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Jarqui

(10,122 posts)
3. Where in the world is healthcare for profit is happening?
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:06 AM
Nov 2015


US life expectancy is about 34th so the money spent isn't doing very well in terms of keeping Americans alive relative to what others are spending.

Hillary's tax cuts to pay for those steep costs aren't going to change that chart materially.

Sanders single payer approach could bring the costs down closer to Canada - certainly drop them significantly.

Roughly 138 million US jobs provide healthcare for 318 million Americans = 1 job covers 2.3 people in healthcare.

If each working person effectively paid (in taxes in a single payer system) what Canadians pay, that would save them $8,050 per year (2.3 x $3,500 difference between US & Canada). And they don't have to pay taxes on that like some may on their health care expenses (paid with after tax dollars) - so for many, it would be even higher savings. And there's no deductible with single payer either = more savings. Each US bread winner, on average, could save $8,000-10,000 per year and reduce the effective income inequality because they'd have significantly more disposable income ... which would boost the economy and add jobs!!

As well, the net cost to employ these people would be less over time for the companies - so companies would benefit on their bottom line. The benefit of reduce healthcare costs would "trickle up".

And since the cost per employee is cheaper, the US could hang onto or recover more jobs.

Hillary is going to do effectively what Wall Street and the Republicans she's pandering to tell her to do and Wall Street/the Republicans don't embrace single payer. Bernie is free of those obligations and can work to make single payer a reality. Of course, like Obama needed, Bernie will require the House and Senate under Dem control to get anything done. So it's up to you.

One other perk: 29 million Americans still don't have healthcare (down from 45 million due to Obamacare). About 0.1% of those 29 million Americans die annually because they don't have health care. So single payer would save the lives of about 29,000 Americans (nearly ten 9/11s) each year. Sanders is concerned with that. The rest of Washington?

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
5. Thanks, the Dems have buried the HC issue and supported the for profit system...
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:17 AM
Nov 2015

we need to support the war effort, while we disregard the homeless vets and cannot provide the care they need.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
4. We are a service industry country and heathcare is now 18% of our GDP
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:16 AM
Nov 2015

(Gross Domestic Product) So Bernie wants to cause massive unemployment while simultaneously raising everybody's FICA taxes from 8% to 18%.

How the fuck does that work? Bernie does not understand a thing about economics. Not a blessed thing.

When Hillary and Bill first proposed universal healthcare (not even single payer) healthcare was 9% of our GDP. We are well past the tipping point to jump to that now. The best we can do is offer a public option on the ACA exchange.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
6. Do you pause to ask why we spend so much more on HC and still have poorer outcomes?
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:45 AM
Nov 2015

Why assume that number needs to remain static, should we look at other HC systems to find a balance and the best outcomes?

I know there is a trade off, my daughter's salary would not be where it is now. Several years ago she was in med school when this debate began and when Obama barred the SP activists from the HC debate.

A couple of years later my husband was diagnosed with MDS which led to acute myelogenous leukemia. I have seen the HC system from both sides, of course wanting the best care and also understanding the commitment and perseverance that it takes to provide care.

We can find a balance as so many other countries have done, unfortunately we have once again turned a blind eye to 'other solutions' as we seek to protect the for profit centers.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
8. Yes, in fact I do
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:56 AM
Nov 2015

Because I have spent 25 years of my career doing consulting on the subject.

But the reality is we can't just jump to single payer, which is why Bernie's plan has zero co-sponsors in congress where it has languished for years. The economics of it are simply not feasible.

The ACA is bending the cost curve as it was designed to do, but it is still very painful for the healthcare industry, and patients who are experiencing higher deductibles and out of pocket costs as a result. Pretty apparent to those of us paying attention.

The next viable step is a public option on the ACA exchange, but it will take the pain of the initial ACA plan to force congress to do that (once they get over the idea that the ACA is here to stay).

Single payer in one giant step is simply not feasible. Couldn't even do it in Vermont, if you noticed.

Bernie lives in a pie in the sky world that simply ignores political and economic feasibility. He is a tilt at windmills kind of guy, which is precisely why he has so few accomplishments over 25 years in congress. It makes him feel righteous, I suppose, but it is of little use to help actual people.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
9. Nobody said this would happen overnight, there is no 'jump' and among the Dems there has not ...
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:32 AM
Nov 2015

been discussion of other HC systems.

You might think the ACA is bending the curve, but co-ops are leaving the exchanges and United Health Care is rethinking their position. Our premiums will increase $200 per month under our United HC plan beginning in January. How is that bending the curve for consumers?

This might seem like an abstract discussion to you, but we have been living this HC nightmare for the past six plus years.

I'll leave you to make jokes about certain candidates, trust me this is NO joking matter, it is literally a matter of life or death.





 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
10. Bernie thinks it should
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:37 AM
Nov 2015

The ACA IS the incremental step he refuses to acknowledge. And if he was the kind of politician that valued getting stuff done instead of hearing his own rhetoric he would be proposing the next incremental step like Hillary is doing instead of unrealistic crap that has no chance of passing.

He's lying to you. Get a clue.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
12. Get a clue $250K is Not middle class ...
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:47 AM
Nov 2015

sorry you have been brain washed.

Invading Iraq and displacing millions of people will bring democracy to a country! Not all of those orphans remain silent, what a mess she has contributed to and the back lash we are now seeing.

She is lying to you, get a clue!



bobbobbins01

(1,681 posts)
7. Please explain who would be laid off.
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:49 AM
Nov 2015

Hospitals would still be functioning, doctors and nurses would all still work...the only people who would take a hit are those working in the insurance industry. I'm willing to accept that loss, especially since even though they'd be unemployed, at least they'd have healthcare while they transitioned to a new job.

 

MaggieD

(7,393 posts)
11. Noble of you to "accept" massive unemployment for others
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:40 AM
Nov 2015

While simultaneously accepting more than doubling FICA taxes. LOL!

And no, I'm not going to spend my time explaining basic healthcare economics to someone who has no actual intention of listening.

bobbobbins01

(1,681 posts)
13. What makes you think I won't listen?
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:14 AM
Nov 2015

But to your point about nobility. Yes, I'm willing to sacrifice the jobs of a few insurance salesmen(its not massive as you claim, since the healthcare industry itself would remain very similar to how it is now. And those laid off could be redirected into the new healthcare system, because I'm sure there will be new but different jobs created) for the lives of those without any health coverage.
And I hope you realize the hypocrisy of calling out sacrificing jobs for lives while supporting a candidate who just announced she would increase airstrikes and wants an authorization to use military force.

And you're forgetting that any extra ta if it even comes to that) would be absorbed by a raise in the minimum wage for some, and offset by the lack of insurance costs for others. Since obamacare makes paying for coverage mandatory, everyone is going to be paying anyway, so I wouldn't mind hearing why the tax is worse than what is currently in place.

I promise, I'll listen to any valid points you have...but it sounds like you're shutting things down because there might not be any real points to make. Please prove me wrong.

leftofcool

(19,460 posts)
15. You do realize that Blue Cross employees over 400K people in this country, right?
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:26 AM
Nov 2015

It isn't just a few insurance salesmen.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
14. Are you willing to say doctors cannot make more than $90K per year, like Germany does?
Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:20 AM
Nov 2015

We have this dogma that greedy insurance companies' profits are what makes us pay more than Europe, but it's just not the case. Even government-run Medicare pays much, much more than European health systems do. Because our providers make a lot, lot more than European providers.

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