HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » madfloridian » Journal
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU
Page: « Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 40 Next »


Profile Information

Gender: Female
Hometown: Florida
Member since: 2002
Number of posts: 81,010

About Me

Retired teacher who sees much harm to public education from the "reforms" being pushed by corporations. Privatizing education is the wrong way to go. Children can not be treated as products, thought of in terms of profit and loss.

Journal Archives

Campbell Brown lawsuit fights due process rights for NY teachers. Robert Gibbs battles teachers also

Former Obama Spokesmen Join Attack on Teacher Tenure and Seniority

Stephanie Simon reports at politico.com that former high-level Obama advisors will help the fight against teacher unions and due process rights. Campbell Brown, a former CNN anchor who is highly antagonistic to teachers’ unions, is creating an organization to pursue a Vergara-style lawsuit in New York against teachers’ job protections. Her campaign will have the public relations support of an agency led by Robert Gibbs, former Obama Press Secretary, and Ben LaBolt, former Obama campaign spokesman.

Simon writes:

“Teachers unions are girding for a tough fight to defend tenure laws against a coming blitz of lawsuits — and an all-out public relations campaign led by former aides to President Barack Obama.

“The Incite Agency, founded by former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs and former Obama campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt, will lead a national public relations drive to support a series of lawsuits aimed at challenging tenure, seniority and other job protections that teachers unions have defended ferociously. LaBolt and another former Obama aide, Jon Jones — the first digital strategist of the 2008 campaign — will take the lead role in the public relations initiative.”

To have cheaper teachers, more temporary type teachers, fewer career teachers....they must overcome any job security or due process that exists. Then the layoffs can begin, and the private teacher recruitment companies can step in with their recruits for which they charge districts several thousand dollars each.

Weigh that against the fact that hiring local laid off teachers is free of charge and benefits the local economy.

The billionaire reformers have the money and power. The public schools do not have the resources to fight such battles.

This is the policy of this administration. This is the education reform they seek and are getting.

The Obama Administration Picks a Fight With Teachers Unions

The Obama Administration Picks a Fight With Teachers Unions

Arne Duncan, President Barack Obama’s education secretary, was scorned last week by teachers union leaders and their supporters for applauding a California judge’s tentative ruling that the state’s teacher tenure laws are unconstitutional. “This decision presents an opportunity for a progressive state with a tradition of innovation to build a new framework for the teaching profession that protects students’ rights to equal educational opportunities while providing teachers the support, respect, and rewarding careers they deserve,” Duncan said.

Randi Weingarden, president of the American Federation of Teachers, chastised Duncan in an open letter for failing to defend California’s tenure rules. “Teachers across the country are wondering why the secretary of education thinks that stripping them of their due process is the way to help all children succeed,” Weingarten lamented in the letter, which was clearly meant to gird her members for battle.

The education writer Diane Ratvich, a staunch opponent of tenure reform efforts, went further, posting Duncan’s statement on the ruling on her website and arguing that it sounded like the words of a Republican. “Not a word about the real causes of unequal opportunity: poverty and segregation,” Ratvich wrote. “Who would have believed that a Democratic administration would … hail a court decision removing due process from public school teachers? Mitt Romney’s Secretary of Education (had he won) could have issued this press release.”

It is unexpected to see a top Obama administration official staking out a position so at odds with teachers unions. They are, after all, a key part of the the Democratic Party’s base. But Duncan’s praise for Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Rolf Treu’s June 10 decision speaks volumes about the ruling’s potential to change the public education system in the U.S.

The article states that the teachers involved in the ruling received tenure after just 18 months. I don't think that is or has been the issue. After all Florida teachers lost tenure and due process in 2011. Florida teachers could not have received tenure for 3 years. That was plenty of time for good decisions to be made. Those pushing this issue simply want teachers to lose due process.

If teachers can be fired at the whim of administrators, that leaves them vulnerable to angry students, frustrated parents who refuse to believe their child can do wrong....and administrators with a punitive attitude.

Shocking view of rape from David Coe, son of the present leader of The Family, the Fellowship.

I've been reading about the outrageous words of George Will about rape. It's hard to wrap my mind around the attitudes that seem to be prevailing lately by the right wing.

I remembered something I had read in an article by Jeff Sharlet, author of The Family. It was in Salon in 2009.

We know that The Family was originally founded as an anti-labor movement by Abraham Vereides.

It was a movement more about power and making political contacts than about religion. The present leader is Doug Coe.

His son, David Coe, made some very strange remarks about those who rape as quoted by Jeff Sharlet in this article about C Street.

Sex and power inside “the C Street House”

Family leaders consider their political network to be Christ’s avant garde, an elite that transcends not just conventional morality but also earthly laws regulating lobbying. In the Family’s early days, they debated registering as “a lobby for God’s Kingdom.” Instead, founder Abraham Vereide decided that the group could be more effective by working personally with politicians. “The more invisible you can make your organization,” Vereide’s successor, current leader Doug Coe preaches, “the more influence you can have.” That’s true — which is why we have laws requiring lobbyists to identify themselves as such.

But David Coe, Doug Coe’s son and heir apparent, calls himself simply a friend to men such as John Ensign, whom he guided through the coverup of his affair. I met the younger Coe when I lived for several weeks as a member of the Family. He’s a surprising source of counsel, spiritual or otherwise. Attempting to explain what it means to be chosen for leadership like King David was — or Mark Sanford, according to his own estimate — he asked a young man who’d put himself, body and soul, under the Family’s authority, “Let’s say I hear you raped three little girls. What would I think of you?” The man guessed that Coe would probably think that he was a monster. “No,” answered Coe, “I wouldn’t.” Why? Because, as a member of the Family, he’s among what Family leaders refer to as the “new chosen.” If you’re chosen, the normal rules don’t apply.

Their support of dictators around the world who commit atrocities is also a shocking stance, and it seems to prove the point about the group being about power....not about religion.

If the Family men who stood over John Ensign as he wrote a baldly insincere breakup letter to his mistress were naive about hearts that want what they want, they don’t claim ignorance about the strongmen with whom they build bonds of prayer and foreign aid. They admire them. Counseling Rep. Tiahrt, Doug Coe offered Pol Pot and Osama bin Laden as men whose commitment to their causes is to be emulated. Preaching on the meaning of Christ’s words, he says, “You know Jesus said ‘You got to put Him before mother-father-brother sister? Hitler, Lenin, Mao, that’s what they taught the kids. Mao even had the kids killing their own mother and father. But it wasn’t murder. It was for building the new nation. The new kingdom.”

Sickening! 22 yr old assisted living supervisor won't let staff call 911. 80 yr old patient dies.

The only degree this 22 year old supervisor of an assisted living facility holds is that of Florida Nursing Assistant. Yet she held that man's life in her hands. I can not imagine not calling 911 for such an event as this.

This is a reputable well-known facility, so this is especially scary in my mind.

Assisted Living Supervisor Arrested After 80-Year-Old Lakeland Resident Dies

An investigation by the state Attorney General's Office found that an 80-year-old man who needed medical attention at a Lakeland assisted living facility died after a facility supervisor wouldn't let staff members call 911 for nearly four hours. The supervisor has been charged with neglect.

Rachel White Mobley, 22, who was promoted to executive director of the Grace Manor at Lake Morton facility at 610 Lime St. after the April 2013 incident, faces one count of neglect of an elderly person, a second-degree felony.

...At 11:30 p.m. on April 29, 2013, Burrows went to the nursing station and complained that he had a stabbing pain in his eye, the affidavit said, and facility employees Kristal Stowell and Samantha Spivey watched Burrows and saw that he was getting worse.

Mobley was called 6 times and asked permission to call 911. She finally told them to call the on-call health care agency.

In one of the calls, Mobley told Stowell to call the on-call home health agency. When Stowell did, the agency told Stowell to call 911, but Mobley still would not let her, according to the report.

It was later determined Burrows had a stroke.

Paramedics took Burrows to Lakeland Regional Medical Center at 3:42 a.m., and a CT scan showed that Burrows had a brain hemorrhage, the report said.

Burrows died at 7:25 a.m.

Burrows was chaplain at a local hospital for 26 years.

Why is a 22 year old woman with such poor judgment in charge of so many senior citizens and able to make life and death decisions for them?

From what I can gather from the article, this incident happened last year and has been being investigated all this time.

Okay, here we go. I edited this post to bold my exact words about age. Please note the words "with such poor judgement" . I also bolded part of the first paragraph to list her only degree which in most minds should not qualify her to lead a senior facility.

One can not win for losing here at DU now. She was arrested, the Attorney General said she was not qualified for the executive director position she was appointed to after Burrow's death. She is on administrative leave.

Tiny sculptures in Europe give chilling view of climate change and apathetic politicians.

Artist Isaac Cordal's Incredible Tiny Sculptures Offer a Chilling View of Climate Change

Climate change and the ills of capitalism are often harped on as two of the biggest threats to society, but many of us have trouble picturing such far-off threats. Artist Issac Cordal offers us a new perspective on these issues through his provocative series of tiny cement sculptures that challenge our views of society. Thoughtfully arranged without the need for exposition, these miniaturized scenes are often arranged as site-specific street art interventions.

.....Isaac Cordal is famous for tackling big political issues through a tiny medium. In his series “Waiting for Climate Change,” Cordal created a set of ephemeral and partially submerged installations to draw attention to rising sea level change. Laced with black humor, these grim and apocalyptic scenes show the consequences of inaction and apathy to environmental issues. The theme of rising floodwaters and drowning are themes repeated throughout his work that reference both climate change and the state of our sinking society.

One site called this politicians talking about climate change. I don't know the sculptor's name for it.

In his series "Waiting for Climate Change," Cordal created a set of ephemeral and partially submerged installations to draw attention to rising sea level change.

Some of Cordal's miniature sculptors are social commentary.

Cordal's miniature world

With the simple act of miniaturization and thoughtful placement, Isaac Cordal magically expands the imagination of pedestrians finding his sculptures on the street. The art work intends to catch the attention on our devalued relation with the nature through a critical look to the collateral effects of our evolution.
Isaac Cordal is sympathetic toward his little people and you can empathize with their situations, their leisure time, their waiting for buses and even their more tragic moments such as accidental death, suicide or family funerals.

The sculptures can be found in gutters, on top of buildings, on top of bus shelters; in many unusual and unlikely places in Barcelona, Nantes, Brussels, Berlin, London and many more, so keep your eyes open, you might just spot one.

To give some perspective on size this page has pictures

Here is one.

Seen on Twitter. Perfect way to handle Iraq....

VWAimlessly ‏@VWAimlessly

So... we need to ask the #GOP and #TeaParty what to do in Iraq and do the exact opposite. #solved

Also seen on Twitter this week.

Bush paints flowers while his legacy, Iraq, burns.

Courtesy @bennydiego

FL school asks parents aid in paying teachers. Then decides to open another school.

This is why I object to charter and/or private voucher schools because of their unregulated character. A deacon at their new church host even said they were not worried about the debt because God would provide.

Well, guess what, the state has provided money to them already close to 2 million dollars. They receive voucher money from the state as they teach autistic students.

Here are 3 articles about the Monarch School in Polk County. In spite of their financial problems, it does not seem anyone locally or state wide is stepping to stop them from opening yet another school. And getting more voucher money.

Lakeland's Monarch School for Autistic Children Beset by Financial Struggles

A South Lakeland school for autistic children is struggling with financial problems and had to pay its 18 teachers late, according to its CEO.

In a letter to parents Thursday, Amy Arnold, CEO of the Monarch School, asked them to help by making sure tuition and child care fees are up to date at the 5-year-old school.

"So I appeal to you all now, as part of our family, please help me to ensure that I never have to ask a teacher to wait on their paycheck," Arnold wrote. "We will all be tightening our belts.

"But please, if you are able, email me and let me know what you can do to help us so that our teachers can pay their rent and feed their babies this summer."


South Lakeland's Monarch School Still Struggling To Pay Staff

Earlier this month, the school's 18 teachers were paid five days late, according to the school.

Guard said Monarch's treasurer, Steve Arnold, who is married to Amy Arnold, told him all the teachers were expected to be paid today.

To exacerbate the financial issues, Guard said, "a couple" of the checks paid to teachers on June 3 bounced.

Besides the payroll issue, the school's accountant said Thursday he hasn't been paid

And now they are planning to open another school in spite of the fact that teachers' paychecks are bouncing.

Financially Struggling Lakeland Monarch School Plans to Open New School in Zephyrhills

Administrators at a financially struggling South Lakeland school for children with autism plan to open a new school at a Zephyrhills church.

Steve Warrell, a deacon at Zephyrhills First Assembly Church, said he plans to sign a lease today with Amy Arnold, Monarch school CEO, and her husband, Steve, the school's treasurer.

It's unclear what the new school means for the Lakeland school.

Neither of the Arnolds returned a phone message Monday.

A deacon at the Zephyhills church where the new school will open said:

He isn't worried about the financial problems at the Lakeland school.

"We trust people," Warrell said. "We'll put it in God's hands."

Monarch received $758,370 in McKay Scholarship money in 2013. From 2011 to 2013, the Lakeland school received a total of $1.9 million in McKay Scholarship money.

McKay scholarships are in effect vouchers for students with learning problems or disabilities.

I edited the post a little per discussion in comments whether it is private or charter. I did find another article from Zephyrhills about the new school.

Families scramble to find new school location for students with autism

The article points out that their old school for autistic children was abandoned by a charter management company called Quest.

However, after fielding offers from various local organizations seeking to replace Quest Inc and unsuccessful negotiations between parents, HOPE Youth Ranch and other candidates, the “right fit” was found.

Monarch School of Lakeland was awarded the contract, but more problems arose once parents expressed concern regarding potential tuition increases under the school’s new management. The transition was also threatened by parents’ doubts regarding the certification of the new teachers that would be employed through the company.

However the issues have since been resolved and a lease between parents and administrators at the new site is expected to be signed within days.

Doesn't say more about what kind of management company, still doesn't clarify private or charter.

Also I learned to my surprise that there are public and private schools that receive McKay Scholarship vouchers. So that doesn't help in determining.

Office of Magnet, Choice & Federal Programs

Fascinating interaction..Coe, George Bush, the Clintons. Paragraph from The New Yorker.

This one paragraph from the New Yorker article in the OP really surprised me in several ways. It's about who "got it" and who didn't.

If international dignitaries view the Prayer Breakfast as a reliable means of unofficial access, some Presidents—most notably, Bill Clinton—have been more accommodating than others. “Bill and Hillary got it,” says Doug Burleigh, who is Coe’s son-in-law, and a key figure in the Fellowship. “They came early, they’d meet with the groups early and do a photo op with ’em, hug ’em. They got what this was about.” George W. Bush, on the other hand, made it clear to Coe and the others from the start that he’d show up at the Prayer Breakfast but not to expect much more. “George came late, and left early—he did every year,” Burleigh says. “Now, I appreciate his honesty. He told Doug, ‘You know, this isn’t my thing.’ ”After Bush’s first, perfunctory appearance, Clinton telephoned Coe to console him. “He didn’t badmouth Bush, he gave it the best spin,” Burleigh recalls. “He said, ‘Hey, Bush’ll get it. He doesn’t understand what this thing’s about.’ ”


Not what I would have expected.

The Family was founded as an anti-labor movement. More about power than religion.

These quotes are from a couple of pages of Jeff Sharlet's book, The Family. I transcribed them from my copy of the book. I did that after reading some words in a Democracy Now interview with Sharlet, which indicated that Abraham Vereides founded the group in the 30s to fight against the labor movement.

This part showed a sharp contrast between the wealthy and the workers. They seemed to take the efforts of the unions to gain power very personally...or as Sharlet once said Vereides considered it a challenge to God's sovereignty. From page 104 about the 1934 union strikes:

Seven hundred policemen in dark blue patrolled the waterfront on foot and in black cars and on high chestnut horses. Twice that number and more picketed and searched for strikebreakers. The middle class began contemplating last minute vacations. The wives of the wealthy bunkered up at the Union Club, where Abram led prayer meetings for businessmen. As the blue tear gas sent tendrils up the hill, they must have felt frustrated by his optimistic lessons in biblical capitalism. Scripture has much to say about honest dealing and even more about handling the heathen, but not once does it mention organized labor.

From page 108:

The strike went on, but the shippers were defeated by the time the coffins went into the ground. Their old beliefs could not compete. Management-capital-would require a new faith if it was to survive.

The strike of 1934 scared Abram into launching the movement that would become the vanguard of elite fundamentalism, and elite fundamentalism took as its first challenge the destruction of militant labor. Destruction was not the word Christians used however. They called it cooperation.

There is more about Vereide in The New Yorker for September 2013. This is one of the best articles I have read about the Family, the Fellowship. It is very long and detailed. If you are really interested it is worth the time to read it.

Frat House for Jesus. The entity behind C Steet

When the big preachers came through Oregon in the early nineteen-fifties, Billy Graham among them, they all stopped by to visit Hatfield, and Coe began to develop a network of important connections. One who made a lasting impression was a Norwegian immigrant named Abraham Vereide, a Methodist preacher who had created a unique ministry that existed outside the organized churches and aimed to change the world by changing the hearts of leaders.

Vereide had arrived in America, which he called the “land of the unchained Bible,” in 1905, at the age of eighteen, with a burning zeal and uncommon drive. He soon made his way from preaching a horseback circuit to a prominent pulpit in downtown Seattle. On his recommendation, the city’s civic leaders created the program that came to be known as Goodwill Industries, putting people to work at reclaiming and reselling surplus goods. In 1934, in a meeting with nineteen of the city’s civic leaders, Vereide proposed that they try to order their lives according to the principles of Jesus. They met again the next week, and the next, with the understanding that the gatherings were utterly secret. “This was an intimate circle,” Vereide wrote, according to “Modern Viking,” a privately published authorized biography by Norman Grubb. “We didn’t dare tell anybody what was going on, or even include anyone else,” Vereide continued. “It was a sharing fellowship.” Vereide began to hear from men across the country (Fiorello LaGuardia sought him out on a trip West), and what had evolved into the prayer-breakfast idea became a national movement. At Vereide’s instigation, a prayer group was started in the House, and then in the Senate, and they continue today. In 1953, Vereide’s friend Senator Frank Carlson, of Kansas, invited the new President, Dwight Eisenhower, to attend a prayer breakfast. It was the first instance of what has become the National Prayer Breakfast, attended annually by every President since.

The real work of the movement, though, was in the small groups of top men (as Vereide described his mission field) which proliferated across the country. Sam Shoemaker, the New York Episcopal priest who helped to devise the Twelve Step program for Alcoholics Anonymous, in the nineteen-thirties, was Vereide’s close friend and adviser, and made key connections for him in New York and in Washington. Thomas Watson, of I.B.M., summoned Vereide to discuss his groups, as did Marvin Coyle, the president of Chevrolet, and J. C. Penney. Prayer groups were spreading overseas, and, by the end of the nineteen-fifties, with Vereide in his seventies, the core group of men around him decided to bring younger blood into the leadership circle. Doug Coe was recruited into the organization, which was then called International Christian Leadership, as field director, in 1959, and when Vereide died, a decade later, Coe effectively became his successor.

Here is a video about Doug Coe and his influence. In this one he speaks of the kind of power wielded by Chairman Mao and Hitler. He actually compares it to what Jesus expects of us. It is a segment by Brian Williams and Andrea Mitchell at NBC in I believe 2008.

Take time to read the notes under it, click the More section. That is basically the NBC transcript of the Coe section.

There was an amazingly thorough post at Daily Kos in 2008 by Frederick Clarkson. He pulls a lot of stuff together. I remember the enormous amount of recommends this post had because people there recognized that ultimately this group is about power more than religion, that it is making contacts around the world with important people.

NBC News on Sen. Clinton & "The Family"

Access, and networking connections among the powerful is an important part of the modus operandi of The Family.

Sharlet and Joyce reported:

When Time put together a list of the nation's 25 most powerful evangelicals in 2005, the heading for Coe's entry was "The Stealth Persuader." "You know what I think of when I think of Doug Coe?" the Reverend Schenck (a Coe admirer) asked us. "I think literally of the guy in the smoky back room that you can't even see his face. He sits in the corner, and you see the cigar, and you see the flame, and you hear his voice—but you never see his face. He's that shadowy figure."

Coe has been an intimate of every president since Ford, but he rarely imposes on chief executives, who see him as a slightly mystical but apolitical figure. Rather, Coe uses his access to the Oval Office as currency with lesser leaders. "If Doug Coe can get you some face time with the President of the United States," one official told the author of a Princeton study of the National Prayer Breakfast last year, "then you will take his call and seek his friendship. That's power."

There's more from Clarkson, but from another source so I am not breaking copyright.

When Clinton first came to Washington in 1993, one of her first steps was to join a Bible study group. For the next eight years, she regularly met with a Christian "cell" whose members included Susan Baker, wife of Bush consigliere James Baker; Joanne Kemp, wife of conservative icon Jack Kemp; Eileen Bakke, wife of Dennis Bakke, a leader in the anti-union Christian management movement; and Grace Nelson, the wife of Senator Bill Nelson, a conservative Florida Democrat.

Clinton's prayer group was part of the Fellowship (or "the Family"), a network of sex-segregated cells of political, business, and military leaders dedicated to "spiritual war" on behalf of Christ, many of them recruited at the Fellowship's only public event, the annual National Prayer Breakfast. (Aside from the breakfast, the group has "made a fetish of being invisible," former Republican Senator William Armstrong has said.) The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.

The Fellowship isn't out to turn liberals into conservatives; rather, it convinces politicians they can transcend left and right with an ecumenical faith that rises above politics. Only the faith is always evangelical, and the politics always move rightward.

This is in line with the Christian right's long-term strategy. Francis Schaeffer, late guru of the movement, coined the term "cobelligerency" to describe the alliances evangelicals must forge with conservative Catholics. Colson, his most influential disciple, has refined the concept of cobelligerency to deal with less-than-pure politicians. In this application, conservatives sit pretty and wait for liberals looking for common ground to come to them. Clinton, Colson told us, "has a lot of history" to overcome, but he sees her making the right moves.

It also is a long post, but well worth the read.

The Family, the Fellowship, is on the surface about religion. But it is underneath about power and political contacts.

Contrast pre-Iraq war views of Bob Graham and the Clintons. We need to remember.

The archived Palm Beach Post is unavailable, but I saved the important pages. Here's the original link from 2004. It was a long article:


Here is what I saved from it. I have posted it before, but he deserves much credit for his stance.

Graham: "frankly, my friends. ... the blood's going to be on your hands."

..."On Oct. 9, 2002, Graham — the guy everyone thought of as quiet, mild-mannered, deliberate, conflict-averse — let loose on his Senate colleagues for going along with President Bush's war against Iraq.

"We are locking down on the principle that we have one evil, Saddam Hussein. He is an enormous, gargantuan force, and that's who we're going to go after," Graham said on the floor. "That, frankly, is an erroneous reading of the world. There are many evils out there, a number of which are substantially more competent, particularly in their ability to attack Americans here at home, than Iraq is likely to be in the foreseeable future."

He told his fellow senators that if they didn't recognize that going to war with Iraq without first taking out the actual terrorists would endanger Americans, "then, frankly, my friends — to use a blunt term — the blood's going to be on your hands."

It was a watershed moment. Gone was the meticulous thinker who would talk completely around and through a problem before answering a question about it...

From CNN 2004 the words of Bill Clinton:

Clinton defends successor's push for war

"I have repeatedly defended President Bush against the left on Iraq, even though I think he should have waited until the U.N. inspections were over," Clinton said in a Time magazine interview that will hit newsstands Monday, a day before the publication of his book "My Life."

Clinton, who was interviewed Thursday, said he did not believe that Bush went to war in Iraq over oil or for imperialist reasons but out of a genuine belief that large quantities of weapons of mass destruction remained unaccounted for.

"I want it to have been worth it, even though I didn't agree with the timing of the attack," Clinton said.

It wasn't worth it.

And some powerful quotes from Hillary Clinton which make it hard to believe her apology now. From ABC news 2008:

Hillary and the Iraqi People

"Around the world we have to restore American leadership and our moral authority and that begins by ending the war in Iraq and bringing our troops home," Clinton said, per ABC News’ Eloise Harper. "I know that we can starting within 60 days have a plan to begin responsibly and safely withdrawing our young men and women.

"And I believe that at the same time that we have to make clear to the Iraqis that they have been given the greatest gift that a human being can give another human being – the gift of freedom. And it is up to them to decide how they will use that precious gift that has been paid for with the blood and sacrifice and treasure of the United States of America.

"And it is time for the Iraqis to demonstrate that they understand that there is no military solution — American troops can not stay there, contrary to my friend John McCain who is suggesting they be there 50 to 100 years. No they are going to start coming home if I am president within 60 days and they will keep coming home."

I doubt the Iraqis are feeling very enthusiastic about all that freedom now.

I remember all the posts here before the invasion about what would happen once we were there. Most of the thoughts here were that it would descend into chaos.

I think we were right on that.

I do not think President Obama has been left with good options at this time. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't jump in.

Go to Page: « Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 40 Next »