If I Admit That 'Hating Men' Is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy?

[boston bean]

Okay, so maybe you are a man. Maybe you haven't had the easiest ride in life—maybe you grew up in poverty; you've experienced death, neglect, and despair; you hate your job, your car, your body. Maybe somebody (or multiple somebodies) pulverized your heart, or maybe you've never even been loved enough to know what a broken heart feels like. Maybe shit started out unfair and became irreparable and you never deserved any of this. Maybe everything looks fine on paper, but you're just unhappy and you don't know why. These are human problems and other human beings feel for you very deeply. It is hard to be a human. I am so sorry.

However.

Though it is a seductive scapegoat (I understand why it attracts you), none of these terrible, painful problems in your life were caused by the spectre of "misandry." You can rest easy about that, I promise! In fact, the most powerful proponent of misandry in modern internet discourse is you — specifically, your dogged insistence that misandry is a genuine, systemic, oppressive force on par with misogyny. This is specious, it hurts women, and it is hurting you. Most feminists don't hate men, as a group (we hate the system that disproportionately favors men at the expense of women), but — congratulations! — we are starting to hate you. You, the person. Your obsession with misandry has turned misandry into a self-fulfilling prophecy. (I mean, sort of. Hating individual men is not the same as hating all men. But more on that in a minute.) Are you happy now? Is this what you wanted? Feminism is, in essence, a social justice movement—it wants to take the side of the alienated and the marginalized, and that includes alienated and marginalized men. Please stop turning us against you.

It is nearly impossible to address problems facing women—especially problems in which men are even tangentially culpable—without comments sections devolving into cries of "misandry!" from men and replies of "misandry isn't real" from women. Feminists are tired of this endless, fruitless turd-pong: hollow "conversation" built on willful miscommunication, bouncing back and forth, back and forth, until both sides throw up their hands and bolt. Maybe you are tired of this too. We seem to be having some very deep misunderstandings on this point, so let's unpack it. I promise not to yell.

You can read these five parts at the link below..

Part One: Why Feminism Has "Fem" in the Name, or, Why Can't We All Just Be Humanists?

Part Two: Why Claiming that Sexism Isn't Real Is a Sexist Thing to Say

Part Three: Why People Being Shitty to You Is Not the Same as You Being Systematically Disenfranchised

Part Four: A List of "Men's Rights" Issues That Feminism Is Already Working On

Part Five: I'm Sorry That You Are in Pain, But Please Stop Taking It Out on Women

http://jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit-that-hating-men-is-a-thing-will-you-stop-turning-it-into-a-self+fulfilling-prophecy

[chervilant]

1. This should be good...

Thanks for posting this. I've bookmarked it so I can see if any misogynists show up to gnash their teeth and stomp their widdle feets.

(Clearly, I harbor not a little disdain for misogyny. I expect that this disdain will be equated with hating all men, which is absurd.)

[boston bean]

51. Welp... you called it... I really didn't think it would get this much attention. Certainly struck

a chord with some though....

[another_liberal]

2. Men are the worst.

No doubt about that.

[boston bean]

3. That's what you took away from the OP? nt

[another_liberal]

4. I'm just saying . . .

Between men and women, I know which kind of person I prefer to spend my time with.

[boston bean]

5. and that would be?

Listen, I don't know you from a hole in the wall. But your initial post into this group, could be taken in any number of ways.

I'm not sure whether you are being passive aggressive, trying to make this group appear that women who post here think men are the "worst", or what it is you are doing. But your initial post has nothing to do with the article and what it stated.

[another_liberal]

10. "And that would be . . .?"

I resent your tone, let me be frank about that. That being said, I did not seek out your "Group." I was merely responding to a catchy post that appeared on the DU homepage. I generally assume posts there are openly seeking responses and don't even bother to look at what group it may be linked to.

Do have a great day.

[boston bean]

11. Well, up to this point, I was genuinely curious as to what the purpose of your response was.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Have a good one too!

[seabeyond]

12. you fail in communication leaving question to what you aer saying. then you throw a rant when what

exactly you are saying is questioned. no accusation, but question on what exactly you are saying with a cryptic post.

[spooky3]

14. Just as an aside, you should check the group, because the rules for posting differ by group.

[bettyellen]

131. oh, the "tone" complaint coupled with "possibly sarcastic" broadbrushing- why not go for a trifecta?

maybe send your own entry into the oppression olympics?

[NuclearDem]

6. I remember reading part four somewhere before (maybe here actually).

And it's still as incredible as it was the first time I read it. Feminism isn't a women-only movement, and that explains perfectly why.

[BlueToTheBone]

46. In the 60s that was one of the

expressed purposes of the women's movement. Men would be free of the patriarchy when women were. This is a system that doesn't just hurt women, but it hurts men too.

[Locrian]

8. I get the point

But I prefer "gylany"

http://www.partnershipway.org/about-cps/foundational-concepts/the-challenge-of-language/transforming-language

To even speak of "partnership" itself - in a way that recognizes the centrality of the female/male relationship to all forms of social organization - requires the invention of new words. Riane Eisler coined the term "gylany" to describe equal linking between men and women, rather than the hierarchical ranking of patriarchal domination. While "partnership" is used because of its familiarity to most people, it has the disadvantage of having many other meanings (business partnership, for example). "Gylany" is a more precise, but less-familiar term. Perhaps if it is used enough it will enter common usage, but in the meantime "partnership" gets the basic idea across, with less explanation. This is an example of the kind of trade-off that is often necessary in our efforts to change language and consciousness.

[gollygee]

9. Part 3 should be required reading

and it isn't only about feminism. Something making you feel bad isn't the same as being systematically oppressed. Yes!

[NewJeffCT]

16. Agreed

just because some women have treated Bob badly doesn't mean they hate men, they may just feel that Bob is a jerk, or that these women treated Bob badly for other reasons.

[Sheldon Cooper]

13. Any man who whines about misandry is immediately relegated to

my list of people not worthy of interaction.

Using that word demonstrates one or both of two things: 1) a profound ignorance of the definition of systemic oppression (and how that is simply nonexistent vis a vis 'misandry') or, 2) a knowledge that the term is bullshit but choosing to throw it around anyway in an effort to derail the discussion.

I don't have room for either of these two types.

[TekGryphon]

21. I have a fantastic progressive friend going through a custody dispute right now

It is ripping his world apart and causing a shit-ton of stress for not just him, but a lot of his family and friends who know him as a productive, kind, and extremely loving father and have to watch him getting ripped to pieces in a court structure that's rigged against him.

Something about your post really rubbed me the wrong way. It made me think of Tea Party folks, with their "black and white", "us vs them" perspective.

Honestly, seeing your post, I feel like the title of this thread is ironic. Your extreme blanket views practically guarantee you're going to be dismissed as something "lesser". Not "lesser" than a man, but "lesser" than a reasonable person.

[Sheldon Cooper]

24. Your friend's situation is still NOT misandry.

Sorry, it's just not. And I'm fine with being dismissed by anyone who is offended by my opinion.

[TekGryphon]

28. So any systemic inequalities against women is born of misogyny, while..

.. any systemic inequalities against men are just inconvenient points that can safely be ignored because those suffering from them don't matter in your world view.

Got it. I've got a mother-in-law you'd fit in perfectly with. Granted, you'd have to stomach some Glenn Beck parroting, but I'm sure she'd appreciate your "us" vs "them" siege mentality.

[seabeyond]

35. you have a friend, going thru a divorce, and obviously on his side, feeling his pain, with no actual

facts and insist it is a systematic inequality? i do not know that. you probably do not know that. but you state it as a fact and dismiss the whole OP from a personal experience.

what i have seen in texas, is that there is not a gender bias in divorce. period. they do not allow it. they do not participate in it. they have worked hard to rid it from their system. what other states have done, in taking steps to do this, i do not know. i do not have the reliable facts and statistics to give an opinion.

can you be so open and honest in your discussion of the issue?

[Sheldon Cooper]

39. For the last time, there ARE no systemic inequities against men.

It's too bad about your friend, but statistics show that when men DO fight for custody, they win it. Overwhelmingly. So again, no systemic opperssion. You should try to separate your friend's feels with what is actually true on a wider basis. If it helps with the martyr complex to believe otherwise, I cannot help that.

And thanks for the mother in law, but sorry, not interested. YOU spend time with her - you married her daughter, not me.

Now, go ahead and get the last word. I won't waste any more time on this.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

94. "I've got a mother-in-law ... "

"Boy, I tell ya, I can't get no respect."

[seabeyond]

95. let me tell you about MY MIL. ya. nt

[redqueen]

99. ...

[bettyellen]

132. historically rules of divorce were there to perpetute he system men preferred- dumping the kids on

the woman, buying his way out of his responsibility to physically be there support them. Now that it is harder for men to afford to ditch their kids, they don't like it so much. But in many states, women pay alimony and support too these days. Because the law is evolving. But men, historically set up this system- so blame them till you see us women actually making a fair share of the laws, okay?

[seabeyond]

31. you can go into the mens forum, join a thread about how to cheat a wife out of her share of the $

after she has stayed home raising the kids in a joint agreement leaving her with nothing but debt. dance in glee at the lying and manipulation of the courts to screw the woman leaving her in poverty.

do you get yet... how this works?

[BlueToTheBone]

55. I understand why you think this is the same,

because courts in the past have given women priority (they are the child bearers and care givers after all) but that is not so much the case any more. Your friend and his divorcing wife are personal, not this is not systemic oppression of men.

[Warpy]

85. The legal system is still skewed toward women getting custody

especially if the children are very young. While this is a good thing for infants, it's not so good for school age and above.

It's changing but it's very likely changing too slowly for your friend. I do hope he's able to gain shared custody, the best arrangement for the kids.

However, that isn't misandry. It's just that we need to get past that 50s paradigm of the mother being responsible for the kids and house and the dad being responsible for bringing in the money and not much else. I'm delighted to say that paradigm is finally breaking down, especially among Millennials. It's just going to take the courts a bit longer.

However, be very careful about dismissing the article in the OP. When a majority of a disadvantaged group agree about something, the better advantaged group needs to listen and take it very seriously.

Otherwise, you'll be blindsided.

[NewJeffCT]

15. grabbing the popcorn

[seabeyond]

17. why would you do this? it is a serious subject. grabbing your popcorn, waiting for entertainment

is to purposely offend. right? you know it. i know it. everyone in the group knows it. that is the whole purpose of grabbing the popcorn. to let everyone know you dismiss the OP at hand and cant wait to be entertained by what ensues.

why would you come into this group and highlight yourself in this manner?

[boston bean]

18. Sea I don't see anything nefarious with his posting. I think maybe it is being misinterpreted. He

has posted above.....

I initially had the same reaction, due to how often this happens in the group, but I don't think it is the case here.

[seabeyond]

19. i asked. i did not accuse. we understand the meaning of grabbing popcorn.

you can also take the post above, by switching it to a woman, that that is all that is happening with a man. subtle but dismissing the OP. hence, me asking, with the obvious grabbing popcorn to be entertained.

[boston bean]

20. maybe you know something I don't know... ok.

[seabeyond]

22. lol. i do not know either. hence, allowing the poster to clarify. that is the right thing to do,

that so many, so often, do not do on du. i would love for him to clarify his position and prove me wrong. then i can give a simple... thank you for the clarification.

i am open to being wrong. if it is even that i am wrong. more puzzled adn asking. but thanks. BB. we are that good, regardless of people ignoring that fact.

[Sheldon Cooper]

25. I saw it the same way you did, sea.

I've seen people posting about getting HOF all riled up and then sitting back with their popcorn. Maybe the guy is innocent, maybe not. But in a safe haven folks should be more considerate of how their posts may be interpreted.

[yellowcanine]

23. If you really want a fruitful discussion about feminism I am not sure this is the best way to do it.

The assumption seems to be that many men here are in disagreement with the need for a systematic approach to ridding society of oppression of women. I seriously do not think that is true. And the ones that might be true for, whatever the number, are not likely to be swayed with this particular approach. Full disclosure, I am a man and I would actually rather have a woman supervisor than a man supervisor - I have had both and I think that in general women supervisors are better organized and have better listening skills than men. There are exceptions, but as a general rule it is true. FWIW I do have a female primary care physician for the same reason.

[Sheldon Cooper]

26. So, once again: instead of men actually listening to us, and thinking about what we're saying,

we have to be careful and tippy toe around them, and all their feels, lest our message be lost. Just another way to tell women to "keep sweet".

[yellowcanine]

50. "Listening" goes both ways. Does disagreement necessarily mean I did not listen?

Sometimes disagreement is just disagreement. I said nothing about "being careful" or "tippy toeing" or "keeping sweet." When you put words in my mouth who is it that is "not listening?" The most effective way to get people to listen to you is not to slam them up front with negative assumptions about how they might respond. How about starting a discussion about what would be the most productive ways to actually change society - for example, should we begin a new campaign to push for an Equal Rights Amendment or should we push for equal pay legislation? Or both? I personally think the ERA effort should be revisited because it would have the best chance of attracting grass roots support of young people, men and women alike, who might change the dynamic of what happened the last time around. Put hundreds of thousands of young people in the streets demonstrating for an ERA in 50 states and see what could happen in state legislatures. Ain't nothing "careful" or "sweet" or "tippy toeing" about that.

[BainsBane]

157. Who said anything about how you might respond?

Why would you assume this OP has anything to do with you? Unless of course you are one of the people who thinks like that, in which case your objection is moot.

So wait a minute. Are you now telling us what we should care about and what we shouldn't? So we shouldn't post about the myth of misandry and instead stick to ERA because that fits your idea of what is acceptable?

[seabeyond]

29. this post is NOT addressing you. obviously. the problem, is men like you do not live in this world

so you fail to see the very real issue that women face daily. this exact thing. and how it is growing, becoming a prevalent part of our society, feeding off each other. you do not have it in your world because it is not being addressed to you, as a man. you do not have it in your world, because you do not think in this manner. you do not have it in your world because as a man, no one says this to you daily.

our reality lets us know this is a huge problem. such a HUGE problem that it is growing. taking root. that men that are not secure and fluid like you are buying into this and being swayed. validated for their own angsts...

but... since you are so open and this is not the world you live in, see or experience. i am curious. how would be a productive manner for feminists to address, that we have not tried, to reach men like you, where we need support to see the very real problem we as a society are facing?

thanks

[yellowcanine]

43. Ok I do not understand this response - I implied that there IS a need for society to take a

systematic approach to rid society of the oppression of women. And I said that I think most men on THIS site agree with that. I could be wrong about that - I think I acknowledged that at least obliquely when I said, "whatever the number." So how am I not living in the very real world where women are oppressed??? I agree with you about the need and I am not going to change my mind about that just because I disagree with the tone of the OP. You don't have to "try to reach men like me." What I am saying is that the negative approach taken here is not going to do much to change hearts and minds.

It is not about "making nice" as another poster suggested in dismissing my objection to the tone of the OP. It is about having a discussion about what would be the most productive ways to actually change society - for example, should we begin a new campaign to push for an Equal Rights Amendment or should we push for equal pay legislation? Or both? I personally think the ERA effort should be revisited because it would have the best chance of attracting grass roots support of young people, men and women alike, who might change the dynamic of what happened the last time around.

[seabeyond]

45. "I think most men on THIS site agree with that." 6. at this point, not including you because

i do not see your post as such, but at this point we have 6 men that have come in and dismissed the oppression and subject at hand. this is my point. you state you could be wrong, but really, you do not see it on du. we women on du face it continually, constantly, regularly and consistently.

i get that you do not see it

this thread alone, we have 6 men that walked into the discussion to derail, dismiss, mock....

[yellowcanine]

52. and one person who did not, how did you respond....?

You took great issue and accused me of not living in the real world.
1. The real world is not DU and I was referring specifically to DU.
2. How many people respond one way or the other is not a good measure of how most of the group feels on a particular issue. Flame bait will get you flames. I almost did not respond at all because these types of discussions rarely resolve in a reasonable way. But for better or worse, I did. I obviously did not get a positive response, for whatever reason, but maybe some people will see my contribution as constructive in the way I intended it.
3. DU is not where the real battle is, so why turn it into that? Why not have a productive discussion about how to change society? Flame baiting will not get you there.
4. Just because people disagree with a particular tactic does not mean they disagree with the goal or do not "get it." If people who are essentially on the same side of an issue cannot have a reasonable discussion about tactics, how will we ever prevail against the real (maybe better organized) forces on the other side?

[seabeyond]

53. my tone? was not right? i tried. man i tippy toed, i asked questions, i compliment, i embraced you

i took you at your word, i excluded you from the others... i tried fuckin everything.... to communicate and discuss. and still.... in your opinion, i failed. i just was not good enough to get anything but this.

ok

as a woman that has been told by a number of men on du what a man hater i am. i totally understand this piece. you obviously do not feel what the op is saying.

done. i cannot twist myself any more than what i have, to get you to hear me.

sorry.

i tried

not good enough.

even by a long shot

[yellowcanine]

58. I understand this piece. I just disagree with it as a tactic.

Yes there are men who wave the bloody shirt of man hating every time the topic of oppression of women comes up. I just do not think it is particularly useful to call out those men. Why not focus on how we can achieve the needed changes? The Civil Rights Movement is a good model. MLK did not waste time calling out the racists. He marched and demonstrated against segregation. He registered voters. He talked about his dreams. We should do the same with feminism. Reviving the ERA would be a good place to start, with marches, demonstrations, boycotts, registering voters, etc., whatever it takes.

[seabeyond]

60. because. the hate. is growing. leaps. and. bounds.

[BainsBane]

161. then start your own OP about the ERA

rather than telling us what we are supposed to focus on. Do you have any concept of how dismissive that is? YOU do not get to control our minds and our speech. This OP is not a "tactic." It's a discussion. You don't need to participate at all. You clearly don't understand any of the groups or issues involved, and you have made a point of not trying to figure that out and instead feel fit to tell women what YOU think they should focus on. Guess what? It's not up to you.

[BainsBane]

160. What are you not concerned with the negative approach the rest of DU

takes toward right wingers? Why do we have to be sweet to the RW men's groups?

You seem to think you as a man should be able to decide what rights women think they should concern themselves with. This is the second time you've told us what we should focus on. You do not get to control our concerns or thoughts. Your determination to do so is offensive.

So you want to make nice with the far right women haters, by all means, do so. I myself choose not to deal with them. If you consider yourself as having something in common with what is described in this OP, that truly is unfortunate, but that is the problem of no one here.

Perhaps if you'd bothered to look at the actual article and website you might have a sense of the context. Instead, you have decided to lecture women on how and what we should speak about.

[xulamaude]

32. "I am a man"

Really? Wow.

Because men never tell women they're doing feminism wrong...

[yellowcanine]

44. Tell women? I responded to one OP. How is that "telling women."?

Am I not allowed to suggest a different approach to one woman because I am a man?

[seabeyond]

47. you ask. that is good. so i will answer. women consistently, continually hear we would be more

effective if we changed our tone, said it a different way, became more "feminine" in discussion, more flies with honey than vinegar. in so many ways men tell women they would be better able to hear what we said if we just changed something about our message. not that we have not tried all ways ot penetrate the mans well entranced thinking process. not that we do not lower our voice, use few words, blunt and straight forward, to be heard.

we have made ourselves into pretzels to try to find that magical tone, word, body language that would allow a man to hear.

yet.... all we do hear from men is if we would just change something... then maybe we would be more effective.

hence me asking you.... how we should approach conversation to be heard.

i asked above. yet still, it felt you were defensive. i complimented you, and yet felt you were defensive. i thanked you, and yet you felt defensive.

so it leads women to say.... does it really matter how we say something, what tone we use/ that we just wont be dismissed, conversation derailed.

[xulamaude]

48. Sure, you're allowed to do almost anything you want

even making yourself look... blindly entitled? by telling women (or A woman) they're doing feminism wrong.

[seabeyond]

49. btw... you will take note how this whole issue is talking about this issue with you, and not

actually what is in the OP. that is what we consider derailing. because we talk about other stuff, rather the the point of the OP

[geek tragedy]

54. with respect, the sad truth is that you are more the exception, not the rule

Great swaths of society, including liberals, have concluded that feminism is obsolete and that it's not relevant to the world they live in. They honestly believe this whole patriarchy thing is dead, or that it never existed, and that women have achieved full equality with men.

And then there are men who just plain got issues with women. Politics can overcome psychology to a very minimal degree.

[yellowcanine]

63. Then we go back to the basics and change their minds.

The examples of Mandela and MLk are good places to start. Mandela spent 27 years in prison. MLK was jailed and eventually assassinated, as were Malcolm X , Medger Evers. Men, women and children had fire hoses and dogs turned on them in Birmingham and four little girls died from a bomb attending Sunday School. Don't whine about being misunderstood. March, Demonstrate, register voters, run candidates, boycott, etc.

[seabeyond]

66. well fuck. k. basics. you dismissed everything i said and became accusatory and defensive. a man

speaks in this thread, for us women, and you respectfully replied.

basics. this would be a look at the very basics. i am all for starting at the basics. this is it.

[geek tragedy]

67. this is a discussion board, what are they supposed to do then, just STFU? nt

[BainsBane]

180. Yes, that is exactly what we are suppose to do

STFU about subjects he does not personally approve of first.

[redqueen]

173. Do you even fucking hear yourself?

You think women don't march? That women don't demonstrate? Do you follow the news AT ALL?



?1263591066



Or maybe you just don't fucking care all that much. You apparently feel like you don't actually need to know what the hell your'e talking about before shooting your mouth off about what women should do.

This OP isn't "whining".

This OP is an attempt to get men to stop treating women as if we are children, which you are doing a fucking awesome job of demonstrating with your posts. I don't care what you think about supervisors or why you chose your doctor, that doesn't absolve you of the need for you to check your fucking privilege.

Coming in here and telling women how to advocate for our rights...

How fucking dare you.

But I guess you're FAR from alone in that respect. There's NO shortage of men in the 'now you wimminz listen to me, and you might get somewhere' camp.

[BainsBane]

179. Don't question his privilege

We may talk about ONLY the things he thinks acceptable. Our rights are not ours to fight for. We must seek male approval, and that means never challenging patriarchy or the entitlement that prompts some men to insist on making women keep quiet about subjects that they don't think we should talk about. I won't even say that they don't want to hear about because no one forces them to hear it. They deliberately come in here to tell us how illegitimate our concerns are. It's not enough they don't hear it. We must not speak or even think it.

But he's our ally, Redqueen. Aren't we lucky.



If that's an ally, shoot me in the head right now because there is no hope for the human race.

[redqueen]

182. This facile understanding of what feminism is about has been fostered by many well-meaning women.

What I blame is crap like: 'If you say x (that women are equal, that women are human, that women deserve equal rights, whatever) you're a feminist'.

Cause no. No, it doesn't. It is really really not that simple.

All that does is make you a decent human being.

Being a feminist takes a whole hell of a lot more work.

[BainsBane]

183. I would have no problem with their saying that

If it weren't followed by: You need to do this to be a real feminist. Do what I say and shut up. That's the part that pisses me off. I rather they just said nothing, or at least be honest about the fact they have no intention of considering women as equal persons with rights to make our own decisions about what we care about.

[seabeyond]

184. exactly redq. i say, that is the easy stuff. womens right. feminism is the hard stuff.

digging to the core of the imbalance and addressing that.

the rights is just the obvious in your face inequality. it is the core, that allows the surface. and unless the core is addressed, the surface will never be instilled.

[BainsBane]

178. Yet here you are

Whining about being misunderstood. Add to that thinking what we have a right to talk about is up to you, even though you haven't bothered to read the article or figure out what it's about.

Now, go tell the African American group not to whine about the White Supremacists or the LGBT group not to whine about the homophobes. You wouldn't want to hold women to a different standard, now would you? Yet somehow a feminists responsibility is to coddle the ego of every man who wanders into this group, even when he can't bother to read the article and insists on making the discussion all about him. Sure, you're a supporter of feminism as long as it doesn't challenge your entitlement or inconvenience you in anyway, as long as women follow your orders and keep their mouths shut about subjects you don't want to hear about.

You choose to come in this SAVE HAVEN group. No one forced you to read this article. Yet you somehow have the nerve to tell us our concerns aren't legitimate because they aren't what you dictate. Guess what? It's none of your business. I nor anyone else in this group needs your permission to do one thing in our lives. Is that clear enough for you?

[redqueen]

172. Did you read the piece at the link?

Just curious.

[geckosfeet]

27. Poor poor me.

[seabeyond]

30. i hear ya. it is silly and immature for men to immerse themselves in this mentality.

[geckosfeet]

33. a lot if this stuff is just over my head. if i am hated by virtue being born

with a certain type of body then so be it. No skin off my hind quarters. But i do find the discussion entertaining.

I love the smell of hate in the morning.... it smells like ..... victory. You know, someday this war is going to end...

[seabeyond]

36. so... you did walk in merely to disrupt in your cryptic post. bat signal go out? i see RC here

also.

ya. it is over your head. it is over your head because you dismiss it and do not take it seriously. then, a very real issue women face and society as a whole is dismissed by you. then you act all self righteous as if you were productive at all in this discussion. other than derailing

gonna go address the next man that stepped into this to merely derail, with no thought, consideration or insight.

[geckosfeet]

167. I do take it seriously. Equality for women is a serious issue.

This "misandry" business however, is strange stuff and I am not sure I get it at all.

It is one thing to hate oppression - it is quite another to hate "men". I do not deny that there is misogyny in the world, but equally so I have to accept that misandry is just as real.

In regards to not taking things seriously. Thanks for not considering my pov.

The whole point of the Robert Duvall quote was to illustrate the hope that the inequality/discord/misongyny/misandry will end. In fact that was what that line from a famous movie was meant to convey. That through the chaos, quirky personalities, hate and outright insanity that normalcy will eventually prevail in spite of the calamity.

But you know, let the hate roll on for now. I do feel that there is entertainment value in it for some folks. So pardon me while I enjoy the spectacle.

[BainsBane]

169. No one here hates men

That is a function of your paranoia and the fact you can't even bother to read the fucking article. Obviously you don't care enough about equality to read the article, figure out what it's about, or treat women in this group as human beings. Not considering your POV? You've done nothing but be rude and insulting here. If you see yourself reflected in this OP, that is rather a serious issue for you to resolve, but it has nothing to do with any of us. Again, I repeat, this piece is about MRA adherents, not men in general.

Now the fact is I may not like you much, but it has nothing to do with your being male. It has to do with your worship of guns and that you are so incredibly disrespectful that you have the nerve to come in here and expect everyone to care about your POV when you can't even bother to figure out what this discussion is about. You pretend it has to do with being male. That is far from an excuse. There are a lot of men on this planet far more respectful and thoughtful who actually read rather than throwing temper tantrums.

Now i'm waiting for you to gon tell the African American group how unreasonable they are for not embracing White Supremacists and the LGBT group for not loving homophobes. Or is it just women who are some how responsible for loving extremist groups that despise us and treat us as less than human? When you hold women to a standard different from anyone else on this board, that draws into question this supposed belief in equality. My responsibility in life is not to prop up the egos of people too lazy to read articles or without enough insight or consideration to figure out what the discussion is about. MRAs are not "all men," anymore than the KKK is all white people or the NRA is all Americans. When you think mocking what we care about is "entertainment value," that shows something far different from a commitment to equal rights for women.

[Sheldon Cooper]

170. Damn BB, you are on FIRE this morning!

[BainsBane]

171. He may have me on ignore from the gun battles

He's not answering me. Or maybe he just prefers to sling mud rather than engage with the subject matter.

Thanks.

[redqueen]

175. Why should they bother to read the article? They know everything already!

[seabeyond]

176. my posts to you = hate? really? calling you out for purposely being disruptive and disrespectful

to this group = hate to you? cause that is all i did. you walk in and mouth off. no... no, there was no POV of yours for me to consider. you walk in and mouth off, with little substance in your post, and me calling it out is hate.

brilliant.

[geek tragedy]

71. yo, no one is hating you for having a pee pee instead of a hoo hoo.

the antagonistic, dismissive, and condescending tone you're taking, on the other hand, is not winning you any friends

[geckosfeet]

83. Hind quarters fully operational and intact.

[bettyellen]

133. good way to illustrate why some individuals are dismissed as fools and losers, thank you.

[geckosfeet]

135. good way to show the hate - keep up the good work

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)

[bettyellen]

136. that was just a slight bit of pity. don't flatter yourself.

[geckosfeet]

165. Ha. I wouldn't think of it.

Keep up the positive hate.

[BainsBane]

166. Why are you so determined to defend the far right?

Are you going to tell the folks talking about the Ducky dynasty guy and Eric Cantor to "keep up the positive" hate? How dare we make fun of bigots.

If you happen to identify with the guys Jezebel makes fun of, you should ask yourself why.

[redqueen]

174. Thanks to you as well for demonstrating the need for articles such as the OP.

Well done.

[BainsBane]

158. The gungeon must be slow

You all came looking for new targets.

[BainsBane]

168. It's over your head by virtue of not bothering to read the article

And not bothering to figure out it's about MRA misogynists. Now go run tell the LGBT group how full of hatred they are for not embracing the bigots who deny their human rights.

[BainsBane]

181. Poor, poor you.

[RC]

34. There needs to be a part six

Part six: I'm Sorry That You Are in Pain, But Please Stop Taking It Out on Men

Explaining why some women are their own worst enemy, when it comes to relationships.

Most of us men are NOT the problem, until you make it self-fulfilling. Stop painting the men you come across with a broad brush. We are as individual as women are. If all, or most of the men in your life treat you badly, for whatever reason, you should go look in the mirror for that reason. Either you are looking in the wrong places for men friends/relationships, or... You are the problem and they are just reacting to the way YOU are treating them.

I know what I am talking about here. I was in a relationship once (Just once) where i thought everything was just fine for several years. And every this was good. Then the mind games started. I had trouble accepting, as in, wrapping my mind around, what she was doing. There was a 3 minute Dating party, that fell through for her, only because 2 men she had invited, failed to show up. The party itself went fine. A couple of other times we went shopping for whatever. The real reason being, so she could scope out a salesman she was interested in. Or the weekend I went to visit my Dad, who lived 200 miles away. She ask me to pickup some brand of coffee they did not sell in Fargo. She chose this weekend to entertain her new boyfriend. I found out when I got back. Then there was all the piddly stuff in between, I have since forgotten.
This was the only women I needed counseling to uncouple from. I had trouble believing anyone could treat anyone else with this level of disrespect, when I had done nothing to deserve it.
Why was she like this? Because she had been in an emotionally and physically abusive, 20 year marriage and she absolutely refused to get help, counseling. I even offered to pay for it. No dice. And I am sure that my first name and he ex's first name being the same, didn't help any.
I paid the price, as did several other men she dated. She could only hold it together for so long, till the pressure built up. What made it worse was she could not let go of me because I treated her with respect. I specifically ask her once and she told me there were 3 or 4 men that treated her well, as I did. I don't emotionally abuse people. That is not my nature.
She would call me many months or even a year later, wanting to see me again. She was a good talker. This one relationship has made me sensitive to the danger signs. (There is a group here on DU loudly posting with those danger signs.) My advantage is, I see people as individuals. Women are people. Men are people. All people are individuals.

Now back to the modified excerpt: When one person with unresolved issues gets into a relationship, they spread their damage, their baggage, to the other person. It takes a toll on the other person. Now we have two people with problems. All too often, after the breakup, they think they are now OK because the relationship is over. Or 5 years has passed, or whatever. No so. The damage stays with both of them, because they are in denial of even having a problem. It is always the other person/people that has the problem. The baggage builds. Now we have two people in denial spreading their dysfunctions on to others. And back and forth it goes between the genders, as each gets into another relationship. Each always blaming the other gender, the other person, as being the problem. The broad brush --

There is help out there. More people should take advantage of it.


(Just to be clear, this post is not directed at Boston Bean.)

[seabeyond]

37. as usual i stopped reading with your offensive first sentence. you do not belong in this group. your

post should be hid. go away

[RC]

40. This OP was on the Home page.

I did not notice the group it came from. The best way to keep the rest of DU from responding to posts in your group, is not to rec'd OP's

BTY, maybe you should read the rest of my post. You might learn something. But then again, you probably would not like it, as your mind is already made up.

[seabeyond]

42. i do not care where the Op was. you are adult enough, and capable enough to simply look

firstly

i have read enough of your posts that not one..... not ONE, is supportive of women and feminism as a whole. you actively work at dismissing feminism. to come into a feminist group and work toward dismantling, belittling, dismissing feminist issues is a no no in this group

that simple

and no.... i stopped listening to you. you have NEVER returned the consideration of actually listening to a single damn thing women say. why would i afford you that consideration?

[BainsBane]

145. What will we learn?

What pisses you off? How does that have the slightest relevance to our lives? What makes you think we are waiting around looking to snag a guy like you?



I cannot begin to imagine thinking my personal issues with an ex were of such monumental importance they were supposed to inform all of the opposite sex of how they should behave.

There are some basic rules for posting on DU that even you should be able to figure out. Groups are not forums. Many are safe havens. If you don't believe in the SOP of a group, you have no business posting there. Carnivores don't post in the vegan group, and you dont' post here. Got it?

[seabeyond]

38. boston... as a member of this group, and probably the first time ever, i ask you consider banning

this poster from the group.... please.

[geek tragedy]

56. oy

This one relationship has made me sensitive to the danger signs. (There is a group here on DU loudly posting with those danger signs.) My advantage is, I see people as individuals. Women are people. Men are people. All people are individuals.

Except when you smear an entire group of DUers as psychologically damaged to the point of showing 'danger signs.'



You get bonus points for posting that insult in the forum where those women post, and then acting as if they're being idiots for not lapping up your insults with gratitude.

[seabeyond]

61. thank you geek. he is very consistent with these insults to us, while pretending not. nt

[xulamaude]

89. Nice catch! And commentary!

Let me guess: the "danger signs" have something to do with women using the word, NO.

[chervilant]

65. There is help out there.

And, you would be well advised to seek it.

[RC]

68. I did.

Didn't you read my post?
Both one on one and group. That is why I understand. And you?

[chervilant]

75. I didn't mean

with regards to your 'relationship issues.' I meant with regards to understanding the linked article, and feminism in general.

Good luck.

(And, yes, I read your entire post. You have my sympathy.)

[RC]

84. Feminism in general, yes.

Equal Rights for everyone. That means equal pay, equal responsibility, proper health care and equal everything else that matters. I can see no excuse for not having actual equality for everyone, no matter your gender, gender preference, skin color, ancestry, or anything else.

Do I mean some women's definition of what Feminism is? Not necessarily. Some of what is billed as Feminism is counter productive. For instance, the 'In Your Face' type Feminist, when their target is someone, usually a man and because he is a man, even though he understands, agrees and is trying to help, the man is attacked as an enemy to the cause anyway, no matter what he is saying, or trying to do to help. They seem to be looking for that word or a phrase, they can take exception to and they usually don't read or listen any farther... They have found their excuse to unload.

[xulamaude]

86. "In Your Face" type feminist, huh?

Those who target and attack the men who understand and agree and are trying to help the feminist cause.

The problem here, I think, is that you are the one 'defining' the feminist cause and laying down words or phrases that have been being used against us for a really long time.

We have a right to counter things like that and not have men telling us we're 'doing feminism wrong'.

[seabeyond]

87. yes. he defines feminism and the ones that do not follow his definition have emotional damage.

there is no such thing as a sexist slur, for example. any slur to women is a matter of freedom of speech. and the feminists that dare to call it out are the ..... bad feminists.

[geek tragedy]

91. Yeah, feminists should be deferential to men. They seem to have not gotten that memo. nt

[BainsBane]

149. "what some woman's definition of feminism is"

Of course, why should you care about what rights women think are important. You just old us how we are supposed to behave. You don't like the "in your face' feminists. You like the ones that stay in their place.

No one is targeting you because you are a man. In fact, no one gave a moment's thought about your existence until you decided to enter this group and tell us not to broadbrush far right wing MRA adherents, while using the example of your ex girlfriends as evidence to condemn all women. HOF doesn't exist to resolve your relationship issues. Nor does it exist for you to tell women to keep their mouths shut. All you need do next time is READ before you write and stay out of groups whose SOP you clearly despise.

[Squinch]

101. "Didn't you read my post?"

After the first sentence, and then a skim that showed that you have decided to psychoanalytically judge a bunch of strangers on the basis of one ex girlfriend?

Um. No.

[RC]

105. Maybe you should do more than skim my post.

Those are lessons learned over the years. I have an interest in Psychology, starting in high school. I've read books, articles. Attended meetings, that included both men and women. Even facilitating such meetings. People trying to handle the hurt of bad relationships, to heal and find out what went wrong, so it doesn't happen again. So it is not just one ex girl friend. Far from it.
Heaping anger, derision, denigration, put downs on others, begets anger, derision, denigration and put downs in return and does nothing to remedy the root problem of the person spreading such. In fact, makes the problems worse by spreading the hate and discontent to others they encounter.
So they get it back what they spread, in return, which bolster their conviction that they are indeed being oppressed, dumped on. Karma - How we treat others, comes back to us many-fold.

Also, if the members of HoF have a problem with the general population intruding into their Group, then may I suggest, not REC'd the OP, so it shows up on the home page. But, alas, the would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it? Why be oppressed, if one can't advertise it and use it as a club on others?

[seabeyond]

106. yet... you have to continually, always, consistently throw in your jabs toward hof. and why oh why,

do the women in hof have an issue with you. lets see. break this down.

i too have been massively interested in psychology and behavorial psychology reading tone and a lifetime interest. so. you throw your jabs as you discuss karma. and what we put out, we receive. that it is a back and forth and spread.

then why do you consistently, always, continually throw your jabs at hof?

isnt that saying to hof.... here i am, beat me up. i understand i threw the first jab....

but no, even with all your brilliance and insight, you continue to do the same thing you were addressing all those years ago. you create a battle, then are pissed when challenge. life doesnt work that way, right? you consistently see it does not work that way. yet you DEMAND that you be able to throw a jab at the chin and women take it.

my point to you... i do not have a desire to do that back and forth, back and forth, that you seem to have mired yourself in for a lifetime, and do not seem to willingly walk away from. i do not have the challenge or need to hurt others. i do not experience what you say in real life, cause i do not approach life with the need to hurt or dominate another.

it works well

not so hard

makes life peaceful

try it

[boston bean]

107. You want us to stop recommending threads and have others who haven't ever made a single post in here

to stop recommending threads.

NOPE, not gonna happen. DEAL. WITH. IT.

Take responsibility for yourself.

[RC]

108. No, you take responsibility.

When HoF threads show up on the home page, expect the rest of DU to wade in with their opinions. Opinions that do not necessarily conform to the HoF Group's reason for being.

The only reason I posted in the first place was I did not see the HoF in the header. This thread was on the Home page. You know, like exposed to the real world? When that happens, you are going to get push-back, whether you like it or not. And apparently you don't.
The solution to not getting bush-back is not showing up on the Home Page. You Can't have it both ways.

"Take responsibility for yourself." - That's a two way street.

[boston bean]

109. Apparently, you don't understand me at all.

Nor is your ability to reason adequate. You have been posting in here, which proves true you falsities in the post I am responding to.

You need to know where you are posting. That is for you to do!

I do take care of myself, and others, who will or won't recommend or will or won't post here know it is their responsibility.

So, take your personal advice about taking responsibility and apply it logically to your arguments, will ya!

[RC]

112. After my first post, where I did not see the HoF, I was defending my position.

Instead of responding to anything positive, or what anyone else here may agree with, what I see is certian HoF members searching for anything that can be taken as derogatory as proof I and others are anti whatever this group is for. And ignoring anything in agreement.
You (members of HoF) are not looking for unity or inclusion for those not a part of this group. On the contrary, it is derision you look for and respond to. No other place I have posted on DU, have I found such animosity - No matter the subject.

It doesn't matter that I have stated numerous times, that I am for full equal Rights for everyone. Women have a right to abortions. Equal pay for equal work and all the rest. Even right here in this thread. Something can always be found, in a word, phrase, purposeful misinterpretation, to denigrate those of us that have the audacity to not knuckle under and go along with the prevailing negativism here.

[seabeyond]

113. so, this is how many posts? you are well aware you are in hof, STILL the insults. ya. get over it

[boston bean]

114. You are ignoring that you are posting in this group, and insulting the hell out of us.

Get a grip, move on.

[RC]

115. Like I said...

Always the negative, never the positive.

[boston bean]

116. Like I know, you are always quick to blame but never any self introspection.

good bye, it just isn't worth my time.

[xulamaude]

117. Be sweet, not angry little lady!1! nt

[seabeyond]

119. scary. reading BB's post above, i just caught a glance and thought rc was telling bb to be .....

sweet.

almost got it all on.... lol.

[xulamaude]

120. It is scary that it's not that much of a stretch to think

RC had said that!

He uses way more words though...

[boston bean]

121. In his mind, he was a briliant ray of positivity.... does he even read what he wrote??

[xulamaude]

123. Yeah, see he's not being insulting or negative

he's sharing his manly wisdom with the cantankerous wimminz.

[seabeyond]

124. i am telling ya. i haev had two years experience with this dazzling brilliance. and that is exactly

what i come away with. can an argument be any easier to lecture on behavior as he does the very behavior. every single post of his.

[Squinch]

127. Yeah, but he has an interest in psychology, and has read books. Therefore, he feels he

is an expert.



I have an interest in quantum physics and have read books. I think that makes me a quark.

[seabeyond]

122. He uses way more words though... yup. lol. nt

[seabeyond]

118. or like you said. take responsibility. you insult. dude. that would be negative. all the time,

you projection.

[BainsBane]

154. You are more than welcome to defend far right wing men's groups

just as you can defend white supremacists if you like. That is a function of who you are as a person. The amazing thing is that you think them somehow reflective of all men. No one in here does, no more than we think white supremacists reflective of all white people.

[seabeyond]

110. personally attacking a group of people is not "opinion". it is stepping in and personally attacking

those of us in this forum. firstly, if you cannot take responsibility for that behavior, you have no place to lecture on taking responsibility.

secondly.

you are in a group that dictates behavior. period. no discussion. no finessing. no argument. that is yours and everyones reality. if you step in this group and want conversation, YOU adjust YOUR behavior to US, or do not come in.

that simple

we do not have to do a single damn thing to accommodate you.

[BainsBane]

153. Yet for some reason you've decided your problems with your ex girlfirends

are all our fault, when not a one of us, mercifully, has ever dated you.

[sheshe2]

162. HoF is a group not a forum

Statement of Purpose

The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group.

Doesn't matter where it is on DU. It is still a group not a forum. You have been here for a long time. You know the rules set by the admins. Yet even after you found that out you continue to post here. I am a host of another group. I for one would not allow you to keep posting here as it is contrary to the groups stated purpose. You are hurting people.

Just an FYI, RC.

[Squinch]

125. Maybe not. Again, based on the first line of your post and a quick skim:

You have an interest in psychology and have read books, and therefore are, indeed, going to psychoanalyze a group of strangers.

Good lord.

[seabeyond]

126. lol lol.... oh your laugh is infectious. i wonder what that means, lol. nt

[BainsBane]

152. The message is we're not supposed to be "in your face feminists"

Or we won't be able to snag a winner like him.


Suddenly, I'm enlightened. My whole life I've been waiting to meet a man who thinks women need to keep their big fat traps shut so as not to alienate a swell guy like him. Who cares what "some woman's definition of feminism" is. We're supposed to "learn" by behaving exactly like his says.



Don't you love the fact that he's decided it's all of womankind's fault that he chose women he wasn't compatible with?

[BainsBane]

156. Don't broadbrush men

when in fact the OP is about MRA guys, not all men. While I broadbrush all women based on my ex-girlfriend.



How on earth is it possible to have little awareness of what one writes?

[Squinch]

164. But he has an interest in psychology, so we all need to listen.

[bettyellen]

134. your one crappy realtionship has nothing to do with the OP. If you actully read it, you would not

embarrass yourself by being a living example for point #3.

[aikoaiko]

137. And the jury results are in...

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
At Fri Dec 20, 2013, 06:59 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

There needs to be a part six
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=32095

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Disgusting to come into a feminist group and post this tripe and then attack the group itself.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 20, 2013, 07:08 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Wow. Someone alerted this? Seriously??? Have they even read the codes for conduct on DU? Can we please break their alert button? Did they miss that "If you are the common denominator, it may be time for some self-reflection" inference? It likely applies here...
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Alerted needs to lighten up
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: https://

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[seabeyond]

138. it only took all day for someone to alert? of course it stays. insulting feminists is the in thing

dontcha know. hence, why it took all day for someone to finally alert.

[boston bean]

140. Why did you feel the need to post that jury result.

Good to know how you voted though, so thanks for that I guess.

[aikoaiko]

141. I post all the juries I'm in. Transparency is good.

It helps the community understand the community standards at play.

[boston bean]

142. So, you came here to help out? Good to know. nt

[aikoaiko]

143. It not about you or the group. its about DU. I post all leave it juries on which I serve.

It doesn't matter the group, the topic, or DU member.

We get to know when a majority vote hide a post. Its good to know when half or more say leave it.

[BainsBane]

147. Here's another thing about DU

There are groups and forums. Groups are safe havens for members who fit the SOP. Anyone who posts in a group who does not fit that SOP shows their completely disrespect for the group and the overall community of DU.

[aikoaiko]

148. Are jury results a violation of this group's SOP?

:Shrug:

[BainsBane]

150. Read them

The question is whether one supports the SOP of the group. There is no reason for anyone who does not to participate there. that is what safe havens are for.

[aikoaiko]

155. I support the SOP for this group. And I bid you good night.

[BainsBane]

146. It stirs up shit

Which everyone knows is the goal.

[aikoaiko]

151. You presume incorrectly.

[BainsBane]

144. Tell us not to broadbrush

While using an example of an ex-girlfriend as evidence of what's wrong with women? Do you even get how ridiculous this sounds?

This isn't about men. It's about MRA morons. Normal men don't go on about how oppressed they are because of women. That's something self pitying losers do.

Why you think anyone here gives a damn about your relationship problems boggles the mind. This may come as a shock, but you are not the center of the universe. None of us here are your ex and none of us want to date you. Your story is irrelevant.

[Dash87]

41. A plea to greatest pagers - read the actual article, not just the title.

The OP is about the ridiculous "A girl somewhere rejected me, and therefore men are oppressed" mentality. The concept of systemic Misandry to somebody who hasn't been living under a rock should be laughable - it's like claiming that white people are the most oppressed group in society.

[xulamaude]

57. So many women have such good reason to be

really, really angry at men - hating them even.

So many women have been sexually/physically/emotionally abused by fathers and brothers and uncles and husbands and sons at home, neighbors and boyfriends and teachers and co-workers and bosses outside in the world.

And even for those 'lucky' enough to 'survive' without having been victimized, they are still made to live in a world where men legislatively control their bodies, where the specter of rape and the pervasiveness of rape culture cause them to live in a constant state of hyper vigilance while at the same time having ever increasing demands put upon their sexuality.

Add to all of that the economic, educational and medical deprivation women have been subject to for centuries and is it any wonder that some women hate men?

Does it truly harm anyone at all that some women justifiably hate men for the power/control they have exerted over every single aspect of our lives?

Do these women have the power to destroy mankind?

[seabeyond]

62. this is what amazes me. rape, abuse, murder, oppression, submission, subjugated, degraded

and it is men that have a reason to hate all of a gender, not women.

[chromotone]

59. Part Four left out an important "Men's Rights" issue...

Should include: Feminists do not want you to have to relight the pilot light on the water heater when it goes out. Nor do we want you to take full responsibility for seeing to the regular maintenance of the cars. Nor do we expect you to fix the leaky faucet. Nor do we expect you to do the yard work and take out the trash. Nor do we expect you to climb up into the attack/down into the crawl space to see why the furnace isn't working. Nor do we expect you to lift and tote when lifting and toting are required...

I could go on but you get the message.

Yet, these "responsibilities" and many others are still expected of men. Learn to do them yourself! I mean, really do them for yourself. Self-reliance is the key to true happiness, and if you're dependent on a man to do these for you, or if you expect to make a lot of money in your careers and professions so you can pay someone to do them for you, you're not really "self-reliant," are you?

I remember reading articles when I was in college during the 1970s about women who were doing that own automobile maintenance. I thought "How refreshing! I won't have to get my fingernails dirty because a woman was to keep her fingernails clean!" I wonder 35 years later how many women are working on their cars: changing the oil, replacing air filters, draining and refilling the radiator, etc. I wonder...

You can run companies and countries if you so desire, but just learn to relight the damn pilot light on the water heater when it goes out and leave the guys alone.

Savvy?

[seabeyond]

64. all with expectation of bringing in income while doing all housework, caring of children, feeding

of family, running all the errands to manage a household and be the favorite porn actress for the hubby, while look 20 not her natural 40 cause she is representative of his masculinity when on his arm, dontcha know

i know. the burden is TOO great for a man. how do they manage under the weight. not fair. so... not fair.

[geek tragedy]

69. Oy, so you start with a gender stereotype and then blame women for the stereotype being

a reality in your head.

And to top it off, it's a very trivial issue and not one of 'rights.'

Just to educate you:

I wonder 35 years later how many women are working on their cars: changing the oil, replacing air filters, draining and refilling the radiator, etc. I wonder...

Yes indeed women do know how to do all of these things. Maybe a few more men than women do, but not something all that significant and not an issue of rights or oppression. If a woman (or a man) wants to hire Jiffy Lube to replace their car's fluids instead of doing it herself/himself, who the fuck is oppressed by that?

You can run companies and countries if you so desire, but just learn to relight the damn pilot light on the water heater when it goes out and leave the guys alone.

Jesus wept.

[seabeyond]

70. Jesus wept. for real. tragc. just leave the man alone. and assume ALL responsibilities running

the hosuehold. truly fuckin amazing. this whole thread is. brought me back in

[geek tragedy]

72. apparently lighting the furnace is an example of gender oppression. who knew?

I like the presumption that women can't live without men. Apparently this "single women" demographic I hear about is a fiction.

[seabeyond]

73. btw... i lit the pilot last saturday in game room so a bunch of teenage boys could stay warm.

does that make me one of the good ones?

[geek tragedy]

74. depends, did you bake cookies for them too? nt

[seabeyond]

80. lol... tomorrow or the next day. though i provided snack food. nt

[boston bean]

88. did you do that on bended knee and a tray of refreshments in your other hand?

[seabeyond]

90. nah. these boys love me. follow me around going on and on and on. they just do not see me

as the all dreaded man hater. they go on talking so much, i have to schoo them away, to go play pool or whatever. lol

[MadrasT]

76. Expected of men by whom?

Before he passed, my husband and I would both cut the grass -- when the lawnmower broke, he called me at work to tell him what to do.

When the furnace didn't work, he called me at work to tell him what to do.

When a light needed rewired, it was me up on the ladder.

When snow needed shoveled, I was out there shoveling.

I changed my own oil... he changed his own oil.

Whoever was hungry would cook.



*Except leaky faucets, I called a plumber. And scheduled the plumber. And paid the plumber.

I know plenty of other women who do these things. Hell, it was my mother who taught me how to change a tire back in 1981. And how to patch drywall. And how to hang a chandelier. Dad was there, it just wasn't he who did those kinds of things.

If you don't know women who do these things, you must live under a rock.

[Warpy]

82. Eventually I did it all except maintain a couple of third world cars

and I was doing it all by myself. When I asked myself why, there was no answer.

So I left.

That's not misandry, it's exhaustion.

If my Prince Charming is out there, he's going to have to heave his bulk out of that recliner and get his own damned beer. I'm done.

[Sheldon Cooper]

77. Another of the more unintentionally hilarious posts on this board.

[xulamaude]

78. What about households in which no men live?

There are lots of those, you know, and pretty much somebody in that household has learned to do a whole lot of stuff that is "still expected of men" because most women don't have a whole ton of money to pay an HVAC company the service call charge to come out to relight a pilot light.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Not the father.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

96. You satirist, you.

[ismnotwasm]

100. My husband has multiple sclerosis

He's unable to do many 'masculine' things. Fortunately he married a woman who not only can, but doesn't think twice about antiquated gender roles. He does what he can, I do what I do.

I know plenty of men who know exactly shit about cars, especially new ones. Perpetuating a male stereotype is not what we're about.

Edit--a pilot light? Seriously?

[Squinch]

102. Are you 80?

Because otherwise, you need to get out more.

[redqueen]

103. Well said.

It's weird how tightly some cling to antiquated gender roles.

[raccoon]

104. Maybe he's a time traveller from the 1950's...the handle implies it. nt

[ismnotwasm]

128. Heh!

[BainsBane]

163. Did you mistake someone in here for your wife?

Because I know I never asked you to relight a pilot light.

[MadrasT]

79. Oh look.

A whole thread full of folks saying feminists aren't nice enough.

How novel. How original.

[seabeyond]

81. lmao. nt

[Squinch]

130. Shocked! Shocked I tell you. I think these guys are the flies that you catch

when you use honey instead of vinegar.

I like an electric insect zapper, myself: ZZZZZZPTH!! Splat!

[redqueen]

177. !!!

I don't know how I missed that yesterday but YES! SO MUCH YES!

[Squinch]

185. .

[CrispyQ]

92. Part Four was outstanding.

~kick

[Tuesday Afternoon]

93. du rec

[redqueen]

97. Holy shit... I thought this was an old OP. This escalated quickly.

I love the example of how misandry isn't a thing, using sneetches and snootches.

Excellent piece, thanks for posting it.

[ismnotwasm]

98. This is such good stuff

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 05:17 PM - Edit history (1)

The ones who really need to read and internalize it will object or dismiss it. The ones who don't, already know---and inbetween, is a thin sliver of people who will have an 'aha!' Moment and be open enough to learn, and change

[UtahLib]

111. Proud to K&R

Apparently, the truth hurts enough to prompt some to retaliate by posting the most obnoxious and self serving comments derived from nothing more than stunted perceptions.

[nomorenomore08]

139. I used to get annoyed by the phrase "What about the menz?" because it seemed overly

dismissive. But when I realized it was being used against "menz" who were more or less dismissive of an entire gender, I got over it.

[BainsBane]

159. Oh yeah. Menz doesn't mean men

It means a certain kind of self pitying guy.

[nomorenomore08]

186. I get that, yeah.

[bettyellen]

129. "Why People Being Shitty to You Is Not the Same as You Being Systematically Disenfranchised " Yep.

It's amazing how much petty shit- like being rejected by a crush or one person being rude- is held out here as a valid reason to be angry at all feminist women. This stuff happens to everyone all the time, time to grow up.
Great piece, thanks.