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cleduc

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Member since: Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:38 PM
Number of posts: 644

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My recollection was some of the eyewitness versions against the officer generally

implied that Brown was fleeing with the officer in pursuit when Brown was shot in the back and then turned to face the officer to surrender. I'd have to check their words more carefully before I can be absolutely sure of that.

Dorian Johnson did feel that Brown was wounded first by the gunshot in the car.

The no gun shot residue on his head wounds with Brown's cap found a good distance from his body goes somewhat against my impression of Dorian Johnson's account suggesting the officer was standing over Brown when he fired the fatal shots. Not totally discounting it but it gives me some pause.

Maybe you and I are looking after different pictures

In the one above, the wound on his hand shows a wound on the bone leading to his thumb - which is not precisely the palm of his hand. It does appear to be on the inner/palm side of the hand.

It's not a round entrance wound - it's a line along much of the bone below the thumb - which opens it to the possibility that the angle of the bone when it was struck by the bullet was roughly pointing towards the gun - not in a "classic" hands up position.

It also could be that the bone shattered in a hands up position when struck and did that damage - though if I had to guess, that seems less likely but it's pretty tough to be absolutely sure one way or the other from that diagram. I certainly wouldn't want to try to convict anyone solely on the basis of that diagram.

There are a couple of accounts making that claim

How reliable they are, I'm not sure. Both appear to have been published by right wingers and therefore, my suspicion radar is beeping rather loudly.

BUT, this has to be about beyond reasonable doubt. Because those accounts haven't been discounted beyond reasonable doubt, I cannot dismiss them entirely yet.

The crime scene distance was 35 feet

roughly from the cruiser to where he lay - something like that according to what I recall from a press conference

That doesn't mean the shots were from 35 feet

Some reports I heard or read said the officer was out of his cruiser in pursuit. Therefore, there's a good chance the shots were less than 35 feet (if those accounts are accurate on that point)

No gun shot residue found on his head and his cap found several feet away suggests the fatal head shots probably came from more than 3-5 feet away

It does?

It makes the post directed to Shaun King whose words you posted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”
...
He stressed that his examination was not to determine whether the shooting was justified.

“Right now there is too little information to forensically reconstruct the shooting.”

No matter what conclusions can be drawn from Dr. Baden’s work, Mr. Brown’s death remains marked by shifting and contradictory accounts more than a week after it occurred.



Where you you get "Autopsy shows, it's murder in the first degree." from the above?

Through more embracing of jumping to conclusions when the guy who did the autopsy could not?


On fatal wounds:
"It can be because he’s giving up" = suggests murder
There are at least four accounts he was murdered.

"or because he’s charging forward at the officer." = suggests self defense
There are at least two accounts I've seen suggesting he charged the officer - from right wing sources so I have suspicions but I haven't seen them thoroughly scuttled.

Therefore, I haven't seen anyone credibly make your claim "Autopsy shows, it's murder" yet

Still inconclusive

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0
For example:
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”
...
“Right now there is too little information to forensically reconstruct the shooting.”

"all the conjecture without proof is not compelling in my opinion"

Absolutely no doubt about that. Completely and emphatically agree.

It cuts both ways for me.

I do have concern with quotes like this but only if it's legit and accurate: "The next thing I know he coming back towards the ??? (police?)" "Dude started running ... coming toward the police" "Then he (I interpret as Brown) kept coming towards him (I interpret as the police)"

The gun nut sites may have been mass emailing it this morning. But that guy posted it Aug 14th and I'd swear I saw it before then.

MohRokTah said 'For the "let's wait for the facts" crowd. We already have several facts.'

Next, let me expound on what @JoyAnnReid helped me clarify just now. Just speaking about facts here. No conjecture.

Officer Darren Wilson DID NOT write his own police report of the incident, but the report that was filed from the store references 2 reports

These 2 reports, filed by officers who were not actually at the scene of the murder, have not been released. We know little of them.


Here's a fact you missed: The St Louis County Police took over the investigation of the shooting at the request of the Ferguson Police shortly after the shooting. Therefore, there will be no Darren Wilson police report forthcoming from the Ferguson police. In fact, Wilson may only provide the St Louis County Police with a statement. And none of that is likely to be forthcoming anytime soon until the investigation is completed and maybe not until the Grand Jury has done it's business.

The 2 reports we got relate to the robbery - distinct from the subsequent shooting.

Whining about that isn't going to change the process.

MohRokTah also said
1. According to the Police Chief Officer Darren Wilson DID NOT know about the stolen cigars & all agree the stop was just about jaywalking.


But it's also a fact that Chief Jackson has subsequently said that Wilson knew of the robbery, saw the stolen cigars with Brown after he'd stopped him for jaywalking and joined the dots that Brown may have stolen them before the exchange between them completed. That's a key thing because if true, it would explain officer Wilson backing up up his cruiser and reengaging with Brown and why an altercation between them might have started.

MohRokTah also said
Beyond this sounding preposterous for 82 different reasons, the FACTS show that Mike Brown's body was found 35 feet from the SUV.

The FACTS suggest that Mike Brown ran 35 feet, then TURNED AROUND (as 4 eyewitnesses say) and was shot/killed in that very spot. Facts.

Are you tracking with me? Beyond zero eyewitnesses saying that he ran full speed at the fully armed officer, facts show he didn't.


"Beyond zero eyewitnesses saying that he ran full speed at the fully armed officer" ?

Really? I don't know about "full speed" but :

someone is contradicting the 4 witnesses on that audio

I wasn't there so I don't know which account is accurate. I'm trying to be objective.

And this:
http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/
That's a little more murky because it's from a 3rd party via a right wing radio host who I do not care for. But I mention it because that may well be the position of the officer backed up by the audio above. It also alleges Brown turned and came at Wilson before he was fatally shot.

And the 35 feet may be how far Brown wound up away from the cruiser. It doesn't mean he could not have got 50 feet and turned around and come back. And the officer was allegedly in pursuit so they may have been only a few feet apart when the fatal and final shots rang out.

We don't have the ballistics and autopsy yet.

There's more to learn before passing judgement. That's about the only fact I can say heartily here.

The stats shocked me

(for those who hadn't seen them):

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-lack-diversity-goes-way-beyond-its-cops
Though two in three Ferguson residents are black, the city government is almost entirely white.


and their elected school board is also almost entirely white

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-missouri-st-louis-police-shooting-teen-20140811-story.html#page=1
Of the 53 commissioned officers on the police force, three are black, said Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson.


67% of Ferguson citizens are black. 5.6% of Ferguson officers are black.

And from that:
Blacks in Ferguson are twice as likely to be stopped by police as whites, according to an annual report on racial profiling by the Missouri attorney general.

I may not have a big problem with that because there are twice as many blacks as white in Ferguson (I'd have to review the context of those stats).

But here, we seem to have a problem:
Last year, 93% of arrests following car stops in Ferguson were of blacks. Ninety-two percent of searches and 80% of car stops involved blacks, the report said.

Maybe it's to help the court case

by underscoring where both parties agree on facts (which will be the bulk of them) that will reduce the bickering in court/media
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