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Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:47 AM

 

new here thought I would say hi.

As my handle implies, I am a progressive gun owner. I'm also a father, but I figured that Prog_gun_toting_dad would be too long, and my handle is getting me enough attention as it is. I kinda wish I had picked something less alarming like, I don't know, John_2273.

by now I know that a million people have alarm bells going off about my kid possibly getting a hold of my gun. This is a valid concern for you to have.

It wasn't long ago that a child died when a cop some how managed to leave his loaded gun on the table only to be picked up by his 4 year old child. I think the fact that the child died is tragic, but what really boils me is that the cop got off Scott free. No charges. They could have charged him with any thing from child endangerment to manslaughter, but nothing. not even a slap on the wrist. I just simply don't understand how any one could put their gun down where their kid could get hold of it.

Even if I didn't have any kids and lived alone, I still wouldn't leave a loaded gun laying around. The truth is that guns were designed to kill and who or what it kills is my responsibility no matter who or what pulls the trigger. It's on my hip, or it's locked up.

I acknowledge that this is not 100%, and the only 100% way to insure this gun is not used on me or my family would be to destroy the weapon. Problem is the lack of a gun will not prevent some one else from bringing their own gun on to my property.

Yes, I know, Lets say a crook breaks in. Will I really have time to get my gun out of its locked container? Well you know, you're right. I might get shot in the 5 seconds it takes me to swipe my finger print and load my weapon, and in that event, the crook would be able to use my dead finger to access my weapon. Yes I worry, but the best I can do is pray that I have that 5 seconds.

Yes, I know, What are the chances of me effectively using my weapon after having been so recently asleep? I'm not sure, but I suspect better then if I had no gun.

Could I be out gunned? sure. My chances of being out gunned are a lot higher if I have no gun.

Lastly, could my child get hold of my gun with out my knowledge? I believe not. I am a responsible gun owner and a responsible parent. I mention a bio-metric gun case. the case does have a key in case the battery goes dead. I keep the key locked up in another lock box that my child has no access to. Could my child learn to pick the lock? Yes, and when old enough to do that I will swap out the lock with one that is much harder to pick.

I don't really know if the RTBA should include assault weapons. I don't get why the people that argue that it should are not demanding Nukes for them to keep in the garage being that they are "arms" and such. I don't think banning them is the answer either. The crooks will get them any way, or mod existing weapons to full auto. Not hard to do some times with something as simple as a nail file.

Stating this fact got a post hidden, so that is how I know that DU is really edgy about guns.

Any way, It's nice to meet all of you.

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Arrow 18 replies Author Time Post
Reply new here thought I would say hi. (Original post)
Prog_gun_owner Feb 2013 OP
Pholus Feb 2013 #1
Prog_gun_owner Feb 2013 #3
Pholus Feb 2013 #6
Prog_gun_owner Feb 2013 #11
Recursion Feb 2013 #2
Prog_gun_owner Feb 2013 #4
sofiawotson Feb 2013 #5
DougRees Feb 2013 #7
Ptah Feb 2013 #8
DougRees Feb 2013 #9
CaliforniaPeggy Feb 2013 #10
DougRees Mar 2013 #12
In_The_Wind Mar 2013 #13
IrishAyes Mar 2013 #14
Prog_gun_owner Mar 2013 #15
IrishAyes Mar 2013 #16
nicholas.kusnir Mar 2013 #17
Ptah Mar 2013 #18

Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:11 AM

1. Well let's hear your opinion on a couple things then...

Last edited Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:45 AM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, guess I'm one of those edgy types. Grew up with overly enthusiastically gun-loving brothers who loved to threaten their commie pinko liberal little brother with their toys. Endless lectures about how those guns were going to set the country straight again by putting people like me up against the wall when the time came. I was 20 years younger than them -- still a child so I couldn't just walk away, but being a captive audience to their fantasies opened my eyes to what kinds of darker bullshit actually can actually sit behind second amendment "government tyranny" types -- many of the darker fantasies set them up as the bosses in the new order they create. But because they are Americans somehow they see themselves as quite different than armed thugs you see in failed states across the world and certainly better than *those* people in the cities.

But you sound kind of reasonable, so I will ask you a few questions about what you wrote in the hopes you can clarify a few things.

1) Is any law really made worthless by the fact that someone, somewhere will break it?

2) What fraction of gun owners do you think you speak for (and by that I mean uber-responsible, biometric locks and control at all times)?

3) If you were to advocate that all gun owners follow your rules, do you think you would get an enthusiastic response from them?

4) Do you know that absolutely, under no circumstances, would you ever lose control while in possession of your weapon on your hip?

5) Following up on number 4, do you believe that if you realized that you'd lost your emotional stability you would do the proper thing and turn yourself in for professional help and entrust your gun to a responsible party without prompting or coercion or the intervention of law enforcement?

6) Following up on number 5, what fraction of gun owners do you think would do the same if faced with the same situation?

7) Following up on number 5 again, what if more than one person around you told you that you seemed need professional help and that your judgement was impaired but deep down in your core you absolutely knew that they were wrong. Would you (even if you felt it WAS NOT proper) turn yourself in for professional help and entrust your gun to a responsible party without prompting or coercion or the intervention of law enforcement?

8) Following up on number 7, what fraction of gun owners do you think would do the same if faced with that situation.

THanks for your answers in advance. You sound reasonable, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say!

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Response to Pholus (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:26 AM

3. Nice to meet you.

 

Answers:

1. Some laws are worthless. Texas Sodomy laws for instance. Consenting adults in their own bedroom. Now there is a worthless law. But I suspect you mean Gun laws. My point is more that I understand that you could make all guns illegal, and criminals would still get Uzis (compact sub machine guns). I think that we may not need new law, but that we should at least try to close the loop holes in our current gun law. I'm just not in favor of knee jerk reactions.

2. Well I would guess that about 40% of gun owners are as you describe uber-responsible, but I hope that number is much higher. I am a thoughtful human being who carefully considered the need of a weapon, as well as all the responsibility that comes along with it. I hope and pray that my fellow human beings who may have need of a weapon go through the same mental process and accept the responsibility before hand.

3. Are they my rules? Pretty sure its law to keep guns away from your kids. I guess there is a moral aspect to my view too in regards to the fact that I feel responsible for what ever my gun kills weather or not I pulled the trigger. I would not impose that on any one, but in my heart I would know I was responsible. In regards to not leaving your gun laying around, that's just common sense. You go to bed with your gun on the coffee table in the living room and a crook breaks in..... Darwin Award.

4. Yes. I know this will be different for every one. In my mind, the Weapon is for one thing only. Defense of my life, or the life of my family. I would also use it hunt for meat and fur if I needed to feed and cloth myself and my family. I feel that guns should have no other uses. If you get in to an argument, and you make the mistake of even brandishing, you are probably going to jail, and will most likely have your weapon confiscated. If you make the mistake of Brandishing in an argument with some one who also has a gun, they can legally shoot you and claim self defense. If some one brandished at me wile I was armed, depending on the situation, my first choice might be to back away slowly in the direction of the nearest cover wile trying to calmly talk to the person. Of course there are situations where that would not work at all and it would be a split second decision as to what action to take. In a situation where a fire fight was eminent, I think it would be best to seek cover before drawing my weapon if possible for two reasons. 1: My assailant all ready has his gun drawn. 2: My assailant does not yet know that I am armed. This is how I know I would maintain control. To give up the element of surprise could be a life ending mistake.

5. Short answer is yes. If by "lose your emotional stability" you mean become a danger to myself or others, then yes. If you mean feeling depressed because my wife left me, or my dog died, etc. then I would probably just keep it locked up. if I entered a deep depression and started to feel suicidal, or homicidal then I would call 911 give them my gun and ask to be taken to a psych ward.

6. Sadly very few, but that is not their fault. I have witnessed mental illness. I know what it looks like on multiple levels, and I would recognize the symptoms in myself if I should fall. Few have this understanding, and mental illness such as depression isn't even recognized as a real illness by a majority of the population who have never had friends or family members struggle with it.

7. Yes again. Because I know that a person with a psychotic disorder truly believes that there is nothing wrong with them, and that every one else is "stupid/crazy/blind,etc." because they don't know what the ill person know. Perhaps we should make gun owners take a Psych course...

8. I would guess <5%. It's not just about gun owners. We are now discussing mental illness. God can't we see it? yes the mass killings are horrible. did the gun cause it?? May have made it easier to kill more people, but cause it??? No. A gun does not go off by itself. may be what we need is not more gun laws, but to enforce the ones we currently have. At the same time, and even more importantly, we need to educate our populous about Mental illness especially Psychotic Disorders like Schizophrenia.

Thanks for the thought provoking questions.

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 09:23 AM

6. Thanks for the thoughtful answers.

I do have some quibbles however.

1) Yes, there are laws that would not seem to serve much use. Guns are currently a matter for debate precisely because there are some people who see them as a risk and some people who do not. On the other hand, "criminals will not pay attention to the law" is a rather weak argument given that it is in part the violation of the law that defines a criminal. I grew up around guns too and I guess I just listened to that "respect the gun" part too much because I am appalled by these people parading around in everyday life with an AR strapped to their back just because "it's legal." I don't think the rest of the population should be forced to do risk calculations when shopping about whether the yahoo with the weapon is a threat or not. Actually, it's a risk regardless because the yahoo is either a) about to shoot up the place or b) just a yahoo with little or no common sense that itself forms a safety risk. Either way, I am pissed that I have to factor in that yahoo's presence as I try to navigate my tasks and herd my kids around them without harm.

If we as a people have regressed to the point where any action is appropriate as long as it is not banned by a law then well, it's time for a law. We have speed limits for a safety reason, even though they are routinely broken -- some fraction of us pay for that too even if it isn't all of us. So I don't care if "only criminals will break the law" cause that's basically the point. The mere pretense of the AR in the store should be a red flag in and of itself requiring no further assessment of the situation given that the object has no useful purpose in that context and has the potential to cause mass mayhem.

2-4) Obviously I wanted to make a point and you got that. You sound every bit a legitimate and thoughtful gun owner, though my conclusion does depend on my reading into what you mean by the word "defense" of course. Definitely I am with you on hunting. I would add target shooting to your list. I would certainly agree that you have a right to protect yourself in your home. I would agree that you have a right to carry a weapon in public if you have reasonably demonstrated that you have a risk such as a hazardous job or have had threats to your life -- provided you have been screened, trained and are held to a strict standard of when the weapon can be drawn/shown. I don't believe that you have a right to carry an AR (or even a handgun) in JC Penneys just cause it's Tuesday and you feel like it or even because it's a bad part of town and you're feeling scared. Even the "wild west" made you check your gun at the city limits after a while. Because it comes down to appropriateness.

There is no good reason to have a gun in a school. There is no good reason to have a gun in a hospital. People should be smart enough to know this without a sign having to be posted. If you have a weapon where it is not appropriate, the mere presence of the weapon should be grounds for corrective action by others rather than some anxiety raising situation where one has to study the yahoo to glean intent (where the yahoo will cry and whine if they are unjustly accosted because we should just somehow know they're one of those "good guys with guns.")

This is one place where some European nations with looser possession laws than us (like Norway) for example have gotten it right. You can pretty much have what you want as long as you follow VERY strict rules on how they are placed into the public commons. Responsible gun owners have no problem with these ideas in discussion (and many collectors are excited about the prospects) but I find there are plenty of people who feel their irresponsible behaviors are covered by that "shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd amendment. That they have unrestricted right to carry what they want, where they want and when they want and the rest of the country just has to make accommodations. And therein sources the heat which you feel.

5-8) No, this has always been about mental illness -- the moment I see the yahoo with the gun in the store that's what I HAVE to wonder. Seriously, this goes back to the whole appropriate vs. inappropriate thing. Carrying that weapon in that situation is purely inappropriate and the wielder shows a tenuous grasp of reality if they somehow feel like that weapon is the only thing preventing them from an untimely demise.

And as you agreed judgment is definitely easily impaired. I have stolen more than enough keys from inebriated friends enough to know that people who usually have their shit together can rapidly run off the rails with a few beers. People are very poor judges of their limits and tend to take offense when they are told that they've impaired. It would be nice if we acknowledged this in our gun ownership rules as well...

So, this is closer to what needs to be discussed than any real discussion that will ever occur. Thanks.



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Response to Pholus (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 28, 2013, 07:59 PM

11. AR dude wasn't even holding it right.

 

There are so many things wrong with that person. The only possible explanations I can think of is:

A. he was trying to make a point, in which case he failed, because slung over your back like that with the barrel pointed side ways, almost as if on display is not safe. The Weapon will be pointed at some body when he turns.

OR

B. he is extremely paranoid, in which case he failed, because if some one really were out to get him, they would just snatch the AR off his back and shoot him with his own gun.

OR

C. (Truly the only possible explanation) All of the above with Mental illness. Probably Psychotic Paranoid Delusions. Will probably spout something about Obama taking our guns away.

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 03:00 PM

2. Some friendly advice on successfully being a pro-gun DUer

1. Remember we're in the minority here

2. Remember this is a very emotional issue

3. Remember that the number of people who have had their minds changed by arguments on a forum could fit in a canoe

4. Look for topics besides gun rights to talk about, at least until you get a better feel for the board

5. Try as much as possible to find common ground: most of us on the "gun" side of things here believe in universal background checks, for instance

6. Correcting terminology mistakes, no matter how central they are to the subject at hand, is in general not worth it, as infuriating as that is

7. Don't post gun porn

8. Most importantly: actually be a Progressive Democrat. I can't stress that one enough.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:28 AM

4. Thanks for the tip.

 

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)


Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 02:43 PM

7. I'm Not Enthralled!!!

Thus far, I haven't been able to start threads or send mail. I keep getting the message that I haven't responded to enough threads. OKAY, how many threads do I have to respond to in order to do these things?

To top it off, somebody has put me on their "ignore" list. Wonderful. I have absolutely no idea why it happened. It doesn't seem very "welcoming" to me!

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Response to DougRees (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 03:50 PM

8. After ten replies, you can start a thread.

The red ignore message is a sig line, not an ignore message.

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Response to Ptah (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 04:29 PM

9. Thanks

Thank you for replying.

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Response to DougRees (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 04:47 PM

10. You'll be able to send DU private mail after you have 50 posts.

Welcome to DU!

I hope that your experiences will be happier!

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 12:18 AM

12. Thanks for the Welcome

I was in a bad mood, and having a bad day. So I'll just say "welcome" to everyone here. But you really should consider letting people know about the rules when they sign up.

Actually, I quit being a Democrat about a year ago. When the Democratic leadership in Congress and the White House signed off on the indefinite detention provisions of the "Defense Authorization Act", I switched my party registration to "Green", and voted for Jill Stein in the last election. I voted for Congresswoman Barbara Lee, who voted against the act, but I didn't vote in the Senate race.

I have quite a few regrets about leaving the Democratic Party, which was my political home for 40 years, but I think the party has to have something more to recommend it than being better than the Republicans. Attilla the Hun would be better than the Republicans. (Actually some of the Republicans, like Ron Paul, aren't too bad on some of the issues I care about--although they're scary as Hell on a lot of other things.)

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Response to DougRees (Reply #12)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 08:13 AM

13. Hello DougRees. I do hope your stay improves.

Let us know how we may help you.



In The Wind

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Tue Mar 12, 2013, 05:53 PM

14. Hello

DU's edginess is well founded. However, I feel you should be commended at least for the great care you seem to be taking for safety. You'd get that extra 5 seconds warning if you had a dog - any little yapper will do, so long as you don't leave it where burglars can reach it to make friends when no one's home.

For 16 years I had 2 chows and never worried a second; slept with my windows open, too, even though I'm a cautious single lady. Didn't have to worry about leaving them in the yard when I was gone because I poison-trained them myself, and most people didn't want to reach over the fence to get friendly. At night they slept right next to me.

May I ask, hopefully without raising hackles, why/when/where you carry your gun on your hip? Do you live in the outback as I used to? (Yes, I know they don't allow guns in Australia, and I'm not from there; but I prefer the word over sticks or boonies.) I don't approve of carrying in hardly any situation myself. Yet even in California I could and did w/o any special permission when on horseback cross country because of the snake issue.

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Response to IrishAyes (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 12:49 AM

15. I carry on my hip where legal.

 

At my home or camp site.
Private property with permission from the owner.
Un loaded concealed in transit on hunting excursions.
Loaded open wile hunting. (Both legal with a hunting license)

My point was not about where I carry, but about the level of control of the weapon. That is to say: if it isn't locked up, it is in my direct control, not in a desk drawer, or on a night stand. Never. Not even for a second wile I answer the phone, or take a piss.

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 11:12 AM

16. Thank you

I realize it's not entirely (at all?) my business, just wondering, partly because I try to understand people when I can. Never felt ignorance is my friend, therefore I need to watch out not to get too nosey!

The people who scare the tar out of me - which I realize is their intention - are the ones who strut around in the public square where there's absolutely no place for carrying, concealed or otherwise. The wife of a friend participated in running one such over-compensator out of a Starbucks back east because he wanted to swagger around in there with his substitute for manhood. Those ladies made the news, and it's my understanding the offender has not returned.

But I'd never want to argue for the Australian solution, however. Since I'm so Irish my blood runs green, you can well imagine the number of relatives in law enforcement and the armed services. The Brits didn't get their butts kicked out of the Republic of Ireland by polite request, either. I eat venison, and somebody had to shoot that deer for me even though I'm probably still a crack shot myself. Etc. I just like to know reason and restraint come into play. Even when I carried myself on solo cross country horseback runs, it was only a derringer which I knew couldn't accidentally discharge if I took a bad spill.

The only way I can keep from passing out when I see those idiots packing firearms in the vicinity of the President, however, is to keep repeating the mantra, "I'm sure there must be a dozen Secret Service rifles on that guy... I'm sure there must be (etc.)." Even in an open carry area - of which there are far too many - I don't believe anyone outside the Secret Service should be tolerated with a firearm in anything like target range. We've lost too many good leaders already, and it would practically kill me if anything happened this President.

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Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)


Response to Prog_gun_owner (Original post)

Wed Mar 13, 2013, 10:18 PM

18. OK, bye

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