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Member since: Fri Dec 10, 2010, 10:36 PM
Number of posts: 45,538

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Unwarranted. You could have added your data without talking like that.

Americans know what the Australians suffered in WW2 on behalf of the BE as part of the Allies, in the Pacific Theater. It's well documented and part of the reason Australia is part of the Five Eyes that is also part of fighting ISIL.

What has the current Australian economy have to do with WW2 and the commitment of all of the ALLIED forces of which Australia was a part?

You should go to the Wiki page on WW2 casualties to edit it with your data instead of what you said about the graphic. It does not exclude Australia.

It is emblematic of my point, that the Axis did not suffer as much as the Allies did. What has those lives lost got to do with one single graphic? Does it say they were lost in vain?

I don't think so. I respect their sacrifice. I respect my father who fought in the Pacific and went from one island to another until they reached China and cleaned up what the Japanese left in retreat. Australians know this. Americans know this.

I'll try to explain the point of my post, that is about a national will and how we came to be what we are in the world. Note how The Five Eyes include both Australia and NZ:

...The treaty sharing info goes back to WW2.

The entire Anglosphere has been sharing a lot of information offically on the same basis it did during that war. Below is a post by Devon Rex, but most of us knew this for years, just not this well laid out:

I'll spell it out:

UKUSA. It's the SIGINT Intelligence Agreement. BRUSA.

Might as well be signed in blood.


United Kingdom – United States of America Agreement (UKUSA, /juːkuːˈsɑː/ ew-koo-sah) is a multilateral agreement for cooperation in signals intelligence between the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The alliance of intelligence operations is also known as Five Eyes (FVEY). It was first signed in March 1946 by the United Kingdom and the United States and later extended to encompass the three Commonwealth realms of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. The UKUSA Agreement was a follow-up of the 1943 BRUSA Agreement, the World War II agreement on cooperation over intelligence matters. This was a secret treaty, allegedly so secret that it was kept secret from the Australian Prime Ministers until 1973.

The agreement established an alliance of five English-speaking countries for the purpose of sharing intelligence, especially signals intelligence. It formalized the intelligence sharing agreement in the Atlantic Charter, signed in 1941, before the entry of the U.S. into the conflict.


The agreement originated from a ten-page British–U.S. Communication Intelligence Agreement, also known as BRUSA, that connected the signal intercept networks of the U.K. Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) and the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) at the beginning of the Cold War. The document was signed on March 5, 1946 by Colonel Patrick Marr-Johnson for the U.K.'s London Signals Intelligence Board and Lieutenant General Hoyt Vandenberg for the U.S. State–Army–Navy Communication Intelligence Board. Although the original agreement states that the exchange would not be "prejudicial to national interests", the United States often blocked information sharing from Commonwealth countries. The full text of the agreement was released to the public on June 25, 2010.

Under the agreement, the GCHQ and the NSA shared intelligence on the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, and several eastern European countries (known as Exotics). The network was expanded in the 1960s into the Echelon collection and analysis network.

In July 2013, as part of the 2013 Edward Snowden revelations, it emerged that the NSA is paying GCHQ for its services, with at least £100 million of payments made between 2010–13.

Collection mechanisms

The UKUSA alliance is often associated with the ECHELON system; however, processed intelligence is reliant on multiple sources of information and the intelligence shared is not restricted to signals intelligence.

The "Five Eyes" in question are –

USA – National Security Agency
United Kingdom – Government Communications Headquarters
Canada – Communications Security Establishment
Australia – Defence Signals Directorate
New Zealand – Government Communications Security Bureau

Global coverage

Each member of the UKUSA alliance is officially assigned lead responsibility for intelligence collection and analysis in different parts of the globe.


Australia hunts for communications originating in Indochina, Indonesia, and southern China.


Formerly the northern portions of the former Soviet Union and conducting sweeps of all communications traffic that could be picked up from embassies around the world. In the post-Cold War era, a greater emphasis has been placed on monitoring satellite, radio and cellphone traffic originating from Central and South America, primarily in an effort to track drugs and non-aligned paramilitary groups in the region.

New Zealand

The Waihopai Valley Facility—base of the New Zealand branch of the ECHELON Program.
New Zealand is responsible for the western Pacific. Listening posts in the South Island at Waihopai Valley just south-west of Blenheim, and on the North Island at Tangimoana. The Anti-Bases Campaign holds regular protests in order to have the listening posts closed down.

United Kingdom

Europe, Africa, and European Russia.

United States

Monitors most of Latin America, Asia, Asiatic Russia, and northern China.


Devon Rex wrote:

'Might as well be signed in blood.'

That is true. Millions of people died in that war and that's still taken seriously. True, it was before most of us were born but it formed the world we live in.

Australia has supported the actions of the USA and UK for many years since WW2. Do you think NZ and Australia should leave this alliance now?

I'm not getting where the fire is coming from, all out of proportion to my point. I have neither said nor posted anything to offend Australia or NZ.

I made a narrow point, focused on the will of the American people to be involved in stopping ISIL. You have not addressed the point of my comment.

I disagree with Iran supplying nukes to a group that hates them. The reason we are in Afghanistan is

the same reason we are in Pakistan. Iran is not as crazy as it's made out to be but no walk in the park, either for human rights or ending terrorism. Obama has brought them back from extremism, in a relative fashion, despite some of the awful things they have funded.

The Taliban and others like them cross the border from Afghanistan and Pakistan and are being supported by factions in both nations. Pakistan is a nuclear power, but it is dangerously unstable. That's why we're not going to leave, IMO.

Pakistan's neighor India is also a nuclear power but not as unstable. If ISIL gets a bomb, it'll be from there, is what I bet. Iran can cause trouble, but it actually been cited as a nation with no interest in seeing ISIL suceed, except to stir the pot. And if goes too far, it will go against Iran, too. Wrong religion...

And the idea that ISIL has only 20 thousand at its command is wrong. Try something between that and 20 million, and more will be born daily from the sex slavery and forced marriage ISIL is practicing:

‘Apocalyptic’ Isis beyond anything we've seen, say US defence chiefs

Senior Pentagon officials describe militants as ‘apocalyptic’ group that will need to be defeated but maintain limited strikes are sufficient

...(General) Dempsey, an Iraq veteran, has long been sceptical of US military involvement in the Syrian conflict, citing among other reasons the threat to US pilots from dictator Bashar al-Assad’s air defences. He has frustrated those who advocated American involvement in the two neighbouring wars, such as hawkish Republican senator John McCain, who in June called on Obama to fire Dempsey, saying he “has done nothing but invent ways for us not to be engaged.”

Echoing the White House’s stated position, Dempsey said the US needed “a coalition in the region that takes on the task of defeating Isis over time,” something the administration this week has put effort into broadening and strengthening. But the group’s ultimate defeat, the general said, would only come “when it is rejected by the over 20 million disenfranchised Sunnis that happen to reside between Damascus and Baghdad.”


While no doubt only a small percentage of the 20 million displaced people support ISIS, there are a significant number of refugees from the Iraq War. People need to think of these people. They want a new home and ISIL Is promising it.

The demographic of the Arab world (or Middle East as they're not all Arab) is also a difference in what you describe in the era post-WW1 Germany. In the Middle East, last I read, a much larger percentile of the population is under 18 and another part is from 18 to 25, something around 75%, and a lot not getting what they think they deserve.

Some say the West is old and weak, as we spend money on our disabled, elderly and quality of life issues. Youth is raw power to be harnassed no matter what economics they live and die under, and they are fearless. That is why this won't go away any time soon, it will take generations.


President Obama Addresses the Nation on the ISIL Threat

Published on Sep 10, 2014

Speaking from the State Floor in the White House on September 10, 2014, President Obama addressed the nation on the situation in Iraq and the United States’ strategy to degrade and defeat ISIL, a terrorist organization.

President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden meet with members of the National Security Council in the Situation Room of the White House. September 10, 2014. (Official White House Photo by Pete Souza)

FULL TEXT: President Obama's Speech On ISIS

Remarks of President Barack Obama Address to the Nation

My fellow Americans – tonight, I want to speak to you about what the United States will do with our friends and allies to degrade and ultimately destroy the terrorist group known as ISIL.

As Commander-in-Chief, my highest priority is the security of the American people. Over the last several years, we have consistently taken the fight to terrorists who threaten our country. We took out Osama bin Laden and much of al Qaeda’s leadership in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We’ve targeted al Qaeda’s affiliate in Yemen, and recently eliminated the top commander of its affiliate in Somalia. We’ve done so while bringing more than 140,000 American troops home from Iraq, and drawing down our forces in Afghanistan, where our combat mission will end later this year. Thanks to our military and counterterrorism professionals, America is safer.

Still, we continue to face a terrorist threat. We cannot erase every trace of evil from the world, and small groups of killers have the capacity to do great harm. That was the case before 9/11, and that remains true today. That’s why we must remain vigilant as threats emerge. At this moment, the greatest threats come from the Middle East and North Africa, where radical groups exploit grievances for their own gain. And one of those groups is ISIL – which calls itself the “Islamic State.”

Now let’s make two things clear: ISIL is not “Islamic.” No religion condones the killing of innocents, and the vast majority of ISIL’s victims have been Muslim. And ISIL is certainly not a state. It was formerly al Qaeda’s affiliate in Iraq, and has taken advantage of sectarian strife and Syria’s civil war to gain territory on both sides of the Iraq-Syrian border. It is recognized by no government, nor the people it subjugates. ISIL is a terrorist organization, pure and simple. And it has no vision other than the slaughter of all who stand in its way.

In a region that has known so much bloodshed, these terrorists are unique in their brutality. They execute captured prisoners. They kill children. They enslave, rape, and force women into marriage. They threatened a religious minority with genocide. In acts of barbarism, they took the lives of two American journalists – Jim Foley and Steven Sotloff.

So ISIL poses a threat to the people of Iraq and Syria, and the broader Middle East – including American citizens, personnel and facilities. If left unchecked, these terrorists could pose a growing threat beyond that region – including to the United States. While we have not yet detected specific plotting against our homeland, ISIL leaders have threatened America and our allies. Our intelligence community believes that thousands of foreigners – including Europeans and some Americans – have joined them in Syria and Iraq. Trained and battle-hardened, these fighters could try to return to their home countries and carry out deadly attacks.

I know many Americans are concerned about these threats. Tonight, I want you to know that the United States of America is meeting them with strength and resolve. Last month, I ordered our military to take targeted action against ISIL to stop its advances. Since then, we have conducted more than 150 successful airstrikes in Iraq. These strikes have protected American personnel and facilities, killed ISIL fighters, destroyed weapons, and given space for Iraqi and Kurdish forces to reclaim key territory. These strikes have helped save the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children.

But this is not our fight alone. American power can make a decisive difference, but we cannot do for Iraqis what they must do for themselves, nor can we take the place of Arab partners in securing their region. That’s why I’ve insisted that additional U.S. action depended upon Iraqis forming an inclusive government, which they have now done in recent days. So tonight, with a new Iraqi government in place, and following consultations with allies abroad and Congress at home, I can announce that America will lead a broad coalition to roll back this terrorist threat.

Our objective is clear: we will degrade, and ultimately destroy, ISIL through a comprehensive and sustained counter-terrorism strategy.


to cal04:


Posted for members of the BOG, a safe haven created for supporters of the 44th President Barack Obama, his policies, achievements and fellow supporters. We have a SOP posted here.

Adlai E. Stevenson on Republicans and Democrats:

If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.

~ Adlai E. Stevenson

The truth is pretty clear here.

Rachel Maddow - Davis seeks to rouse dormant Democratic giant

Published on Sep 10, 2014

By Licentiathe8th - Sept 9, 2014

Wendy Davis, Texas state senator and Democratic gubernatorial candidate, talks with Rachel Maddow about the long neglected Democratic voting base that she champions in Texas, and why she chose now to go public with her own abortion stories.

to Galraedia:


Thanks! So long as they can't stop the critique of their programs, which is the worst on cable!

Whoever controls the media, controls the mind.

~ Jim Morrison

Paul Craig Roberts: Father of Reaganomics and has long been an idol for Infowars fans.

I was going to post the links to many of the great RW places where he's revered, but will go with his latest. Be scared, very scared:

Don’t expect to live much longer

By Paul Craig Roberts on August 14, 2014

Perhaps the Russian government thought that only Iraq, Libya, Syria, China, and Edward Snowden would be subjected to Washington’s lies and demonization.

It was obvious enough that Russia would be next.

It is hardly surprising that Washington now targets Russia...

Even the president of China comes to Washington to receive acceptance by the Evil Empire...



Evil Empire? His boss Reagan called the USSR that. Is Obama still a godless Muslim Kenyan?

Roberts forgot who he worked for. Iran Contra ring a bell? And he still supports Reagonomics!

I wish I could rec this a million times!

Sheshe, to your point and what will befall those who resist the truth:

James Baldwin debates William F. Buckley Jr. at Cambridge University | The Resolution: “Is the American Dream at the expense of the American Negro?”

Transcript and comment:

Baldwin goes on to eloquently state the affirmative in what has to be one of the most encompassing and moving soliloquies I have ever heard. Excerpts follow, but do not sell yourselves short, watch it in its entirety:

“The white South African or Mississippi sharecropper or Alabama sheriff has at bottom a system of reality which compels them really to believe when they face the Negro that this woman, this man, this child must be insane to attack the system to which he owes his entire identity.”

“In the case of the American Negro, from the moment you are born every stick and stone, every face, is white. Since you have not yet seen a mirror, you suppose you are, too. It comes as a great shock around the age of 5, 6, or 7 to discover that the flag to which you have pledged allegiance, along with everybody else, has not pledged allegiance to you. It comes as a great shock to see Gary Cooper killing off the Indians, and although you are rooting for Gary Cooper, that the Indians are you.”

“From a very literal point of view, the harbors and the ports and the railroads of the country—the economy, especially in the South—could not conceivably be what they are if it had not been (and this is still so) for cheap labor. I am speaking very seriously, and this is not an overstatement: I picked cotton, I carried it to the market, I built the railroads under someone else’s whip for nothing. For nothing.”

"The Southern oligarchy which has still today so very much power in Washington, and therefore some power in the world, was created by my labor and my sweat and the violation of my women and the murder of my children. This in the land of the free, the home of the brave.”

“Sheriff Clark in Selma, Ala., cannot be dismissed as a total monster; I am sure he loves his wife and children and likes to get drunk. One has to assume that he is a man like me. But he does not know what drives him to use the club, to menace with the gun and to use the cattle prod. Something awful must have happened to a human being to be able to put a cattle prod against a woman’s breasts. What happens to the woman is ghastly. What happens to the man who does it is in some ways much, much worse. Their moral lives have been destroyed by the plague called color.”

“It is a terrible thing for an entire people to surrender to the notion that one-ninth of its population is beneath them. Until the moment comes when we, the Americans, are able to accept the fact that my ancestors are both black and white, that on that continent we are trying to forge a new identity, that we need each other, that I am not a ward of America, I am not an object of missionary charity, I am one of the people who built the country—until this moment comes there is scarcely any hope for the American dream. If the people are denied participation in it, by their very presence they will wreck it. And if that happens it is a very grave moment for the West.”


The video is long, but worth it to hear all that Baldwin says to Buckley:

James Baldwin Debates William F. Buckley (1965)

Published on Oct 27, 2012

Historic debate between James Baldwin v. William F. Buckley Jr. at Cambridge University on the question: "Is the American Dream at the expense of the American Negro?"

As far as climbing on their backs, that happened in Ferguson with white OC proponets and white anarchists seeking to divert interest to their cause without even knowing Michael Brown's name. Just vulturing.

Baldwin ended his debate with Buckley in 1965 with these words:

It is a terrible thing for an entire people to surrender to the notion that one-ninth of its population is beneath them. Until the moment comes when we, the Americans, are able to accept the fact that my ancestors are both black and white, that on that continent we are trying to forge a new identity, that we need each other, that I am not a ward of America, I am not an object of missionary charity, I am one of the people who built the country—until this moment comes there is scarcely any hope for the American dream. If the people are denied participation in it, by their very presence they will wreck it. And if that happens it is a very grave moment for the West.

How many like Pat are going to have to learn the hard way?

Many whites are bitter about what they consider unjust losses financially. What did they expect?

Pat has said many times that he fears for western civilization. Even the royal family of the UK has said those days are past.

If Pat was truly concerned about saving what good has been, they better heed Baldwin's words there.

It's the truth. And it has a power of its own, that cannot be stopped.

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