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[guillaumeb]

This message was self-deleted by its author (guillaumeb) on Thu Oct 5, 2017, 06:47 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[billh58]

1. The old tired argument that CCW

holders are the most "law abiding" citizens on earth is, and always has been, pure rubbish. The fact that they managed to pass a background check, like most other gun purchasers, basically means that they have no outstanding warrants, and are not felons.

The possibility that CCW holders may in fact be wife beaters, alcoholics, anti-social individuals with anger issues, or just outright bullies is never considered when allowing almost anyone to carry a lethal weapon in public. Throwing popcorn at a CCW holder in a theater during an argument, and getting shot and killed for that moment of anger is just one example of the stories included at Concealed Carry Killers.

Regardless of the assurances by NRA/ILA/GOA apologists that CCW holders are above reproach, more guns in more hands, equals more gun violence and deaths. Do the math...

[billh58]

3. To carry that line of thinking one

step further, gun apologists also claim that it is not the gun, but the person holding the gun that is the problem and that we should do more to provide mental health care for potential killers, or suicidal individuals.

When it is suggested that potential gun purchasers be given a mental health or a behavioral evaluation, they scream, "that violates the Second Amendment!" In their twisted way of thinking then, we must afford everyone the "right" to purchase a deadly weapon and wait to see if they have anti-social issues.

This all goes back to their basic fundamentalist premise: a few American deaths and injuries (110,000+ annually) are acceptable in order to "protect" the right to ensure that any American (with few exceptions) who wants a gun can get one, and that basic safety measures for a dangerous product can not be mandated for the public good.

[fr8doggie]

5. Did the math...

How do you square your arguments with this:

# of firearms in USA has increased 62% since 1994. 192 million-320 million

Gun homicide rate has decreased 49% since 1993. 7/100,000-~3.6/100,000


More guns, in more hands does NOT equal more gun violence and deaths

[fleabiscuit]

11. Non sequitur.

Another way of saying that is that gun deaths have declined as less and less households have guns.

[jimmy the one]

14. gigantic bubble of murders ignored

freight doggie: How do you square your arguments with this:
# of firearms in USA has increased 62% since 1994. 192 million-320 million
Gun homicide rate has decreased 49% since 1993. 7/100,000-~3.6/100,000

During the very time period you cite, early 90's to now, the gun ownership RATE has declined by ~35%.
Personal gun ownership rate (person owns a gun) declined from ~33% to 25% now.
Household gun ownership rate (gun in the household) declined from ~45% to 35% now.
As gun ownership rates have declined since early 1990's, so has the national violent crime rate.
Less gun ownership rates during that time period, less violent crime rates. Fact jack.

National gunstock indeed increased from ~225 million in 1992 to over 300 million today. But not enough to create a higher gun ownership rate; the new guns are mainly going to existing gun owners.
How have these salient points gone over your head if you come here & pretend to proffer an educated opinion of this?

fr8doggie More guns, in more hands does NOT equal more gun violence and deaths

Except that's not really the case on a per capita basis for both gun ownership & violent crime, generally.
From Point Blank, by Kleck (gun figures only), tho he could be using higher end estimates:
1963 84 million guns, violent crime rate ~170, murder 4.6
1992 223 million guns, violent crime rate 757, murder 9.3
2012 347 million guns, viol crime rate 380, murder 4.5

How do YOU square that from '63 to '92 national gunstock about tripled while murder rate doubled & violent crime rate quadrupled? More guns more crime... You cherry pick the declining end of it & prance about ignoring that gun ownership rates declined 35%, ignoring the stink in your own backyard.
The murder rate is indeed the same today as it was in the 60's, but the violent crime rate remains doubled, of which murder is only a couple percent. And you ignore the gigantic bubble in murders which lies between 1962 & 2016, taking only the start & end points.

BTW, The top ten states with the highest violent crime rates are generally 8 pro gun states, 1 neutalish state, & 1 gun control state maryland. More guns is indeed correlated with higher violent crime rates, in similar populated & demographically alike states.

?1
The numbers do not account for reduction of the gun stock due to wear and tear, loss, destruction or illegal exportation; or increases of the stock from illegal importation, individual or illegal manufacture, or acquisition from military sources.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/07/dean-weingarten/how-many-guns-are-there-in-america/

[Hoyt]

4. Exactly. Gunners also say those with permits are less likely to have committed a felony. True, BUT

True, BUT not any less than the 92+% of the USA who qualify for a permit, but would never think of carrying a gun in public.

You never hear those who need a gun to walk down the street say that folks like George Zimmerman, Michael Dunn, Loughner, etc., are proof that those with legal access to guns are more likely to use a gun to kill innocent people. Worse, they think Zman is evidence of a Defensive Gun Use.

[Fluothane]

6. The website quoted states 696 incidents in 41 states

There are currently 12.8 million CCW licenses in the United States. Concealedcarrykillers.org reports 696 incidents involving CCW individuals. That is .005% of this population. I am not too concerned about individuals with a CCW. You should not be either. Your car or the car of someone you know is much more likely to take you out.

http://crimeresearch.org/2015/07/new-study-over-12-8-concealed-handgun-permits-last-year-saw-by-far-the-largest-increase-ever-in-the-number-of-permits/

[flamin lib]

13. I did some math on this.

247 million adults in the US. 34% of households have guns. Assuming all adults in those households have gun and there are 32000 gun deaths that's .003% involved in deadly shootings. If Floutane is right, the CCW count is way higher than the general gun owning population.

[billh58]

10. K & R

It seems that you rubbed the NRA/ILA/GOA apologist crowd's raw nerves with the truth. Imagine that.

[billh58]

12. We don’t know what caused the big two decade drop in crime rates.

We do know it wasn’t concealed carry.

Even if criminals were responsive to indirect deterrence from concealed carry permit holders (which the evidence shows they aren’t), the areas with the most per capita permits are already low crime areas. This is clearly seen in the Illinois concealed carry data we previously analyzed, which showed permits are concentrated in white, rural areas with low levels of crime. If there are few criminals in an area to deter, indirect deterrence cannot be significantly reducing overall crime rates.

- Snip -

So if concealed carry cannot be responsible for the significant, two decade drop in crime rates, what is? A report from the Brennan Center for Justice published earlier this year sought to tackle that question. Analyzing 40 years of data from all 50 states, the report examined a number of potential causal factors, including RTC laws, and found that the most likely causes were various demographic and socioeconomic factors, the end of the crack cocaine epidemic, and superior policing techniques. However, even these factors were insufficient to explain the entire crime decrease, and the authors concluded that we still don’t fully know why crime dropped precipitously.

But what we do know is that rigorous studies on RTC laws and permit holders, combined with empirical data on defensive gun use and studies of people’s perception of gun prevalence, provide powerful evidence that concealed carry does not reduce crime.

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/lower-crime-rates-not-caused-by-concealed-carry/

Wow...really? You mean that the aging, white, married demographic buying more guns is not responsible for the decrease in gun homicides?

According to the “More Guns, Less Crime” hypothesis, states with higher levels of gun ownership would expect to see lower crime rates in those categories. By contrast, the study found that states with the lowest rates of firearm ownership (Connecticut, Hawaii, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, California, Florida, Illinois, and Maryland) had significantly lower rates of firearm-related assault and robbery, firearm homicide, and overall homicide.

States with the highest gun-ownership levels (Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota, Arkansas, Arizona, West Virginia, North Dakota, Idaho, Mississippi, and Alabama), meanwhile, had 6.8 times the rate of firearm assaults, 2.8 times the rate of firearm homicides, and twice the rate of overall homicides than states with the lowest gun-ownership levels.

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/new-study-is-latest-to-find-that-higher-rates-of-gun-ownership-lead-to-higher-rates-of-violent-crime/

NRA talking points evaporate when a little sun shines on them, and in reality more guns equals more gun violence.