Jane Fonda: "What do we do about our sons?"

[BainsBane]

http://www.upworthy.com/they-asked-if-she-had-anything-else-she-wanted-to-say-to-the-audience-thats-when-she-took-it-home

Points to how patriarchy is so damaging to boys as they grow into adulthood.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. yes. connected. head and heart.

[Squinch]

2. That is all well and fine, but I still say

that if anything is going to fix this lack that she is talking about, it is going to have to be a change in the way men speak to each other, not a change in the way women mother boys or women talk to men.

Men, our fathers, could not have raised us to throw out the damaging, limiting expectations that our culture had for women, no matter how much they loved us or how much they may have wanted to. Those expectations were culture-wide, yes, but they could not have been eliminated till women stopped requiring them of each other. Till women changed the messages they gave each other. Till women took responsibility for their own lives and said, "this cultural message that my mother gave me is simply not working any more. These other women over here have a more positive, more fulfilling, more liberating message for me, and I am going to live by that one."

I had a very supportive father. But it was women who showed me how to move past the limitations of the traditional expectations for women. My father could cheer me on the path, but he couldn't show me the path.

We can say this needs to happen for men, but nothing WILL happen until men decide it's time to change the damaging messages they give to each other, such as the alpha male syndrome.

Women are not the ones responsible for this change, men are. Mothers cannot make this happen. Only fathers, brothers, and male friends can.

[BainsBane]

3. I think it's both

Last edited Mon Feb 3, 2014, 01:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Yes, men need to rethink how they speak to each other and treat their sons. Yours points are well taken. Women, however, are also capable of raising sexist men. I know a woman who takes no shit from men, yet she waits hand and foot on her 18 yr old son. He screams at her, insults her, swears at her, and she allows it. He has even beat her. I have witnessed him being abusive to his girlfriend as well. She has raised a son who will certainly abuse women. I'm not going to say this is all her doing. He has a father who doesn't live with him and he is exposed to all the messages boys are raised with in our society, but she has played a role. I know she has no awareness of any of this but will go to any length to make excuses for him, including lying. I think she is probably an extreme example, but I expect some other mothers may indulge some of this.

Fonda mentioned a panel the next day. I don't know if they mentioned specific ways to address the problem. It would be interesting to see if that panel is available online.

To get back to your point about men's changing, it seems to me the more they realize how much patriarchal norms hurt themselves, the more they will be willing to embrace change.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. very good point here:

To get back to your point about men's changing, it seems to me the more they realize how much patriarchal norms hurt themselves, the more they will be willing to embrace change.

why should they fix something that (in their eyes) is Not Broken ... ?

Until we (as women) Stood Up and Told Them:

I am Fucking Broken and You Broke Me and It Fucking Hurt and I am removing myself From the Pain That You Inflict on me daily in Emotional, Verbal, Physical Abuse.

and By The Way: You (as a man) must be fucking Broken, too that you would Want to Inflict pain on another sentient being.
What The Fuck Is Wrong With You that you have this desire?

[Squinch]

7. Yes, I agree that a mother can teach a son how to treat women or not to treat them.

And that is an important part of the equation. And that is something I hear spoken of frequently. Some mothers are truly ignorant, but many I know are thinking of this question and working toward that.

But I never hear anyone saying, "Men, you need to change the way you talk to each other, and the way you behave toward each other." I certainly never hear men saying that their own behavior towards each other, the messages they give to each other, need to change.

[BainsBane]

8. Men absolutely need to change how they talk to one another

I agree 100 percent with that. It is also true that far too much responsibility and blame for child rearing and a child's behavior is placed on the mother rather than the father, and that even extends to legal cases where mothers have been prosecuted for a child's drunk driving. In some cases that's because the father isn't around much, but in others it is simply a result of sexism.

[Flatulo]

12. ..."mothers have been prosecuted for a child's drunk driving."

I find this claim remarkable. I googled 'mother charged for child's drunk driving' and 'mother prosecuted for child's drunk driving' and found nothing even resembling this. Just lots and lots of stories of moms being arrested themselves for driving drunk with a child in the car.

It seems massively unconstitutional to charge someone for another persons crime. Can you provide a link to any of these cases? I'd be interested in how this can happen.

[BainsBane]

13. No I do not have time to provide a link

It's under the same theory, I suppose, that bartenders and friends who serve alcohol are charged. I suggest you check a legal database if you're that interested.

I think the mother was charged because the children died in a crash where an ex-husband was drunk. It was several years ago. I think they believed the woman knowingly put the kids in a car with her drunk ex. It is too long ago to remember details, but I would be surprised if there were only one such case.

People are charged as accessories in drunk driving cases all the time. Surely you know that much.

[Flatulo]

14. I can see a parent being charged if they provided, or failed to secure their alcohol, from a minor,

But I took your post to mean that mothers were being charged for not preventing their child from driving drunk, which is quite different. In other words, for being an inattentive parent, essentially. I've never heard of that happening. As a parent whose teen son's friends were always at our house, I took my responsibility to keep them separated from alcohol quite seriously. Zero tolerance. One violation resulted in a permanent ban from our home for one kid who though he was clever.

But once they were outside of my jurisdiction, I had no control over their actions. Thankfully my son has always had an aversion to intoxication. He's 24 now and made it through those difficult teen years just fine.

[BainsBane]

16. Parents have been charged for allowing kids to drink

who then went on to drive drunk. I've read of several such cases. I would think there would have to be some level of awareness of the parents part. In the case I recount above, I recall thinking it unfair that the mother was essentially charged for the actions of the father. She said she didn't know her ex had been drinking. But as I say, it was several years ago, so I don't remember the details or even where It occurred.

I agree I don't think a parent could be charged just because a kid drank away from their supervision. I'm glad to her your son is doing well.

[ismnotwasm]

9. You know it's funny

My Dad has fucked up gender expectations for men AND women. He's almost a cartoon. I'm sure his attitudes helped me find my way to feminism, but he also told me that I could never rely on a man, (because they're weren't any "real" men left) and taught me to do little bits of all kinds of things like framing, sheet rocking, roofing and plumbing. I mean he's well and truly a messed up person, but his characterization of gender roles and then the inconsistency with them made room for me to think my way through a lot of society imposed bullshit.

Of course I'm the only one of his three children to survive mentally. My poor brother isn't confused about gender--exactly--he's doing a fairly good job with his kids-- his young son is in Ballet, his daughter does voice and piano and Ballet, but my brother will never be right in the head. Long story.

My sister bought into his gender bullshit and didn't get that he's not just a sexist, he's a misanthropist. She took all kinds of damage and is still paying for it. Even longer story.

I went through a bunch of self-destructive crap, (which is why I have tons of anecdotal stories)and feminism is one of the things that pulled me out and kept me sane. I found reliable albeit sometimes uncomfortable truth, and in truth, security and a way to happiness

So while I completely agree with you, I think of my son in laws, one has only boys, but I bet if my daughter has a girl this time she'll be more so much more than a "princess". My other one has two girls and he's perfectly comfortable with them speaking as persons, not just as tiny, cute little girls.

We'll get there I think. Maybe even faster than we think

[Squinch]

10. I had a very difficult relationship

with my mother, who had all kinds of mental illnesses, but I have had a similar experience as you did with your father. There are a lot of things that came about in my life as a direct result of the pain of that relationship, and many of them are the things that make me happy today. You can never know if, in the long run, something will turn out to be a good thing or a bad thing in your life, no matter how bad it is.

But I, too, see the path of destruction that those attitudes have cut.

Nothing is simple, but I do think that the next generation is a huge leap better at working through these things.

[CrispyQ]

5. Two minutes. Very worth it!

~kick

[Sheldon Cooper]

6. I wish seabeyond was able to comment on this.

I think it's something that is near and dear to her heart.

[seabeyond]

11. i saw this. i loved this. i feel this. every day of my life, with my two boys.

i know the emotion and heartfelt expression from fonda, when saying this.

it is horrible what we are doing to our boys today, with such a contaminated definition of manhood. we are robbing them of their authenticity. we are setting them up for failure. and it is all of our job, be it mother, father, society or media to do better for our boys.

the illusion of a win, in privilege and entitlement, is a loss for us all. but mostly, it is a loss for our boys because it is the very essence of who they are, they lose.

we women see the light and have the opportunity, to give to our girls. our girls feel it, and can know it. we have educated ourselves, we have identified the culprit. patriarchy. we can address. we can be our authentic self.

and how sad for our boys. that they are not provided and given the same opportunities. my heart hurts

along with janes, for those we love so very very much.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. Perhaps the Tip of the Iceberg

When a boy commits suicide over bullying for watching My Little Pony. The tragedy of forcing boys to live out some pre-defined script is more than just the emotional disconnect. It's really about living a lie. Not showing and eventually not feeling can be a mixed blessing. Because then you don't have to feel the pain of lying about who you are and what really interests/entertains you.