Even though it sometimes gets mistaken for other stuff, like the all-important springboard upon which stage history will write that the giant overthrow of The Dread Space Phallus Patriarchy™, here, once began.



"First, we take Manhattan!"

Hmmm. Good question, I've got some ideas as to what the answer may be. Let me put it this way:

think you're making some kind of goal-scoring points by trying to have a debate with some shit I've never even come close to saying, the exact same tactic you're accusing me of:



No. Actually, you're the one who seems to have the knack for finding that stuff online, not me. The majority of the porn I've seen is people. Having sex. Not "rape" not "misogyny", just sex. Consenting adult sex.
(Unless sex IS rape and misogyny, but no, we wouldn't be saying that, now, would we.) To my mind, preferably the kind where both people are reasonably attractive and both appear to be genuinely enjoying themselves. But, you know, I'm kinky that way.



I'll tell you this, pictures of 2 consenting adults having hot sex doesn't count. Not to my mind.



So it's NOT the people fucking, then, it's the fact that the videos you've seen have come labeled with words like "sluts". Okay, we're getting somewhere.



I'm not steadfastly refusing to do anything. You have your opinion, and I don't agree with it. However, this grows boring, and I will soon steadfastly refuse to continue this game, and this thread will rightfully scoot-aloo down to DU history along with the rest of the threads just like it. Oh, speaking of which: (snork!)



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3044205

Page through it. February of 2005. You'll see the identical points you've been making, even about how it's "so much worse now" (seeing as this was Feb. of 2005, it must be "so so much much worse WORSE now", huh????)
Prrrrretty much. I'll even let you in a little SECRET. You know that line in the Bob Dylan song "Desolation Row" (I forget, 30. Ah, you probably don't, whippersnapper) about "had to rearrange their faces, give them all another name?" Not only is the thread the same, a lot of the fucking PLAYERS are the same. Trust me on this.




Yarble garble farble narg. And I hear your earnest claims on all this stuff, really I do, but Mr. A. Loo, ("Scoot"? You're calling me Warren, so I'm assuming we're on a first name basis, now) no offense, but when I was 30 years old I considered myself quite the expert on a whole bunch of crap. Funny, looking back, my actual adulthood hadn't even really started, and I was even, at times, totally full of shit- obviously very different from the way I am today. Now if you'll excuse me, my bursitis is acting up and I have some whittling to do in my sleep number bed.

I've never seen that. I do know Larry Flynt was shot by a racist for showing interracial sex in one of his magazines, but he's persona non grata on those feminist blogs with the Nice Guy(tm) who frequents the pussy vending machines. No, they don't like Mr. Flynt whatsoever. Your referencing of said blogs is why I figured you would for sure get the 50 shades of grey patriarchy-enabling thing. Oh, well.

Anyway, you seem to have some very SPECIFIC complaints that would probably be best directed to the specific people running the specific porn site you frequent. I know you'll think that's me doing, well, something, but honestly I'm trying to help you straighten this matter out.



Well, speaking of "new", I really can't give you the whole backstory, (try meta! It's fun!) but the MOST recent brou ha ha had nothing to do with porn, rather with a troll who put up a flamebait poll. And who was banned. See, we get all sorts of return trolls here, who come back, pretend to be new people and yet who are strangely, explicitly familiar with the dramas and know exactly which buttons to push to get the board going. Some of them, I think, even do it on purpose, as like a hobby. Snork!



There is probably medication that can help you get Owen Wilson out of your head. Unless you actually ARE Owen Wilson, in which case you belong there. No, my point was, with all the yargle bargle (I'm really enjoying that expression, almost as much as "snork"!) over bullshit concepts like "objectification" and useless, meaningless assertions like "men who only see the women they are having sex with as bodies", I'm wondering, again, what the PROPER set of thoughts a man is supposed to have, while having sex with a woman. Because clearly it's not supposed to have anything to do with naughty, lower chakra shit...like, again, her actual BODY. Or "men objectify women and they treat them as bodies and not people"; so a man is having sex with a woman and he's imagining she's a corpse? Or he's supposed to imagine she's a disembodied spirit? What IS a person, if not contained in a body?

You're young, you've got time to ponder these deep, important questions, don'tcha.

And in your sincere effort to make things better around here, you decided the best, most effective way to do that would be to rehash the porn wars.

Here's an idea; if you want to take on misogyny on DU, why not bring it up with the low post count trolls who posted clearly misogynistic flamebait in the past week? Oh, you can't, because they're banned. So, as a surrogate, you've decided to pick a fight with the majority here -including many self-described feminists- who DON'T have a problem with films of consenting adults nude or fucking, who believe free expression is a force for good, and who think that sexual repression and religious fundamentalism are the problem in our society, not "too much sex" or "hypersexualization"



Okay, so you have come up with a couple totally arbitrary categorizations and sub-categorizations, which conveniently put many things that the members of your audience who might be sympathetic to your argument might themselves like (i.e. sexy stories) in the "non-porn" category, and things that they might not like (i.e. visual depictions of actual sex) in the "porn" category. Then, further on in your post, you pursue the standard trope of conflating the categories of "all graphic depictions of actual sex" (i.e. "hardcore") with things like violence, etc. also -with no statistical basis in fact- implying that it is a "known fact" that one is "becoming more and more like this".

Why not be straight up, and say that it is any pictures or films of sex that you have the problem with (or that is "problematic")?



...according to YOU.



Okay, one, if you're going to a porn video site to read the comments, you're doing it wrong. Second, as has been pointed out, these tags are indicative of little except maybe the low-brow mentality of most porn. And yeah, it's lowbrow. What's the "answer" to that "problematic" situation? I will get to that shortly. But, certainly, those descriptors to tag the videos could be different. To be sure, the videos could be tagged "Thoughtful soul-merging tender intercourse act performed by two sociology grad students" But, that's not how porn videos tend to be tagged. Nevertheless, your assertions on what these labels or words imply or what their sociological import or effect is, are completely speculative and not backed up by anything beyond the fact that you don't like the way the videos are tagged.

Perhaps "bouncy brazilian bubble butt" should be "effervescent spheroidal gluteal region on an individual of South American descent"?



Yeah, that's possible. A lot of things are possible. Is there any evidence for that assertion, other than the fact that there's a lot of porn on the internet and you don't like it? I don't think so.



It's worth noting that Japanese laws on censorship and "obscenity" are a Dworkin-Mackinnon paradise. They are much, much more strict about depictions of actual sex (or as you put it, "hardcore") than the US is. So, by your logic, the violence and sex-related horrible dehumanization problem should be LESS in Japan, right? I mean, if the free and everywhere-porn-problem is driving violence and causing it to be sexualized.

Um, except, that doesn't seem to be borne out by reality, now, does it.

Beyond that, again, I don't know what porn you've been watching. The vast majority of it (you've made totally unsourced claims about "the vast majority", so will I) is exactly what you talk about upthread: Graphic depictions of two (or more) consenting adults having consenting adult sex. Period.



It is? One of the most-cited problems with the film industry in general these days, to me, is that most movies suck. Some of the BEST movies- and tv shows- are ones where the characters aren't cardboard. Empathizing with serial killers? You mean like "Silence of the Lambs" where, by the end, the audience is sort of chuckling about the fava bean thing? Sure, that Oscar Winning film of 20 years ago is a prime example of how THE CULTURE IS GOING WRONG O NOOOOOOO!!!!!!



Oh, did I mention "the horrible culture" and "how horrible the culture is"? You're conflating and mixing up things for the benefit of your audience, so will I:

These guys also think the culture is going horribly, horribly wrong. And porno is bad!









That's YOUR stance (again, subjective opinion despite your OP claiming that this was "the Truth™ about Porn".) MY stance is, maybe if the Japanese would let public hair and penetration be shown in smut, they wouldn't be having all this weird cartoon porn.

Or, maybe they still would.



That's not just "derided on Feminist Blogs", it's, like ONE OF THEIR FAVORITE ALL TIME THINGS TO TALK ABOUT! Oh, my god- if you haven't checked out "I blame the patriarchy", you TOTALLY SHOULD, MAN! It's written by this cranky lady down in Texas or New Mexico or something, I think by day she's a lizard farmer or something.. and she doesn't actually have anything to do with any real man-types herself but she's COMPLETELY an EXPERT on them (men, I mean.. or as she puts it, "teh menz" or "Dooodely doods" or "Dudebrobrodudes" .. she's got all these clever expressions... it's GREAT) well, anyway, that pesky Nice Guy™ who thinks women are "pussy vending machines"... she LOVES TO TALK ABOUT THAT GUY! Well, I guess there's more than one. But anyway, yeah, it MUST be internet porn that is making that happen, because lord knows that horny guys trying to have sex with women are a totally new phenomenon, like the last 15 years tops.



Wait a minute. You claim to have seen a sex position in a porno, then tried it, it didn't feel good, and that's the porno's fault?





Most adults tend to be able to figure out what they like, in their relationships, and that pertains to sex, too. If the idea here is that "someones gonna watch a porno and decide they HAVE to have sex that way and its gonna destroy their relationship" I don't think anyone with that caliber of brainpower is qualified to operate a tv remote, frankly.

The last two paragraphs are, again, more speculative generalization based upon what you personally (presumably) have seen, a rehash of tropes pertaining to the same, then generalizations about how this applies to "all porn" or "most porn" or "how it's so much worse now" (the argument which, again, sounds an awful lot like the argument drug warriors use to convince aging boomers to continue to support criminalization of a plant they, themselves, smoked as youths: "it's so much worse now, you seeeeee") ... and finally, the plea that "we're just pointing it out, we're pointing out how terrible it is" and my favorite "no one wants to censor anything" (except maybe the people who grind their teeth when forced to talk about the first amendment, or otherwise DO want censorship)

So, I promised some solutions to this "problem" which is apparently bugging ya, the solution of "don't watch it if you don't like it" not being good enough (it never is, is it?) .. Here's my solution, and it applies to all bad art, all bad media, all bad horror movies, all bad porn: IF YOU CAN AND WANT TO, DO IT BETTER.

The answer to low brow writing is highbrow writing. The answer to lowbrow movies are better movies. Different movies. Make porn that isn't objectifying, assuming of course one does not buy into the Dworkinite line about how ALL hetero sex* is oppressive and objectifying. Bad art? Make better art.

*"Under Patriarchy", AKA "on Planet Earth"

Beyond that, no one is taking away your right to complain. However, people can also complain about the complaining. And people can complain about that. If history is any guide, they will.



I'll tell you why: Because, one, lecturing people to stop masturbating, or stop looking at pictures of people fucking while they masturbate, is not productive. The people who like porn aren't going to stop liking it. The people who want other people to stop liking porn, probably aren't going to change their minds, either. You aren't going to "educate" anyone out of enjoying looking at attractive members of the opposite (or same) sex, or as the "feminist blogs" put it, "objectification" (I have yet to recieve a workable definition of what the PRECISE difference is between "acceptable" sexual attraction on the basis of physical appearance or characteristics, and the "unacceptable, objectifying" kind). "This needs to change"? How, if you're not advocating censorship? My proposal, again, is that the answer to art you don't like is art you DO like. Don't like porn? Make better porn. As I've pointed out previously, the worst thing to happen to the porn "industry" has been the internet. So maybe MORE freedom, not less, is the answer.

Often the people who farm out a whole bunch of socks at the same time get tripped up when they get flustered, and forget which "one" they're supposed to be. I think some of em eventually wise up and try to keep it down to one or two at a given time, so this doesn't happen.





I also like this exchange. I know I posted this before, but it's worth putting up again:

A thread for, you know, anything. Like, seen on DU.

Okay, I'll start. I saw this on DU:

and then post some essentially meaningless, feel-good thread full of pictures of MLK and quotes that no sane person would ever disagree with, so she could get 200 or so responses going "yeah! Nice thread!" and then somewhere hidden in there would be like, one line trying to tie it back to the shit she had used to piss everyone off. I think she did this with the moon bombing.

It would go something like This:



Good times, good times.

First off, I do believe that Western Civilization, and particularly Western Monotheistic religion, has historically had a patriarchal orientation. I believe that men are certainly coming from a place of privilege, historically. I've said as much, in the Men's Group as well as elsewhere. One would, to my mind, have to be blind or deliberately obtuse not to acknowledge those facts.

HOWEVER, that is not the same thing as agreeing that there is an entity or condition known as "the Patriarchy", which, depending on the strain of Feminism, is imagined either as a universal planetary condition, the original source of ALL oppression, everywhere, and even, yes, a deliberate conspiracy along the lines of the Bildeburgers or the Illuminati. (It is, remember, this "Patriarchy" that is allegedly creating MtF trans "stealth units" to "surveil womynspace".. I'm not making this up.)

Different cultures are, to varying degrees, more or less open, more or less free, more or less equal in terms of allowing individuals the freedom to self-actualize in whatever way those individuals see fit. Ours is better than most (certainly better than most Fundamentalist religious countries of varying stripes) and of course there are varying degrees of free vs. stifling communities in this country as well. I will always err on the side of freedom, of choice, etc.

Is there a history of male privilege and a history of patriarchal organization in Western Civilization? Absolutely. Does that mean "The Patriarchy" is real? I don't think so.


***

Now, to your questions:

If another man called you a woman, how would you feel/react in your mind?

I don't really give a shit what other people think or say about me. That's an honest answer. I think most people don't like being insulted, the criteria for an insult often being whether the target or the insulter feels that what is being said is an insult. We've seen plenty of examples here in meta of women who consider it an insult to be called "a man", so I'm not sure if there's a fundamental societal point that can be made. With regards to me, meh. I know who I am, and I'm too old and have survived too much actual shit to spend much time worrying about what other people think. This feeds into, again, much of the culture hand-wringing I see around these topics. I don't pretend to somehow be completely above the fray, and I acknowledge that I've fortunately spent most of my adult life in tolerant, progressive areas, but I do believe that the fundamental struggle should be making sure everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, everyone is treated fairly, etc. When people say "the culture makes me feel like I need to be attractive" or "the culture makes me feel like I'm fat".. well, okay- I don't want to minimize your feelings, but you can always tell the culture to fuck off. The culture can't MAKE you feel anything, IMHO.

Do you sincerely desire women to be equal to men in every possible, plausible, applicable way?

Yes.

If you were to discover that you are actually in a position of male privilege that you previously did not understand and recognize, would you be willing to abdicate this privilege in favor of becoming completely equal in status to women, out of a personal sincere desire for equality?

That's an open ended question, especially since some people define male privilege as living in a society that insufficiently censors sexy ads or films of consenting adults fucking. I'd have to know the specifics, but beyond that I would refer you to my previous answer.


Hope this helps.

on their entire ideological laundry list, starting with but not limited to the dubious axiom that ALL oppression that has ever existed, everywhere, is fallout from "The Patriarchy", the spooky pervasive subject of a conspiracy theory rivaling the ones involving the Illuminati, the Elders of Zion or the Space Lizards from Zeta Reticuli.

Except, the vast majority of DU does NOT agree.




..."Which is crumbling, by the way"

Mmmm Hmmmm.