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Member since: Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:49 PM
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Sanders has taken money from those same banks

You fault Clinton for taking money from banks, but Bernie Sanders has been hosting fundraisers with Wall Street big wigs ever since he entered the senate. He has pretended not to take money from Wall Street or to have super pacs, but the fact he is does. http://time.com/4261350/bernie-sanders-super-pac-alaska-millenials/ http://www.wsj.com/articles/sanders-record-filings-show-benefits-from-super-pacs-links-to-wall-street-donors-1455300881 http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/sanders-democratic-fundraisers/

Bernie has built a campaign around slogans that do not hold up to scrutiny. He has deliberately made the issue of campaign finance small, trivialized it by pretending the entire thing rests of Clinton earning money from speeches to Goldman Sachs, like this one:

If, however, one cares about more than demonizing Clinton in order to promote Bernie's career and/or GOP electoral prospects, then one has to examine policy. The fact is, Clinton takes that policies about both campaign finance reform and financial regulation FAR more seriously than Sanders, as is evidenced by her substantive policy positions: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/plan-raise-american-incomes/

She also seeks to promote small business, something Bernie has paid no attention to: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/small-business/

Clinton didn't announce before an editorial board that people losing businesses, jobs, or access to credit wasn't her problem. Bernie just did. He demonstrated he really doesn't care. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306

If the actual issue is campaign finance reform, Bernie falls short for a number of reasons, principally because he has shown himself unwilling to follow the law as it currently exists and has been cited by the FEC with a staggering, record number of violations. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511645580

I happen to believe policy--actually making concrete changes to improve the country--matter more than campaign slogans, even those by Sanders, that tap so successfully into the understandable anger many Americans feel about the economic collapse of the 2008 and the uneven recovery since. However, that collapse was due to GOP policies under Bush, not Hillary Clinton's speeches or fundraising. Ultimately, if the goal is to change the situation, talk alone won't do it. Sanders demonstrates that he doesn't take his own campaign slogans seriously enough to develop specific policies that deal with the problems he identifies. His interview before the NY Daily News Editorial board shows that quite clearly. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/transcript-bernie-sanders-meets-news-editorial-board-article-1.2588306 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/05/this-new-york-daily-news-interview-was-pretty-close-to-a-disaster-for-bernie-sanders/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/bernie-sanderss-rough-ride-with-the-daily-news/476919/

I think the future of the country too important to ignore policy in favor of campaign slogans.

March 31 response by Sanders campaign to FEC

This is the second response by the Sanders campaign that responds to the second of two letters from the FEC citing a long list of violations. http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/917/201603319012213917/201603319012213917.pdf
The letter from Susan Jackson is in response to this specific FEC letter, with 95 pages of violations. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/politics/2016/02/26/feds-flag-bernie-sanders-campaign-contributions/80985898/

I provided the context for this document in this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511628659

Despite allegations that I was telling "lies," the response by the Sanders campaign treasurer Susan Jackson confirms that there were in fact improper donations from foreign nationals and that the campaign is refunding that money.

This is the second response by Jackson on behalf of the Sanders campaign, the first filed electronically, http://docquery.fec.gov/dcdev/fectxt/1056008.txt (which can be accessed on this link under "view micellaneous document" http://docquery.fec.gov/cgi-bin/forms/C00577130/1056008/)
In response to a separate letter from the FEC citing violations of campaign finance law: http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/988/201602110300034988/201602110300034988.pdf

Two separate letters from the FEC citing campaign finance violations and two separate responses from the campaign treasurer.

The links go to the FEC site

that is why I provided it. Go to the FEC site yourself.

I didn't post anything from Project Veritas or James O'Keefe. That a blog reports the existence of a Veritas lawsuit doesn't nullify the fact they link to the FEC. Any number of reputable sources have written about the Project Veritas case. Some of them include: The Union Leader, Australian Newspapers
and a series of other publications regular posted by Sanders supporters on DU: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=veritas+lawsuit+australian+labor+party+sanders

Reporting it doesn't mean they are the same as Veritas. Of course you have to know that, but your point is to distract from the factual evidence that links to the FEC. Here are the documents, one of which I directly linked above and was likewise linked to in the NY Times piece: http://docquery.fec.gov/pdf/988/201602110300034988/201602110300034988.pdf

If you had bothered to read the articles, you would have seen the links to the source material, but then you aren't interested in knowing the facts at issue, are you?

I'm sorry I didn't rely on Breitbart or the Daily Caller, as in the threads you prefer. People here every day post anti-Clinton stuff straight from the GOP and you never complain.

As for what I already know, I rarely read your posts because you deal entirely in ad hominems and personal attacks. You never engage in any substantive discussion of issues. Lots of links don't make up for the fact you show a willful contempt for evidence. Moreover, your entire argument relies on the claim that because a publication posted an article about Veritas makes them the same. If that claim were applied across the board, it would invalidate New Hampshire's major newspaper and by extension every publication that ever wrote about unsavory groups. Additionally, the evidence doesn't rely on the narrative authority of that blog. The blog simply serves to provide links to the FEC site. Your argument fails completely.

Everything I posted is true, as PRIMARY documents from the FEC reveal. What is also true is you don't care so you engage in your transparent game of distraction. No amount of misdirection changes the fact that the FEC documentation exists, that his campaign acknowledges the violation in their letter of response. (There was another response due on 3/31, which if the Sanders campaign complies should be posted on the FEC site next week). There are also links above from respected sources like the NYTimes, Time and the Wall Street Journal, which again obviously can't compare to the rigor of Michelle Malkin, Anne Coulter, Breitbart, the Daily Caller, the Free Beacon, and the other right-wing sources so popular among Sanders supporters looking to spread specious dirt on the presumptive Democratic nominee.

The time it's taken me to provide links that you will never read is why I seldom read your posts. For you, political discourse is a game of misdirection intended to obfuscate rather than illuminate.

Hillary Clinton follows campaign finance law. Bernie Sanders breaks it

Sanders' campaign has accepted over $23 million in ILLEGAL campaign contributions. The FEC cited the campaign for those violations in February, in two separate letters sent to his campaign treasurer, Shelia Jackson. At least one of Jackson's responses has been made public and can be read via links in the final article listed below.


The law prohibits candidates from accepting donations that total over $2700 in a single campaign cycle. The letters from the FEC show infractions such as single checks of $5,000 or $12,000, substantially over the legal limit. It also shows multiple donations of $27 on a single day, which isn't illegal if they don't exceed $2700 but in a number of cases they do.

Claims that Clinton is corrupt or more dishonest than Sanders are not supported by evidence. Bernie's announcing something over and over again doesn't make it true. Informed voters--human beings who think critically--do not accept a politician's slogans as fact without examining them. The evidence does not support Bernie's claims that is is better than Clinton on campaign finance because he does not even follow the existing law, meager as it is.

At the very least, the FEC violations, more than any candidate in history, show a stunning level of incompetence. How is it possible to appoint a campaign treasurer who is so lax on following federal law that she would submit listings for single checks that exceed federal limits? How is it possible not to have software that tracks donation limits by individual contributors, particularly when the candidate has a war chest well over a $100 million dollars in size? How can someone who can't run a campaign according to the law be trusted with the federal budget?

The infractions above can be explained as the result of incompetence rather than dishonesty. Yet that doesn't hold for all of his claims. For months now he has been announcing he doesn't have super pacs and doesn't take money from Wall Street. Only that too turns out to be false. http://time.com/4261350/bernie-sanders-super-pac-alaska-millenials/ http://www.wsj.com/articles/sanders-record-filings-show-benefits-from-super-pacs-links-to-wall-street-donors-1455300881

Bernie does not have more integrity than Hillary Clinton, not even close. He has a lower scale of truth telling on Politifact http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/
While key claims about his relationship to super pacs and funders has been proven false, as the links in the paragraphs above demonstrate.

Rather than asking their own candidate about his the revelations concerning his super pac or FEC violations, they post about "Hillary's scream," demonstrating they think she has no right to challenge false character assassination directed against her. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/01/why-hillary-clinton-is-justifiably-annoyed-by-critiques-of-her-big-oil-fundraising/?postshare=8651459544364948&tid=ss_fb
They denounce the majority of Democratic voters as "uninformed" for failing to take Bernie's campaign slogans as fact, while they pointedly refuse to as much as examine any independent or documentary evidence because ultimately is it they who willfully seek to remain misinformed.

Now, I know for a fact very few Sanders supporters will examine the FEC evidence or articles about Bernie's super pac because the sad fact is too many simply don't care. I think that says a great deal about the support for Bernie's candidacy and how little of it has to do with evidence, policy, or actual differences on issues.

A jury can hide this post, fully supported with evidence and sources--including links to primary documents--but that won't make the truth go away. Facts are what they are, and Bernie does not live up to billing.

What doesn't jibe?

Like claiming over and over again not to have a super pac, while actually having one? Is that what you mean by actions not corresponding to rhetoric? http://time.com/4261350/bernie-sanders-super-pac-alaska-millenials/

Or claiming not to raise money from Wall Street while hosting fundraisers for those very investment banks he claims not to have anything to do with? http://time.com/4261350/bernie-sanders-super-pac-alaska-millenials/

Or being cited repeatedly by the FEC for accepting what totals over $23 million in illegal campaign contributions?

Is that the kind of thing you mean?

Meanwhile, the FEC has sited the Sanders campaign for $23 million in illegal campaign contributions

Those aren't questionable. They are violations of the law. http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/02/12/f-e-c-tells-sanders-campaign-that-some-donors-may-have-given-too-much/?_r=4

Some of the sources above provide links to the FEC sites where you can see the letters set by the FEC and the response by the Sanders Campaign Treasurer, Susan Jackson. The response to the second round of violations is due to the FEC today. They are, in all likelihood, going to have to refund even more of the illegal donations they accepted.

You can post videos about "questionable" donations to Clinton all day long, and they don't come close to actual documented violations of federal election law by the Sanders campaign.

How about providing some evidence for that?

It's not like Sanders message is particularly complex. He's repeated it ad nauseum. I dare say there are few people in this country who couldn't recite it by now.

I've done a lot of get out the vote activities and made phone calls to multiple states, and I have yet to encounter one person who doesn't know who Bernie Sanders is. On the other hand, I have yet to encounter a high-profile Sanders supporter on this site who has bothered to inform themselves about Clinton's policy positions. In fact, many pointedly refuse to look at her issues page. Instead, they habitually make up crap they project onto her.

Clinton is exponentially more qualified than Sanders. For you to attribute her success to her "husband's coat tails" is more of the gender-based condescension that is typical in this election. Considering her opponent has only one major legislative accomplishment in 25 years in federal office, the dismissal of her qualifications is absurd. It's not everyone who can boast the single lowest rating in bipartisanship of anyone in the Senate. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357/report-card/2015
But your claim is Americans voters are just too stupid to know how much better he is than Clinton.

The projection around here is phenomenal.

When I post something negative about Sanders, I provide evidence, something Clinton's detractors rarely if ever do (internet memes and opinion pieces are not evidence), principally because they haven't shown enough interest in policy to even bother informing themselves on what she actually proposes. Sanders supporters use juries to hide that evidence, whether it is links to Sanders voting record, articles about his support for Lockheed Martin and big sugar, or they call people Nazis (as was done to me) for daring to post about his record on guns.

We haven't seen any concern from Sanders supporters about the disclosures that he has not been truthful about not having Super pacs http://time.com/4261350/bernie-sanders-super-pac-alaska-millenials/
About the FEC citation of $23 million in excess campaign contributions http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/02/12/f-e-c-tells-sanders-campaign-that-some-donors-may-have-given-too-much/?_r=4
(whether you like the above source is irrelevant. It links to the actual letters from the FEC and from Sanders Campaign Treasurer in response).

Or his campaign manager's announcement of a strategy for him to seize control of the nomination against the popular will of the electorate. http://www.ibtimes.com/bernie-sanders-fantasy-campaign-hopes-win-hillary-clintons-pledged-delegates-unlikely-2338452

Yesterday someone actually got a hide for criticizing Tad Devine. Apparently a political operative making huge amounts of money off campaign contributions is sacrosanct and that a lowly citizen has no right to criticize him without facing censure. The rich are to be protected at all costs, as long as they are affiliated with Bernie. The poor and working Americans must be punished if they fail to prostrate themselves before Bernie and the "progressives" convinced of their inherent superiority.

There aren't scores of articles about Clinton supporters bullying civil rights activists, super delegates, ordinary voters or progressive politicians. That is the reputation of another candidate whose run is coming to a close.

That said, this OP isn't about the awful reputation of Clinton supporters. It's about a rich person talking about putting a horrendous right-wing billionaire in office in order to spawn a "revolution." The responses in defense of Sarandon demonstrate that the rhetoric about the 99-1 percent we have heard for months and months now isn't meant to be taken seriously, and that rich people who support Bernie's career are just too important to be criticized. In other words, they expose hypocrisy of epic dimensions.

You choose to condemn Democratic voters, those who support the candidate will be the nominee. Not the neonazis, Islamophobes and homohobes who support Trump, but Democrats. That is who you despise, that is who some responding to this thread resent. Strip away the rights of the majority, no problem. Stump for a billionaire, no problem. But vote for a a Democrat, that is unforgivable.

I finally read a post in this thread that was actually persuasive in advocating for Sanders. Rather than insulting Democrats for disagreeing with him, he talked about his own life experiences and why Bernie's campaign meant so much to him. If more people had been doing that since the beginning of his campaign, they might have succeeded in attracting supporters. Instead, too many have spent the entire time insulting other Democrats, insisting they were inferior for caring about issues like equal rights, reproductive rights and voting rights. They have assailed one progressive public figure, advocacy organization, union, and civil rights activist after another for daring to endorse or speak favorably of Clinton. None of that has worked, yet they've continued to engage in it relentlessly, now taking their efforts to superdelegates to try to intimidate them into supporting someone who trails by 2.5 million in the popular vote. Yet never have they tried anything approaching positive persuasion. That is why they, and not Clinton supporters, have been the subject of scores of articles expressing alarm at their tactics. The reputation is theirs, and your post is oddly detached from that reality.

I'm ready for a revolution

Susan Sarandon says Donald Trump would be better for America then Clinton because Trump will make it more likely for a revolution to occur. It would seem Sarandon doesn't believe the poor currently suffer enough to suit her, and that she wants to make their lives as miserable as possible to shock them into putting her guy into power. (Because revolutions really work that way. I suppose you've spent your life reading movie scripts you might think they do).

Why wait? I say we start the revolution right now. Not the revolution of campaign slogans that are about installing one man as head of the capitalist state. No, a real social revolution that forcibly redistributes wealth from the rich to the poor. I can think of no better place to start than one of Sarandon's many multi-million dollar homes.

Now, I'm not sure exactly how many she has. She has three apartments in New York City. http://www.nbclosangeles.com/blogs/open-house/Susan-Sarandon-Snatches-Up-Third-NYC-Property--138832289.html This sprawling $1.75 million estate in Pound Ridge, NY. http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/susan-sarandon-tim-robbins-house/view/bing/

She has another home in Los Angeles. http://www.elledecor.com/celebrity-style/celebrity-homes/news/a6310/eva-amurri-martino-home/

There may be more, but I say the revolution should start at her $11.9 million California home here:

12 bathrooms. I think that is about the number of bathrooms on this side of my entire block. My entire lot would fit in her kitchen.

So what is a revolutionary doing with five plus homes, you might ask? Good question. How do you suppose someone in that position wishes for life to become more arduous for the most vulnerable Americans so that they do her political bidding?

Well, Susan. You say you want a revolution. I say we start at your $11.9 million dollar home and move on to the others. There is space to house hundreds of families there. That's what happens to estates in real socialist revolutions. People like you lose their wealth and are put to work doing honest labor.

So why wait for your guy Trump to start the revolution? Now is the time.

For the irony impaired, this is parody. I am not actually advocating violence. However revolution is in fact violent upheaval. The super rich like Sarandon ought to be careful what they wish for.

Earning a salary that is legal is not corruption

It is not illegal and it is not corrupt. If people actually gave a shit about corporate influence, they wouldn't defend Bernie's on again, off again support of blanket immunity for gun corporations, or the $1 trillion plus to Lockheed Martin.

They wouldn't ignore his fundraising from Wall Street investment banks or his claims to not have super pacs when he has them.

That people argue that Clinton is corrupt for earning money is in fact part of an atmosphere of vilification that is sexist. That they insist women who support her of voting "for the vagina," when Clinton is in fact an extremely well qualified candidate and her competitor has the second worst record in congress in terms of legislative accomplishments most certainly is sexist. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357/report-card/2015

Her detractors refuse to as much as look at her policy positions. That is how little they care about actual issues.

That Clinton is vilified more than Republicans and murderous dictators show that the vitriol against her has nothing to do with her actual record or policy proposals and everything to do with what she represents: a woman who seeks to be president, following on the heels of an African American president. A number of Democratic voters see what is going on, which may be why people of color and especially African American women are resounding supporting Clinton with their votes.

Then when we see people who claim to care about progressive principles argue that Trump would be better, it exposes precisely what their goals truly are.
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