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cleduc

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Member since: Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:38 PM
Number of posts: 646

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"A fight through a window is a losing fight for the person inside every time "

Not every time ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5404941

I fought the law ... and the law lost



If the officer had done what I did, he may well have apprehended Brown without loss of life.

I quickly obtained an advantage because my two arms overpowered his one arm - that happened to be on the side of his holster.

BTW, I don't recommend my behavior. It could have easily turned out badly. But that cop was clearly out of line, assaulted me with zero provocation and went too far with someone who could take care of themselves.

I'm playing around with it because I'm pretty sure

that's where they're going with it. They don't have much choice as it's the only defense one can make to try to get Wilson off a criminal charge. So I'm tinkering with how to beat them at their own game.

To extend your thought, aren't police officers supposed to tamp these situations down? The John Wayne bar room brawl is supposed to be the last resort, isn't it? But this guy ramped up and did the kid in very quickly. He could not possibly have handled it well for it to get that ugly so quickly. He screwed up on that basis alone.

As well, and I haven't seen this raised, what is this guy doing blazing away on a residential street? What if one of those bullets (he missed several shots) hit a little kid on a bike or in a baby carriage or somebody's grandma or mother and killed them? What would he say "Well, at least I recovered a few bucks worth of cigarillos?" That's nuts.

Along that reasoning, is Mike Brown's life worth less than $50 worth of cigarillos? Wouldn't a good cop reason once the kid was running away as he raised his pistol "Hey, this isn't worth it. Let the kid go and maybe we'll catch up with him later when he's cooled down."

If Mike had gone after his gun and wasted him, was the cops life worth less than $50 worth of cigarillos?

No matter what defense they come up with, some of that cop's thinking is indefensible for the greater good and safety of the public he's supposed to protect. Ignoring what happened to Mike Brown for a moment (and I don't mean to belittle his horrific loss because that's what a big bunch of this is about), even if one were to accept everything they've said to date in the cop's defense, this whole thing was pretty over the top crazy behavior by that cop. It was stupid, reckless and senseless.

I continue to have the same problem with it

I posted this in the first autopsy thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5407236

Two head shots that seem to come roughly from the top of the head downward on a very big man ...

If he's down on his knees, it's not so hard to imagine.

If he's running towards Wilson as Wilson is alleged to have claimed:

The eye socket shot going down through his jaw - that one might have deflected at quite an angle from the edge of his eye socket but it's hard for me to imagine a 90 degree ricochet when they're usually less than 15-30 degrees. His head probably had to be tilted downwards quite a bit.

The one in the top of the skull was found in his skull. That one strikes me as coming at an angle roughly close to perpendicular to the top of his head. Bullets can bounce off bone. It's coming from a pistol - not a high powered rifle - so it's max speed is about half the velocity of a rifle - which means it can't penetrate skull bone as easily at a glancing angle.

That suggests he'd have to be coming at Wilson like a bull or maybe a linebacker getting ready to tackle. And he's running into a steady spray of bullets - a number that are hitting him before these ones kill him. Maybe it was the last shot as he was going down ...

I suppose life is stranger than fiction but running towards an officer blasting away is a pretty friggin' crazy thing to expect.

Having said that, it's very premature. We have to wait for the full autopsy combined with ballistics before one can conclude much on bullet trajectory. But from what I've seen so far, I have real reservations about Wilson's account jiving with the autopsy.

How Strong Is the Legal Case Against Darren Wilson?

http://www.newsweek.com/how-strong-legal-case-against-darren-wilson-265675
What if Brown did assault Wilson and try to take his gun before fleeing—the account put forward by the St. Louis County police? Would that make him a dangerous fleeing felon?

“It’s conceivable that there might be a determination that Mr. Brown had committed an assault that was equivalent to a felony against a police officer and that might be viewed legally as a justification for the use of force—and in this instance, deadly force,” Joy said.

But assuming Brown didn’t charge at Wilson, as his friend recounted, other legal experts say that argument would be shaky at best.

Assuming "that Brown breaks away from the police officer and the police car, is not armed, and is at some distance away from him—not presenting any immediate threat to the officer or anybody else—then it's plainly illegal to shoot him,” said Bowman.

Did a struggle with the police officer turn Brown into a violent fleeing felon? After all, police department’s account claims Officer Wilson’s face was hit during the altercation and he was treated for his wounds at a hospital.

Not according to Bowman. “If you’re a police officer and I walk up and punch you in the nose and turn around and run away, you can’t pull out your glock and shoot me in the back. You just can’t. The law insists on far more restraint than that from police officers.” he said.

Generally, the law requires more than an altercation to justify the use of deadly force against someone who is fleeing the police, like assaulting an officer with a deadly weapon, or committing a crime with a deadly weapon.

“It’s pretty hard to think of any legal justification for the officer firing at this guy once contact is broken and the guy is moving away,” Bowman said.

Bowman was a little wary of Josie’s account, but stressed that an investigation will have to sort fact from fiction. “The idea that, once out of the car, the kid would then charge an obviously armed policeman seems to me less probable,” he said. “But, who knows? We'll see what the actual investigation decides.”


It's not a bad read.

From that, the only legal defense I can imagine for Wilson is trying to convince some members of the jury that Brown charged at him (which as noted and bolded above is a stretch because that's a pretty crazy thing to do against a cop with a gun drawn). Wilson would also need the ballistics to back him up. And a bunch of witnesses since they've interviewed about 200 folks and at least four have come out against him publicly. Without that, based on the above article, he's likely to get convicted (if the prosecutor doesn't put his thumb on the scales of justice).

I agree

I do not understand why they would not withdraw themselves

Don't lose any sleep waiting for it

It's inaccessible under MO Law
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C600-699/6100000150.HTM
"911" telephone reports inaccessible, exceptions.
610.150. Except as provided by this section, any information acquired by a law enforcement agency or a first responder agency by way of a complaint or report of a crime made by telephone contact using the emergency number, "911", shall be inaccessible to the general public. However, information consisting of the date, time, specific location and immediate facts and circumstances surrounding the initial report of the crime or incident shall be considered to be an incident report and subject to section 610.100. Any closed records pursuant to this section shall be available upon request by law enforcement agencies or the division of workers' compensation or pursuant to a valid court order authorizing disclosure upon motion and good cause shown.

No signs of struggle on Brown

doesn't mean there wasn't a struggle. It might mean Brown didn't get noticeably hurt during the struggle.

As well, the officer apparently went to the hospital to get treated for a facial injury - that might have been as a result of a struggle.

On the GSR, Baden did not test the clothes or have the clothes to test. Others apparently did or will.

I read GSR is only detectable if the muzzle is within 3-5 feet.

The bullet wound some allege Brown received around the cruiser could have been the result of a ricochet when the gun went off in the cruiser and therefore, no GSR was directed at Brown if that happened.

Who knows for sure at this point .... lots of possibilities

To save me typing,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process
"Due process" means
...
2) right to grieve (that being the right to complain or to disagree with the governmental actor/entity that has decision making authority) and

3) the right to appeal if not satisfied with the outcome of the grievance procedure.

Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due-process violation, which offends against the rule of law.

...
The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution each contain a Due Process Clause. Due process deals with the administration of justice and thus the Due Process Clause acts as a safeguard from arbitrary denial of life, liberty, or property by the Government outside the sanction of law.


Michael Brown and disparity of due process
http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/the-platform/editorial-michael-brown-and-disparity-of-due-process/article_40bb2d0e-8619-534a-b629-093ebc79f0a6.html

I'm also after due process in a larger sense of the term:

Michael Brown had due process taken from him in a few seconds when Darren Wilson pulled the trigger. But I would contend that in the court of public opinion, even in death, he still should get due process. I argue that he has a right to be tried fairly in the media and court of public opinion. His family is entitled to the kind of due process that will give them answers and from those answers, some closure. And some comfort with that knowledge and those answers that we'll learn something and as a result, be better off for it such that their son or brother didn't die for nothing.

That's the sort of due process I want.

I've made reference to wanting "due process"

but your description doesn't describe where I'm coming from.

We get pieces of information on this case. For example:
- Witness testimony clipped from videos
- Some police info/reports related to the robbery
- Part of an autopsy report.
- press conferences/video interviews with officials
- media reports
- radio/tv interview(s) with various parties
etc
It gets pinned up here in a thread and discussed.

We have an unarmed, dead teenager shot by a cop.

Most would agree we do not have the full details of story at this point. We know there is more to come. We can speculate and discuss why this happened - maybe to sort out some fact from fiction with the evidence provided. We can suspect who is culpable and who is lying. But we don't have all the facts and details to tell us with assurance beyond reasonable doubt what really happened here. Why did this kid die?

I get this: "An unarmed black kid is dead at the hands of a white cop!! What more do you need to know?"

This isn't a case of a white cop just driving up, picking out a black kid at random and shooting him. Some might argue it's close to that. But there's more to it than that.

There was a robbery that may or may not factor in. There appears to have been an altercation at the cruiser - why did that happen? Etc. Scrutinizing those things gets us closer to the truth of what went on.

"Due process" will deliver a more accurate picture of what happened and why. I think Mike Brown's family deserves that. I think Ferguson, America and DU.com deserve that. I think the determination of what should happen to this officer deserves that (even though that officer didn't give Mike the same consideration or opportunity) because that's the justice system we abide by.

My desire for "due process" has nothing to do with racist feelings or defending a white racist cop. Like so many, I want to understand why this kid lost his life. I want real answers.

Worse than the orbital bone fracture ...

from that story at the top :
https://twitter.com/ChristineDByers/statuses/501556693382094848
Christine Byers ✔ @ChristineDByers

Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson



http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/justice-department-orders-new-autopsy-of-michael-browns-body/2014/08/18/023a4d12-2694-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html?hpid=z1
authorities said Holder would arrive in Ferguson on Wednesday and meet with some of the FBI agents and prosecutors investigating the case. They have interviewed more than 200 people, scouring the area where Brown was shot by Darren Wilson, an officer with Ferguson’s police department.



I wonder how many have corroborated the other witnesses version of events, who do not agree with the officer ...

Would have been a good question for the reporter to have asked
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