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cleduc

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Member since: Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:38 PM
Number of posts: 635

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I suppose I can agree only to a limited degree

When I see the Koch Bros and others spending / or the campaign finance laws ...

When I see all the warrants and oppression against blacks in Ferguson, inhibiting their right to vote and it leaves me wondering how many other cities like Ferguson there are ...

When I see all the stuff the GOP has done against minority or low income people to deny them their right to vote ...

When I see all the gerrymandering that has gone on in GOP run states ...

When I see FOX News and the like ... and the mess in the media giving stupid crap like the Birther issue air time ...

When I see all the voting irregularities ...

When I hear all the obvious lies about Obama and the poor job to widely discredit them ...

When I realize many folks struggling to get by, working three part time jobs, don't have the time to digest the political issues because feeding their kids is desperately higher on their priority list and requires most of their time and they can't afford the internet or a daily paper ...

etc, etc

I'm not so sure all of the Americans you condemn are getting a fair shake. It really troubles me.

My impression based upon personal experience

of the presidents during my lifetime is that there was some reverence for the office lost with Nixon and maybe Johnson before him. Eisenhower and JFK seemed more revered or respected and there seemed to be places you didn't go with them that US citizens started to go with Johnson and Nixon. It carried on or eroded from there.

Some of it had to do with TV journalism of the 60s-70s going against Vietnam or uncovering Watergate (TV broadened the impact of the Washington Post exposing Watergate).

Some of what we see today probably has something to do with the paparazzi nature of some political punditry and playing "us vs them" on cable news to get ratings or the internet giving a broader voice to extreme factions that we haven't learned to filter out proportionately in our dialogues.

But I do feel there is something to what the man is saying. I do not think President Obama has been treated well or fairly. I think a hunk of the difference is based upon racism - even in congress.

I can't "prove" that. It's just how I feel about it.

I have the utmost respect for President Obama. To me, he's the best president of my lifetime (I go back to Eisenhower). I'm saddened that a man with such potential for greatness is curtailed by the worst gridlock I've ever seen in congress and the most powerful man in the world can't stop it or solve it. The people I'm most sad and heartbroken for are Americans - who deserve better than this.

Neither do I

http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/nationwide-trends
In 2012, an estimated 23.9 million Americans aged 12 or older—or 9.2 percent of the population—had used an illicit drug or abused a psychotherapeutic medication (such as a pain reliever, stimulant, or tranquilizer) in the past month.


So let's be fair and revise the number:
23,900,000 drug users - 1 Mike Brown, maybe a drug user = 22,899,999 maybe left to go ....

At 11 shots per drug user, they'll need 262,899,989 bullets. Call the Koch Bros and the NRA for funding ...


(/end silly sarcasm)

I agree

I'll rephrase

I hope the Grand Jury makes his lawyer provide an explanation in a criminal court.

I think I'm a fair person, "innocent until proven guilty" and all for due process, etc.

But I think Mike Brown's family and friends and America needs to hear very clearly why an unarmed young man got shot down under the scrutiny of a court carefully examining all the evidence and testimony.

One curious thing:

where's the sound of the shot that supposedly happened in the car? According to the accounts I've read or heard, he didn't shoot six times in the car. It was one shot.

The sound of the shots is quite clear. The car window had to be open for the struggle. Why don't we hear that first shot? I expect it wasn't as loud because it was in the car but those shots are so clear outside the car, I would have expected to hear something from the open window of the car. Maybe it's before the part of the tape CNN played?

The other thing the officer will have to explain are two general decisions to shoot: the first burst and the second burst. There's some time in between to deliberate so two separate decisions got made to use deadly force. Can he really convince that his life or the lives of others was in danger both times? Can he defend that he didn't put other innocent lives in more danger by rattling off all those shots on a residential street -many that missed? I think he's got a real problem there and the audio pause really helps to accentuate that.

My mother has dementia as well

When I was a boy, she was prejudiced against blacks. It's how she was brought up, in poverty with a father who wheezed to death from being gassed in the first world war. She didn't know any better - classic ignorance. MLK, RFK, etc & the civil rights movement gave her kids the support and arguments to work on her and educate her.

In 2008, she was a gigantic fan of candidate Obama. Every day, she'd turn on her TV to see one of her favorite people in the world: Barack. Today, when she gets up, she'll turn on her TV and be back at it, getting snippets of how President Obama is doing. She adores him.

I know when you see things like Michael Brown, 150 years after the civil war and 50 years after MLK, it's disheartening and makes you wonder if things will ever change. But people can change, some do and some have. I've seen it. 60-70 years ago, I have my doubts you'd have ever seen the fuss and front page outcry over the police shooting someone like unarmed Michael Brown as we've seen recently. Not everybody has changed and not enough have changed but a bunch have.

Keep up the good work you do here. Slowly but surely, it is working and changing people.

Don't accept "the difference" with the examples you gave

Yes, they're different.

But, for example, some of the first media I read on Mike Brown was describing him as a gentle giant.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/michael-brown-remembered-as-a-gentle-giant/article_cbafa12e-7305-5fd7-8e0e-3139f472d130.html

and

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/five-revelations-from-rolling-stones-boston-bomber-cover-story-20130716
"Janet Reitman delivers a riveting account of how Jahar Tsarnaev became a monster"

So cherry picking media paragraphs doesn't work for me.

Has there been some coverage on Brown that suggests some racism is behind it? Definitely.

Have we seen that level of racism against Tsarnaev? Definitely not.

If that's the point, then I could agree with that.

They claimed they never called 911 but

from the police reports
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/15/ferguson-police-report.pdf

they reported a theft to the officer who responded to (apparently) a patron calling 911

Watch the video and convince me the retailer was just thanking Mike Brown (allegedly according to Dorian Johnson) for his business.

If Brown did pay for something, maybe he bought one pack of cigarillos and stole 10 more. Who knows yet? Dorion Johnson said Mike had his hands full of cigarillos when the trouble with Wilson started.

I don't think one has to be a rocket scientist to figure out there was an unusual problem at that store that looked like some sort of theft and the police reports show the store employees claimed theft of cigars.

I answered one of the things I wondered about:

from the Boise manual:
L 4707 PLACEMENT ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE:
The officer or officers directly involved in the shooting will be placed on Administrative
Leave after the completion of their reports.
Administrative Leave is for an undetermined
period of time and is authorized at the direction of the Chief of Police. The officer placed on
Administrative Leave is responsible for advising the respective bureau command of the
officer's whereabouts in order that contact may be made when necessary.


and this:
L 4706 REPORTS BY DEPARTMENT MEMBERS:
Any member involved in, or performing any function pertaining to, an officer involved
shooting will submit reports detailing such involvement. Reports will be completed and
submitted prior to securing from the tour of duty during which the incident occurred.

From San Jose Police Duty manual:

I haven't been able to access Ferguson/St Louis police links so I looked this up elsewhere

Below are clips from the duty manual of the San Jose Police
https://www.sjpd.org/boi/homicide/ois_faq.html

L 2638 DIRECT USE OF FIREARM:
Revised 06-16-04
An officer may discharge a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
- When discharged in a safe manner at an approved range
- When used for the humane destruction (euthanasia) of a seriously injured animal, or to
dispatch any animal that poses an immediate threat to any person or other animal, and
other dispositions are impractical
- When deadly force is objectively reasonable in self-defense or in defense of another
person's life
- When deadly force is objectively reasonable to effect the capture of, or prevent the
escape or rescue of, a suspect whom the officer has reasonable cause to believe has
committed a felony involving the use or a threat to use deadly force, and whom an
objectively reasonable officer could believe would pose an imminent danger of death or
serious physical injury to other persons if he or she were to escape


L 2641 WHEN FIREARMS WILL NOT BE DISCHARGED:
Revised 04-06-07
Firearms will not be discharged under the following circumstances:
- At misdemeanants who do not pose an imminent danger of death or serious physical
harm to other persons.
- To affect the capture, or prevent the escape or rescue of, a suspect whom the officer
has reasonable cause to believe has committed a felony which did not involve the use
or a threat to use deadly force.


L 2643 REPORTING USE OF FORCE (in firearms section of SJ Duty Manual):
When force is used by an officer in the course and scope of his or her duties as a peace
officer, the officer will document the details of such use in a general offense crime report
and/or a Narrative/Supplemental Report (Form 200-3A-AFR).. Details will include:
- The reason for the police response to a call for service, or police initiated detention or
arrest
- The behavior of the subject which caused the officer to use force
- Type of force used (verbal and physical tools, techniques and/or tactics used)
- Extent of injuries to any person and the post-force care provided
- Other relevant information regarding the circumstances of the use of force


Here's what the Boise Idaho Duty Manual says about reporting the incident:
http://police.cityofboise.org/media/469928/september-2013-bpd-policy-manual-public-copy.pdf
 Complete a supplemental report and include:
o Facts, circumstances, and chain-of-events
o Resistance encountered
o Type, extent, and reasons for the force used
o Disposition of subject(s)
 Review the Administrative Use of Force Report with your supervisor.

1.01.07 Supervisor’s Responsibilities
When force techniques are used, the following guidelines shall apply:
 Monitor involved officer’s use of force activities to ensure compliance with these policies and procedures.
 Consult with a Lieutenant if problems are noted in situations where force is applied.
 when one of the following techniques are used regardless of injury or complaint of injury:
o Hard empty-handed control techniques are used
o Vascular neck restraint is used
o Intermediate weapons are used (baton, specialty impact munitions, conducted energy weapon, OC Aerosol)
o Canine deployment when force is involved
o Any object used as a weapon
 Complete and forward the Administrative Use of Force Review form for each involved subject, unless there is an intentional use of deadly force, when there is injury or complaint of injury.
 Conduct the initial investigation to obtain and document the facts. The supervisor shall:
o Attempt to obtain photographs (digital images) of the subject and any alleged injuries
o Attempt to obtain recorded interviews with subjects and witnesses
o Complete and attach a supplemental narrative
 Attach copies of incident reports to the Administrative Use of Force Review form and download any audio recordings. Send any photographs to the lab for processing or storage.
 Review all collected evidence as part of a regular administrative Use of Force investigation.
 Review completed Administrative Use of Force Review form with involved officer, note the review in the investigation, and forward to Internal Affairs as outlined 12.03.05H Performance Review Document policy.


so it appears with other city police forces that filing a report is standard procedure

Having said that, in the interest of trying to inform and understand the circumstances (not defend the officer per se!!), I wondered about:
- what obligations the officer has to file such a report if he's placed on administrative leave/suspended with pay immediately
- what obligations the officer has if the crime scene is turned over to another police force as the Ferguson Police did, passing it to the St Louis County Police
- what would be the officer's Miranda rights - if I'm his lawyer, I'd be telling him to shut up and say nothing

What has been reported is that Wilson stayed at the crime scene for hours after the shooting before eventually going to the hospital. He made some sort of a statement to police that day. A few days later/next day?, they got another more lengthy statement from him.

If the Ferguson Police did not follow their own procedures, they could have a problem. But the fact that they turned over the crime scene to the St Louis County police so quickly probably covers them for a lot of that because many of their procedures for this crime scene would cease when that got done.
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