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Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:16 PM

 

For the 500,000,000th time... Obama did not lose that debate.

You don't LOSE a debate when the other side is bum rushing with loads of lies and nonsense while reading from a cheat sheet.

Why do we keep letting this undead meme keep zombie walking its way across the DU? Put it down and double-tap it. Obama didn't lose that debate.

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Reply For the 500,000,000th time... Obama did not lose that debate. (Original post)
Zalatix Oct 2012 OP
seabeyond Oct 2012 #1
RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #2
pintobean Oct 2012 #18
randome Oct 2012 #32
pintobean Oct 2012 #41
RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #109
Hissyspit Oct 2012 #19
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #23
DirkGently Oct 2012 #37
randome Oct 2012 #39
roguevalley Oct 2012 #55
PATRICK Oct 2012 #87
roguevalley Oct 2012 #97
quinnox Oct 2012 #71
NoPasaran Oct 2012 #94
grasswire Oct 2012 #108
Logical Oct 2012 #105
RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #110
ywcachieve Oct 2012 #3
CakeGrrl Oct 2012 #4
flamingdem Oct 2012 #5
scheming daemons Oct 2012 #6
randome Oct 2012 #11
RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #12
Curtland1015 Oct 2012 #13
avaistheone1 Oct 2012 #14
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #20
Zalatix Oct 2012 #75
RepublicansRZombies Oct 2012 #111
treestar Oct 2012 #17
andym Oct 2012 #98
Cali_Democrat Oct 2012 #31
Curtland1015 Oct 2012 #35
1StrongBlackMan Oct 2012 #34
fascisthunter Oct 2012 #47
Lightbulb_on Oct 2012 #86
Cosmocat Oct 2012 #88
Enrique Oct 2012 #7
Cha Oct 2012 #8
randome Oct 2012 #9
madrchsod Oct 2012 #10
Honeycombe8 Oct 2012 #58
treestar Oct 2012 #15
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #16
Zalatix Oct 2012 #78
jsmirman Oct 2012 #89
Zalatix Oct 2012 #92
jsmirman Oct 2012 #93
Zalatix Oct 2012 #95
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #21
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #22
Agnosticsherbet Oct 2012 #25
randome Oct 2012 #29
BumRushDaShow Oct 2012 #24
graham4anything Oct 2012 #26
randome Oct 2012 #27
graham4anything Oct 2012 #33
orpupilofnature57 Oct 2012 #28
Skittles Oct 2012 #30
DirkGently Oct 2012 #36
randome Oct 2012 #38
RiverStone Oct 2012 #54
Honeycombe8 Oct 2012 #63
barbtries Oct 2012 #40
krawhitham Oct 2012 #42
Dont call me Shirley Oct 2012 #43
LoisB Oct 2012 #44
Douglas Carpenter Oct 2012 #45
TwilightGardener Oct 2012 #46
fascisthunter Oct 2012 #48
demwing Oct 2012 #49
oldbanjo Oct 2012 #50
jtuck004 Oct 2012 #51
handsofthedevil Oct 2012 #52
babsbunny Oct 2012 #53
handsofthedevil Oct 2012 #57
sendero Oct 2012 #84
OneBlueDotBama Oct 2012 #56
iandhr Oct 2012 #59
Honeycombe8 Oct 2012 #60
Posteritatis Oct 2012 #61
Carnage251 Oct 2012 #62
thesquanderer Oct 2012 #64
MotherPetrie Oct 2012 #65
JackN415 Oct 2012 #66
quinnox Oct 2012 #67
Bucky Oct 2012 #104
ProSense Oct 2012 #68
Raine Oct 2012 #69
Doctor_J Oct 2012 #70
SalviaBlue Oct 2012 #72
lame54 Oct 2012 #73
OldDem2012 Oct 2012 #74
Zalatix Oct 2012 #76
graham4anything Oct 2012 #80
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #81
OldDem2012 Oct 2012 #99
cthulu2016 Oct 2012 #100
UTUSN Oct 2012 #77
elleng Oct 2012 #79
Nye Bevan Oct 2012 #82
Vietnameravet Oct 2012 #83
budkin Oct 2012 #85
meaculpa2011 Oct 2012 #90
B Calm Oct 2012 #91
bvar22 Oct 2012 #96
Permanut Oct 2012 #101
sweetladybug Oct 2012 #102
Bucky Oct 2012 #103
grasswire Oct 2012 #106
backscatter712 Oct 2012 #107

Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:19 PM

1. i do not know about a cheat sheet, but... continual lie doesnt win the debate.

i agree with you. why democrats on du would not suport the president and put out the falme as the repugs did with ryan, .... i have no idea.

president was presidential. talked to the nation. and allowed romney to hang himself with lies.

but wtf.... if you want to pump romney energy, .... pat him on the back for a night of lies.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:22 PM

2. Duers should make a list of anyone pushing that absurd meme that Obama lost- just ridiculous

 

Substance people. Don't allow the 1%ers media make it about their perceived 'style'- they are morons!

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:48 PM

18. What should we do with the list?

Can't we just deal with them when we come across them? Lists are creepy.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #18)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:26 PM

32. So you can ignore everyone.

And never, ever need to encounter proposals that run counter to what you think.

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Response to randome (Reply #32)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:01 PM

41. 2 months

in - something, something zombie, and lists????

Okay

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Response to randome (Reply #32)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:21 PM

109. I am not talking about the common folk followers

 

but cointelpro had a habit of instilling their own leaders to mislead people and groups to remain under their control

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)


Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:03 PM

23. And we could post that list under a bridge somewhere.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:47 PM

37. Put my name at the top, please. Next to Obama's & everyone else here on Earth.

No one thinks he won. He was more right, but that's not the same thing.

Any time you find yourself telling everyone else to shut up, you can probably bet that you're wrong.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:51 PM

39. I have an idea what Hissyspit wanted to say.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:54 PM

55. ah, lists. how democratic. Here is my take. the impression is more important than

the substance. It looked like he lost. Romney created that impression. That is as deadly as losing righteously.

Put me on the zombie list if you want but impressions are what we have here, the idea that Romney got momentum by 'kicking the president in the slats' which is what a pug told me. We can run in circles here but the impression was created and he has to work against it instead of building on an obvious victory. That he didn't even say 47% is unbelievable. I love Obama and will vote for him but truth is truth. Impressions, not substance bought the viewpoint that Romney won. He can't do that again.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #55)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:29 AM

87. Too much deception

built in to these politically adapted "debates" and then someone wants to to go back to the classic rules. Too late. JFK/Nixon set in this long reaction/manipulation and whether you believe the League of Women Voters holds the most honest arbiter handbook all that was abandoned long ago.

False impression, fraud and corporate media manipulation is the gameboard. You can play astounding chess on that tilt and over go the pieces.

Not understanding how that applies to the event is astounding foregetfulness. Both sides in this maze of illusion get so full of themselves they get lost in it regularly. It is now tilted so badly in favor of the GOP even a professional liar can't beat them at their own game. Dem primary debates and GOP debates are not just ideologically different although they both carry on as if the only thing you can do is untinkingly fail expectations.

There was literally nothing Romney could do other than he did. He was a strutting dead man doing a puppet show bluff. That it seemed to work- on Obama- was a setback we have seen before as in Reagan's betrayal of mental and physical incompetence against a polite, factual, energetic Mondale. But the debate game does not end there. The GOP has a whole preset operation of gaming the media and polls after the debate to make the insignificant real. Mondale was never given any bounce or chance. His victory was turned into a tragic attack on the unclad Emperor. The Dems then as now had nothing except a few standard cheerleading tacks against the machine and a well bludgeoned populace.

"poor debate performance" "mean Joe". Were these Big bird 47% gifts from dangerously deceitful, unlikeable pro-plutocrats/screw America candidates? Even people who don't believe the meme serve the meme by merely repeating the lunacy.

Could for once, instead of trying to beat these obnoxious liars at their own disgusting game, put an honest one back in its place? Or even face up to what is going on and how it is resented when the perpetual Dem straight man script is not strictly followed while Mr. Yuk Yuk star gets to throw pie in the face?

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Response to PATRICK (Reply #87)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 01:20 PM

97. the whining is indicative of their belief that Paulie lost. What is maddening about the

Romney thing is it gives the perception that a weak candidate triumphed over a strong president. impressions count.

I also like the complaining about little paulie. It makes me smile.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:10 PM

71. you can put me on your list then

 

I love it when "progressives" think McCarthy like tactics are a good idea! Yea, I'm going to be scared now to say what my opinion is now because of your list >

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:56 AM

94. Oh, by all means a list

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list — I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!

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Response to NoPasaran (Reply #94)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:09 PM

108. points to you!

This G&S fan applauds.

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Response to RepublicansRZombies (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:01 PM

105. LOL, and do what with the list? Ban them? Make fun of them?

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Response to Logical (Reply #105)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:27 PM

110. the list was to know who NOT to trust in the future, which 'leaders'

 

as in...which 'leaders' are actually misleading people...

After the debate, who on MSNBC jumped all over Obama for losing....

who pointed out that everything Romney said were lies, and he was rude and obnoxious and likely cheated?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:24 PM

3. I agree, Pres. Obama did not lose.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:28 PM

4. Agreed.

I will not call an outright liar a 'winner'.

Could the POTUS have countered the lies? Somewhat. Not to the degree that Biden slapped down Ryan.

But I think POTUS had room to let Romney do what Romney does best: Lie. And the media called out the POTUS for being weak.

VPOTUS took Ryan to the woodshed. And the media said VPOTUS was too aggressive.

I think POTUS will now dissect Romney with a quieter touch. And the media can spin themselves into the ground.

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Response to CakeGrrl (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:29 PM

5. +100

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:33 PM

6. if the overwhelming percentage of voters say you lost, then you lost

If your polls go down after a debate, you lost

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:42 PM

11. That is the long and the short of it. Case closed.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:43 PM

12. if the media fakes what the voters really think to manufacture consent

 

if they fake the polls (they wouldn't do that!) to promote their plan to manufacture consent

Then what do we really know about the truth anymore?

As Karl Rove says, they create reality now...

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:44 PM

13. Pretty much this.

It would be great to say "we won because we told the truth!" But that just isn't the case.

The "winner" is the guy who swayed more people. Unfortunately that was that jackass Romney.

Yeah, President Obama knows better how to debate him next time, but now we're fighting upstream.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:45 PM

14. If the overwhelming percentage of voters say the world is flat,

does that make it so?

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:55 PM

20. Yes, if the shape of the Earth was being determined by an election

Voters cannot, in reality, change the shape of the Earth.

They can, however, change the occupant of the white house.

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #14)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:24 PM

75. Bingo!!!

 

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Response to avaistheone1 (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 14, 2012, 03:29 PM

111. If the media tells us the overwhelming percentage of voters say the world is flat

 

Will we just automatically believe the media, knowing it is controlled by people who stand to make money off of pretending the world is flat?

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:48 PM

17. Can we be exactly sure the polls are only about the debate?

And voters swayed by a liar doesn't mean he "wins." It means those voters are pushovers. Who are these people who changed their minds or decided on that one debate? People who will change their minds easily again.

There's no "winner" except on Nov. 6

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Response to treestar (Reply #17)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 01:25 PM

98. Agree that the pliable voters only real decision occurs on Nov 6. nt.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:23 PM

31. Bullshit. The overwhelming majority of people believed Iraq was tied to the 9/11 attacks

Does that make it true?

Fuck no.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #31)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:35 PM

35. It's not ABOUT what's true.

Believe me, I wish it was. But debates aren't decided by who told the truth.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:33 PM

34. And how many ...

of those saying President Obama lost are saying so because they hear Democrats saying he lost, he was off his game, he didn't do X or Y?

If Democrats had started with "Wow, how do you debate with someone that everyone in the building knows is lying?"; rather than, "OH NOES", I suspect the number saying he lost would be less and the polls would reflect something different.

What do you think?

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:26 PM

47. who is doing the polling...? I'm not sure I trust polling anymore.

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:07 PM

86. Agreed...

 

Rationalization doesn't help anything or change any facts...

A loss is a loss...

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Response to scheming daemons (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:36 AM

88. sadly true

I hate it, i really do.

but, it has SIGNIFICANTLY altered the trajectory of a growing lead for our President to putting Romney in front.

I don't get it, I REALLY don't get it.

But, the reality of the NUMBERS is now undeniable.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:35 PM

7. Romney won the debate by lying

he is going to use that strategy again, no doubt about it. Will it work again? We don't know yet. Obama called him out after the debate, it was too late to affect that debate but maybe it will make Mitt's strategy less effective going forward. And maybe Obama will adjust his own strategy in the next debate. We will have to wait and see.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:37 PM

8. Eclectablog guy agrees..

Snippet..

2. PRESIDENT OBAMA IS NOW FREE TO BE AGGRESSIVE AND TO CALL OUT ROMNEY’S LIES IN THE NEXT DEBATE
Now that the pundits have all made President Obama out as the guy who took a beating on national television and the entire country wonders why he wasn’t more aggressive, they are actually expecting him to be more aggressive now. His supporters WANT him to and all those undecided folks out there feel he’s justified so, when he does go after Romney in debate number two, it’s not going be the demerit that it would have been the first time. In the next debate, when Mitt Romney tells lie after lie, you can expect a more forceful push back by the President.

The Obama campaign is already signalling that they plan to do just that:


http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/10/really-democrats-have-you-learned-so-little-about-barack-obama-in-five-years.html

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:42 PM

9. Because he didn't win it, either.

For someone with his intellect and grasp of grammar, that's about the same as a loss.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:42 PM

10. yes obama did`t lose the debate

it was`t even that close.

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Response to madrchsod (Reply #10)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:57 PM

58. "did't" ????? nt

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:46 PM

15. I don't remember in 2008 the debates being such a big deal

and who "won" them. Since there is no way to score, there is no way to declare a winner in any case. That's where the pundits show they are not really thoughtful commentators. All they could talk about was style and no substance. The idea of anyone winning these is ridiculous either way.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 05:47 PM

16. You LOSE a debate when the other side benefits more from the F'ing debate

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:28 PM

78. You mean you LOSE a debate when the crowd changes the rules of engagement

 

from "who spoke the most facts and the least falsehoods?" (the classic standard of winning a debate) to "who had the most flash?"

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #78)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:40 AM

89. Who the hell cares about the bullshit you're listing? This election is about WINNING

I'm not crazy about what the American people went for, but your moral indignation and a handful of quarters still won't get you on the New York Subway.

I don't fucking give one good G** D*** about how it was done.

You lose a debate when the race changes because you couldn't come up with the most simple responses to the most obvious and foreseeable tactic and the perception of you as a candidate and your opponent as a candidate change, and not in your favor.

It's like people don't understand what our actual fucking goal is on November 6th.

It's Victory, in case anyone needed a cheat sheet. Not a whole bunch of bullcrap whiny complaints.

Election stealing is a legitimate complaint. "My opponent got away with a lot of stuff in a debate because I was too weak to stand up to him"? That is whiny bullcrap. And it's useless.

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Response to jsmirman (Reply #89)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:50 AM

92. Ah, the ever-immature "MMA Ape Beatdown" style of debate

 

where the truth falls to second place against style and poise.

Gotcha.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #92)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:56 AM

93. Why are you playing at nonsense? Figure out the messages that win and WIN

Whining about unfairness about stuff that just sort of happened (who knew Lehrer would be THAT pathetic) is pointless.

The only truth will be who has the right to be in the Oval Office in January of 2013. That's it.

And every other race I'd like to win, that lukewarm Obama has severely compromised now.

But I want a win, and trying to move the pieces back around into different spots on the chessboard for a game that's already been played - silly nonsense.

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Response to jsmirman (Reply #93)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 08:17 AM

95. I get it, you stand by troglodyte rules of debating. No need to repeat yourself.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:00 PM

21. In the President's own words, why he lost.

(1) Obama Now Realizes How Badly He Lost the Debate Here he said he choked.
(2) Obama says he was 'too polite' toward Romney in first debate He was too polite.

Look, even President Obama knows he lost the debate. He says he will not make that mistake again.

It is time to let this go and move on. Sometimes we have to roll with the punches and go on to the next fight.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #21)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:02 PM

22. So you trust someone that bad at debating to analyze who won a debate?

<joke>

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:12 PM

25. Hey, at least Obama knows what the truth is.

Romney on the other hand, couldn't find the truth with both hands if it was stapled to this butt.

Personally, i think w all need to move on to the next fight. Living in denial is both pointless and soggy.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #22)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:18 PM

29. Ha! Ha! Good one!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:03 PM

24. Thank you.

When people keep repeating the RW meme that changes goal posts where bashing the opponent is "leadership" when their side does it but is "bullying" when your side does it, and your own so-called "progressive" media pundits agree, then the circular firing squad mentality is created. Can you imagine if Obama came out like a Biden? The pile-on would be historically viscous.

I expect Obama will calibrate to the middle of the extremes.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:15 PM

26. Damn right. Sometimes I think people are deaf. Demoralization leads to lose.Obama won.

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #26)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:17 PM

27. Denial leads to loss, too. Obama freely admits he lost the debate. What's the problem with that?

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Response to randome (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:31 PM

33. Romney said he was going to use zingers. did he? (no he didn't.)

 

simple first grade logic.

simple rope a dope.
feign for the first 14 and take the punches.
then knock out on 11/6/2012

but then people have doubted him since day one.
and had egg on their face each time they doubted him

Just ask President Hillary44...she can share a funny with us when she is Hillary45 come 1/2017 and looks back on 2008.

and remember, in past elections, even Barry Goldwater, Bob Dole, Mike Dukakis, and Walter Mondale and George McGovern thought a last month surge they felt, was going to mean victory, only to get their asses kicked by the eventual winner.

rememeber, a real man allows a bully to kick sand in their face without feeling they are nothing, and then return another day, using their smarts, instead of their fists.

Mitt shot his load. All he has left are blanks. Obama is Toto. He pulled the curtain on the whole fascade.



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Response to Zalatix (Original post)


Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:19 PM

30. yes he did

because he was unprepared to DEAL with those lies, ESPECIALLY knowing the fucking MEDIA will not deal with those lies

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:46 PM

36. Oh for Pete's sake. Yes, he did. Stop telling people what to think & say.

Really, do we have to have this conversation every SINGLE time something doesn't reflect well on Obama? It's not our jobs as citizens or Democrats to "spin" things. It's a valid point that Romney lied his tail off, but a lie unanswered becomes the truth.

Obama stared at his shoes. He mumbled. He hesitated. He cast about. He did not even respond to Romney repeating the "$716 billion cut from Medicare" line 9,000 times.

You can't do that in a debate and "win" under any rubric.

Romney came off looking far better than he had a right to, and Obama had the ability and the responsibility to stop him. It's one thing to point out that Romney was dishonest, but it's another to ignore the fact that Obama did nothing to counter it effectively.

We're supposed to be the ones who are smarter than this.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:49 PM

38. Well said.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:52 PM

54. agreed! The OP is missing the point entirely, it's not about Mitt's lies!

...it's about an unexpectedly poor performance by Obama which has led to the race now becoming closer.

It matters not that we on DU see through Mitt's bullshit: DU will not win the election for Obama! Yet a complacent attitude could lose it.

Thankfully, Obama (I believe) got the message and will be on his game Tuesday. He needs to WIN (even if in performance) so we DEMS can win in a month. He sure as fuck better see he lost, because a repeat of his "bad night" could be a deal breaker for our chances.

edit: Now Biden won! Obama got some reminders on how to kick ass in debate last night

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #36)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:07 PM

63. Obama is human. He had a bad night. The numbers tell the story. I'm still voting for him. Biden won

Biden won last night.

I don't need a pundit tell me who I liked in a debate. Neither do most people.

There's no shame in having a bad night. He admitted he had a bad night. He's moving on to the next one.

I think the debates are stupid, anyway.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 06:55 PM

40. i think the cheat sheet part has been debunked,

but otherwise i agree and have been saying it for a week. you can't WIN on lies. it disqualifies.
i understand that the president was not at his best, but romney brought nothing but deceit and i will not concede the win under those circumstances. i don't think anyone should.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:11 PM

42. He lost the debate by not calling them lies, just looks at the polls if you need proof

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:16 PM

43. That's what I keep sayin'. Obama acted calm, cool, collected! Rmoney acted like a cracked-out bully!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:19 PM

44. My two cents:

What President Obama "lost" was the media spin that continues to this day. I recorded the debate but purposely did not watch it until AFTER I watched the "LIBERAL" media on MSNBC spin it. Tweety did more damage to the poll numbers than Mitt. I watched the President's jaw clenching and knew he wanted to "attack" but evidently, that was not how he and his advisors decided to play it.

If RawMoney gets elected, it will be because the majority of my fellow Americans are even dumber than I think they are (DU'ers not included in that assessment) and I'm moving to Botswana.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:21 PM

45. no doubt God is more pleased with Barack Obama's performance than with Mitt Romney's - but most of

the public who saw the debate think Mitt Romney won it and Barack Obama lost it and this has greatly strengthened the Mitt Romney campaign and weakened the Obama campaign. I doubt that it will cost him the election. But it might.


Uncertainty, in the presence of vivid hopes and fears, is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales. - Bertrand Russell

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:25 PM

46. Republicans know how to push back and defend their own.

Democrats slam their ONLY HOPE over the head for "not quite performing to our standards".

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:26 PM

48. O needs to be aggressive... people here like ass kickings

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:36 PM

49. Does it MATTER?

If we all agreed, would it change ANYTHING? Will Obama suddenly be leading in the polls again? What the hell do you want, consensus?

Will a consensus of DUers help?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:42 PM

50. I think Obama won,

he could have done better by pointing out Romney lies. It is disgraceful that Romney can lie and still be in the running for President. The News media said he lost, MSNBC was having a fit all except "the Rev".

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:44 PM

51. Once upon a time a couple of priests, who had vowed to never


touch a woman, saw a woman in trouble trying to cross a deep stream. One of them took her in his arms and carried her to the other bank, sat her down, and walked on with his friend.

Some time later the other priest started carrying on about their rules, chastising him for acting as he did, and asked "What about your vows never to do that?"

The other priest looked at him and said "Are you still carrying her? I put her down back at the stream".


Let it go...what happens from now on out is more important.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:44 PM

52. No, he didn't...

But in the frame of popular opinion, he got his ass whooped. He also had it whooped by the media. I also disagree with the rope-a-dope mentality. I think the President just had a very terrible debate and got some terrible advice in respect to the strategy he employed. Issues like Benghazi are really starting to hurt the President amongst the wishy-washy low information voters (a.k.a. stupid people).

Romney's starting to lead in the polls and the bounce is not evaporating. It's clearly a result of the debate. Biden's performance was stellar, but VP debates don't turn the tide.

IMO, Obama needs the performance of his life in the town hall setting to stop the bleeding. It's amazing to me that one debate has had this kind of effect, but the entire race is starting to head towards toss-up.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:51 PM

53. I wish Obama didn't say he didn't do well

He was not happy about his performance.

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Response to babsbunny (Reply #53)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:56 PM

57. He had to!

The majority of people think he had a bad performance. If he didn't say otherwise, people would consider it disingenuous. His information was there, but his performance was not. Debates are as much theatrics as it is content. Obama was limp and too stuffy. He never brought up 47% (I think he was told not to) and he did not challenge Romney at all. It was a shocking performance in that respect.

This next debate he has to walk a fine line because of the format. Town halls are a different beast. I think we're waiting for the last debate for him to unload.

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Response to handsofthedevil (Reply #57)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:42 PM

84. If indeed a handler...

.. told him not to bring up the 47%, that handler should be FIRED.

This is not a gentlemens sport, especially with Romney.

Obama better go for the jugular or he is in trouble.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 07:54 PM

56. thank you nt

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:03 PM

59. Its a loss when you don't correct the BS spewed by the other side.

Don't worry he learned his lesson and won't let it happen again.


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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:04 PM

60. The truth is your friend. If the purpose of a debate...

is to explain to the public your positions on issues - and you don't do that clearly - and to point out the other guy's lies and negatives in their positions and plans - and you don't do that clearly.....and the voters decide that they want to vote for the other guy because of that debate....you've lost the debate.

If your criteria is that you had the more honorable demeanor, positions, honesty, and you think you did do that, then you won.

It all depends on your definition.

But to hide from the truth is never a good idea, IMO. You can't move forward, if you don't know where you've been.

The numbers tell the story. It's pretty much acknowledged across the country that Obama didn't do well, and the numbers reflect that. People who disagree with you aren't en masse being fooled, or else they wouldn't disagree with you. They disagree with you.

I think Biden definitely won last night, as surely as Obama did not win last week. I don't need a pundit to tell me what to think. I have eyes, ears, and I saw the debate. It didn't change my vote, of course. He had a bad night. He IS human.


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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:05 PM

61. Meh. Denial doesn't alter reality. That said, the debate hardly makes the election. (nt)

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:05 PM

62. Accept it, he lost

He didn't call mitt's bs out and he seemed disinterested in the debate. Not accepting reality is right-wing territory.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:10 PM

64. If more undecideds started leaning toward Romney than Obama...

...then, for all practical purposes, Obama lost the debate. Even if Romney, in effect, won by cheating. (Which Obama should have called him on. Heck, even I believed a couple of the lies, because Obama didn't come back and say they weren't true!)

Maybe you're scoring the way a judge would on a High School debate team. In that case, maybe you have an argument that Romney didn't win. But in this case, the task was not to "win on points" but to persuade more of the persuadable. By that measure, based on how the polls shifted, I think it's fair to say that Obama lost.

To me, he looked like a schoolboy being scolded up there. If I knew nothing more that what I saw at the debate, I'd probably vote for Romney! Luckily, I know better.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:14 PM

65. When you don't COUNTER those lies and nonsense, you sure as fuck DO lose it.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:26 PM

66. It doesn't matter he won or lost- there was a measureable effect afterward...

 

that effect was an increase support for Romney. Are they correlated? how else can you explain?

Let's be empirical and live with evidence. Leave the alter-reality style for the repubs.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:41 PM

67. He lost by any objective standard IMHO

 

Sure, there is some subjectivity involved, but he lost and to me it was very clear. But of course anyone can think anything they like, for example, some people think Justin Bieber is a musical genius or so on, and will never be convinced otherwise.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #67)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:00 PM

104. You, my dear quinnox, are not Belieber.

But you are right about the debate.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:45 PM

68. They got the effect they wanted and

are going to milk it.

Romney's debate bounce is bullshit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251138192

Let's see if Biden's win has an effect. They're already dampening its impact because CNN and some pundits gave it to Ryan.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 08:47 PM

69. ABSOLUTELY correct, he didn't lose. nt

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:03 PM

70. To 500,000,000th vanity thread on this same subject

BULLSHIT

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:14 PM

72. I agree. The LIAR lost!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:16 PM

73. it's the deniers keeping it alive...

Obama lost - even he and Joe know it

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:16 PM

74. Once upon a time we had a media that would have ripped a liar like Romney to shreds....

....and there would have been no reasonable doubt as to who won the debate.

Unfortunately, the media "stars" we have today are on the conservative corporate payroll and the chances of getting an honest commentary are about as good as discovering kangaroos on Mars.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #74)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:26 PM

76. Post of the day. The media really dropped the ball.

 

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #74)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:32 PM

80. when no one in the media defended Dan Rather, it was the end.

 

bunch of cowards more concerned with Janet Jackson's "malfunction" than with the truth of what was in Bush's past (which after all was said and done, no one actually suggested the words in the memos were false, just a rightwing character asssassination that never was proven, but by then Dan was canned and no one but Martha had his back.

Shame on CBS
shame on 60 minutes(in all irony on that)
shame on his bosses

and we were the losers.

(and of course the other talking heads made millions off of mocking people like Dennis Kucinich in debates by wasting America's time talking about UFOs(referring to Russert)

and Brokaw made millions with books on the greatest generation.

Plants at the NY Times (blair) and Judith Miller.

and corporations buying all the news that is now not fit to print

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #74)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:34 PM

81. And Obama had never seen television before?

The media is the water in which politicians swim. A politician's job is to get good coverage.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #81)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:38 PM

99. Do you not understand what's happening to the media?....

...How do you propose that the President get good coverage when the mainstream media is bought and paid for by the very large conservative right-wing corporations that own them?

Just curious, but how many comments critical of the President do you intend to post? Are you trying to run off Obama supporters?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #99)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:44 PM

100. So your suggestion is that we just don't win any elections

That is what you are saying. Since there is no way for the president to get good coverage, why even bother having an election?

You don't seem to realize that your viewpoint is much more dispiriting than mine.

You are the one driving off Democrats. "It's fixed people... Obama won the debate but through some sort of fraud it became one of the most damaging debate losses we've ever seen."

In my world where Obama isn't a pitiful child to make excuses for Obama can win a debate.

In your world it is impossible for him to win a debate.

Who's the downer here?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:28 PM

77. R#40 & K for, thanx!1 nt/

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:32 PM

79. Agree, and pisses me off to keep hearing the 'meme' even from our friends.

Doing my best to ignore.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:37 PM

82. If you ace the SAT, but are caught with a cheat sheet containing all the answers,

you are automatically disqualified, and fail with a zero score.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 09:37 PM

83. Is this sub-debate really still going on?

What is the motivation for this continual debate at this time?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2012, 10:05 PM

85. Obama didn't DEBATE. He just made statements.

He didn't refute anything Romney said.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:45 AM

90. Obama didn't lose the debate...

he came in second.

Get over it and hope that the President brings his "A Game" for the next round.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 07:46 AM

91. You may be right! He let Romney

tell a lot of lies, but the next debate may show the country that Romney is the biggest flip flopper we ever seen.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 12:06 PM

96. Because it was NOT a "debate".

The last "Presidential Debate" in the USA was held in 1984,
and was hosted by The League of Women's Voters.

The League of Women's Voters officially declined to host the 1988 "debates" because of demands made by the Campaign Marketing teams of BOTH Political Parties.
"
The League of Women Voters is withdrawing sponsorship of the presidential debates...because the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter. It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and answers to tough questions. The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public.
—League President Nancy M. Neuman, LWV October 03, 1988


What we have today are Television Media/Campaign Events masquerading as "debates",
and, like American Idol, whoever "they" want to win, WINS!!!!
DRAMA, Jerry Springer Manufactured Controversy, and maintaining the illusion of a Horse Race are much more important to The MEDIA than boring stuff like Policy, Honesty, Accuracy, History, and Good Judgement.

Wanna know WHY President Obama "LOST"?
He was pulling too far ahead in the polls.



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.


Solidarity!



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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:55 PM

101. Rec # 50..

You'd have to use debate rules from another planet (or Rush Limbaugh's house, but maybe that's redundant) to conclude that Romney won. Under conventional rules, if you lie, you lose.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:58 PM

102. I agree with you!

But I think the President was stunned by the out and right lies that Romney was saying!

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 04:59 PM

103. You sound like those Republican senators saying "It's not about sex"

You wouldn't have had to post this thread if Obama hadn't lost that debate. The only thing that matters is public perception, particularly in a democracy. The task at hand is Obama winning (or at least tying in) the next debate. This will be particularly true if he calls out Romney on all his bullshit and flimflammery.

But chasing after an argument we've already lost won't do you any good. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this. But I'm serious about being on the reality-based side of life.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:06 PM

106. Dr. Dean said Obama didn't lose the debate.

I never thought Obama lost the debate.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Sat Oct 13, 2012, 05:07 PM

107. rMoney "won" that debate like Lance Armstrong "won" the Tour de France

Lance juiced himself up with all sorts of illegal chemistry to win his cycling races.

rMoney juiced himself up with a Gish Gallop of lies, and in my view, should be disqualified.

Al Sharpton said it right!

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