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Member since: Sat Sep 15, 2012, 01:49 PM
Number of posts: 32,355

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Women are empowered, but not allowed to choose to be free from violence

Because men find it erotic and you think 95% of women do because you saw it in a porno.

That porn isn't about light spanking. That is pure bullshit. I did a Google Search yesterday and found ads for "Indian gang rape, " "drunk girls raped," "military women raped," "basement sex" with women locked in cellars, a la Ariel Castro. That is geared for men who see a report of a woman gang raped and killed in India and think, "that sounds hot, I need to find some porn for that." Those were the first ads that came up when I did a search for rape porn, meaning they were the moist popular results. No one is stupid enough to believe that porn is about "light spanking." And really, I could care less what anyone you have sex with wants. Why you think your sex life has any relevance here, I can't begin to imagine. Except you are determined to use it to justify rape porn, and not just porn, actual real life violence that women like me are supposed to find erotic because you saw it in a porno.

You claim you see women are empowered individuals, yet you are here insisting that we in this safe haven group have no right to be free from your efforts to justify violence, not just in porn, but in our lives. How is it that this so called respect you have for "empowered women" only applies to those who are targets of male violence and not those of us who insist we will not have that in our lives? You don't respect women's choices. You insist women behave as you want. You have come here to ridicule women who have the audacity to not want to be beaten for male pleasure and don't welcome the active propagation of rape culture.

I'm a hypocrite because I don't want to revisit the rape and domestic battery I've experienced in my life. But the porno you saw said women enjoy pain, so I should what. . . lay back and enjoy it? You know everything there is to know about women, enough to determine my rights and choices inconsequential.

You of course wouldn't be a hypocrite for having a post in your journal about labor rights yet giving not one iota of concerns for the rights of the women in porn. When faced with something important such as your sexual excitement, their working conditions no longer are relevant. They choose that work, just like Walmart workers choose to go hungry on Thanksgiving. They choose to be beaten all day long, just factory workers choose to incur injuries on the job. Women in porn choose to incur STDs, just like coal miners choose to develop black lung. Except of course when the women don't choose, when millions of them are trafficked, enslaved for sex work and porn. But you don't worry about the enslaved or workers rights. It's all a matter of choice. They could, after all, risk their lives to escape slavery. They could commit suicide, and the women that do consent to that work could always starve instead. They could be hedge fund managers if only they applied themselves. The choice argument is identical to what the right says in dismissing workers rights.

A basic requisite for feminism is liking women. Your determination to invade this space and laugh at survivors of rape and domestic violence who do not share your determination to propagate rape culture through porn and justify violence against women in real life based on what you think you see in that porn shows that you don't even respect our lives, let alone equal rights.

So take your version of feminism to the other save haven group where you can complain how oppressed men are for being "harangued" by "misandrist" rape prevention campaigns that mention the word men rather than placing full responsibility for rape on the victim, where they insist in belongs. Join them in their outrage that rape victims don't share their fetishization for brutalizing women for kicks, and tell them what hypocrites we are for believing we can have one corner of DU where our lives actually matter. Complain to them that we natter on about the real life effects of violence against women rather than keeping our mouth shuts like we are supposed to and recognizing that violence against women should only be discussed in terms of male arousal.

Feminism starts with basic respect for women, something you have demonstrated a complete lack of here. I very much hope that the hosts do ban you, since I have no interest in conversing with anyone who has such clear contempt for the rights of women in this group.

It doesn't turn peaceful men who like women into rapists

Those men don't watch rape porn in the first place. Those who do are already disposed to rape. They wouldn't watch rape porn in the first place if they didn't find violation of women erotic. The porn normalizes rape, breaks down their inhibitions, over time it no longer satisfies their desires, and eventually some turn to rape.

Just like watching Fox news makes people more likely to vote Republican. A sold Democrat won't watch much Fox to begin with, but someone disposed to that view point will, and their political views will change over time.

Moreover, what you "believe" is entirely irrelevant. There is an extensive body of academic literature showing a causal relation. You can natter on endlessly about the nonexistence of articles you haven't bothered to look for. It only highlights how desperate you are to justify rape porn, which is central to maintaining rape culture. That is why rape survivors here find the whole commerce so objectionable.

And if I hear one more fool natter on about how we're trying to ban BDSM or BDSM porn, I'll scream. It makes me wonder what is it is that makes so many unable to distinguish consensual BDSM from rape, which is defined by the absence of consent.

Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz

Several times this week I've been reminded of the film by Maria Luisa Bemberg, "Yo la peor de todas (I, the Worst of All) on the life of the 17th-century Mexican poet and writer, Sister Juana Inez de la Cruz. In an age when few men were literate, Sor Juana wrote prolifically and was said to have the largest library in New Spain. (New Spain was a Spanish colony that encompassed Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean, and Western United States. Its capital was Mexico City).

As a woman, Juana was denied access to higher education. At age 16, she attempted to dress as a boy in an effort to attend university in Mexico City. Unsuccessful, she was able to cultivate the patronage of Leonor Carreto, the wife of Antonio SebastiŠn de Toledo who occupied the position of Viceroy of New Spain, the highest office in the colony. She would later benefit from the patronage of the subsequent viceregal families.

Women of her class and era had two choices: marry or enter a convent. Refusing several proposals of marriage, Juana chose to become a Hieronimyte nun, for the cloister allowed her to live a life devoted to letters. The luxury afforded Juana did not extend to all nuns but came largely from the patronage of the Viceregal families, most notably that of the marquis and marquise de la Laguna from 1680 to 1688. She is also rumored to have been romantically involves with vicerene Maria Luisa de Paredes.

Maria Luisa Bemberg's film, "Yo la peor de todas," is based on a novel by Octavio Paz on Sor Juana's life. It captures the cloistered world of nuns, confined to cells and kept from the world. Her cage was filled with books, musical, and scientific instruments. Rarely able to leave the convent, Sor Juana received Maria Luisa de Paredes in her cell. Juana produced a large body of literary works that would result in her standing as the most important literary figure of colonial Spanish America. Her renowned, however, was not without costs. She made the grave mistake of entering into an ecclesiastical disagreement with the church hierarchy over interpretation of a sermon by the Portuguese Jesuit, Antonio Vieira. When the Bishop of Puebla published Juana's essay on Vieira without her permission, she became the subject of intense criticism, warned in print to keep to her place. Juana's response was to publish a treatise on the rights of all women to knowledge, Repuesta a Sor Filotea. That radical piece of writing would spell her undoing. She was stripped of her books and possessions, kept from writing, and put to domestic service in the convent before eventually dying from the plague in 1695, at 43 years of age.

Bemberg captures the intense misogyny of 17th century clergy, so repulsed by women they recoil in horror when Sor Juana nearly brushes against them. Women were temptresses, whose power to arouse men was seen as coming from Satan himself. (Recent writings on school girls' dressing as sluts brought this to mind.) Most threatening, however, was Sor Juana's keen intellect and strength of will to challenge a subjugation of women so great, the word patriarchy doesn't do it justice. Bemberg demonstrates the sadism of the priests who enjoyed watching Juana's fall from grace to domestic service, reduced to her rightful place as a woman: demure, obedient, and disarmed of her pen. Her punishment amounted to a metaphorical rape of her mind and soul--the essence of Juana as person. The film ends with her signing a final confession in blood, Juana Ines de la Cruz, "Yo la peor de todas," I, the worst of all.

The full film is available on YouTube:

For a summary of her life and contributions, see: http://www.britannica.com/women/article-9028065

strawmen and choice

Certainly there is some porn that caters to those who like to see men tortured and raped (the vast majority of it geared toward men). The overwhelming majority of rape porn, however, places women and girls in the role of victim. Any moron can do a search of rape porn right now and see exactly what comes up. They will see terrorized women and sites promising viewers they will be watching real rape.

When someone has a fantasy, it's not rape. Rape means the absence of consent. If the woman fantasizes, it means she is consenting in her fantasies at least. That is not rape. Rape is defined by the absence of consent: not the type of sex, not if its rough or tender, not BDSM, but the absence of consent.

The people who are disagreeing with me don't see women at issue period. Strawman? Far from it. That they refuse to consider the experience of those women hardly speaks in their favor. They see this as entirely about their own sex lives, and not the rights of the women who appear in that porn--some the result of enslavement, or the women who are raped in response to its proliferation. Refusing to consider the reality of what goes into making that porn is far from an argument in their favor. It shows those they see those lives are too insignificant to even consider about.

If I talk to a Wall Street type who has made money off selling mortgage debt, and he's showing me his new lear jet, and I point out people have suffered in order to buy him that jet, that is far from a strawman. He doesn't argue he doesn't think or care about those people, but when he dismisses the argument as significant or relevant, he shows his view very clearly. That is exactly what posters here are doing. The mortgage holders chose to take on the debt; they chose not to pay their mortgage. Why are you denying them freedom of choice? They chose to be homeless. Just like those women who appear in porn, except of course when they don't choose at all because they are enslaved or bound through debt peonage.

Who are you to judge

How Walmart treats their employees? Who are you to judge what or whether people pay their employees? Who are you to judge whether there are fatalities in factories as a result of unsafe working conditions? Who are you to judge if a manufacturer sells a product that results in deaths? That's his private business, after all. Censors always claim "moral superior" as the reasoning behind their blatant attempts at controlling everyone.

Those are all areas progressives regularly pass judgment on, yet when it comes to considering the circumstances of those working in porn, suddenly we aren't allowed to think about that? We are supposed to pretend it's all about the consumer and that the porn workers, whether free or enslaved, are inconsequential? That rape porn has been show to increase a viewers' propensity toward committing actual rape is irrelevant. None of those questions matter because . . . why exactly? Would it be because they are only women?

The mayor of Toronto: Comedic Genius?

The Toronto mayor scandal makes me miss Chris Farley. Can't you just imagine his playing the best Rob Ford ever?

Some have pointed out that Ford does a fine job of playing himself. I'm not sure whether he's channeling Farley's ghost or a comedic genius in his own right, but he sure is fun to watch, maybe not so much if you're from Toronto.

Wrong again

You haven't even bothered to read about the law or the post I directed you to. The law only makes illegal possession of porn that is already illegal to produce in the UK. Clearly that category exists if production of that porn is already illegal. You move from one demonstrably false point to another.

You chose to invoke the argument about freedom and a "police state" in THIS context of why you think violent porn should be protected under British law. Given your complete lack of understanding of the law itself, I am hardly going to take your concerns about how it's "made to be abused."

You want to pretend this is about something other than rape porn. It isn't. It's about a pornographic form that depicts or even enacts violence against women. Little could be more misogynistic than that. The UK is banning possession of illegal rape porn in an effort to diminish violence against women. That for you is symptomatic of a police state. I resent your invocation of women's bodies--my body, my safety--in some pronouncement of your rights. That you think violence against women is the minor issue (as indicated by your insistence that posters here aren't defending rape porn in denouncing this law) compared to your notion of "freedom" only confirms for me your willful disregard of what most concerns me--violence. You get disgusted all you want. For those 1 out of 3 women who have been the victim of rape and partner violence, this subject is far from abstract. I have every right to care more about rape victims than rapists and rape fantasists. You want to see depictions of those violent assaults as erotic entertainment or as a weapon in libertarian battles. Women's bodies as a proxy for men's rights: so what else is new? On one hand we have the right wingers trying to assert political control over our reproductive rights, and on the left the so-called left claiming pornography depicting violent violation of our bodies is part of their "freedom." Use your own body as a political proxy and leave mine the fuck alone.

I forgot all about this song

Until I recently ran across it on YouTube. Great song, terrible video.

Dire Straights, Romeo and Juliet

"How to spot a misogynist"

Do any of these sound familiar?

If you want to see real oppression, go to the Middle East.

The problems here are threefold. First, it implies women in the west should be grateful for the benevolence of their natural overlords. Who cares if 1 in 3 of you will experience sexual assault in your lifetime, while also enjoying the privilege of lower pay than your male counterparts and the symbolic annihilation of yourselves in literature and film? In case you didnít know, women in Afghanistan are being stoned to death. So why donít you just go ahead and submit your complaint to the STFU file . . .

4. Itís a science thing

ďLook, men and women are built differently. Itís biological. Men are more visual, women are more emotional. Thatís why more men are in executive roles. Itís about merit. If women were better, they wouldnít be so crap. I didnít make the rules.Ē

And the ever so popular

5. Men are oppressed too, therefore women arenít! Or something.

ĎIf feminists really cared about equality, theyíd be addressing all the inequality that faces men. Like, why do feminists only care about breast cancer and not prostate cancer? Why arenít feminists advocating for single dads? Why wonít women sleep with me when Iím a really nice guy and Iíve made a particular effort to be nice to them, particularly? Until feminism can answer that, Iím afraid I donít really see it as being legitimate.Ē

This is the last bastion of the misogynistís argument Ė their self fancying checkmate, if you will. What these people are basically saying is that, despite the overwhelming evidence of entrenched sexual, physical and ideological oppression of women, the only way feminism can really be fair is if it first identifies and solves all of the ways in which the patriarchy also oppresses men.


Imagine thinking the worst thing about rape is not the crime or the harm to victims

but that a man might be exposed to a PSA that mentions rape and men within the same 60s seconds?

It turns out this so-called "misandrist" PSA was made by a men's group at FSU, men who like women and don't want to see them raped, men who aren't so self-absorbed that they worry more about their egos being bruised at the mention of the word rape than the actual crime or its victims. This is a group of young men who likes and respects women and isn't so self-pitying that they see an ad that mentions the word men as an attack upon themselves. In fact, they made that PSA. These are strong men, confident enough in themselves that do not need or want to see rape victims blamed for the assaults against them. Rather than actively promoting rape culture by trying to silence victims and claim men have nothing to do with a culture that promotes sexual assault, they tell other men "don't rape her." "Don't rape her." That is all. These are not men who worry more about their warped persecution complexes than victims of sexual assault. These are allies to women and good human beings who want to see a better society.

Yet some insist rape PSAs should focus only on women, since they see women as responsible for their own assault. PSAs must never mention the word men, despite the fact that 99% of rapists are men (and 10% of victims in civil society, far more in prison). The misogynists insist they should not have to teach their sons to respect women's boundaries. Mind you this mindset is simultaneously accompanied by protestations that having sex with a drunk woman should not be considered rape. The law is irrelevant to them. This same mindset also claims women who say no really mean yes.

The students at FSU, thankfully, do not revel in such intensely misogynistic ideology. They care about women because they are human beings, friends, and partners. Astoundingly, they are concerned more about rape victims than their own egos, which clearly are far stronger and healthier than those who take offensive at PSAs directed at rapists. The self-pity some enjoy wallowing in is pathetic. This PSA was funded and created by a group of young men--men who care about women and the world they live in.

Courtesy of csziggy, a proud alumnus of Florida State University, this is the info on the group behind the video:

Men Advocating Responsible Conduct (MARC) is a group of students at FSU

Group that made this PSA:
Men Advocating Responsible Conduct (MARC) is a group of students at the Florida State University who seek to educate their peers concerning the importance of appropriate and responsible behavior.

The Mission of MARC is to raise awareness about the socialization of men and the cultural issues of sexism and gender violence. Through advocacy, education and training we are committed to creating a campus culture in which gender equality and respect prevail.

Members of MARC include undergraduate and graduate students of Florida State University who demonstrate strong leadership skills and who exhibit a sincere interest in addressing issues such as sexual assault on college campuses. If you are interested in becoming a member of MARC, simply fill out and submit the application form to MARC and meet with the director for an informal interview.

Campus Partners

Victim Advocate Program
Dean of Students Department
Division of Student Affairs


For those who may have missed the context, here is the video:

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