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Mc Mike

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Member since: Wed Nov 23, 2011, 04:50 PM
Number of posts: 1,009

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See some interesting things in the back-and-forth of this discussion

Point 5 on Iching's excellent post # 587 could be updated to add 'or encouraging reference to Bugliosi and mcadams'.

MMMom's post #s 183, 484, and 175 all made good points that went unanswered, though the opposing post-ers continued to spend a lot of time afterwards posting 'broken record'-style repeats on other subjects, in this same thread. So lack of a refuting post wasn't due to them getting tired of the subject or having time constraints. They effectively put their fingers in their ears and hummed. The tactic seems to be 'if you can't answer, just ignore it, and hope the silence is discouragement enough'. This tactic also seems like it’s a bit intellectually dishonest for good Democrats to use. Thanks to MMM for all the great posts.

The subthread on the motorcade route change starting at Octa's post # 332 is interesting. 'Proof' was provided in a reply to 332 that there wasn't a last minute change to the route, in the form of 2 Dallas papers' write ups that said 'Main-Houston-Elm', dated 11-19. That 3 day time period could easily be called 'last minute', in the context of preparing security for the President's visit to the Bircher mecca that was Dallas in '63, where Ambassador Stevenson was recently struck and spat on by an 'unruly' mob of repugs, and 'Kennedy = Traitor' newspaper op-eds and posters were printed by the Bircher Hunt family.

The Sol Bloom Agency planned the initial route, and the route was changed. The trip was a p.r. trip, so it was designed by a firm to give Kennedy exposure, in healing the TX Dem delegation rift, and in running for re-election. But the firm didn’t have final say in putting the president in a dangerous situation, his security people would have to make sure the route was safe, so he didn’t get the wrong kind of ‘exposure’ in an area he described to his wife with the words ‘we’re really in nut country, now.’ One of Octa’s posts points out that the route didn’t have to use the Elm St. entrance to the Freeway, and once they were on the freeway to Ft Worth, the p.r. motorcade through Dallas was over, anyway. So there was no reason to change the route to Elm, period, though it was ‘explained’ to the satisfaction of the W.C. repugs. But the change did occur and resulted in slowing the motorcade down with a dangerous double turn, right by the building where the ‘lone nut’ recently got a job. A fatally dangerous change.

A search online for 'Sol Bloom motorcade route' to get info on the subject yields references to both George De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Paine getting Oswald jobs in Dallas. The J-C-S job George got Oswald had him visiting the Bloom Agency dozens of times, and the Paine-procured job put him right on the changed route. Those pictures of him with the Militant and his rifle were fake cut-outs, with different sun-cast shadows for the face vs. the body, and the face/head doesn’t change size when the body pose moves forward, so it’s out of proportion. The pictures came from Paine. Oswald was completely set up as a patsy by his two ‘angels’ in Dallas, whether he was an ultra-rightist himself or not.

Having a Jewish mob person shoot Oswald afterward was a Bircher move, like trying to put responsibility for the route onto a Jewish p.r. agency. Both De Mohrenschildt and Paine were hooked into far-right Nazis, ‘christians’, businesspeople with high-level gov security clearances, operating in the city described as ‘the buckle on the bible belt.’ They weren’t Jewish. And the cast of characters around Oswald was set up for a maximum amount of red-herrings, if the ‘lone nut’ story didn’t hold up. His connections with Shaw and Ferrie, as well as his bad relations with his wife, made him out to be a closeted gay person, ‘guilty’ of sexual improprieties; his Russian and Fair Play Cuban connections made him out to be a communist; the Ruby and Bloom connections to the event made him appear to be part of a plot by a religious minority, one that is hated by both the Nazis and birchers. And the birchers are just American Nazi repugs who lost in their bid to back Hitler or have America go the nazi way.

The same people hated Kennedy and smeared him as a religious minority engaged in a plot against America, as a communist, as a sexual pervert. Then he was killed, and they offered up their suspect, someone with the same negative descriptors attached. They openly hated JFK, but they didn’t kill him, someone who was connected to everything they hated about him killed him.

You don’t have to be tremendously astute to notice that the same crowd --of bircher far right repug Nazi sheisskopfs, their descendants, their intellectual and political heirs -- are saying the same thing today about our current Democratic president. He’s a ‘communist’, he’s a ‘Muslim plotting to destroy America’, he’s ‘gay’. It’s the same tactic from the same one-trick pony.

That’s not a coincidence, it’s a pattern.

Thanks, Octa.

Your posts and links are always worth viewing. And they keep a certain element occupied, as a added bonus. Off the streets and out of trouble, maybe?

It's funny that the mechanics of the site make it so hard to have a general discussion about a Democratic president's assassination -- in a virulently repug part of the country where schoolkids cheered when they heard about it -- as we approach the 50th anniversary of the assassination.

(Here, before anyone can start whinge-ing about the school kid thing, this was posted by DUer Mabus in '09, in response to redqueen's query on this site:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19631128&id=VEgNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YGwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6266,4365719

Note that it is not just the minister saying it, but also a teacher. The article is an AP article, in addition to Cronkite's CBS news coverage of 11/26. I had to wade through 2 yahoo pages of freeper, weekly standard, and newsbuster denials, before getting this hit. Among the hits were a lot of accusations that Dem schoolkids cheered when Reagan was shot, while decrying the Democratic 'smear' and 'libel' of claiming the repug kids actually cheered Kennedy's murder. Typical repug projection. And additionally, of course, the Reagan shooter's family was hooked into Bush.)

The vast majority of the American public doesn't buy the 'official story'. When reading the posts of people who say it was the 'lone nut' Oswald, I always try to put myself in their shoes, to try to figure out how they think, why they post like they do, what motivates them. This seems like what the Democrats do, in general, as opposed to what the caveman repug party and their ilk does.

The three possible categories I could figure them in are repug disruptor, people who perversely want an argument and function as useful idiots, and good Democrats who think that they are getting stigmatized by having 'conspiracy theorists' associated with 'their' Dem site. I don't believe the high-count long-term posting nay-sayers are repugs, or they would be gone by now. I don't hate the nay-saying post-ers, their derisive, repetitive postings just make me see red, and make me unfairly sometimes put them into the 'useful idiot' category. Probably they're good Dems who fall into the third category. I just wish they'd extend the same charitable interpretation to the good posters like Octa who consistently poke holes in the 'official story' with credible information.

The Warren Commission was put together by the people who killed Kennedy. Not LBJ, who was under the gun, too. His first statement as President was 'Now let's get this SOB off the ground', because he wanted to get out of that virulently dangerous area. Johnson said he didn't believe the WC, before he died.

RFK said while running for President 'I now fully realize that only the powers of the Presidency will reveal the secrets of my brother's death', two days before he was assassinated in L.A.. He told reporter Haynes Johnson (of the Washington Evening Star, and Washington Post), immediately after the assassination, that the CIA-mob anti-Castro assassins killed Kennedy. He told his '68 campaign aide Richard Lubic that he would re-open the case once he was elected and, a week before he died, went for several hours to check privately for info on a report of a phone call from Oxnard pre-warning about the assassination on the morning of 11/22. He didn't believe the WC, and Bugliosi's book 'Helter Skelter' covered up the murderous attack on the people in his L.A. campaign advisors' (Tate and Polanski's) home. There's no reason to believe Bugliosi's recent magnum opus about JFK's murder, in light of that fact.

Before Chappaquiddick, Ted had an anguished incident on an airplane where, having been drinking, he said 'They're going to shoot my ass off like they shot my brothers.' If they are able to murder the most politically powerful members of your family, it's safer for that family if you don't raise high-profile media storms by officially saying the murderers are still out there and in power, so he didn't. Chappaquiddick kept him from running, instead of a bullet, so after RFK's death, there would be no Kennedy running for president in the next election.

But for the next election, the Democrats put a member of JFK's 'Irish Mafia' kitchen cabinet (Larry O'Brien) in as head of the DNC. The repugs responded by having E. Howard Hunt (a CIA guy that worked with the right wing and mob's assassination program) and a gang of Miami Cuban 'real estate agents' burglarize the DNC's Watergate offices, to find out what the Dems were going to do about using the Kennedy assassinations against the repugs. Hunt's blackmailing of the Nixon repugs resulted in his wife's death in the Chicago plane crash, with $100,000 dollars of bribe money she was carrying splattering on the runway. That stupid hat Hunt was always photographed wearing during the Watergate scandal is the same stupid hat he was photographed wearing in Dealey Plaza, when he was rounded up in the train yard as a tramp. His 'favorite hat'. Just his way of blackmailing the repug Nixon administration, saying 'you really don't want me to talk, do you?' The bitter, forced out Nixon chief aide Haldeman said in his tell-all book that Nixon's continual taped references to 'the Mexican stuff' and 'the Bay of Pigs stuff', as reasons to shut down the Watergate investigations, were references to the JFK assassination.

The bottom line in this long post is this: I don't begrudge the nay-saying post-ers (the 'Oswald did it' adherents) their right to an opinion. I don't think they're repugs or 'useful idiots', they're honestly good Dems. But approaching the 50th anniversary of the assassination, some Kennedys are putting themselves on the line by questioning the 'official story', hoping like a lot of good researchers to get the true story, instead of the fallacious 'official story', which comes off like a Rube Goldberg contraption. They aren't convinced or comforted by the debunked WC, Bugliosi, or macadams (who was exposed as a 'pro' CIA disruptor). Constantly repeating the citation of these three 'sources' in any discussion of the murder of a good Democratic president just de-rails the discussion. Extend us the courtesy of believing we're good Dems, too, not nuts or part of some repug black psyop designed to discredit Dems. We're just like the vast majority of the American public, we don't buy the official story because it fails to explain what happened in so many ways.

And anyone who says 'the majority of the American public doesn't believe in global warming, either', is ignoring a key difference. The big money powerful oil companies have been expending beaucoup bucks pushing climate change denial in corporate media, which resulted in a big majority saying 'climate change was occurring' turning into a majority saying 'not sure man is causing climate change'. After 50 years, despite the same big money propagandists (with oil ties to the virulent bircher nazi repug Dallas Hunt family and Poppy bush's Standard Oil of New Jersey) spending tons of money and influence pushing the 'official story', the 'ignorant' public still doesn't buy it.

+1, Star.

It's a book about a book that was written by a book. (High Castle about Grasshopper, written by I Ching). Mr. D probably used the I Ching to write High Castle, to boot. (A book written by a book about a book written by a book.)

Imagining a world where the denizens imagine our world. Says the WWII 'Double V' aim of 'Victory against Fascism Abroad and Victory against Fascism at Home' was only partially realized in the first part, and 'far less achieved than is commonly believed' in the second part.

A novel that eloquently says American nazi power types are still pulling their nazi moves, and actual nazis are still exerting organized power. Really enjoyable to read, too, like most PKD books.

I'm going through the whole op and subthreads for the third time, now.

You seem to be pretty polite in the discussion, c_u. Polite disagreement seems to me like the best way to get any kind of progress out of an 'opposing viewpoints' discussion.

I think the links in Octa's post 230, and MinM's 128 and 203 are a better read for me, better than me obtaining and going through a 1600+ page work by an author whose previous work I have read and not found edifying. I don't disregard your feeling that his book satisfies the questions you have or the issues that you think are important in the Kennedy assassination, it's just not for me. I would be more than happy to read the key thorough debunking facts from his book on this issue if you posted them, though.

But insurance companies are in the business to make money. They make money. They rely on actuarial science to assess their risks in insuring people with life insurance policies. There is a high mortality rate among JFK assassination witnesses. Not just people getting heart attacks and strokes, falling from windows, having plane trouble, single car crashes, and the like, but people who were shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc. The actuary, who is an expert in the field, unlike Bugliosi, was just saying in effect, "An insurer who writes the policies for all of these people, taking their ages, lifestyles, and occupations into account, will chance to make money from insuring them a hundred thousand million billion times, as opposed to having one chance to lose money." That shows a much higher mortality rate among the sub group of witnesses/connected individuals versus the population as a whole with the same ages-health-occupations, and indicates a very large statistical anomaly. Luckily, no single company insured all of those people, because the one in 'one hundred thousand million billion to one' chance came through.

Regarding one of your earlier posts below, 'Oswald as Commie Proselytizer in the Marines' is one of the more outrageous ideas that the 'official story' offers to the American public. Not being impolite to you here, just the idea itself is absurd to the extreme, but is 'officially true.'

You may be thinking of 'Computers and Automation'

instead of Computer World. Here's a link to an article title list:

http://www.baylor.edu/lib/poage/white/index.php?id=61924

You could also use this site's search box, type "computers and automation" into it. Some of the hits are relevant.

I was impressed by an end-note to a '93 documentary on the assassination. It said that the London Sunday Times had commissioned a study by an actuary, on the untimely deaths (within 4 years) of so many people connected to the JFK assassination. The actuary calculated the odds that all those witnesses would be dead, within that time period, to be one hundred million billion to one. 100,000,000,000,000,000 - 1.

3 other points:
Membes of the Prez's Secret Service detail partied the night before in a nightclub owned by an associate of Jack Ruby. Seems to be serious dereliction of duty, considering the virulently anti-Democratic Party and anti-Kennedy atmosphere in Dallas at the time.

The parade route, that the Sol Bloom Agency had mapped out, was changed at the last minute to go right on Houston, then make the slow hard left turn on to Elm, instead of straight ahead on Main.

The S.S. limo driver stopped the vehicle when shots rang out, instead of speeding up, the obvious protocol. If he had sped up, Jackie would have been catapulted off the back of the limo, instead of being shoved back into the limo by the running agent who caught up to the slowly moving car.

+1, thanks.

About the 'anti-semitic link' issue, I notice that anytime there is a criminal conspiracy from the far-right, a host of far right freakshow personalities pop up and contribute 'information' about the issue. Liberty Lobby, Scientologists, Larouchites, Alex Jones, all jump in and report some factual aspects of the scandal, with their whacked out spin and falsehoods added.

Their job is to discredit the non-'nazi wackos' who are reporting the true facts of the issue, to make it easier for willfully ignorant/blind people and actual bad guys to deny the facts. The blind or bad nay-sayers can then ignore or castigate the legit non-nazis by lumping them in with odious groups of people.

And 'conspiracy to commit' charges are a dime-a-dozen in our country's legal system. Two guys talking beforehand about robbing a 7-11 is conspiracy to commit. Frequent and pedestrian. But when big criminal acts occur, the easiest way to derail discussion of the powerful people who planned and executed the criminal act is to 'pooh-pooh' reporting about the facts by typing 'conspiracy theory'. The double think is that the legal system sees 'conspiracies by the low' everywhere in the country, and these blind or bad yutzes simultaneously get to see 'conspiracies by the high' no where, and claim the 'intellectual realist' high ground, all by typing two words. This allows our legal system, which is controlled by people on high, to get away with not prosecuting the high level criminal conspirators, like Judge Fuller, Rove, l'il bush, etc.

Kochs help fund Third Way, maybe? nt

If not Ms. Kennedy, how about Ed Markey? nt

+1. Thanks, Oct, MMM, and s 1 (and some others.)

I miss D & P.

The post-er who keeps insisting that people stop posting, and go obtain and read the 8 zillion volume Warren Report, is a hoot. Typical tactic from people who want to push the boulder down-hill, discussion wise. Demand that people you oppose go perform some 'Hercules cleans out the Augean stables' task. 'Jump through these hoops for me, then come back and post.' Demand that people justify themselves to you, by doing what you tell them, because you're the authority they have to satisfy. Natter away endlessly, don't just post one rebuttal and leave, because you're sure you're 'right'. It's a crusade for 'truth' for you.

The composition of the Warren Commission was a joke. Warren had been threatened with impeachment by the right wing before the Commission, and was in tears when he was forced to helm the commission. The disgraced and forced-out Dulles, smiling for all the photo-ops of the Warren Commission. McCloy helping get the Malmedy Massacre S.S. war criminals' charges dismissed, after his stellar war-time efforts pushing back against Churchill's advice to bomb Auschwitz-Birkenau. The far-right Ford image-spun into a bumbling, affable guy. Hale Boggs' airplane accident. A study of Oswald's pubic hair, and his boy hood dental records.

I'll be back in a month to post, 'stop'bush, as soon as I get on that little task you ordered us to complete.

Exhibits a tenuous grasp of reality for somebody who prizes their clear headed, realistic judgement and thinking.

Mutant from l'il bush's CPA in Iraq reminded me of

Dem Now! 4/23/07:

"Family of Cho Seung Hui "We Feel Hopeless, Helpless and Lost"
Meanwhile the family of the gunman Cho Seung Hui has issued its first public statement. Cho's sister Sun Kyung said " We feel hopeless, helpless and lost. This is someone that I grew up with and loved. Now I feel like I didn't know this person… He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare." Cho's sister Sun Kyung works as a contractor for the State Department's Iraq Reconstruction Management Office. "

Their family emigrated to the U.S. from South Korea, and she had top security clearances.
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