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Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:55 PM

A question to those who support banning pornography because it objectifies women.

I'm not going to argue that pornography doesn't objectify women, some pornography clearly does. I would also consider myself a feminist who believes that women are equal to men on any measure that matters and that objectifying anyone is a terrible thing to do.

Having said all that I still don't support banning pornography. To explain why I'd like to present a question to everyone.

Lets say today the entire world banned pornography. Owning and or producing pornography is now illegal and the consequences for both these actions are substantial.

Alright, now what?

What hasn't changed is there is still a massive demand for pornography. It has been amply demonstrated throughout history that whenever there is that kind of demand for a product and that demand can't be satisfied legally, a black market springs up to do exactly that through illegal means. Can anyone imagine what the black market for pornography would look like? People are disgusted by the conditions of workers in porn industry now, what would those conditions be like if the pornographers no longer have any incentive to act within the confines of the law (what they are doing is already illegal after all)?

Now consider what that vast black market and the money behind it would do to the world. As popular as drugs are they are still a fairly niche market, yet the money behind that niche market is still able to fuel some of the greatest human tragedies in the world today. A quick look to our neighbors to the south can demonstrate that fact. My guess would be that illegal pornography would be several magnitudes more profitable than illegal drugs, what would these groups that already kill for drug money do if porn suddenly became illegal and they have an opportunity to make even more money? Narcoterrorism is horrible, what would pornterrorism look like?

Finally, I'd contend that such a ban would be completely unenforceable. We can't even keep illegal drugs out of our county and those are physical goods that have to be transported. Does anyone really believe a ban on pornography could be enforced? Even if you cracked down on this black market with the full force of the united states government, you'd never be able to stop something that can be transferred digitally. Short of 1984 like constant monitoring of all online communication, I don't think it would be much harder to find porn online in this world then it would be now. Would it be worth it to get rid of even the most basic concept of privacy to end porn? Would even as extreme of a measure of that actually work? Somehow I doubt it.

Even if you had the perfect theoretical argument for why porn should be banned, just because you ban something doesn't mean it stops to exist. Throughout history bans of this kind have tended to do more harm than good.

What do you think? Do you believe there are practical solutions to these problems?

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Arrow 92 replies Author Time Post
Reply A question to those who support banning pornography because it objectifies women. (Original post)
Kurska Nov 2012 OP
seabeyond Nov 2012 #1
Kurska Nov 2012 #2
redqueen Nov 2012 #6
Kurska Nov 2012 #8
redqueen Nov 2012 #3
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #78
Kurska Nov 2012 #79
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #81
seabeyond Nov 2012 #82
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #83
caseymoz Nov 2012 #84
redqueen Nov 2012 #85
seabeyond Nov 2012 #86
caseymoz Jan 2013 #88
seabeyond Jan 2013 #91
seabeyond Jan 2013 #92
caseymoz Jan 2013 #87
madville Nov 2012 #4
redqueen Nov 2012 #5
madville Nov 2012 #9
seabeyond Nov 2012 #13
redqueen Nov 2012 #20
seabeyond Nov 2012 #30
seabeyond Nov 2012 #12
jeggus Nov 2012 #7
seabeyond Nov 2012 #14
MadrasT Nov 2012 #10
redqueen Nov 2012 #18
MadrasT Nov 2012 #21
Kurska Nov 2012 #22
redqueen Nov 2012 #24
Kurska Nov 2012 #25
redqueen Nov 2012 #29
seabeyond Nov 2012 #32
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #39
Kurska Nov 2012 #40
seabeyond Nov 2012 #43
Kurska Nov 2012 #44
seabeyond Nov 2012 #45
Kurska Nov 2012 #48
seabeyond Nov 2012 #50
Kurska Nov 2012 #52
seabeyond Nov 2012 #54
Kurska Nov 2012 #55
seabeyond Nov 2012 #57
zazen Nov 2012 #11
Kurska Nov 2012 #15
seabeyond Nov 2012 #17
Kurska Nov 2012 #19
seabeyond Nov 2012 #33
Kurska Nov 2012 #37
seabeyond Nov 2012 #46
Kurska Nov 2012 #49
seabeyond Nov 2012 #51
Kurska Nov 2012 #53
seabeyond Nov 2012 #56
seabeyond Nov 2012 #58
redqueen Nov 2012 #59
seabeyond Nov 2012 #60
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #76
redqueen Nov 2012 #77
Kurska Nov 2012 #63
seabeyond Nov 2012 #64
Kurska Nov 2012 #65
redqueen Nov 2012 #66
Kurska Nov 2012 #68
redqueen Nov 2012 #69
Kurska Nov 2012 #70
redqueen Nov 2012 #72
Kurska Nov 2012 #73
redqueen Nov 2012 #74
Kurska Nov 2012 #75
CrispyQ Nov 2012 #67
Kurska Nov 2012 #71
redqueen Nov 2012 #80
caseymoz Jan 2013 #89
caseymoz Jan 2013 #90
MadrasT Nov 2012 #23
seabeyond Nov 2012 #34
seabeyond Nov 2012 #16
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #27
seabeyond Nov 2012 #35
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #38
seabeyond Nov 2012 #47
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #26
Kurska Nov 2012 #28
redqueen Nov 2012 #31
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #36
redqueen Nov 2012 #41
ismnotwasm Nov 2012 #42
LanternWaste Nov 2012 #61
LineLineReply .
seabeyond Nov 2012 #62

Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 08:58 PM

1. i have never suggested a ban, nor have i heard anyone argue a ban. so, the purpose of your post

does not fly.

second. you are under an illusion if you think there are any kinds of regulations and controls in the internet porn, or even the so called legit porn. and if women and our children are not being abused every. single. day. for the purpose of entertaining to jack off to.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:04 PM

2. I never suggested that you personally believe pornography should be banned.

I have, however, sometimes run into people who say they are feminists and believe that pornography should be banned because they pornography has negative effects on women. I'm trying to open a line of dialogue with these people about that viewpoint.

What do you support then? You seem to very strongly believe that pornography is a horrible thing. If you don't support banning it, what do you support if anything to try and fix that?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:11 PM

6. What fun would it be if feminists weren't asked to speak for everyone BUT themselves?

Come on, sea... Dworkin said X, Y and Z... DEFEND IT! EXPLAIN IT NOW!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #6)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:18 PM

8. I never asked you to speak for anyone.

This thread is about feminist who support banning pornography. You are not a feminists who supports banning pornography.

You are of course free to comment on or in the thread, but I never demanded you explain anything.

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:05 PM

3. No, a ban would not work, not for 'regular' porn.

I do support bans on child porn and 'rape' porn.

What we need is not to ban all porn, but to challenge the culture which casts women as sex objects. This is part of rape culture. Apparently a lot of people just do not want to look at what's out there. It isn't pretty. Case in point, there is a site out there called 18 and Abused. Then there's one called Rape Board.

People need to wake the fuck up and stop acting like libertarians, defending anything and everything that can possibly be fapped to.

Stop insisting that anti porn people explain themselves, and deal with reality. We aren't the threat.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:06 PM

78. This.

...stop acting like libertarians, defending anything and everything that can possibly be fapped to.


As a culture, we decided that some speech qualifies as hate speech & we legislated it. Did that stop hate speech? No. What it did do is say that, as a society we agree that hate speech is not acceptable in our culture & crimes that qualify as that, carry stronger penalties.

The idea that everyone has the right to express themselves in any way, shape or form, regardless of the harm it does to our society, is just wrong. I think of 14 year old boys, watching what is considered 'regular porn' these days, & I wonder how will they have a chance at a successful live experience with a real girl if they continue to watch this shit?

I never answer the porn defenders in our forum. Why should I? They are just two holes & two hands. I trump them with three holes & two hands.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #78)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:57 PM

79. Hate speech is completely legal.

What are you talking about? It isn't hate speech that is considered a crime or enhances a crime, but actions inspired by hate that carry stiffer penalties than actions inspired by say greed.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #79)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:41 AM

81. You are correct, I was mistaken.

I thought for a moment I lived in a society that abhors hate & bullying, then I put down the bong & came back to reality.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #81)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:18 AM

82. bah hahaha. i want some

can i go into colorado now and get some, or the feds gonna get me. i havent been paying attention

oh oh, and my son is being recruited by a couple colleges in colorado.

oh oh oh, and i get to drive him in a couple months from now to check out colleges.

he is old and staid, me? i like to play. lol. and i dont have parents around



cute post

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #82)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:39 AM

83. Sea, if you are in Colorado, you'd better call me!

CU Boulder is gorgeous! Stunningly beautiful campus.

I'm not sure how the new law is going to work. I've read that CO's medical MJ program is modeled differently than CA's & that's one reason CO didn't have as much issue with the DOJ, but I don't know all the details.

I remember when Arnold Schwarzenegger defended MJ & stated, "It is a leaf!" A few days after that I was at the natural grocers & grabbed a few boxes for moving & one of the boxes had the logo, "Trust the Leaf" on it & I

Yeah, you come to CO & we'll have fun!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:47 AM

84. If this had been clear months ago . . .


. . . I'd have called you reasonable. I'm still don't think this is what most antiporn people are trying to rally against. The vast majority of porn depicts consensual sex.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #84)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 07:39 AM

85. It's been clear from the jump.

People don't read. They don't listen.

They do the hair on fire OMGZ OH NOOOO! DON'T TAKE AWAY THE PORRNNNNN!!!1!11 dunbass bullshit.

Even Shelley fucking Lubben just wants some goddamn protections for women for fuck's sake.

Fucking idiocy.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #85)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:51 AM

86. we only say it in every damn post, for years only to have pro porn whine... you want to ban.

then the poster comes in and tells us it is our fault.

hmmmmmmm

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #86)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 01:04 AM

88. Umm, well it certainly sounded like you want to ban.

What type of erotica do you not oppose? That video you posted below (#46), are you saying representative of porn? Because if you are, it seems to imply that you want to ban.

Okay, so if you're not talking about banning, what do you mean? Can you describe any conceivable video of heterosexual erotica with complete nudity that you would find acceptable? Acceptable being, not obscene, licit, legal?

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #88)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:36 AM

91. thru pm i want to be clear. casey is dead set against rape-as-pornography. he thought i was talking

Last edited Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:46 PM - Edit history (1)

about something else and did not realize i was talking about a video on FB showing a gang rape of a kidnapped girl.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #88)


Response to redqueen (Reply #85)


Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:05 PM

4. What about gay male porn?

It objectifies men so that should be equally considered and included.

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Response to madville (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:09 PM

5. No, it shouldn't. This is the history of feminism group.

Find some footage of gay male porn stars being raped, then we will talk.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:33 PM

9. My bad, popped up on latest threads

Thought it was in general, disregard

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Response to madville (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:39 PM

13. wink... gotcha. but already answered and not gonna delete. nt

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Response to madville (Reply #9)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:55 PM

20. Wow.

Thanks for not flipping out about the fact that this is a protected group... I'm slightly stunned.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:16 PM

30. was nice, wasnt it. nt

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Response to madville (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:38 PM

12. omg... not the gay male porn argument. always and true, never tired. geeezus.

not the same. heterosexual male porn is about the domination and submission of women in order to get off on cause men really cant get off otherwise, or so the porn makers literally say.

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:16 PM

7. Let me finish.......................

 

before I answer!

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Response to jeggus (Reply #7)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:40 PM

14. wow. you are a hoot.

not

and a newbie at that. not impressed.

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:34 PM

10. Can't help you.

I am not in your target demographic.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #10)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:48 PM

18. What are the odds there is anyone on DU in the target demographic?

Someone who
A. Wants to ban porn
B. For one reason: Objectification

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Response to redqueen (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:58 PM

21. None that I know of.

Which makes this... still more tiresome flamebait trollery.

Yet they think they are so clever with their boring, tedious same-shit-different-day nonsense.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:59 PM

22. Why one reason?

You can want to ban pornography for an endless number of reasons and my post still holds up. I've seen people advocating banning pornography on DU before.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #22)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:00 PM

24. That was stipulated in the OP...

so you tell me.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:02 PM

25. Feel free to substitute that single word with anything

It doesn't change the substance of my post, which you apparently agreed with so what is the problem?

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Response to Kurska (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:15 PM

29. The problem is your apparent belief that any black market could spring up

that could be any worse than what is out there now.

Wasting energy battling strawman arguments about banning porn ... what is the point?

Tell me how a black market could be worse. The most popular porn site in the world is a cam site, on which you can pay desperate women in many countries to do whatever you want, at your command. Abuse and rape sites are great business

But all we see are hair on fire theatrics about the horrible threat of losing access to teh pron. It is beyond sickening.

We need to see a lot more acknowledgment of what is out there, and no more libertarian kneejerking defensiveness of why nobody should ever dare think of banning teh pron! Oh my goodness no! Things would only get worse! An argument, by the way, that women are well used to. Usually in the form of: 'If you take away porn more women will get raped!' No implicit threat there, and no selling men out as uncontrollable, irredeemable werewolves of violent sexual appetites. And now we get assholes claiming 'If we only let them watch simulated child porn, they'd surely stop raping so many kids. So let's try that!' Society is sick and getting sicker. It is past time to stop acting as if rape culture is inevitable.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:22 PM

32. very good post redqueen. for me, any thinking person that does not at the least PAUSE, fuckin PAUSE

at the lack of restrictions on the net to control rapes and sex slavery for a man to jack off to for entertainment says fuckin a whole hell of a lot.

what human being would not trip over the fact that maybe a person is being abused and hurt so they could get off.

where would that entertainment value come in with consideration that maybe the woman is held against her will, forced to do things she does not want ot do, being hurt.

what human being would not even blink at that consideration.

damn i am blessed having a hubby that not only took an interest, read up on it but shared the info with me and two sons.... making clear his feeling on the abuse of other human beings.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:50 PM

39. That is the one argument

-- that the lack of porn will lead to more sexual assault that horrifies me the most. Don't these people even understand the implications of that if it were true?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:51 PM

40. So you're not saying we shouldn't ban porn

But I'm a kneejerking libertarian if I say we shouldn't? I still fail to see what I did wrong.

"Tell me how a black market could be worse." same reason the black market of prohibition is worse than the regulated alcohol industry we have now. You take the money out of the hands of businessman and give it to criminals. Giving criminals a lot of money tends to have a bad effect on society (see the current drug fuelled conflicts)

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Response to Kurska (Reply #40)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:06 PM

43. so, you really do not take seriously what you have been told on this thread, that the net already

has no rules and regulation and the criminal org is already in place making the money of the women and children,.... where would the balck market come in with a sex slave trade entertaining you already???

i mean. the only conclusion, after all the posts to you, for you to go into this, that you refuse to not only listen, but not consider.

so why should any woman on this forum put in the time and effort into discussion

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #43)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:16 PM

44. I'd be happy to hear any rules or regulations you'd like to put in place.

As far as I've seen you haven't purposed any, so how am I not listening if you're not speaking?

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Response to Kurska (Reply #44)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:21 PM

45. what rules and regulation can you possibly think of that will do anything to stop the forcing of

women, and children to do horrible things so someone can make a buck off them? really.... think this one thru.

my hubby had a really good suggestion. that trash would NOT come into our house and we would NOT support the abuse of anyone. stop.... the end. of the fuckin story.

we cannot know WHO is being abused, forced, raped, held captive.

not gonna be a part of it.

supply and demand bubba.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #45)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:55 PM

48. Isn't it already illegal to force someone to make porn?

Or to make porn with children in it period?

I do agree we need to do a much better job of enforcing those laws.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #48)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:06 AM

50. see. this is why i have no interest even the first moment you posted your OP, to have

conversation with you.

we are talking about a very real, horrific issue with women and children. and your cavalier attitude disgusts me. i cannot make that any more clear. your dismissal of very real pain to other human beings. absolutely not a single interest in reflecting where our world is today, what human beings are being put thru so you and others can get off.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #50)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:13 AM

52. I'm saying punish it to the fullest extent of the law.

How is that dismissive or a cavalier attitude about the victims pain?

By the way, I'm a gay man. I've never bought the kind of porn you're talking about. Hell I've never bought porn in the first place. So I really wish you'd stop trying to make this personal.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:19 AM

54. ok. here is my issue. it is nigh impossible to get these people. it is nigh impossible to enforce

any laws, catch them, stop them.

human beings are suffering. and will continue to suffer. this porn is just feeding, enticing, growing the demand. and it is being taken out on the women and children.

it is not something so simple of enforcement.

the net. how do you catch them

a rape, on facebook. how can they catch them?

they cant

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #54)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:26 AM

55. As a society we need to try and enforce it when possible.

And as individual we need to be sure to not financially contribute to that suffering. I certainly never have and I will continue to not to.

Beyond that I don't know. What I'm saying is that banning porn won't help either (not that I am implying you are calling for that, but that was the point of my original post).

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Response to Kurska (Reply #55)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:35 AM

57. ya.

ok.

i have never seen anyone on du, in all the years i have been on du, advocate the banning.

we pretty much know that is not the answer.

so i think all about agree with you on that.

we may not see much of a difference though, whether it is banned or not.

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:34 PM

11. the anti-porn legislation of 80s was civil, not criminal

It basically just gave women harmed in the making in pornography, or who could demonstrate harm from porn in the workplace or that was clearly involved in motivating a crime (like the little Asian girl who was hanged in Chapel Hill right after the Penthouse issue of Asian women hanging from trees came out) a chance to sue the pornographers.

Now, a person who spills hot coffee on themselves from mcDonalds gets to sue them for hundreds of thousands of dollars, but a person coerced into making porn can't even get an injunction to get her filmed rape out of production because it's "protected speech," let alone sue the bastards.

If I recall, Linda Lovelace's pimp turned around and tried to sue her for her book that criticized him as a batterer who raped her and forced her into pornography.

There's been a long debate on this, but an accessible first start for guys might be stuff written by Robert Jensen, a professor of journalism at UT Austin.

Also, Playboy and the regulated pornographers have a responsibility to out the monsters who make the other crap, but since the internet traffickers basically are already scum mafia gangland types who'd rape and torture and even kill so they and others can get off, they're not going to be amenable to persuasion. Plus, they're already breaking laws, so new laws aren't going to matter much to them. We need to prosecute the current offenders.

Dworkin and MacKinnon wanted to hit the pornographers in their pocketbooks, and empower their former victims to be the ones bringing cases against them in civil court rather than the state do it on their behalf.

Hope this helps, and I'm glad you're taking the issue of pornography seriously enough to visit this forum to learn more about it. That's more than many people do.

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Response to zazen (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:42 PM

15. Here is my problem with that.

Why would those laws only be extended to rape? If someone produces something that "inspires" someone to commit a violent crime should they be held liable? If an author depicts a way of murdering someone in a novel and a reader kills someone in that manner, are they then liable for that murder?

It seems to me like you would end up with is a society where it is illegal to depict anything illegal.

If it is good for rape, why isn't it good for murder?

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Response to Kurska (Reply #15)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:47 PM

17. this is really not the forum for you if you are going to sugar coat and play cutsie with rape, ect..

just not gonna go over well.

even in your innocence.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:50 PM

19. Rape is a terrible horrible crime and anyone who rapes anyone should go to jail for a very long time

That doesn't mean I believe you should be able to sue someone for "inspiring" a rape any more than you should be able to sue someone for "inspiring" a murder. A content producer should never be held responsible for what people who consume their content do, because they can't control it.

If someone watched the Silence of the Lambs and then chopped up and ate their neighbours, should the victim's family be able to sue Thomas Harris?

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Response to Kurska (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:25 PM

33. my point is, that you so casually and without a hell of a lot of consideration discuss rape as if

it is no more significant when it comes to entertainment for a man to jack off to, is a little too frivolous for this forum. i am telling you, we really do not want to hear how being entertained by rape to get off on has no consequence and even if it does.... meh.

are you getting it?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:41 PM

37. All I said is pornography shouldn't be illegal and that you shouldn't be able to sue people for

"inspiring" crimes of any kind by creating fiction. So unless I did all that by simply disagreeing with you then I don't know where you got a word of that from.

You're free to quote me and prove me wrong.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:27 PM

46. and do you KNOW those rapes are fiction. cause i watched a rape for almost 7 minutes of a girl

being grabbed on the side of the road. 7 minutes of the males fuzzed out so they could not be identified. the pain and the fear and the disgust of the girl being raped for fuckin 7 minutes on facebook. not a fuckin piece of evidence that the girl was not being raped for a fuckin 7 minutes as she curled into a ball after two men raped her repeatedly and another man filmed her making sure their ugly ass face never made it onto the camera, so you fuckin men could fuckin get off.

and what was fuckin said by duers.....

oh

simulation rape

wasnt real.

so fuck that fuckin fiction. no one knows if we watched a girl get raped or if it was MERE entertainment. but, we dismissed it so very fuckin easily as JUST entertainment.

now... do you GET YET why we do not want to hear this cutsey little sugar coating of your fuckin rape enter FUCKIN tainment.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:57 PM

49. My rape entertainment? I don't look at rape porn.

Any rape anywhere should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'd be perfectly fine with a law that bans videos of rapes if the victim or their family (if the victim isn't able to) requests it.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #49)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:09 AM

51. what a fuckin ridiculous post. pretty well escalated my disgust level that much more. nt

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #51)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:14 AM

53. Help me understand what is disgusting you.

Because I'm really not getting it.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #53)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:28 AM

56. if this was a rape, they do not know who the rapist are. they do not know who the victim is

the victim does not know it is on facebook. the relatives do not know. the cops may??? see it but do not know if it is real.

now.... i tell you about a horrific 7 minutes that i watched. that is to ENTERTAIN men. so they can get off. a disgusting 7 minutes. and how people on du dismissed it as fake, without a clue. how easily it is to shrug rape off.

if this is rape, nothing will happen. and all the people that watched were voyeurs to a girls rape.

that is it

that is all it amounts to. that is as far as it goes.

what does it say about us as people?

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Response to Kurska (Reply #53)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:54 AM

58. ten minutes of your time.

read this.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

it isnt too long.

and then watch this.



tell me what you feel... now. after reading the article and watching this clip.

this is the legit industry. this is the one that people want us to wrap up in a "pretty woman" little bow, all nice and fun and right.

but, how do you feel? watching and reading this.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:33 AM

59. I don't understand why this subject is so easy to dismiss... maybe this explains it...

People routinely assume that pornography is such a difficult and divisive issue because itís about sex. I think thatís wrong. This culture struggles unsuccessfully with pornography because it is about menís cruelty to women, and the pleasure men sometimes take in that cruelty. And that is much more difficult for people -- men and women -- to face.


So often, people want to pretend the nasty stuff is the exception, or worse, claim that this is a fact, because there aren't any 'peer-reviewed scientific studies' proving how hateful and ugly so much porn is.

God forbid anyone take a look for themselves. Much easier to choose to believe the porn enthusiasts and apologists, and not have to see it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #59)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:45 AM

60. i got mad last night. lol. people do not let it sink in. even if the words are right there

they will not allow it to sink in. think beyond the shallowest of answers. they do not allow themselves to feel the experience.

and yes

it is because of just what you say.


about menís cruelty to women, and the pleasure men sometimes take in that cruelty.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #59)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:46 PM

76. I cruise porn occasionally


Trigger alert as I'm going to get a little graphic

A very few examples;
----------------------------------------------

(Which is why I feel I have a valid opinion, I suppose. So much of it is about power one individual over another or a group of individuals over another)Some of it looks so painful I wonder who could possibly find it stimulating and I'm NOT talking about SMBD;

Have groups of men ejaculate on your face? What's up with that?

Multiple sites for "teen sluts" or "horny teens" really?

Sex toys in every orifice? While being called a slut?

Entire sites devoted to rape?

Incest sites?

Then there is the racism. And there is NO other word for it. "See white slut get crammed with huge back C****". How is that acceptable, even to a porn apologist?

"Asian School girl gets gang raped on a bus" W.T.F.??

Then there are the stories. Some so-called erotica actually has "peds" in its tags ( like MMF, orgy, anal, lesbian) yes "Peds" means pedophilia.


When I say I don't find pornography erotic I mean it. I am by no means sexually repressed, quite heathy in that regard thank you.

I do know what I've listed above is NOT heathy, or even sexy. It's also typical.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #76)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:54 PM

77. Yep, same here.

I like to know what I'm talking about.

I saw the '18 and Abused' site linked from some other site.

Tellingly, Googling 18 and Abused nets a cornucopia of hateful violent porn sites, but I didn't find any actual abuse treatment or outreach links.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:12 PM

63. I Read it and I'm disgusted.

But I was already fully aware there is terrible pornography out there with a terrible message. There are also terrible books out there with equally terrible messages. There are political manifestos that call for the murder of entire races and some of them have had dire effects on people including my own (I'm jewish). Even the most ugly and disgusting protected speech is still protected speech. The rights that allow them to publish their filth are the same rights that keep minority voices of all kinds from being utterly squashed

And pornography is protected speech. I do not support legislation designed to curtail protected speech either through direct (outright bans) or secondary ways (Legislation that would result in pornographers being sued out of existence, which is a de facto ban).

I'm sorry if that is an unsatisfactory answer, but that is the position I hold. I can be disgusted by words but still say a person has an unabridgeable right to speak them. Crimes that are committed in the creation of pornography should be punished to the fullest extent of the laws, but the crime is the crimes themselves not the porn.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #63)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:20 PM

64. 87% of the heterosexual porn is about demeaning, submissive. but, i am asking you to take yourself

away from the legality of it and freedom of speech argument since we have already established not a single person on du is advocating making porn illegal.

i asked, after reading that article of what is done to women, and after watching the video of what was done to the woman..... what did you FEEL.

the thing. my 14 yr old nephew was caught looking at porn. had found a site and been using the site about 4 months. in conversation after the fact, he said he was glad he was caught. he hated it. he hated how it made him feel. he hated that even though he said he would look at it no more, to himself, he found himself going to the site over and over. he said, that it made him sick afterward. that he felt like crap looking at these women and young girls, and what the whole feel of it was.

he was glad he was caught. he was glad when there were parental restrictions. he was glad that it was no longer a part of his life and he didnt feel the compulsion to go to it anymore.

he probably had a very good life lesson that will swerve him well, because he understands the unhealthy pull he was feeling.

why is a boy able to express how he felt with the experience, but grown adults refuse to put themselves in another shoes and feel ....

anyway. this is not the healthiest of subjects for me. i think i am about done with it.

but, if you felt anything even comparable to what women feel, when we read about the degradation these women experience, you will have a LITTLE of a clue what our issue is.

it isnt legality

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #64)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:38 PM

65. I said I was disgusted.

But again, people have a unabridgeable right to consume as much disgusting content as they desire in the privacy of their own home and content producers have an equal right to produce it (provided they violated no laws of course).

In a debate like this the absolute worst thing a person can do is let their emotional side overcome their rational side. Sorry, my feelings about pornographers are inconsequential in the face of it's status of protect speech.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #63)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

66. Orgasm is a reward mechanism in the brain.

It is one of the strongest ones there is.

Associating violence against with women with that reward has consequences.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #66)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:02 PM

68. And research says that hate produces a high similar to cocaine.

Hate speech is still protected speech and so is pornography.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #68)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:08 PM

69. Do you think rape porn should be protected as free speech? nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #69)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:18 PM

70. It depends what you mean by that statement.

Should a victim of rape have the right to remove a video of that rape from the market. You're damn right they should.

Should all depictions of rape play (Yes this is horrible term, but that is what it is called don't shoot the messenger) for the purpose of sexually gratify a viewer be illegal to sell and distribute? Maybe, my gut says yes, but I also think that this could be considered protected speech like other forms of horrible pornography.

Should all fictional depictions of rape be illegal in all media? Even if the intent behind the depiction is clearly not for sexual purposes? I believe absolutely not. Rape in our society does happen and artists have a right to include it in their story, especially if the intent behind the inclusion is not sexual gratification.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #70)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:30 PM

72. We are talking about porn.

Images of violence against women created for the specific purpose of arousing someone to orgasm.

Since you think it should be legal I have nothing further to discuss with you.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #72)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:36 PM

73. Actually I said I wasn't sure.

Did you even read my post?

"Maybe, my gut says yes, but I also think that this could be considered protected speech like other forms of horrible pornography."

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Response to Kurska (Reply #73)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:40 PM

74. That's 1 maybe....

Then a yes

Then a rationalization for a yes.

Sorry, but I am really not interested in discussing this issue further with you.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #74)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:44 PM

75. No

It was a maybe, followed by gut saying that we should, followed by a counter argument to my gut that says it might be considered protected speech.

In the context of the question "Should we ban it" a yes would mean ban it, which was the one I was addressing. I know you asked if it should be legal, but in my mind I rephrased it while considering it. I'm sure you'd agree the essential meaning of the question remained the same.

Feel free to discontinue this conversation at your leisure, this is a free discussion board and you can respond or not respond to anyone you want to.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:02 PM

67. Excellent commentary!

Thank you for posting. Bookmarking it for future reference.


on edit: The other poster clearly did not read Jensen's commentary.

When I critique pornography, I often am told to lighten up; sex is just sex, people say, and I should stop trying to politicize pornography. But pornography obviously is political. Telling men stories about sex in which women are three holes and two hands, not people, is political. It offers men a politics of sex and gender. And that politics is patriarchal and reactionary.

As with any political issue, successful strategies of resistance to injustice and oppression must be collective. There cannot be personal solutions to political problems. If we avoid engaging political problems in public and hope to make the best of things in private, we fail. Pornographers know that, which is why they want to make sure no collective remedies for women (through legislation or the courts) are considered, let alone enacted. But they also would prefer that none of these issues even be discussed in public. In recent years, their strategies for cutting off that discussion have been remarkably successful. When we criticize pornography, we typically are told we are either sexually dysfunctional prudes who are scared of sex, or people who hate freedom, or both. That works to keep many people quiet. The pornographers desperately want to keep people from asking the simple question: What kind of society would turn the injury and degradation of some into sexual pleasure for others? What kind of people does that make us -- the men who learn to find pleasure this way, and the women who learn to accept it?


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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #67)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 03:28 PM

71. I never accused anyone of hating freedom. n/t

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #67)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 04:01 PM

80. What is really sad is when the many issues get treated like a big joke....

Oh sorry, no, the issues are just completely ignored... And its any objections to the $13 billion industry that are treated like a joke.

Shameful.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 01:21 AM

89. Wow. Did that shoot go wrong!


I feel really bad for her.

Except the video showed one shoot. Next question: is that representative of the industry?

I have to point out, that unlike what we're told about the industry, she was able to get up and walked off the set. I thought women were forced to making these videos, and that they had no real choice that they're too afraid to get up and leave.

I know of one other shoot that went like this, and I know about it because a former porn star told me. She told me like it was something that didn't happen every day, and she was pretty angry with the woman who walked off because it meant she didn't paid either. Neither did the males in the scene.

This is a woman who wasn't in the industry anymore and had no reason to downplay any negative stuff that went on.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:28 AM

90. It sounds unfortunately real.


That's not what's typical, and the fact that it was posted on Facebook, which doesn't allow that (but many times doesn't catch up to it), says it was atypical and it was put up for different purposes than most porn. To boast and to humiliate. You look at what's on any of the free porn sites and try to find out if that's really representative, it's not. Now, I know that's true because I'll admit to you, I look at those sites.

I could see why people hearing about that awful video on Facebook would try to disbelieve it. For one thing, it's so awful. Disbelief will kick in. For another thing, you could look at any one of dozens of free porn sites and see none of that. Guys who talk about porn are thinking about that, not some video by some criminals that's put up on a public family site to boast about their crimes to the world.

If you want to know the reason why I so disbelieve what's written about the sex industry here it's because I know a lot of women in the sex industry, and I'm friends with a few of them. None of them got started when they were twelve, which is what I've read here. None of them were trafficked. I know for a fact that what these journalists and social scientists write is bullshit, and I know they think sex workers are so low in status that reporters and academics don't feel any obligation to be truthful about them. Yes, if you score low enough on somebody's status scale, they will think nothing of lying to you or about you. Nobody fact-checks anything written about the sex industry, and it's a guaranteed sale.

Then, when we occasionally get a scientifically valid study, it disproves the popular tropes about the sex industry. Such as the recent one that found that porn stars were about as healthy psychologically as other women, and they weren't any more abused in childhood than the general population.

To make it clear, I can't comprehend getting any pleasure from a scene of rape pr coerced sex. Rough sex is something else. A lot of the porn now start out with interviews with the porn stars, which make it clear that the sex is consensual. They come off as flirtatious, not coerced.

But if all the rape porn were removed from the Internet tomorrow, I wouldn't know it because I don't see it on any of the porn sites. Not on pornhub, youporn, xnxx, xhamster . . . none of them. None of them have a rape category. (Though pornhub has a "rough sex" category).

About Jensen's article: I think his observations are more accurate than most articles, but his interpretation is way off.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #17)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:59 PM

23. "Innocence", my ass. n/t

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #23)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:26 PM

34. yup. nt

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Response to zazen (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 09:46 PM

16. all of what you said. thank you. nt

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Response to zazen (Reply #11)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:06 PM

27. Jensen is the guy

That immersed himself in pornography and wrote about it right? He was kinda horrified.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #27)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:29 PM

35. an excellent article. one of the first i read that truly enlightened me on the innocence of porn.

The only resistance is collective, and the pornographers want to squash it

When I critique pornography, I often am told to lighten up; sex is just sex, people say, and I should stop trying to politicize pornography. But pornography obviously is political. Telling men stories about sex in which women are three holes and two hands, not people, is political. It offers men a politics of sex and gender. And that politics is patriarchal and reactionary. As with any political issue, successful strategies of resistance to injustice and oppression must be collective. There cannot be personal solutions to political problems. If we avoid engaging political problems in public and hope to make the best of things in private, we fail. Pornographers know that, which is why they want to make sure no collective remedies for women (through legislation or the courts) are considered, let alone enacted. But they also would prefer that none of these issues even be discussed in public. In recent years, their strategies for cutting off that discussion have been remarkably successful. When we criticize pornography, we typically are told we are either sexually dysfunctional prudes who are scared of sex, or people who hate freedom, or both. That works to keep many people quiet. The pornographers desperately want to keep people from asking the simple question: What kind of society would turn the injury and degradation of some into sexual pleasure for others? What kind of people does that make us -- the men who learn to find pleasure this way, and the women who learn to accept it?

The pornographers want to label any collective discussion of the meaning of intimacy and sexuality as repression. They want to derail any talk about a sexual ethic. They, of course, have a sexual ethic: Anything goes. On the surface that seems to be freedom: Consenting adults should be free to choose. I agree they should. But in a society in which power is not equally distributed, ďanything goesĒ translates into ďanything goes for men, and some women and children will suffer for it.Ē Any society that claims to take freedom seriously must engage in a discussion about power, and take steps to equalize power. That means taking steps to end menís domination of women.

There are many controversial questions in the pornography debate: What is the nature of the relationship between sexually explicit media and behavior? Under what conditions can the consent of people involved in acts that may be detrimental to their own well-being be questioned? What harms of speech acts can trump free-speech concerns? But there should be nothing controversial about this: To criticize pornography is not repressive. To speak about what one knows and feels and dreams is, in fact, liberating. We are not free if we arenít free to talk about our desire for an egalitarian intimacy and sexuality that would reject pain and humiliation.

That is not prudishness or censorship. It is at attempt to claim the best parts of our common humanity -- love, caring, empathy, solidarity. To do that is not to limit anyone. It is to say that people matter more than the profits of pornographers and the pleasure of pornography consumers. It is to say, simply, that women count as much as men.


http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #35)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:47 PM

38. That's what gets me about 'the two (or more) consenting adults' argument

Why does so much porn involve what a 'consenting' adult would consider humiliation, degradation and pain?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #38)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 11:32 PM

47. i really am gonna get on

that report you had in the other thread. from the little i read in the subthread, it is exactly what i am seeing happening with all this. and why did you delete your Op. i was saving it for tomorrow.

i have been busy in a couple other places today.

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:04 PM

26. Can't be banned, not practically.

Can only be changed. Right now, if I look at porn sites I see too much what would pass for pedophilia. Pornography is misogynist, racist and occasionally dangerous; and as I said in another post, surprisingly non-erotic.

The practical solution is out of reach, because it need gestalt, a resolution of number of women's issues on the table, equal pay, proper child care, full reproductive rights, the end of rape culture, equal representation in government office, in positions of authority etc.--- you get the picture.
The problem with porn is not videos of sexual acts, it's that those act become representative of what women are.

How do we change it? One mind at a time. One image at a time. Pornography steals sexual imagination and replaces it with false imagery, the fullness and intenseness of the erotic gets lost in spoon feed corporate sex. Education will help. Women and male allies speaking out. If someone is a pornography consumer, demand erotic, reciprocal images rather than the dominance plays we see today. Know the difference between participating in SMBD, and watching it vicariously ( I'm not saying don't watch it, I'm saying educate oneself) refuse to watch depictions of rape. Refuse to watch anything that indicates the under-aged (that would take out a whole lot of porn right there) refuse to watch racist porn. The consumer really has the power to change the dynamic of pornagraphy, but the consumer has been indoctrinated in images of one type of another since birth.



there is NO getting away from the pornification of women



As I also said in another post, what's erotic is subjective. Historically, women's sexuality has been degraded or repressed. And we are talking millennia. We're not going to fix the problems of pornography quickly.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:11 PM

28. Very well spoken.

If you want to change the porn you need to change the society.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:21 PM

31. 'there is NO getting away from the pornification of women"

I say that is absolute bullshit.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:41 PM

36. How so?

It's everywhere. It was at the Olympic Games. The post I had to self delete because it wouldn't link properly was a great piece on the pornification of women in politics. Its in in what we consider our greatest literature ( I despise Hemingway). It's ingrained in our media. Music. Art.

It's not that we don't have strong voices speaking out against it, trying to change it, but the fact that its everywhere we look. We become numb, some of us, we accept it as normal.

Everywhere.

I walk out the door to work, it's there in the strip club close to the stadium we drive past on my way to work. The small barista stands where half naked women serve breasts and coffee. I have sick patients who are comforted when someone takes the time to shave their legs.

I'm not saying don't fight, or it can't be changed, I'm saying that is everywhere you look.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #36)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:53 PM

41. Ah, ok, sorry... I thought that implied that it couldn't he changd....

No, there is no way to get away from it, living in todays society ... But in time we can, provided we destroy the patriarchy.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #41)

Mon Nov 26, 2012, 10:58 PM

42. Yup

From the ground up and then salt the earth so it doesn't grow back

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Response to Kurska (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:17 PM

61. Is the corollary also true...?

"just because you ban something doesn't mean it stops to exist..."

All ethical considerations aside, is the corollary also true: Just because a thing exists is a reason to allow it?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #61)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 12:19 PM

62. .



just cause.

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