to do without meds, once or twice, especially if you've never been suicidal. Make sure your sure your doctor knows about it and try to be in therapy just to make sure.

More than anything, don't hold it against yourself if you find what you're experiencing now is the upward part of the cycle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caseymoz (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:40 AM

86. Hi caseymoz


Many thanks for your thought provoking response. I'd like to take some time and respond to it properly as I think it's very well thought out and it touches quite deeply on the core of what I'm talking about. I'm going to have a think and come back to you if that's OK. I can't do it just now, I'm catching a boat to Arran of the West coast of Scotland today, but I'll be back before long...

Have a good New Year and talk soon

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #86)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:20 AM

92. Hope you enjoy your trip.


Have a Happy New Year and feel free to PM me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caseymoz (Reply #92)

Sat Jan 5, 2013, 08:22 AM

111. Hiya.... warning.... wall. of. text.


Some time has passed since I said I would respond to you properly. I wanted to go away and see if I could distill my feelings about the idea of the world being "off-kilter" into something a little more literal and useful than "it isn't".

I'm finding it quite difficult.

I've decided to just dump what I've come up with into this thread and hope for the best.

You have mentioned environmental destruction, global warming and a system that has distorting effects on the natural human persona. I think one of the reasons I regard these as kind of more normal than we would like to think is because of how I view the current (and no probably ending) "era" of expansion and prosperity.

I think if you look back at human history and compare the it to the 20th century it's very difficult to avoid the conclusion that the 20th century was in fact an aberrant process. All that cheap energy and personal development, all those material and spiritual improvements, really they aren't very normal for the human species, which most trundles on for century after century being much the same as it was. I think a lot of the advances we have made are lucky rather than driven by innate qualities or some slightly indefinable "destiny" of the human species. I also think a great deal of the improvements on 19th (and pre) century living that we now take for granted are descended from the effects of cheap energy, and I think that a lot of the changes in social attitudes that we want to maintain as we go forward into our future are strongly linked to that in occulted ways.

I look at portraits in galleries from ages past quite a lot as I am interested in art, and have a preference for art from earlier times. The people are beautifully painted, with astonishing care, and the thing that strikes me about them is that this beauty doesn't come from happiness but seriousness.

I think people used to take the world and themselves far more seriously. I think that stemmed from the necessity to treat things as if they mattered, as if they had a profound and meaningful connection to the world around them and, almost unconsciously, expected their experiences of it to change them and make them into different people. The idea of "changing the world" is relatively modern, and the more I think about it, the stranger the idea is. I think it stems from a fairly basic misunderstanding of what the world *is*.

It's my feeling that cheap gasoline has led us down a spiritual dead-end. We want, want, want and get, get, get. How can it last forever? It can't. We have been slowly tricked into thinking that the world is a kind of enormous theme park. Everyone can be happy! Happy is the new normal. Sad is BAD. We DESERVE it. We're WORTH it. What do these things even mean?

Movies are stuffed with positivity and winning and the good guy getting the girl. Even when movies try to deal with the concept of sadness it's wildly off-base, they wring every last shining tear out of their actors, striking grotesque attitudes and poses to try and wring emotional reactions out of the audience. Sadness is never simple or normal in the world of modern fiction. It's always elaborately established and gutwrenching. It's as overblown as the success-against-all-the-odds stories that form the basis of most modern heroic adventures.

Many highly intelligent people have manged to discover things about the world that we had no idea about until the last century or so, through science. I think this has led to a monolithic concept "the world must be made to fit human expectations" and I think that's just *impossible*. I think this idea has filtered into us, overtly or by suggestion and we are bombarded internally by our own inability to make our dreams come true.

Dreams are wonderful things and it is wrong to turn away from them, but I think it's silly to think that the world is some kind of enormous activity set that we can poke and prod and it will just make happiness for us. When you look into the past and try to understand yourself as part of an ancient process, a process of human living, there have been many, many disastrous consequences for foolish ideas, dreadful wars that make no sense at all, ideological plagues that could have been avoided if they were understood as emotional reactions rather than divine inspiration, insane policies that ruin entire landscapes (Dust Bowl) and so on. Many of the most awful things that humanity has done to itself have resulted from people *following their dreams*. Hitler was a dreamer. He followed his dream, powered the process with his will, which was staggering, and bent the world into nightmarish shapes as a result, because he couldn't disentangle the positive aspects of his dream, which was to lift German society off its knees, from the poisonous imbalance in his soul that couldn't forgive or accept failure. A slightly hyperbolic example, perhaps.

I think the idea that the world is off-kilter doesn't really come from a clear picture of what it would look like if it *wasn't* off-kilter, because, in one way or another, it seems that it always *has* been off-kilter. The obliteration of Native Americans. Easter Island. The Inquisition. The Holocaust. Hiroshima. The Romans used to enslave the *entire populations* of nations.

It's fashionable these days to assume that we are over all these things, that we have changed, I would argue strongly against that. I think the capacity for human beings to screw all this stuff up is entirely innate and not removable, I don't think we can "immunise" ourselves against ourselves. If you read your history and listen to the voices of the dead, they had the same feelings about themselves and the world that we did, their emotions and reactions to the world were *identical* in structure to ours. They wept at the death of comrades in battle, were overwhelmed with joy at the birth of their children, sat by the sick and needy and comforted them, pondered matters of national security and prosperity with deep care, cheated, lied, loved and died in great numbers, and, largely, accepted that this was their lot. I don't think we're any different from them. I think a lot of the problem with modern society stems from the fact that on some level we DO think we're different from them, we think that all this stuff should be fixable somehow. Well, how? Are we, as individuals, simply setting ourselves goals that are simply going to make us miserable?

A great deal has been acheived. Disease is no longer even close to being the demon it used to be, women are now understood to be individuals in their own right rather than slightly-to-one-side versions of men, gay people are now, at last, being welcomed as natural and completely ordinary members of the human race and bigotry is, if not removed entirely, at the very least widely understood to be deeply contraversial and mostly a target for mockery, at least in western liberal democracies. Technology has changed the way we work and live and made everything everywhere a good deal easier and more comfortable for very large numbers of people. The grinding misery of existence no longer grinds as fine and long as it did.

But there's a side effect to that. We are no longer hewn into shapes that fit the world. We want to believe in fairies and dragons and superheroes rather than ourselves and each other. We think the world is enormous labyrinth and if we take the right steps along the way, always carefully choose the appropriate path, then the path will lead us to a golden destination and the more I live the more ridiculous that idea seems, that isn't how it works at all! Again and again we find ourselves banging against the walls of the labyrinth and curse fate when really we should have looked at ourselves and seen that the wall was coming and that the pain of banging into it was either because we weren't looking where we were going or it isn't a wall at all but our own silly preconceptions.

I do not see humanity as separate from the world but as a part of it. Species go extinct, change, renew and burst into existence all the time. Why would we be any different, we who are motivated by the same forces of hunger, love, fear and contentment that characterise the lives of the simplest organisms?

We are driven by what we feel, and we only have a finite gallery of tools in our heart, so it is natural for us to want the world to be amenable to the work of these tools. But these tools are not there to change the world, they are only there to change *us* or the bits of the world that already make sense to us. We hack away at all levels, personal, social, political, spiritual at one big conundrum after another and sometimes it works, sometimes really well, but it's seems very wrong to me now to think that the world is going to provide us with solutions to everything that faces us. It's not on our side and never has been. We're good at solving puzzles so we want the world to be a giant puzzle, but that's not because it *is* one, it's because behaving as if it is makes us feel good about ourselves. The world isn't a game or a trick or an illusion or a mystery waiting to be solved or a test. It's a place. So it's a little bit odd to think of it as being off-kilter... All the things that upset us about the way it goes about its business are things that have always been happening. It's perfectly sensible to want to change the bits of it that we don't like (particularly the bits we have the most control over, i.e. ourselves) and celebrate when we win, but that doesn't mean that it exists *for us to solve*. It doesn't. It just exists.

There. That's a lot of very pre-digested, extremely repetitive, vaguely interconnected stuff that I haven't analysed at all. I'm sure you can think of plenty of things wrong with it! Feel free to take it to pieces. I'd love to be able to think of the world as a nice big nth-dimensional sudoku that's eventually going to get completed because usually I'm quite clever and that would make me feel good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:56 AM

36. It seems you have become the master of your fate and the

captain of your soul. It feels pretty good doesn't it? It's the hero's mythological journey that we must all travel.

We all have our dark side, our shadow side but pretending it's not there or covering it up with medication never works for those of us who aren't truly mentally ill. You're very brave.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lunatica (Reply #36)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:03 PM

48. Thank you, lunatica.


Yes. The whole thing did have a very mythological feel to it! I started having the strangest daydreams... almost like hallucinating, sometimes. But, once I understood what they meant, they went away, having done their job.

I don't think I'd necessarily recommend what I chose to everyone. I was fortunate enough to have a stable home life, a stable job (I wouldn't call it a "career"... ) a loving boyfriend and a wonderful family. I'm very lucky.

It did get a bit rocky. I probably shouldn't say too much more.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:01 AM

37. i wish you the best

one thing to remember when you're down. the negative dark feelings will pass. It's a matter of riding those feelings out. They will eventually go away. Humans are resilient.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to samsingh (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:18 PM

66. Thank you samsingh.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 02:37 PM

67. yoga and especially hot yoga

are excellent mood stabilizers

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:10 AM

38. you might find this video of a former pharmaceutical representative interesting

 

she was on them and sold them!
turns out there are a ton of these types of vids...



EDIT: Add-wow this one is even better

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:15 AM

41. I have felt that yin and yang all my life

My mother died when I was 3 which created a deep seeded insecurity in me that has never gone away. I enjoy the love of my family. I am very much in love and my children bring me happiness but there has always been a sadness and a debilitating fear of the world. I can't hold down a job. Anti-depressants have helped in the past but I am not good at taking medicine. I either forget to take them or I'm just not motivated enough to take them plus they give me headaches. I have seen anti-depressants work for other people. My mother-in-law takes them and it helps her with her depression. Mood stabilizers saved my husband's life. I am not one who thinks that all anti-depressants are bad. Obviously if a medicine doesn't work for an individual or if an individual has side affects or an allergic reaction they shouldn't take that medicine. If someone is experiencing side affects they should contact their doctor and if they are experiencing life threatening side affects they should go to the hospital. I had an allergic reaction to a medication my doctor had me on for my excessive daytime sleepiness so I stopped taking those immediately and have never taken that medication again. My husband became physically dependent on opiate pain killers, so he asks his doctors not to prescribe him those when possible but sometimes he has no choice. There is some pain that is so unbearable that pain killers are necessary. Not all medication is bad. Not all anti-depressants are bad. It's just that some people have negative reactions to them and those people shouldn't take them. But there are millions of people who are helped by them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:18 AM

43. This is an OP of a very healthy, evolving mind!

I so respect and admire what you said. Why should we run away from our feelings instead af facing them head on? We are given a whole range of emotions so embrace them, which is what you have done! Good on ya mate

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:20 AM

44. Good for you!

The heart of what you wrote is a part of a lot of the therapeutic work in CBT systems like Accept & Commitment Therapy.

A wise teacher of mine shared with me once that most of our 'mental illnesses' were simply the minds inability or desire to accept reality as it is. And if it is bad or painful, then it is not only normal but very healthy to feel sadness, hurt, anger, and fear. Emotions are truly temporary even if moods sustain for a longer period of time because of how we are 'thinking' about our experiences both internal and external. Realigning our cognitive minds with the reality of those emotions and accepting ourselves as we are, is a huge step towards healing.

That took courage and deep insight. Congratulations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:23 AM

45. I wish I could do it but it will never happen

I have bi-polar disorder coupled with PTSD from years of emotional abuse as a child. Then I was raped at 14 and sexually assaulted in college. For years I tried to tough it out and manage the dark and wait for the light until the time when it turned out that the dark became my reality, and MY reality was NOT reality. My situation is primarily chemical and not situational so I do not have the option of removing medication from my life. I also remember how I felt and what I put my family through when the illness was in control. So just like I needed chemotherapy when I had cancer, I need medication to maintain my mental health and quality of life. I would like more than anything not to have to take a fist full of pills every morning but its not worth the trade off for me.

So I wish you all of the best of luck and I hope you stay healthy and happy!!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Robyn66 (Reply #45)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:17 PM

50. This all sounds truly dreadful, Robyn...

... and please do not think that I would dream of suggesting that you abandon anything that genuinely helps you. I am more fortunate than many of the depressives I have met. I've known some people who literally couldn't move from their chairs they were so down and turned inside. My recent experiences would be of no use to them at all.

There are few people who can truly understand the deep changes that can be wrought in your "basement" by being kept perpetually off-balance emotionally as a child. I can only guess at your experiences and the effect on you, if your childhood was anything like mine I could imagine that you will at times feel astonishingly isolated in the world, as if wandering through a dream where everyone understands the "rules" intuitively except you, who had to learn them. We learn to stay off-balance, I think.

Take care and here's hoping that 2013 is good to you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:12 PM

69. And to you as well :)

If you want a glimps in to what I grew up with take a look at this if you dare

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021996704

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:15 PM

49. Thanks for saying this.

You relieved some existential isolation for me this morning, as I made a similar choice a number of years ago and thought I was pretty much the only one out there who thought this way. I no longer resist feeling my emotions, whether they are negative or positive, and I no longer subscribe to the normative American belief that some vague notion of "happiness" is the meaning of life or that sadness, etc. is something abnormal. Mostly I just work on accepting reality as it is, and in cases where something must be done, I work on addressing what I feel is the situational cause of the emotion rather than the emotion itself.

My analogy is the pain caused by putting one's hand on a hot stove - the pain itself is not the problem; rather the problem is that I put my hand on the hot stove. The pain is a highly functional mechanism that lets me know when something in my environment or my own behavior is dysfunctional. If I remove the pain instead of removing my hand from the stove, I have both disrupted that functional mechanism and am continuing to harm myself. It is the same with emotional pain - it's there to tell me that something is wrong with my environment and/or behavior. It's not something bad, abnormal, or dysfunctional, and it should be accepted and attended to rather than ignored, medicated, or shoved away.

In any case, however, I do not chase so-called "happiness", or assume that if I am not happy 24-7 that something is wrong with me. It's been working out ok for me for about a decade now. I do not see mental health professionals, and I do not take medications. I just accept reality and do the best I can for other people and myself. I am not always "happy", and I am not in any sort of denial about the darkness of the world. Sometimes I am sad and angry, and that is ok too. I just fix what I can and accept the rest as the reality of life.

Have you read Barbara Ehrenreich's book "Brightsided"? It's about her belief that our insistence on "positivity" and "happiness" at the expense of facing and dealing with reality is actually very harmful to us as a society. If you haven't read it yet, I strongly recommend it. There is another book that recently came out about this topic - "The antidote: Happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking", by Oliver Burkeman. Someone gave it to me as a Christmas gift, but I haven't had the chance to read it yet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:53 PM

55. I do not like psychotropes for anybody.

But this society has been totally brainwashed into believing the pseudoscience behind drugging people "for their own good."

And those drugs have effects, yes I said effects not side effects; and those effects are bad. Depression is difficult, but there are ways to deal with it and even get through it without drugs.

I like that Sally Sparrow quote from Dr. Who's "Blink" episode: "Sad is happy for deep people."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ananda (Reply #55)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:50 PM

63. Hmmmm. Difficult.


I don't know whether I agree with you or not, ananda. I do think the knee-jerk prescription of anti-depressants for anyone who presents with emotional difficulties is a badly over-used short-cut but there have been periods in my life where it's very difficult to see what else I could have done.

I agree entirely about the effects of antidepressants. They induce distortions of the emotional centres, chemical distortions. I've been on several and in the end I just couldn't handle any of them any more. The side effects are no longer tolerable, for me.

I experimented extensively with "recreational" psychotropics when I was younger. My thoughts on that are long and complex, I think I would leave it by saying "I'm very glad I did and I regret it."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:12 PM

58. I think most people who get as depressed as I do simply kill themselves.



I'm lucky (or unlucky) enough to suffer OCD too so the last flickering remnant of my logical(?) mind always realizes I can't do all the FUCKING useless CRAP I NEED to do if I'm dead and decides being dead would be intolerable.

Unmedicated I suffer the worst possible nightmares, bordering on waking hallucinations. And then I don't sleep at all and everything gets much, much worse. I stop eating , get sick, lose crazy amounts of weight and turn into skeleton man haunting the library.

There's no way I can make lemonaide out of that shit, and I've tried.

I think with meds I can achieve sibelian's sort of existence, living in a dark world with some sort of functional sanity. But without meds I'm useless.

In past years I've quit meds and therapy against medical advice with all sorts of bad consequences and don't recommend it even though I'm doing that now (in a small way) because I didn't like a few side effects of my last trip on the pharmaceutical merry-go-round.

My New Year's resolution is to seek a place that's better than the one I'm currently existing in. I've been in such a place before, but never without meds...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hunter (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 01:33 PM

61. That sounds very debilitating.

I sympathise with you deeply, I have had periods where nightmares disturbed me for weeks and it's a hideous, hideous feeling. I felt utterly betrayed... "Stupid brain! Fucking work, damn you!" But there's nothing more fruitless than losing your temper with your subconscious... I never got to the stage where I could depend on suffering nightmares off medication, I have to say, which seems like it would be really frightening.

It sounds to me, however, like you at least have a handle on your condition and circumstances, although it doesn't sound at all comfortable. Even just understanding it is better than nothing. I hope things get better for you, hunter. Perhaps one day things will change...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:24 PM

71. You perfectly describe my hopes for my therapy patients.

I've taken an increasingly Zen approach over the years. Attachment to the world being without pain makes for fear of vulnerability and strong defenses, and defenses block out both good and bad. Trust is hard, but trust or lack thereof that you will experience both pain and joy, often and ultimately beyond your control (we do all die) keeps you from truly being anywhere or receiving anything. Easy? No. But rich. Very rich.

Have a real and rich 2013, sibelian.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nolabear (Reply #71)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:22 PM

105. Thank you nolabear


Bless you and here's hoping 2013 is good to you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 04:16 PM

74. Cool

I have to manage the serious or I get snippy. I try not to take myself too seriously, either. I just can't tolerate ssri's anymore. And the old nighttime one's didn't mix with my pain meds. I have to manage my dark side cuz it abides.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 07:38 PM

76. You shouldn't stop cold turkey.

You have come to some positive conclusions, and that's a really good thing.

It's better to go to your doctor about this so he/she can slowly get you off the anti-depressants. Stopping cold turkey can make the symptoms come back with a vengeance and can also cause physical problems. I knew somebody who was in a lot of pain because she stopped cold turkey.

I'm taking half of what I used to take, but it's under doctor supervision. Next time, I plan on trying to go down further.

Just be careful.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to musical_soul (Reply #76)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:36 PM

78. Ancient history.


I stopped in March.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:48 PM

80. That's good to hear.

Congratulations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:32 PM

77. SSRIs have an adverse impact on me.

I take responsibility for my own actions, but the extreme "leveling" effect of the drugs, for me, is not conducive to being intimate, empathetic, or kind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 08:55 PM

79. Love your post!

A doctor once asked me if I was depressed. I told him I am not mindless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 10:58 PM

81. Good for you. To be on the safe side, maybe you should keep a journal

and document your feelings/thoughts, while taking note of any unusual emotions, thought patterns, etc. that you experience.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:03 PM

82. I think the information from Journal of

the American Medical Association explains why those severely depressed report different experiences with SSRIs than those with mild to moderate depression.

Just published in JAMA Jan 5 (2010), reported that SSRI antidepressants are no better than placebo for most cases of depression. The authors reviewed 30 years of data and concluded that "the benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo may be minimal or nonexistent in patients with mild or moderate symptoms".

Better than Placebo for Severe Depression

I should add that the study found antidepressants work better than placebo for severe depression. This is not surprising, since virtually any psycho-stimulant can be found useful for the most the severely depressed patient.


http://www.science20.com/natural_medicine_101_jeffrey_dach_md/ssri_antidepressants_no_better_placebo_says_jama

I, too, found SSRIs didn't help me and actually caused me great harm but they were prescribed for sleep instead of depression. They caused anxiety attacks for which I was prescribed Xanax and Xanax then made me depressed. It was a vicious cycle for me that I ended by quitting (over a period of time) both drugs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ohheckyeah (Reply #82)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 04:39 AM

93. interesting that you were prescribed ssri's as a sleep aid. what was the medical rationale for

 

Last edited Tue Jan 1, 2013, 07:11 AM - Edit history (1)

that, i wonder?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 11:54 AM

97. It was a couple of months after I had back surgery.

They thought it would help with pain as well as sleep. I didn't know any better. The SSRI I took, Deseryl, is more sedating than most SSRIs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 01:58 AM

83. Very interesting. May I ask a question?

I don't understand the sort of profound sadness that comes for some from living in this world. I see all the dark and painful things that happen to me and the people I love and others as well as some of the downright atrocious behavior humankind can exhibit and I get sad and I grieve and I literally cry, like I did as the WTC towers collapsed, for instance. But then I can file it away after a time and move on and enjoy life and have fun and laugh in between the sadness and pain. I can tell you that I am only just now getting to the point where I don't start crying when I think about the Newtown massacre. On the other hand I had a great and happy Christmas.

I know that often depression is caused biologically, but otherwise is it just that some of us can cope better and are able to put the bad things on a shelf, never forgetting but not dwelling on it, while the bad things pile up around others, incapacitating them with sadness and grief?

I hope my question makes sense and that you know I'm trying to understand. Thank you very much for your post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 03:28 AM

85. I hope you don't mind if I have a think and come back to your post.


I'm about to catch a boat... I will be back Jan 2nd

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 04:00 AM

87. Ha! Of course not, sibelian. Please have a fun and safe trip =) ! Oh, and happy new year! eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #83)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:17 PM

103. Hi chisolmtraildem


Well, I had a think.

Several things can contribute to prolonged situational depression. Stressful jobs, stressful personal circumstances, all sorts of things.

Very often prolonged situation depression can manifest by stealth. If one's life contains few opportunities for happiness then the difficulties life throws at you aren't "balanced out", so to speak. A long time of unpleasant, grinding, psychologically challenging circumstances can be just as damaging as the short, sharp shock of the loss of someone close to you. One of the worst things about it is that everything seems normal, or at least one tends to pay attention to those close to you that would like you t think it's normal for their own reasons. If there's nothing concrete and material to lift your mood, like seeing friends or having something that you want to do that rewards you emotionally, well, it's as if you run out of something. There's a level of emotional resilience required to deal with ordinary events that seems to become... thin. And if it goes on and on and on.... well, your thoughts can end up becoming quite distorted.

We are told to have our own opinions about the world around us - we don't often do this. Actually we allow the world to mould us without knowing it. If we end up in personal circumstances that are detrimental to our emotional well-being without realising it, I'd say depression is very likely, perhaps inevitable. It's the not really knowing that you're cooperating with emotional structures that are slowly damaging you that causes the problem. If you lack faith in your own judgement of relationships with people, you could be in big trouble quickly.

We are told to face our challenges in life and the result of this is that we tend to treat bad feelings as though they are hurdles to overcome. One of the things that freed me from the impossibility of this was realising that I didn't need to overcome challenges I needed to *feel good*. That took a while to sink in...

It's particularly awkward trying to find your way through the labyrinth of other people's ideas about you (which can become a VERY important factor in depression) if you have screwy ideas about yourself in the first place. Looking back on my own life I have to say I have been told an absolutely enormous number of things by other people, with great earnestness, about what kind of guy I am. I'm a slightly unusual person, so I've attracted a lot of attention. Many of the observations directly contradict each other!

These are just some observations...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #103)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 06:51 PM

110. Thank you so much, sibelian, for

coming back to further expound on my question. Your thoughts are very helpful in helping me to better understand and for that I am very appreciative. Much love to you and my best wishes always.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 02:14 AM

84. All well and good, but pay attention to physical symptoms as well

Provided you are not suffering the physical symptoms of depression and anxiety like not sleeping or sleeping to much, not eating or eating to much, withdrawing from others, difficulty concentrating, etc. then you are probably correct. Medication is probably not helpful for you. But it can make the difference between functioning and not functioning for many people.

Here is a really good video from a Stanford professor. I recommend it for anyone who struggles with depression, as well as anyone who thinks people should "snap out of it".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #84)

Mon Dec 31, 2012, 11:14 AM

90. Plus multi-trillion!

I became exhausted trying to explain this very thing to
HiPointDem in another thread... so thank you very much for this
video.

BHN

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 07:24 AM

95. That was so cool !!

There is a lot of information in that video and a lot of the information relates to other things that might have little to do with depression. Thanks again though, because there is lot of understanding there and it's worth watching again or maybe even a few times

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #84)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 07:50 AM

96. Addendum: the gene sapolsky talks about at the end is 5-htt. after more research it turns

 

out it's not that ground-breaking after all:

Results

In the meta-analysis of published data, the number of stressful life events was significantly associated with depression (OR, 1.41; 95% CI,1.25-1.57).

No association was found between 5-HTTLPR genotype and depression in any of the individual studies nor in the weighted average (OR, 1.05; 95% CI, 0.98-1.13) and no interaction effect between genotype and stressful life events on depression was observed (OR, 1.01; 95% CI, 0.94-1.10). Comparable results were found in the sex-specific meta-analysis of individual-level data.

Conclusion

This meta-analysis yielded no evidence that the serotonin transporter genotype alone or in interaction with stressful life events is associated with an elevated risk of depression in men alone, women alone, or in both sexes combined.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938776/


and the same thing has happened with every candidate gene proposed so far: and there have been many.


and even if the association had panned out, the study sapolsky talks about wasn't causal; the controls were diagnosed with major depression too, just not as often (17% v. 33%).

more info on subsequent analyses of this gene:

In the 1990s it has been speculated that the polymorphism might be related to affective disorders, and an initial study found such a link. However, another large European study found no such link.

A decade later two studies found that 5-HTT polymorphism influences depressive responses to life stress; an example of gene-environment interaction (GxE) not considered in the previous studies.

Two 2009 meta-analyses found no overall GxE effect, while a more recent (2011) meta-analysis, which included a larger set of studies, demonstrated a strong positive result.

In turn, the 2011 meta-analysis has been criticized as being overly inclusive (e.g. including hip fractures as outcomes), for deeming a study supportive of the GxE interaction which is actually in the opposite direction, and because of substantial evidence of publication bias and data mining in the literature. This criticism points out that if the original finding were real, and not the result of publication bias, we would expect that those replication studies which are closest in design to the original are the most likely to replicate—instead we find the opposite. This suggests that authors may be data mining for measures and analytic strategies which yield the results they want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HTTLPR


Results

Ninety-six percent of novel cG×E studies were significant compared with 27% of replication attempts. These findings are consistent with the existence of publication bias among novel cG×E studies, making cG×E hypotheses appear more robust than they actually are.

There also appears to be publication bias among replication attempts because positive replication attempts had smaller average sample sizes than negative ones. Power calculations using observed sample sizes suggest that cG×E studies are underpowered. Low power along with the likely low prior probability of a given cG×E hypothesis being true suggests that most or even all positive cG×E findings represent type I errors.

Conclusion

In this new era of big data and small effects, a recalibration of views about “groundbreaking” findings is necessary. Well-powered direct replications deserve more attention than novel cG×E findings and indirect replications.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222234/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Wed Jan 2, 2013, 03:46 PM

102. Good Luck!

I know it can be terrible. I have to remain on anti-depps because my anxiety is so severe, when I stop them (and I have) I become crippled by anxiety symptoms. Anti anxiety doesnt work, only one drug works and that is Zoloft( I know, Ive tried many). Peace and luck.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Original post)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 04:23 PM

106. I have avoided antidepressants for the same reason. I am supposed to be sad.

I don't have an underlying imbalance. I have lost my marriage to the woman I thought was the love of my life and my very best friend. I'm supposed to be sad, damn it. There would be something wrong with me if I wasn't.

(Now, the fact that it's taking me years to get over it is probably indicative of a problem, but I don't think meds are the answer.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dawg (Reply #106)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:17 PM

108. Well...


I think it means that she really meant something to you. I don't think years of thought and painful reflection over losing something like that means there's something wrong with you, I think it means there's something very right with you.

Respect to you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread