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Member since: 2001
Number of posts: 35,001

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And if you're REALLY "pro-life," you are COMPELLED to do these things, to back up what you say.

If they want all these unwanted babies to be born, then are THEY willing to step up and adopt them all? Feed them? Clothe them? Make sure they have something better than a dilapidated car or door stop somewhere, or homeless shelter? Educate them? Stimulate their creativity and their minds? Make sure they stay healthy? Raise them "right"? Or if you can't be bothered to do it yourself, are you prepared to pay taxes for the social services that pick up the slack and care for these unwanteds? Hello? Somebody? Anybody? What happens AFTER that baby's born? THAT is when you abandon it, pro-lifers? THAT is when you turn your backs and say - "okie dokey, you're on your own! Go get a job!"?

They have to be forced to OWN this. To understand what they're saying and OWN it. OWN IT ALL, in ALL its "glory." And I suspect that when they DO have to look at it more closely and a little more deeply down than just the surface sloganeering, they're gonna start questioning this belief. Some of the solid stands that hold up this whole phony canard will start weakening, and the whole construct won't stand up so straight or securely anymore. BECAUSE IT CAN'T!!! Or at least they might start becoming open to modifying it so it's not so extreme and closed-minded. Kinda like the stop sign that was finally set up on our street. NO it won't stop the speeders and the scofflaws. It hasn't. BUT, they HAVE had to slow down a little. And for those of us neighbors who have to cross the street or walk our dogs or push our baby strollers or whatever - even THAT is a welcome improvement.

Yes. Thank you! I would be honored.

I think we need to start attacking them at their supposed "strength." Hell, kkkarl rove made a career of it. Why can't we? Why is that somehow a no-no if assholes like him do it? I COMPLETELY disagree with those who say - "oh, but we CAN'T!" "We can't do what they're doing!" "If we stoop to their level, it makes us no better than those assholes!" And other such stuff.

And I say - SCREW IT!!!!! You gonna turn your nose up at what works? Just because the bad guys do it? Sorry to be so blunt, but the object here is to WIN. TO WIN. Because if you don't win, you don't govern. If you don't win, you don't set the agenda. If you don't win, you don't get to bring up the votes to the House. If you don't win, the OTHER side gets all those parliamentary privileges. If you don't win, you don't get to call the shots. If you don't win, you're always stuck on defense, always reacting instead of acting, always having to respond to somebody else's offensive - when that should be YOUR ideas starting and ending the discussion and getting the attention and the initiative. If you don't win, YOUR ideas and YOUR agenda don't get advanced. Hell, as we've seen, they don't even come UP! They aren't even allowed to be brought up for a vote. They're summarily shut out. So the best way to change that is to WIN.

I see this as a hidden weak spot that can be punched at and picked at and exploited and chipped away. Like they've done against Roe v Wade. Punched it and kicked it and weakened it and started picking it apart and fraying it around the edges, and now look at it. Like a galaxy of hungry moths attacked your best cashmere sweater. It's full of holes and in tatters and almost every leg it stood on has been eaten away, out from under it. Look at the ACA. Look what they're trying to do to THAT.

WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE DO THAT TO THEM???????? Taste of their own medicine! See how they like it! And seems to me this kind of approach also attacks, questions, and weakens a whole lot of other issues on their list as well. In addition, it starts to get to the bottom of the lazy approach to politics. Hang it on some buzz phrase or bumper sticker slogan that's quick and neat - and keep pounding that in, and pretty soon it becomes just kinda automatically accepted and verified without question. Nobody bothers to think about it, what it means, what it says, what it's over-arching consequences are. It's a notion that fuels a whole mindset. Look how many ways attacking the very essence, the very foundation, of that "pro-life" canard can be applied as a weapon against them to weaken and compromise a whole host of OTHER arguments they make.

It provokes a "re-think."

It digs down a little deeper - a "hey, wait a minute, I didn't think about that..." moment. A "hmmm... come to think of it, that DOESN'T really make sense now, does it..." or "hmmm... never looked at it that way..." or "hmmm... gee, I guess I never thought of THAT..." or "oh yeah... "

Like when my son started talking this big talk about how he was all adult now and had it together and about all the benefits of getting his own place and so forth. Sounds good, doesn't it! But then when you apply a bit of a reality-check like - "um, honey, you can't even GET YOURSELF UP to your own alarm clock in the morning" the response was this little moment of revelation and a return to Reality World on terra firma rather than floating around up in the fantasy clouds somewhere. A little murmurred "oh yeah..." A little light went on in there. Something else was brought to his attention. The REALITY of his big talk just hadn't occurred to him. It's not just talk. It's not what simply SOUNDS good. You have to be able to back it up in the WORLD OF REALITY. When ALL the facts are in, not just the fancy slogan that gets to stand there by itself without being closely looked at, examined, or understood at all its levels and with all its ramifications.

It's one thing to parrot - "Pro-life!" "Pro-life!" "Pro-life!" And those saying it, for the most part, don't even really have a grip on WHAT THAT MEANS. What does it MEAN? Do you know WHAT YOU'RE REALLY ADVERTISING HERE? Do you understand what being TRULY AND GENUINELY AND ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY "pro-life" MEANS????? IF INDEED you want to hold onto that view and push it down the throats of everybody else around you, you really do, seriously, have to understand what it means to be "pro-life." And most of you are not going to find it as comfortable a fit as you thought.

They're PROGRAMMED on that end. Brainwashed. They've heard the talking points again and again and again and again and again and that's what the result is. Once upon a time I heard limbaugh say, ON THE AIR, "you don't even HAVE TO think! I'LL do the thinking FOR you!!!" And he was only half-joking. His listeners probably thought that was pretty clever and funny. But no. It was serious. Make no mistake. He MEANT it. And he meant it much more deeply than he knew his audiences would consider it. There was an ulterior motive working.

They don't WANT you to think. They don't want you to think about anything more closely. They don't want to have these statements and slogans analyzed and fact-tested and proven out. Probably a key reason why they denounce science. That's why kkkarl rove has even been quoted as saying "too much education is not necessarily a good thing." Because the more you know and the deeper you think about these issues, the more likely you're gonna find the holes and hypocrisies in them, and how those talking points just really don't hold up in the real world. They've denounced and demeaned academia because it's supposedly all pointy-headed liberals. It's not cool to be smart. It's hip to be stupid and just open wide and swallow it whole. You shouldn't HAVE to prove something. Too much hard work! You should just be able to parrot slogans and talking points. And by now they've probably done it so often that their analytical thinking has completely atrophied. That's probably one reason why folks on that side gravitate to this kind of behavior - and to religion, specifically. With religion, you're taught to TAKE IT ON FAITH. BECAUSE. BECAUSE God Says. Because it's a miracle. Because it's a "mystery" (that was a big one in Catholic school as I recall. That's how they explained away a whole bunch of incongruous things). You're not supposed to question. You're not supposed to analyze it and look closely at it and examine it and test it to see if it holds up. You're not supposed to dig deep. Surface-only - that's all you need. You're just supposed to swallow it and then spew it back out to other heathens and convert them. And they're supposed to give their minds over, too, and stop thinking for themselves and stop looking more closely and critically and objectively at what they're being constantly force-fed. Don't worry your little heads about what we're feeding you. Just close your eyes and open your mouths and take it in. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

And we have to BREAK that. We have to present these other ideas that might make some of them start to open their eyes and look at what they're being force-fed, for a change. It might not fit so well, or make as much sense, when they actually have to LOOK at it. And consider the ramifications of it. It's not just simplistic sloganeering. What the bad guys are selling NEEDS closer scrutiny. REQUIRES it. People especially on THAT side of the aisle need to be invited and encouraged to THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THAT'S how we start fixing this problem.

OMG!!!!! Those photos!

I'm laughing so hard I'm all mung'd up and can't breathe, damn you!

OMG!!!! Every time I click on a new photo, it's my new favorite photo, until I click on the next one and THAT then becomes my new favorite photo, and so on! I'm laughing so hard I'm messing up my husband who's trying to study something at the moment!

I only know one thing.

I GOTTA go to one of these!!!

GOING ON OFFENSE Part Six: CHALLENGE the "pro-lifers." Because they're NOT what they say they are.

I was asked to make this post from an earlier thread into an OP:


So I figured it might be good to continue with a crazy little series started earlier this month...

They are NOT "pro-life" if they:

1) cheer and hunger for executions. (Okay, some horrible offenders do have to suffer the ultimate penalty. But to cheer and hoot and slobber for blood and revenge??? Excuse me???)
2) push for legislation that endangers a WOMAN'S life by forcing pregnancy on her that cannot be terminated, even to save her.
3) push for legislation that endangers a WOMAN'S life by forcing pregnancy on her when it results from rape or incest.
4) push for legislation that endangers a WOMAN'S life by closing health clinics - that offer FAR FAR more services than merely abortion-related ones.
5) push for legislation that cuts back on the social safety net that SUSTAINS life, such as programs that provide services to the poor, hungry, and homeless (includes LOTS of children, too! Surprise!).
6) fight any attempts to raise the minimum wage or ensure workers' rights or union activities. THAT is what provides a family (often with a single head-of-household) with the basics of life support. Like maybe food for everyone in the family, so Mom isn't forced to skip meals so she can make sure her kids have enough to eat.
7) whine about paying taxes - that fund the programs and services that help sustain life in this country for those who need help and can't handle it themselves.
8) terrorize unaccompanied children trying to find their way across our borders - THEIR lives were in danger where they came from, and if you're supposedly "pro-life," YOU ARE OBLIGATED to care about THEIR welfare, too. Not just the so-called "pre-born," okay?
9) promote wanton access to any damn guns you feel like having, amassing, and waving around in public. If you've got a hard-on for guns, and you're walking around in public shoving your damn guns in our faces and flaunting your assault rifles like Flavor Flav flaunts his jewelry, you are actually a DOMESTIC TERRORIST showing off your KILLING capability. "Stand yer ground" MY ASS.
10) advocate for WAR. WAR WAR WAR!!! USA USA USA!!! Um... do ANY of those dumb-fuck assholes realize that war KILLS???? And kills INNOCENTS? Hey, if you think America actually DOES have enough money for war, then we sure as hell have the money to feed our hungry and clothe our poor and house our homeless and provide them even minimal health care. Don't give me that "we can't afford it" crap when you're ready to go blow up all the non-whites elsewhere in the world whom you don't like.

"Baby killers"??? Wonder how many of THEM qualify for that label, when you consider this list of priorities?

And we need to start spreading THIS truth, and THIS framing, and THIS meme. We need to manage the perception MUCH better, and on OUR terms.

The bad guys have spent 30-40 YEARS working on the public thinking, massaging the message, "teaching" gullible unsuspecting Americans to think of the issues the way the bad guys do, and filter the reasoning the way the bad guys do. While we sat back and just expected that America would somehow see and know what was good and what was bad. (HINT: they DON'T, and they WON'T, especially when they're constantly bombarded - indeed, carpet-bombed - with reinforcement and encouragement from every corner - to think the bad guys' way.) So it's really up to us. Our Democrats are painfully slow to wake up to this. Our comparable liberal talk radio network is non-existent. Our one reliable cable channel still lets way too many bad guys on, and ISN'T 24/7 message-focused like Pox Noise is - THANK YOU cheesy, cheap-ass prison reality-shows clogging all the weekend programming. So there's no balance. Our think-tanks and foundations are really only just getting started, while vermin nests like the American Enterprise Institute, the Cato Institute, the Hoover Institute, the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Prosperity, Freedomworks, and all those other koch brothers-supported set-ups aimed at pushing the CONservative world-view on all of America have been operating and chugging along rather vigorously for 30-40 YEARS ALREADY.

It's up to us. If you want the job done, might as well roll up your sleeves and do it yourself. We kinda have to. Until the still-too-anemic efforts on our side gain a little more muscle and vigor and clout.

It's up to us to lead.

Let's hope so! I'll take a defeat for the GOP in whatever form it might come.

Bad news for them is good news for ALL THE REST OF US.

We need more of this!

UNIONS, too!!!! For the greater good! It's the muscle behind the worker's efforts, and the vocal cords behind the worker's voice.

Activists change public perception; we don't chase it.

Activists change public perception; we don't chase it. Progressives are on the front lines and poised to lead, while Clinton and the ever-shrinking Blue Dog Coalition are tee'd up to fight the last war.

WOW!!! YES. Damn I hope this feeling is contagious - ALL OVER the Left side of the aisle.

Welcome to DU, TubbersUK!

Glad you're here. Powerful indeed. You said it all. Really can't add to that.

Welcome to DU, bettydavis!

Glad you're here! I use your quotes all the time! (Actually, it's the Bette Davis quote about the dead and Joan Crawford - "you should never say bad things about the dead, you should only say good. Joan Crawford is dead. Good." I apply it to ronald reagan quite - um - LIBERALLY!)

Okay, this sounds utterly superficial for the thread topic here, but I would hope somebody in our government would think it worth considering nonetheless.

Has ANYBODY considered how Israel may risk losing the PR war?

YES it's PR. Pretty superficial, alright. But when it comes to building a consensus of world opinion - which is a BIG concern, if I were president, I'd be speaking to Netanyahu about that as well.

This issue has been an issue for decades. I don't know if there even IS a solution. Seems to me, it seems this is an unsolvable problem as it's laid out now. Two different sets of people fighting over one piece of land. They each lay claim to it. They each have reasons and justifications. And nobody's giving an inch. And whichever side pushes hardest and exacts more pain - the other side gains the sympathy and fired-up motivations for revenge. The offensive tactics of one side beget revenge response from the other side, and new hard-liners determined to settle scores.

And it's been that way, in one form or other in that part of the world - for centuries! Millennia! I don't know if there even IS a solution that's satisfactory to both sides. Makes me wonder if we need to start applying some different thinking to the problem.

Do we do what a mom would do (what I myself would advocate, from my mom-dum) - which is basically - "OKAY KIDS. If you can't play nice and share your toys and share your playground - THEN I'M TAKING IT AWAY FROM BOTH OF YOU!!!!!! Then, NOBODY gets it!!!!! How 'bout THAT???" And I realize that in this case - that approach is rather, um, impossible. Although I am tempted to advocate that Jerusalem be taken over and established as a universal city, the capitol not just of some religion or some country but of Planet Earth, and as such, belongs to EVERYBODY AND NOBODY. And I'd move the UN headquarters there as a visible sign of same. And further, I'm absolutely sure that NOBODY would like that and both sides would probably declare a jihad against those among us who'd done that, and all one would really end up with is another gigantic international shitstorm.

I just don't see a way out of this. Unless - do we try to reclaim a certain-size chunk of land from the Mediterranean Sea? So some of those in this conflict can have some land to claim for themselves? Then redraw the boundaries so both sides have sea access and port potential and all that? YES it would be ridiculously costly. But measure that against what costs are already being incurred - in life and treasure, seemingly with no end in sight. How much do each of those bombs cost? How much - a cost of casualties and what that leads to in terms of fired-up militants and jihadists? Any way you look at it, there's gonna be an extravagantly high cost in terms of sheer money. But I find myself wondering about reclaiming land and whether that might be an approach worth taking. If both sides don't get something to win, something of value to take away, you're never gonna solve this, and there's always gonna be strife and always gonna be trouble and always gonna be squabbling and always gonna be war-making and terrorism and violence and destruction and needless death.

Trying to think a way out of this, or around this, or through this, using the same approaches and ideas and negotiations and pleadings that haven't done squat so far - seems like a losing strategy. We're stuck in this mode of being in a deep hole, and the only way we see out is to keep digging. And no matter what kinds of fancy shovels and earth movers and multiple armies of helpers we throw at it, we're still just digging ourselves down deeper. But hey, let's look at this other new kind of shovel. It has a diamond tip! That ought help...

Yes. Skilled unfortunately on behalf of the Dark Arts.

The ONLY person EVER to leave him tongue-tied, flummoxed, knocked to his knees, run-aground and out of ideas before he could even get started? Barack Obama in 2008. I'll never forget what frank luntz said about the rise of Barack Obama: "I don't know how to beat this guy."

Wish we had more instances like this one. That was SWEET-SWEET-SWEET!!!! I would LOVE to see people like frank luntz completely and permanently hobbled, professionally-speaking. One unique brief-and-shining moment isn't NEARLY enough.
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