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Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:49 PM

Why Don't Men Finish College As Often As Women

The job market. Why are men more likely to give up on college and get a job instead when their college debt mounts, while women stick to their original plans? In “Gender, Debt, and Dropping Out of College,” Dwyer and colleagues suggest that women’s willingness to stick it out longer in the face of higher debt is a paradoxical result of women’s continuing disadvantage on the job market. In the short run, men who drop out of college do not experience a wage penalty in comparison to their peers who go on to graduate. It may be harder for men than for women to see the advantage of staying in college because in the early years after college, men who complete college make no higher pay than men who drop out.

In contrast, women who complete college earn on average upwards of $6,500 more than women who have dropped out. The authors explain, “Female dropouts simply face worse job prospects than male dropouts.” In particular, women who drop out are more likely to be employed in lower-paying service work, while men who drop out have opportunities in higher–paying manufacturing, construction, and transportation work.

So men withdraw sooner, but pay later. While men don’t face a wage penalty early on if they drop out, the penalty accumulates later. By middle age, men with a college degree earn $20,000 more on average than men with some college but no degree.

As University of Massachusetts sociologist Joya Misra, editor of Gender & Society, puts it, “Dwyer and her colleagues show that looking at gender differences can’t be reduced to ‘winners’ and ‘losers.’ Women’s recent advantage in college graduation rates is associated with their relative disadvantage in the job market. At the same time, men’s seeming advantages in the short run can lure them away from a surer path—college completion—to longer term economic security.”


http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/Gender-Sexuality/why-dont-men-finish-college-as-often-as-women-press-release.html

I found this very interesting

34 replies, 2470 views

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Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why Don't Men Finish College As Often As Women (Original post)
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 OP
WCGreen Feb 2013 #1
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #2
MadrasT Feb 2013 #3
eridani Feb 2013 #9
seabeyond Feb 2013 #20
Dash87 Feb 2013 #11
seabeyond Feb 2013 #21
Dash87 Feb 2013 #12
seabeyond Feb 2013 #19
applegrove Feb 2013 #4
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #5
applegrove Feb 2013 #6
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #7
seabeyond Feb 2013 #22
al_liberal Feb 2013 #8
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2013 #10
MadrasT Feb 2013 #13
seabeyond Feb 2013 #23
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #14
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #16
MadrasT Feb 2013 #18
seabeyond Feb 2013 #24
Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #29
seabeyond Feb 2013 #30
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #15
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #17
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #25
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #27
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #28
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #31
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #32
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #33
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2013 #34
socialindependocrat Feb 2013 #26

Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:00 PM

1. If I were to guess I would say that women are better at sticking with things because they are

wired to be patient and nourishing to their children and men, well, they shoot, score and can walk out the door.

I know it sounds sexist but really, I think that one can be tied to ingrained sexual behavior in many ways.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:12 PM

2. I dislike dichotomies like that

Plus it ignores most of history. This is a recent phenomena, as more and more women entered college. Think of all the great scholars throughout history. They were men, because women were not allowed/encouraged to be educated.

They learned multiple languages. They developed philosophies and mathematical theories and inventions. They buckled down and most certainly didn't walk out the door.

An economic driven reason sounds more likely to me.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:25 PM

3. Socially conditioned to be that way perhaps

I do not believe behavior is "wired" to gender in any way

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:59 PM

9. Tradtional American anti-intellectualism is now differentially harming young men, IMO

It used to be that jobs that paid enough to live on were reserved for men, so how well they did in school was irrelevant for most jobs. Jobs that pay well now require education, and American women have never been as contemptuous of "book learning" as men.

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Response to eridani (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:43 AM

20. absolutely. we had to fight "Tradtional American anti-intellectualism" thru out

my boys education.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:11 PM

11. Those are gender stereotypes.

It is just as wrong as firing off gender stereotypes about women. Most are either the result of social conditioning or flat out wrong.

This is especially true about implying that men are not nurturing or in any way worse with children. It's socially harmful and everybody friggin does it to the point of annoyance. It's like saying that women are naturally better cooks, men are better at math, or stupid crap like that.

Your "sexually ingrained" statement is another annoying stereotype. It has nothing to do with the story.

Sorry, but I see these kinds of qualities assigned to women all of the time and it isn't right. Using the same logic to talk about men isn't right either.

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Response to Dash87 (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:45 AM

21. "men are not nurturing or in any way worse with children."

i hate that one. i watched two brothers kick ass as parents cause the moms checked out. they were all that in the nurturing. my hubby would kick ass, he has not had to do it, cause i am there to do it. but... it is certainly in him and is just that whenever the situation arises. same with father.

has nothing to do with gender and all to do with circumstance and socializing expectations.

i hate that one.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:50 PM

12. Those are gender stereotypes

It is just as wrong as firing off gender stereotypes about women. Most are either the result of social conditioning or flat out wrong.

This is especially true about implying that men are not nurturing or in any way worse with children. It's socially harmful and everybody friggin does it to the point of annoyance. It's like saying that women are naturally better cooks, men are better at math, or stupid crap like that.

Your "sexually ingrained" statement is another annoying stereotype. It has nothing to do with the story.

Sorry, but I see these kinds of qualities assigned to women all of the time and it isn't right. Using the same logic to talk about men isn't right either.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:41 AM

19. omg... wc. lol. i have one sons that thrives on adult behavior. he will make it thru.

i have one son that is like me and does not do well under restriction. college will be more challenging like it was for me.

no... it is not about gender.

now, if you want to say the reality we live today, i am all for that. i girl sees little opportunity and pay without a degree. a boy see options without a degree.

no more, no less.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:40 PM

4. Testosterone?

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Response to applegrove (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:43 PM

5. Why would you say that?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:02 PM

6. I read it somewhere on the DU a few months ago. Younger guys are out and about and not

in graduate school these days. They didn't mention testosterone per se but I think that is what they meant.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:33 PM

7. Hmm

The one thing about education, gendered or not was in the past it available to relatively few, those who could get it usually were wealthy prior to the forming of a middle class. Women were rarely college educated until the last 100 years or so

So while I still think the economic theory makes the most sense, it terms of total benefit, I know college isn't a good fit for everyone. I don't know if testosterone has anything to do with it, but we have lost many craft/guild type occupations, as well as family farms. It's probably a bigger tangle.

There are people you find I call throw backs, not in the derogatory sense, but they just don't quite fit; they're not stupid, but simple (which isn't a bad thing) almost as though they were meant for less technical times. It's just whimsy on my part I'm sure.

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Response to applegrove (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:47 AM

22. so much of the stuff we say about T is a myth. they now come out saying it helps for fair play

and a whole lot of other social positives. and have rejected it promotes aggression. not going with T. (i always spell word wrong, just going with T for now on)

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:44 PM

8. Just my two cents here.

I spent 5 years getting a worthless UG degree but man what a party it was. There were many many guys along my trek who thought the party was college. Needless to say, they received the same grades as Blutarsky, ZERO POINT ZERO. It's very difficult to convince any source of tuition that you should continue after that. But oh boy how much fun it was to drink your ass off and chase the gals. Getting one pregnant and being a man about it also ended college for several.

Hey, most college kids are only a few months older than they were when they graduated high school. Responsibility takes a backseat to knowing everything at that age.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:47 AM

10. MRA groups have turned this upside down

to claim that women now have an unfair advantage over men when it comes to graduating from college. The irony is just too ridiculous.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:11 PM

13. I hear it from someone in my life

EVERY TIME I bring up any kind of feminist issue.

For example,


Me: (mentions something about the pervasive street harassment women experience)

Him: "If that is true, that is disturbing. But more women than men are graduating college now!"



The response is always preceded by "If that is true", too (as if I just pull this shit out of my ass, it's just my twisted perception, it doesn't really happen as much as I say it does).


It is to the point where I am going to scream the next time he says it.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #13)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:49 AM

23. then i say... parents, do you fuckin' job, lol and give the boys the tools to make it thru

college. as we do with the girls cause we know their options are limited.

tell your man...

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:55 PM

14. I can hazard another speculation, if no one minds.

.. it has nothing to do with "wiring" or evo psych or any of that- it's purely sociological and really just a hunch. Call it the "grass is greener" syndrome. Men- maybe not even so much the Millennials in college now but certainly my cohort and those probably 10 years younger.. grew up seeing lots of "successful", educated, and fundamentally frustrated and/or unhappy men of their dads' generation. Women of the same age, likewise, grew up seeing lots of frustrated, unhappy moms and women who were unable to pursue fulfilling careers due to entrenched sexism.

The overwhelming sense I had- across the board- with the generation of my own parents (call them the "Mad Men" generation) was that they felt shoehorned into a world which stopped existing not long after. They were (for the most part) too old to be hippies, stuck in cardboard careers and early marriages while the folks 5-10 years younger got naked at woodstock. This led to things like their subsequent divorce explosion IMHO.

I think a lot of people were lost, and unhappy, for instance during the 70s- for real practical reasons like discrimination in the workplace as well as deeper philosophical ennui. So I think for Gen X, for instance, there was a broad determination to notdowhatourparentsdid; but what that translates to, in reality, depends on what the parents did not do, as well.

This is not to discount the point made in the article about wage disparity on graduation, either- I suspect that is likely a factor, certainly with younger people... although it displays a marked lack of foresight on the part of the men who are dropping out.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:16 PM

16. That is interesting

We know as well that a college degree, while making it more likely to earn a decent income, is no guarantee for it. So it's a multifactorial problem, with IMO incentive (income) being the primary factor.

The 'me' generation of the 70s probably were a lost bunch. I was a teenager and wanted to know where all the fight and passion had gone. I remember feeling let down, as ennui took over after the fire of the 60's, because even then I knew we, as a society had a long way to go.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:32 AM

18. I think there is truth in what you wrote n/t

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:54 AM

24. what i see a lot of is hopelessness. on the one hand knowing a college degree provides a security

and a contradictory picture that jobs are outsourced, wage is down, and regardless of getting a degree or not, they are fucked along with the horrendous cost of college.

i think a lot of what you discuss was at least a decade ago, and that part of the story has shifted a bit.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #24)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:58 PM

29. Yes.

Like the difference between being a Barista at Starbucks and a Barista at Starbucks with a B.A. and $60K worth of debt.

I was examining the larger historical trend, such as it is- my explanation is definitely not as relevant for those coming out of college now.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #29)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:06 PM

30. a Barista at Starbucks and a Barista at Starbucks with a B.A.

made me laugh. ya. that.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:33 PM

15. As a Physics major answering these types of problems were details...

...left to the student as an exercise. They were often trivial for the superior students and unknown mysteries for others.

This tact was common among male teachers. Perhaps it is indicative of an overall male attitude to leave the details to others.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:18 PM

17. I want an explanation of the Higgs boson

Whats this crap about being sucked into an alternative universe, thus ending ours? I can't believe some of the stuff I've been reading about.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:39 AM

25. Let me first apologize....

...for hating QM due to the annoying convergence of a terrible text book, confusing notation, an impatient teacher and a case of senioritis. However, the wiki page is fairly good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

I would suggest that, since our universe has been around for billions of years, the chances of anything with or without the help of countless Higgs bosons, ending this universe anytime soon is small. On my list ahead of that worry is my concern that the pizza hut sliders will vanish before I have a chance to try them.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:08 PM

27. LOL

I like reading about, lay persons books like 'the elegant Universe' or Physics of the Impossible'

The best thing about both books is that they tried to get the reader grounded in the theory of relativity and special relativity, before they got a little woo woo.

Fun stuff though.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 05:15 PM

28. Physics books...

...tend to be either good or bad, few are in the middle ground. One of my teachers recommended One Two Three ... Infinity by George Gamow. I found this book to cover a lot ground and be quite understandable. Gamow was a bit. He is reputed to have chosen grad students to work with him because together their names were Alpher, Bethe and Gamow.

On a similar note I was always impressed by Bill Lear (Learjet creator) for naming his daughter Shanda.

Getting back to Physics, I'll have to remember to bore you with some Physics humor now and then.
For example:
There once was a fellow named Fisk
Whose fencing was exceedingly brisk
So fast was his action
the Fitzgerald contraction
Reduced his rapier to a disk.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:19 PM

31. You know I had to google Fitzgerald Contraction!

Cute limerick though

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:25 PM

32. Have a t-shirt:

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #32)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:39 PM

33. LoL



Edit--I want one

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Response to ismnotwasm (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:04 PM

26. A desire to earn a living and get hitched

I left college in my third year to get a lob and get married.

I was a lab tech. for 35 years and someone did some calculations
comparing salaries and debt of the degreed people vs the technicians.

They figured that with a technician working from 18 years old and the PhD.
graduating at 24 - 26 years old with a wife and two children that it would take
17 years for the PhD to catch up to the tech. who would have some savings, a home
and maybe a summer cottage.

I would suspect that with the college tuitions being $30K a year instead of $5K per year
that paying off the college debt will take even longer - if you can get a job...

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