Clinton Sheds Progressive Façade with Bold Rightward Lurch

[RiverLover]

Clinton Sheds Progressive Façade with Bold Rightward Lurch
11/19/2015
by Sarah Lazare
Common Dreams


"I don't take a backseat to anyone when it comes to progressive experience and progressive commitment," former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said at the Democratic debate in October. (Joe Raedle/Getty Images)

From her call for a major air and ground war against ISIS to her attack on single-payer, observers note that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is rapidly shedding her "progressive" façade as she grows increasingly confident she has the Democratic nomination locked down (an assumption which, evidence shows, is debatable).

This trend comes despite her declaration during the first Democratic debate in October, after being pressed by the CNN moderator: "I don't take a backseat to anyone when it comes to progressive experience and progressive commitment."

Growing more hawkish by the day

In case there was any doubt, Clinton's much-anticipated foreign policy speech on Thursday makes it clear she plans to run on her hawkish credentials.

Speaking at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, Clinton called for a "new phase" in the fight against the Islamic State (referred to as ISIS or IS), including a major intensification in a bombing campaign; "ground forces actually taking back more territory;" an "intelligence surge;" and no-fly zones over Syria. "Our goal is not to deter or contain ISIS, but to defeat and destroy ISIS," she said, in an implicit criticism of President Barack Obama as being too tepid on military intervention—and a signal that she intends to tack far to his right.

Since working under Obama's White House—hardly the image of restraint—that's exactly what Clinton has been doing. As Bob and Barbara Dreyfuss recently pointed out last year, Clinton used her secretary of state role to consistently advocate escalation of military force, from Afghanistan to Libya to Syria, making her the pro-war wing of the Obama administration.

Clinton has only moved further in the militarist direction after exiting the administration, expressing skepticism of the nuclear deal between world powers and Iran, escalating her rhetoric towards Russia, and proclaiming an "unbreakable bond" with the widely-reviled Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Clinton has stated publicly that she believes that her vote in favor of the 2003 invasion of Iraq was wrong and has been pressed on this issue during the campaign, including during Saturday's Democratic debate, where she admitted: "I don't think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of Iraq led to the massive level of instability we are seeing right now."

But as many others have pointed out, in the years since Clinton cast her vote in favor of the Iraq War, she appears to have learned nothing. "If Hillary Clinton wins her party's nomination," Vox's Zack Beauchamp warned in April, "she'll be the most hawkish Democratic nominee since the Iraq War began."......

........Speaking in Dallas on Tuesday, Clinton launched an unbridled attack on Bernie Sanders' plan for a single-payer, publicly-funded, universal healthcare program. "I don’t see how you can be serious about raising working and middle class families' incomes if you also want to slap new taxes on them—no matter what the taxes will pay for," she said.

Her statements were followed up by those of top Clinton aides speaking to media outlets. "If you are truly concerned about raising incomes for middle-class families, the last thing you should do is cut their take-home pay right off the bat by raising their taxes," spokesperson Brian Fallon told Politico.

The push captured the ire of single-payer advocates, including National Nurses United. "Any politician that refuses to finance guaranteed healthcare has abandoned my patients, and I will never abandon my patients," said NNU Co-President Jean Ross, RN.

According to Slate staff writer Jim Newell, Clinton is "essentially red-baiting about Bernie Sanders’ Wacky Taxes in her dismissal of a policy that, on paper, draws plenty of support among Democratic voters."

Newell argued that Clinton, in fact, is going further than many in her own party by "appropriating one of the right’s central talking points against government-funded universal health insurance: Think of the taxes!

She’s not just saying that a single-payer system is a political nonstarter with conservatives. She’s reciting the actual conservative talking point that would make a single-payer system a political nonstarter."...........

..........Also on Saturday, Clinton—despite her vows to tackle Wall Street—reiterated her opposition to the Glass Steagall Act, which was repealed by her husband in 1999 and would break up big banks by splitting investment and commercial banking. Her position, in fact, is popular with Wall Street, but increasingly unpopular with those demanding economic equality and accountability for the financial institutions behind the 2008 financial crisis.

"The big six banks in this country have 43 percent more deposits, 81 percent more assets and three times the amount of cash they had before the financial crisis," author and Demos fellow Nomi Prins said last month. "A major reason America has such an inequality problem is that it has a highly concentrated, establishment-supported casino banking system that disperses capital toward more risky endeavors than infrastructure building and small and mid-size business support."

Meanwhile, Walmart workers on Wednesday took their demands for $15 an hour to the Brooklyn headquarters of Clinton, who refused their request for all candidates to address their demands at last week's debates...........

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/11/19/clinton-sheds-progressive-facade-bold-rightward-lurch

(This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License. Bold for emphasis is my own)

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. She can't get the Progressive vote, so

she's decided to go for the insane, RIGHT WING WARMONGER vote. That's fitting.
Except the GOP/TEABAGGERS hate her with a burning passion - good luck with that strategy!

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

[RiverLover]

3. No kidding.

I can't imagine a more screwed up presidential election.

Idiocracy is here.

[in_cog_ni_to]

156. Exactly.

Warmongering during the Primary? That's just insane. I think her internal polling shows she doesn't have the Progressive vote, so she's decided to go for the warmongering RW vote instead. Which is absolutely crazy logic since they HAAAAAATE her.

[sibelian]

34. Why would ANY right leaning US citizen vote for her when they can just have a republican?

Politically motivated republicans can't STAND her.

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. Exactly.

It's a really dumb strategy! Last I heard, the true Liberals /Progressives are anti-war, so she doesn't have those votes. Third Way/NeoLiberals and the warmongering neocons will vote for her and that's it. IOW, the 1%.

[sibelian]

89. her platform covers a TINY proportion of the Republican base... TINY.

She's trying too hard to be all things to all people.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

103. You got that right...Hillary is becoming a parody of herself.

Go Bernie!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Volaris]

193. Perhaps she's anticipating widespread disgust with GOP candidates

among their own voter base by election day??
None of the Real Crazies really WANT to vote for another Bush or Kasich, and the Wall Street Class (the Party Establishment) over there know full well that Trump or Cruz cannot be the Party standard-bearer, so....

But honestly, if she trying to build 51% out the people pissed off about a series of Split Decisions, that seems like a wholly unnecessary amount of pandering she's going to have to do just to put her hand on that Bible..

Don't get me wrong, I WILL support the Democratic Nominee for President. But I don't have to approve of how it gets done, and she isn't our nominee YET.

Peace and Solidarity, fellow Democrats=)

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

209. "Last I heard, the true Liberals /Progressives are anti-war, so she doesn't have those votes."

Right, except all the women that will vote for her because she has a vagina.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. Thank you!

I don't know what she's thinking! And doing this during the Primary? I think she wants to lose because Teabaggers/GOP aren't voting for a Clinton.

[sibelian]

160. It's a really dangerous strategy - SHE COULD LOSE relying on them.

They watch her far more closely than we do and Republicans, in my experience, are deeply suspicious of anything they regard as "inauthenticity".

Moderates and independents actually make up the bulk of the US electorate, but they aren't swayed by rhetoric, she doesn't mean anything to them. If she's looking for people from that cloud of disinterested participants she needs to be very careful. One good strike from the right could dislodge her completely.

[Aerows]

181. Shhh!

She's busy triangulating on everybody's ass.

Be very quiet, she's hunting rabids.

[SammyWinstonJack]

198. Ha! She's hunting rabids....

[Aerows]

202. Figured someone would get that one

[Scootaloo]

228. That's been the ongoing problem for the party for years now

We keep offering our most conservative politicians, and then our party heads complain that the left doesn't show up, and act confused that the right doesn't jump for them.

The only organization that is more consistently out-of-touch with reality than the DNC is PETA... and only by a little.

[dogknob]

264. Because the smart ones know that controlling Congress through gerrymandering and gridlock...

... is the way to control the country.

That and owning the MSM.

Let the people take out their frustration on a Dem President who can't do anything real with a recalcitrant Congress.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. Declaring a 'no-fly zone' over Syria would place the U.S. on a collision

course with a nuclear-armed Russian Federation. (Think Cuban Missile Crisis at supersonic speeds, rather than the relatively slow nautical speeds). Wonder whether HRC has been listening to those crazed Russo-phobes Brzezinski, Nuland and Kagan.

[Oilwellian]

132. Considering the nest of vipers she was speaking to...

I'd say she's been listening to them quite a bit. She sounds just like them.

[CoffeeCat]

233. Are they going to rig the voting machines...

...for her as well? Because that's what it would take to elect her if she goes full neocon.

The Democratic base will not support her. Forget about the Republicans. They despise her. All of the warmongering fools on the Republican side are Fox News viewing, conservative crazies. They'd never vote for her. Why would they, when their own Republican nominee will be a warmonger and agree with them on being anti-choice, anti-gay, and pro-NRA?

I don't think independents will be attracted by a warmongering stance. Many were attracted to Obama because of his anti-war views and "no" vote on the Iraq war. Being a war hawk is only attractive to a certain political animal--and those nut jobs are on the right. Being a neocon isn't exactly bait for the Independents and moderates.

She's narrowing her potential supporters with these hawkish views.

So strange.

[in_cog_ni_to]

157. OMG...a nightmare waiting to happen. WWIII, without a doubt. n/t

[HereSince1628]

71. Doesn't the self-destruction in the R's make more moderate conservative R's in play?

It really often seems that Trump is mostly out to make a republican win impossible.

Triangulation is all about exploiting opportunity.

The question of whether she's really corralled the democratic left remains unanswered until primaries and caucuses provide meaningful results.

[jeff47]

113. It hasn't in any election before. No reason to think it suddenly will this time.

Only 11% of the electorate is actually willing to vote for either party.

40% of the electorate will vote for "their" party or they will stay home. This is where you will find those disaffected Republicans.

[in_cog_ni_to]

158. "Doesn't the self-destruction in the R's make more moderate conservative R's in play?"

NOT for a Clinton, it doesn't. They are hated with a burning passion by the GOP/TEABAGGERS. Even her warmongering isn't going to bring them to her - no way in hell. The Benghazi! Hearings, email/server investigations are just a small taste of things to come. There's already an investigation into the Clinton Foundation's dodgy bookkeeping practices. They aren't going to stop there. The GOP hate the Clintons and want to run them out if town.

[HereSince1628]

174. Yes, but the tea-party just wants to destroy the federal gov't.

The republican base -isn't- all tea-jahadists. Considering how intensely radical the republican primary has become, there doesn't seem to be a home for moderate, dare I say, sensible republicans who still want government.

The historic pattern of presidential pursuit is to run to your own party's base to win the nomination and then run toward the middle during the GE hoping to peel off the more moderate voters in the opposing party.

Seems like any moderate r's would already be feeling like they don't have a pick on their side. And HRC seems ready to abandon the left as her campaign thinks they've got a lock on it. In more ways than one.

[jwirr]

208. But aren't you talking DLC ideas in your post?

That is not a very old pattern - started in the 90s by the Clinton campaign. And has not proved itself very successful. The black voter won it for President Obama but since then we have lost the House, the Senate and many Governor's seats.

[HereSince1628]

211. My recollection of it is it is rather older than that

I remember Dukakis doing it and the DLC pretty much abhorred Dukakis and flogged him to make the DLC look like dem knights in shining armor.

But even if it did begin in the mid-90s that's 20 years and 6 campaigns ago. When I was at aTm doing something once was a -pattern- and doing it twice was a -tradition-.

[jwirr]

213. Created in 1985 by Al From and used by Bill Clinton in his

first campaign. So you might be right that they gave it a run earlier. They lost then to.

[CoffeeCat]

234. I'm not buying the notion...

...that Hillary believes she's got a lock on the left in the Dem party, as you said.

Bernie Sanders is polling at 31 percent in Iowa. This is the state where the campaigns are the most active. Ads are running, events are happening.

Sanders is behind Clinton by 20: Obama was behind Clinton by 15, at this point in the 2008 Primary.

This looks like a redux of 2008, with the Left abandoning her today (as they did in 2008). It appears that she's accepting that the progressives will support Sanders so she's abandoning even trying to get their votes. So she's running for the center now.

She knows VERY WELL from 2008, that trying to Run left is not a winning formula for her campaign. She lost the 08 nomination with that strategy.

It appears, to me anyway, that she is abandoning the left.

I don't know though. I can't imagine that this would be successful!

This is weird!

[MisterP]

129. they go after GOP votes differently: Clinton mimics Pub positions,

Sanders explains how to tell if a policy's hurting you and how to stop supporting those policies with your vote

same thing at Bob Jones: everyone else who's ever spoken there just doughfaced themselves onto the "Values Voters," Sanders lays out how to examine whether one's truly acting Christian and adds some economic considerations to US religious expression; many were shocked that they weren't being pandered to for the first time in decades, that there WAS an honest pol who didn't just repeat everything that the audience believed back at them, but gives HIS positions and puts all the positions in a bigger context--he brought theology to the table

[AgingAmerican]

142. The GOP won't vote for her

nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

159. I much prefer Bernie's way!

We really need him now.

[AlbertCat]

192. RIGHT WING WARMONGER

I don't even think she's genuinely passionate about this. I think it's opportunism because of the recent attacks and so she's using the fear card just like a Repug would.

If everything were peaceful, she'd be in tie-dye and holding up two fingers.


She seems more interested in herself than the country. THAT'S very GOP!


Can you imagine if there were more debates ...when people wanted to watch them?

[orpupilofnature57]

2. Morphing has always been her forte

[daleanime]

4. Actually I'm very surprised, I thought for sure she would wait....

until after the nomination, win or lose, to sprint back to the right.

[RiverLover]

7. I thought the same.

Guess she's feeling extremely confident.

She does seem to be the most powerful person in DC these days. Pity she's a conservative. How great for our country if she was actually progressive.

[winter is coming]

30. Either that, or she's getting pushback from her donors. n/t

[Enthusiast]

41. Most of those high dollar donors in particular exist in a very tight bubble.

Last edited Fri Nov 20, 2015, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

[CoffeeCat]

230. and those donors know how the game is played...

...her corporate donors (especially the defense contractors) know that she has to run to the left to be competitive in the primary.

And her corporate donors know, as do the Progressives in our party, that talk is cheap and meaningless--and that she doesn't mean a word of it.

So...I also wonder why she is doing this.

I'm trying to keep it simple and apply Occam's Razor...I got nothing.

I'm very curious about this.

[Enthusiast]

240. I got nothing too. Beware, CoffeeCat,

curiosity killed the cat. I kid.

[CoffeeCat]

247. Luckily, I have...

...nine lives.

But then again, I die every day (several times actually) the more I follow Hillary Clinton trumpeting her neocon ways.

[INdemo]

26. Hillary could run on the Republican ticket and win

the Republican nomination.

[daleanime]

35. I suggested that at the start of the nomination process....

it would be a nice change to face off against a sane republican.

[Herman4747]

131. Hey, I wouldn't go that far...

...she's not at that level of craziness.

[INdemo]

139. she could beat the crazies

[cprise]

178. Her GOP tactics: Lying about who gets tax increases/breaks

When Republicans want to protect their rich donors from progressive taxation (more taxes on the rich) they tell the public that low-and-middle income workers will have their taxes increased.

[arcane1]

151. That was before Paris gave her a tragedy to exploit n/t

[jwirr]

210. The weathervane is leading the way. People are afraid - she

is going to use that.

[tecelote]

5. A Democrat voting for Hillary is what we all say about Republican voters...

A vote for Hillary is a vote against your own self interest.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. And a vote to destroy more brown lives globally.

Cause they're not 'real people' just 'collateral damage' in the 'war on Terra!'

[Buzz Clik]

61. Did you listen to Sanders's speech about ISIS? It wasn't exactly pacifistic.

You need to reel in your hysteria a bit.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. Doesn't that depend on what the alternative is? ...

While I could argue that your statement might be true for one's Democratic primary vote; but, it is patently false, if she should be the Democratic nominee in the G/E.

In fact, I would argue that any non-vote for HRC in the G/E is a vote against your own self-interest.

Would you agree?

[peacebird]

9. Nope. That's why we have to get Bernie the nomination.

Because Hillary is not the change we need.

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. While I can understand why you think ...

That's why we have to get Bernie the nomination.

And, while this:

Because Hillary is not the change we need.

Is debate ... I do not understand the myopia that allows one to even consider a non-vote for HRC in the G/E, should she be the Democratic nominee.

[peacebird]

14. Because if we are going to spend ever more on war, & less on Americans the pres may as well be R

"We came, we saw, he died" will never get my vote.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. Okay. You just go with that silly sentiment ...

while the rest of the electorate, and hopefully, DU can understand that a HRC presidency will look very different, and have very different effects, than a presidency of ANY of the republican candidates.

[peacebird]

54. Hopefully people will realize Bernie is by far the better person for the job, &give him the nom!

[1StrongBlackMan]

109. And if people come to a different conclusion? ...

Do you NOT have a choice to make about the NEW alternatives that present, i.e., HRC (or O'Malley) vs. whomever the republicans advance?

[peacebird]

175. Yes. I choose Bernie.

As stated before, many times, I will vote for Bernie.

I will never vote for "we came, we saw, he died"

[1StrongBlackMan]

179. You are willing to waste your vote by writing in Bernie on the G/E ballot? Okay! ...

It's your vote to do what you will with.

But after the primaries, and before posting comments regarding the G/E, I would strong recommend reading the ToS.

[peacebird]

189. As I have already stated in the past. If Hillary gets the Nom then the DLC/thirdwayers have won

at which point I will change my party affiliation to independent and leave DU as the party will have irrevocably left me.

I have been a solid Dem voter and worker for 40 years. I will have absolutely NO regrets writing Bernie in for the general.

[CoffeeCat]

250. I think whatever you decide is your business...

...and I often see Hillary supporters painting Bernie supporters into a corner--almost bullying them into the whole, "Oh, really? But will you vote for her during the general election?"

I think this is really manipulative. Frankly, it's none of their damn business.

I appreciate that you posted your plans. I'm not saying you did anything wrong.

Just pointing out that I think this is a way that some Hillary Clinton supporters bully others into eventually admitting that they'll be voting for her. A tactic which attempts to position her as the "inevitable one" who will eventually be the nominee. She isn't inevitable. She wasn't in 2008, as her campaign suggested, and she isn't in 2015.

It's an irrelevant question right now--because we're dealing with the primary. And again, no Bernie supporter should feel pressured to answer such a question. How a person votes is private.

[AlbertCat]

194. And if people come to a different conclusion? ...

Oh stop with this news of the future!

No one has to decide this now.

Stop pretending Sanders' supporters have a tough decision now. They don't.

I'll decide when the time comes who I'm gonna vote for in the general.... and it's none of your business.

[1StrongBlackMan]

241. OH stop acting like there aren't Bernie supporters that haven't said ...

they will not vote for HRC (and presumably O'Malley, since the language sometimes gets sloppy), should Bernie not be the Democratic nominee.

And, ...

I'll decide when the time comes who I'm gonna vote for in the general.... and it's none of your business.

Why are you takes my posts so personally? If it doesn't apply to you (And I've been, pretty specific as to whom I am posing the question to), then just ignore it!

I'm noticing a character trait here, among SOME Bernie supporters ...

[AlbertCat]

242. OH stop acting like there aren't Bernie supporters that haven't said ...

Oh stop acting like I said such a thing.

[1StrongBlackMan]

243. LOL ... Re-read the post you responded to ... Then, take a bow! n/t

[AlbertCat]

244. Re-read the post you responded to

"Stop pretending Sanders' supporters have a tough decision now. They don't. "

I'm not interested in predictions of the future.... nor loyalty oaths....


Go clutch your pearls and stop harassing voters.

[1StrongBlackMan]

246. Or you can just exercise a measure of self restraint ...

and stop working so hard to have yourself in the class of (non) voters of whom I am addressing.

[CoffeeCat]

252. And really is it your job to police a message board...

..."posting the question" to Bernie any supporter who directly say (or indirectly indicate) that they won't vote for Hillary in the general election?

Bottom line, how a person will vote--a year from now--is none of your business.

You shouldn't be "posting the question" to anyone, frankly.

I personally think it's a form of bullying.

[1StrongBlackMan]

256. LOL ... Except on the internet ...

No, it is not my job to police a message board. But, I don't see that as what I am doing. I really don't see a problem in questioning the wisdom of those that insist they will not vote for anyone other than Bernie in the G/E.

Bottom line, how a person will vote--a year from now--is none of your business.

While I don't think I will affect how someone will vote, it really is my business, since I will have to live with their decision.

You shouldn't be "posting the question" to anyone, frankly.

I personally think it's a form of bullying.

While I'm sorry you feel that way ... I really don't care; this is a discussion board. If you see me as a bully ...

[CoffeeCat]

259. It's equivalent of walking down the street...

...and insisting that your neighbors tell you how they will vote.

I'm just saying that it really is none of your business.

A person's vote is sacred.

If a person tells you, that's one thing. Loads of discussion can arise from that.

However, no one should be asking.

And I don't see you as a bully. I think the behavior (pushing people to reveal how they will vote) is bullying behavior.

[1StrongBlackMan]

261. No it's not! ...

The people I am addressing have already declared, loudly and frequently, that they will not vote for anyone other than Bernie in the G/E.

I'm not "pushing people to reveal how they will vote" ... I'm questioning the wisdom of their public statements.

[jack_krass]

221. For many of us...

It's too terrible to think about

For me at keasr, I take the attitude of "I'll deal with that if/when it happens" , and im hoping it doesnt (I'm an optimist)

[AlbertCat]

262. "I'll deal with that if/when it happens"

Bingo.

I don't see it as anything to worry about now. It's merely a "gotcha" at this point.

Mainly because you can just reverse the names and ask the same useless question.

[rhett o rick]

173. Clinton has made no effort to make us think she won't continue the status quo that has

seen the middle and working classes decimated to assure Goldman-Sachs and corporations make bigger and bigger profits.

How naive to think that the billionaires investing millions and hundreds of millions in her campaign, her foundation, and her personal wealth, don't want a return on their money. A big return. She does a bad job of pretending to care about the People first. Her first allegiance is to those that are buying her the presidency. We might see some social changes, but the wealth gap and the poverty rates are going to climb.

[1StrongBlackMan]

177. Beyond the primaries ...

should HRC gain the Democratic nomination, do you think she would be the better alternative than whomever the republicans advance?

[rhett o rick]

187. I see it as do or die for the 99% in the primary. We need to fight like there is no tomorrow

to fight off the corruption of big money dominating our government. The middle and working classes are falling farther and farther behind. I volunteer at a food bank and the numbers of clients are up and donations down. We need a change. A Goldman-Sachs sponsored President won't help us. We also provide sever weather sheltering for the homeless. This can not go on.

[1StrongBlackMan]

196. Is that a Yes or a No to my question? ...

Do you think you will get any of that by NOT voting for the Democratic Primary winner?

[peacebird]

190. No.

[AlbertCat]

195. Beyond the primaries ...

More news of the future, I see.

What of O'Malley wins! OMG!!!!!!

Can we do the primaries 1st? She hasn't won.

[1StrongBlackMan]

197. I was addressing that narrow segment of DU that has said will not vote for HRC, ever. n/t

[tex-wyo-dem]

249. I'll be honest 1SBM...

At this point, I really can't say if Hillary would be that much different, or even what she stands for or what she is. She changes positions so often with such ease that I really and honestly don't know. For all I know, we could have another GWB on our hands.

[1StrongBlackMan]

255. Well ... Thank you for your honestsy ...

But I am confident that a HRC presidency will be very, and positively, different from ANY of that brought by the gop.

Honestly!

[tex-wyo-dem]

257. "Different", in what way? Can you really say that with confidence?

I don't trust her....at all. I see her lips moving and hear words coming out of her mouth, but it has zero impact, zero meaning to me, and often make me retch because I know she doesn't mean what she's saying and lying.

She was at the bottom of my list in '08 for the very same reason.

[1StrongBlackMan]

258. Different in what way? ...

Really? If you think a HRC presidency will look like a republican presidency ... I just don't know what to say.

[tex-wyo-dem]

263. Maybe not in the crazy teabagger sort of way...

And perhaps some socially progressive bones, but the rest of it, straight out republican.

[1StrongBlackMan]

265. Well ... Yeah, except for some "socially progressive bones" ...

and an economic, fiscal, environmental, foreign affairs, and domestic policy agenda that are diametrically opposed to the republican economic agenda ... but, other than that, yeah, straight out republican.

[tex-wyo-dem]

267. Really? Ok, now you're being cheeky...

She's for fracking, supported kxl, supported artic drilling, has a tepid at best plan for combatting climate change, is an aggressive warhawk (MIC BFF) who supported the IWR, patriot act, against a living wage of $15/hr, does not support tuition free state funded colleges, does not support single payer, supports "no new taxes", supported NAFTA and supports the TPP (both horrible policies for labor and the environment), supports same ole Neo-liberal approach to globalization, did not support LBGT rights until relatively recently when it became politically acceptable, is Wall Street's BFF and does not support reistating GS, etc etc etc

Other than that, her policies are "diametrically opposed" to republicans.

[1StrongBlackMan]

268. Is she to the right of Bernie? ... Absolutely, but to put her on the same page as republicans ...

though "diametrically opposed" may be a exaggeration, is fallacious.

[Demeter]

53. I won't be party to it....I am not a lemming

to go off the cliff of sanity on the belief that Hillary is better than the alternatives.

Hillary would be the tool of Deception, Theft and War. She's said so, repeatedly. I believe her, and I won't be part of confirming her to that course.

[1StrongBlackMan]

106. Would HRC be a better alternative than ANY of the republican candidates? n/t

[Demeter]

121. No

[1StrongBlackMan]

128. Okay ... We are done. n/t

[AgingAmerican]

147. Agree, she is adopting their ideology

'Frowning fascism, or smiling fascism, take yer pick!"

When did it become acceptable to Democrats for their Presidential candidates to hold war & military policy positions and records akin to George W Bush & John McCain?

[Demeter]

148. More than that, she's destroying the Party and the concept of democracy

just as much as the GOP, but in OUR party! Making fascism and eternal war acceptable to the weak-minded and amoral.

[AgingAmerican]

149. DWS/Hillary are taking a calculated risk to gain her the Democratic nomination

Fully aware of the fact there is a good chance it will cost the Dems the general election. It's the stupidest thing I have ever seen out of a Democratic candidate.

Watch her poll numbers start to dive now that she has turned Republican.

[arcane1]

152. And that GE loss will be blamed on "The Left" for not surrendering n/t

[AgingAmerican]

153. This time it will be very obvious just whose fault it is

Their little blame game won't work.

[peacebird]

191. No

[closeupready]

123. +1.

[Buzz Clik]

62. I've heard this before: Sanders or no one else.

Not a productive stance, and not one being embraced by HRC supporters with respect to Sanders.

[1StrongBlackMan]

107. The really silly part about this is ...

some seem to that the world ends, at the end of the Democratic primary.

While that might end what appears to be the sunset of their mission ... for the rest of us, at that point we are presented with different choices.

[tex-wyo-dem]

260. Not true...

I'm a Bernie supporter, and think he is by far the best choice, but I would certainly have no problem voting for O'Malley, or Biden if he were running. I can think of dozens of Dems I think could make good presidents that i would vote for.

I just don't trust Hillary, at all. Something about her just gives me a very bad feeling.

[Android3.14]

11. Bernie Sanders is the best ethical choice we have

Last edited Fri Nov 20, 2015, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)

Would you agree?

(Edit - I changed the phrase from "only ethical" to "best ethical" within a minute of my initial post, but it looks like 1SBM pounced on it pretty quick and responded to the original title. I wonder if he would agree with "best ethical", and if not, why not.)

[1StrongBlackMan]

13. No ... I do not agree that is Bernie the "only ethical" choice.

In fact, I see that as a rather silly statement.

[TheBlackAdder]

22. What is silly is changing "best ethical" to "only ethical" in a reply. nt

[Buzz Clik]

65. Ok, BUT ....

peacebird, at the start of this subthread, made it clear that Sanders was the ONLY choice. Android changed the language, so... it seems that muddled semantics, in this case, was a team effort.

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. It's not even that complicated ...

the commenter went back and edited his/her post AFTER I replied.

[Buzz Clik]

97. Oy.

It seems there was no malice or intent to deceive on Android's part, but the initially invisible edit created a stir.

Thumbs up to Android for explaining.

[1StrongBlackMan]

105. Yes. I will give him/her that ...

despite the "pounced on" language, that makes the edit explanation less sincere.

[1StrongBlackMan]

94. I didn't change what the OP said ... The OP went back and edited ..

his/her post ... after I replied.

Apology accepted.

[Luciferous]

38. They said best, not only nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

96. NO they didn't ... not in the original post that I replied to. n/t

[Bohunk68]

47. Misquoting someone from a very short post is incredibly bad form.

You are a much much better poster than that.

[1StrongBlackMan]

98. And it is worst form to criticize someone, with i9ncomplete facts ...

I very short post I responded to, said ONLY ethical choice. The OP went back and edited the post, after I replied.

Have I re-established my much, much better poster status?

[jeff47]

114. Not anymore.

You are a much much better poster than that.

Not anymore.

[Divernan]

48. best, not only; Best, Not Only; BEST NOT ONLY!

How simply can we put that for you?

If you're so "strong", then answer the question.

[1StrongBlackMan]

102. How about going back and read the post's edit history? ...

How about going back and read the post's edit history? ... HOW ABOUT GOING BACK AND READ THE POST'S EDIT HISTORY? ...

Then, man/woman the F up and apologize!

And, Oh yeah... I'm plenty strong and I did answer the question ... BOTH of them!

[Divernan]

122. You could have changed your post within a minute as well,

which would have been more than ONE HOUR before I and many others responded. You had more than enough time to edit your response. These things happen. No need to get your knickers in a twist and start cursing.

So, to quote you (for the benefit of a jury), I suggest you man the F up and apologize to me for your foul language.

[1StrongBlackMan]

130. Really ... Why should I change MY response to his/her initial question?

You just got caught out there when the OP changed his/her post. But lack the integrity to admit it.

I suggest you man the F up and apologize to me for your foul language.

Not going to happen!

[Divernan]

133. Hey I shamed you into cleaning up your language! That's progress!

[1StrongBlackMan]

138. You think way too much of yourself. n/t

[Doctor_J]

64. The only ethical choice, by my lights

[Enthusiast]

93. Mine too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

92. "pounced on"? ... LOL ...

But no ... I don't consider Bernie is the best ethical choice, either.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

33. A non-vote is by definition not a vote.

You can only 'vote against your best interests' by voting FOR someone.

If your best interests are not served by any candidate, then not voting for any of them is not 'voting against your best interests'.

I will vote for the best of all candidates on offer in the general, whether or not I feel they have any chance of winning the general.

Thus I will be voting for 'my best interests' even though a bunch of other people vote to elect someone else.

[1StrongBlackMan]

87. Okay. Then, CHOOSING against one's self-interest. n/t

[tecelote]

37. I do agree with you on this. Despite what many say, Hillary is not a Republican.

She will hold the status quo (slow death) versus her Republican opponents who will sink our country in a single term (suicide).

I'll vote for Hillary but only if we fail to save our country first.

[MattSh]

63. Ahh, the slow death route:

That's sort of like those boiling frogs, isn't it?

The boiling frog is an anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to threats that occur gradually, such as climate change. - Or the death of the middle class

Maybe what the US needs is to be dropped into a boiling pot of water; that way they just might be suddenly awakened to what reality really is, and start protesting by the 10's of millions for change.

[TIME TO PANIC]

184. EXACTLY !

I prefer a quick death to a slow painful death, but I don't plan on dying. I plan to fight and survive. If Clinton is elected it will be at least eight years before we will have another shot at a progressive president. I'm certain if a republican wins it will be only one term. The question is can America survive one term of republican rule? I hope Bernie wins the nomination so I don't have to make that choice. Things are about to get really interesting!

[zazen]

40. Trump vs Clinton: Mussolini vs Nixon, so I may hold my nose and vote Nixon

i really, really, really don't want to have to vote for Clinton.

It says something that the only way I could do so is if the alternative is promoting unapologetic thuggish fascism. Not much of a "choice."

Too bad our primary is dominated by "party insiders," since in several polls Sanders has greater support among all voters than Clinton.

[tecelote]

42. Exactly.

Hillary is bought and paid for. The oligarchy is going to get what it paid for come hell or high water.

[KingCharlemagne]

59. Adults must sometimes vote AGAINST the greater evil. is what I plan

To do in the GE, should HRC be our party's nominee.

[tecelote]

111. Exactly.

[Scuba]

10. Here campaign will be rolling out a new slogan next week: "Country First"

[brooklynite]

15. COMMON DREAMS...that explains things

[Armstead]

74. Yes awful progressives and liberals. The scourge of America

Let's get rid of anyone to the left of Terry McAuliffe and Harold Ford.

Consign those damn librals to the outer circles of Hell.

(Pardon my hyperbolie, but unless the Democrats want to really narrowcast, it has to be more welcoming to someone besides conservative "centrists." )

[brooklynite]

81. No objection to progressives -- just over the top writing

[Demeter]

16. It's a sickness, she can't help it

She needs a long rest to bring her morals back into balance...perhaps playing with her grandchild will ground her.

[Divernan]

50. Clintons' current net worth (personal, not foundation) is +$80 million

Why don't they retire to some One Percent enclave and give the rest of the world a chance at peace?

[Cheese Sandwich]

134. She's obviously been blessed.

It's not because the Clinton's have spent a lifetime serving corporations and billionaires in government.

You see it's $80 million worth of god's blessings. Let's not question god's decision on this one.


http://time.com/2851938/hillary-clinton-dead-broke-obviously-blessed/

[safeinOhio]

18. Is she saying we can't afford

decent medical care for the middle class, but can find the funds, twice as much, for wars of choice?

[Enthusiast]

45. Unnecessary counterproductive wars of choice.

[Amimnoch]

19. Hard to take any article that considers an attack on raising the taxes on the middle class

seriously. Among other copious amounts of hyperbolic poppycock.

This isn't a "progressive" article. this is garbage.

Mmmmm, mmm. How I do love the taste of propaganda and outright lies against the Democratic Front runner (and only actual Democrat) firs thing in the morning. It does soften the bitterness of my coffee.

[RiverLover]

20. So you don't think some of the $645 BILLION spent annually by our pentagon

Could go towards healthcare for Americans? (& schools too & maybe food stamps)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/12/pentagon-budget_n_3915277.html

Neoliberalism is destroying US.

[Amimnoch]

24. Odd tangent. I have issue with the tax on the middle class and that somehow equates to the

Pentagon budget??

Unlike you, I'll follow your topic. I think a very large part of that budget... more than either candidate is proposing could go away to improve social programs.

[RiverLover]

29. My point was to highlight Clinton using the republican response ag universal hc rather than

see there are other ways to help fund it.

And a small hike in taxes would be a hell of lot better than these high monthly payments & ridiculously high deductibles & no real choice in healthcare providers.

And god forbid we're in an accident & taken unconscious to a hospital that isn't in our network. This has bankrupted many good people....one of countless problems with our current healthcare/insurance system....

I don't want a republican in office for so many reasons, including this. And I just wish our "front runner" wasn't one of them.

[A Simple Game]

55. Then you probably won't like this tangent either. Do you know that Single payer

health care would lower the total cost of health care for the whole Country? Do you really think that the tax increase, if any, would be higher than the offset of lowering of cost for the entire Country? Can you see that there would probably be a lowering of cost of health care for the middle class and the entire Country thus a net savings for most?

One persons tax is another persons health insurance, deductible, and co-pays.

You have to think beyond the right wing talking points. Speaking of right wing talking points, I thought Bernie supporters were the only ones that used them? Another Hillary supporter talking point destroyed by Hillary herself.

[arikara]

135. I know, right?

People pay through the nose for private plans, co-pays and more but talk about raising taxes a bit to cover all that and hysteria ensues.

People have totally lost the power to reason beyond r/w talking points hammered on them by media.

[RiverLover]

136. That's exactly it. Hammered...

Brainwashed. By the media.

[Doctor_J]

28. The middle class will get their tax hike back 5-10 times over in healthcare and education

Why do the hillarians copy and paste Fox news talking points here?

[Amimnoch]

43. Oh you are just so darn cute with your hypocritical indignation.

[frylock]

145. That's your answer to the cost being offset?

[fasttense]

73. Taxing the middle class is a straw man

No one has proposed a large tax increase on the middle class without an even larger tax increase on the upper class. It is a straw man Hillary throws in there to attack Sanders.

That's very much like the RepubliCONS. When someone mentions taxing the uber rich and all their stolen loot, they turn the argument into taxing the middle class. That's how RepubliCONS get so many to vote against their own best interest. They lump the rich man's goal in with the middle class.

No Hillary it is NOT about taxing the middle class it's about taxing those elite uber rich frinds of yours the 1%, oh wait she's one of the elite so she doesn't want to pay any taxes either.

[SwampG8r]

101. At this point a middle.class.tax increase will

Bring about fifty bucks a year
What middle.class? The neo libs and neocons like Hillary have destroyed the middle.class.
This is just trying to get people to believe their poverty is the middle-class so as to keep us more.divided.

[Amimnoch]

108. How astute. Thank you for the enlightenment that I no longer exist.

I'll let all those other non existant middle class people in my neighborhood know that According to Bernie's followers we no longer exist.

[SwampG8r]

110. You are proving my point

You still believe there is a middle class

[fasttense]

269. Oh you exist alright

You are Probably one the smallest and poorest middle class America has seen in decades.

But the middle class does NOT exist in large enough numbers to make a tax increase on your group to be significant enough to be helpful. If you are needing funding, you go to the group with all the money. And it ain't the middle class.

[eridani]

222. Such unmitigated bullshit. Substituting a cheaper tax for a more expensive premium--

--is not "raising taxes." Anyone who prefers a $900/month 'premium" to a $200,month "tax" should not be running around outside without adult supervision.

[Doctor_J]

21. anyone who thinks she's a liberal is a thundering idiot

Same goes for anyone who believes all of her lies

[Amimnoch]

51. Anyone who thinks Bernie can accomplish any of the false promises he's making is a thundering idiot.

Of all the potential outcomes of the 2016 House or Senate races, there isn't a single one that will allow any of Sanders vision to come to pass.

you're throwing your hopes and dreams on a toothless, de-clawed old tiger that only has his good sounding roar left in him.

Yeah.. we support the candidate who can and has gotten things done. You support the candidate that's been a US politician for decades now, and of the HUNDREDS of bills he's either sponsored or co-sponsored, only 3 have passed to become an actual law.. but that's going to be the great president?

[zalinda]

77. I still don't know what she has done

She didn't stay in the Senate long enough to get anything done. And, she was First Lady or the Governors wife, which really didn't give her much power, unless you want to take away Bill Clinton's legacy.

If you want to count her non-political life, then you have to put her up against Trump.

The only thing she has done while in government employee, with great success is promote war. And she is now again promoting war, her best and only move, which will destroy this country.

People respect Bernie and have worked with him. He doesn't toot his own horn like Hillary. He got a Veterans section in an omnibus bill, that funded veterans clinics, in a Republican majority bill. She voted for war in a Republican bill.

Z

[Amimnoch]

162. Check out my response to Frylock below yours for the Senate details.

I can throw in the ones both before and after that period if you'd like.. it's extremely accomplished.

[frylock]

146. List of 3 of Hillary's accomplishments in Congress.

[Amimnoch]

161. Besides being the first EVER ex-FLOTUS to have her own post presidency political career, and

being the first one ever elected to the Senate, she:

1. As the Senator from New York was instrumental in securing more than $21 Billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.

2. Was a leader in the investigation of health consequences of first responders and drafted the first bill to compensate and offer the health services for first responders. The bill was finalized, and passed by her successor Kirsten Gillibrand.. you know.. when she actually joined the executive branch as the Secretary of State.. What's Mr. Burns executive experience again?

3. Was a central and driving force in the bi-partisan compromise to address civil liberty abuses during the renewal fo the patriot act.

OHHH, wait, let me guess.. now that I burst this bubble of yours, you'll want specific legislation?

1. Ran the Kate Mullany National Historic Site Act to a successful passage.

2. As Senator, Hillary Clinton fought to pass the DREAM Act and comprehensive immigration reform, helping to cultivate awareness of the issues in Congress. She introduced the Legal Immigrant Children’s Health Improvement Act, which would give states the option to provide federally funded Medicaid and SCHIP benefits to low-income legal immigrant children and pregnant women. She also wrote the Access to Employment and English Acquisition Act to meet the growing demand for English language courses and other job skills.

3. Hillary wrote a law as Senator providing grants to state and local governments to pay for respite care services for family caregivers, which allows expanded funding for temporary breaks for caregivers of sick or disabled people.

Or were you possibly referring to her "establishment" ties to working on Senatorial committees?

Committee on the Budget (2001-2003)
Committee on Armed Services (2003-2009)
Subcommittee on Airland
Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities
Subcommittee on Readiness and Management Support

Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001-2009)
Subcommittee on Clean Air and Nuclear Safety
Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, and Water[3]
Subcommittee on Transportation and Infrastructure (2007-2008)[4]
Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health (Chairwoman, 2007-2009)

Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001-2009)
Subcommittee on Children and Families
Subcommittee on Employment and Workplace Safety

Special Committee on Aging.

She was also a Commissioner of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe[6] (2001-2009).


And this is just her 2 terms in the Senate! That's not even TOUCHING on her accomplishments during her executive time as SoS, or her time with the Justice department prior to her period as FLOTUS.


So fryguy, go ahead, give me Mr. Burns big list?

[frylock]

165. Was instrumental; was a leader; was a central and driving force; blahblahblah

first EVER ex-FLOTUS to have her own post presidency political career? Don't care. What bills did Hillary sponsor that got through Congress?

[Amimnoch]

166. Thank you! I was pretty sure you had nothing to come back with.

and you proved it lovely.

They were listed right there for you love. in her 8 years in the Senate, she got exactly 3 bills through congress (that she actually sponsored or co-sponsored). That's the exact same number your old man got in 21 years in Congress. You REALLY want to talk actual accomplishments?? Really?? Because if you want to go that route those 3 bills is all Burnie has for actual Success. Hillary on the other hand also has Executive experience and successes as Secretary of State. From her work in the Department of Justice, and YES, she was one of the most active and influential FLOTUS in the history of the country.

Your old has-been politician ain't got nothing but pretty words and blowhard windbag promises.

You got nuttin.

[frylock]

167. Your old man?

Charming.

[Amimnoch]

168. There, fixed for your delicate sensitivities.

Still got nothing Fry? Go ahead. 2 posts that shows what Hillary brings.. where's Bernie's? You got anything? At all? Something that shows him being successful and getting actual things done?? Any time now mate. You called me on it, I brought it.

Go ahead, sell me on Sanders. What has he actually done???

[frylock]

169. You didn't fix shit.

Your hateful, ageist bullshit is there for all to see.

[Amimnoch]

170. Come on Frylock

What's Mr. Burns done?? You got anything more than great speeches?

[frylock]

171. Naw, we're done here.

Go wallow in your hatred.

[TacoD]

172. Jury results:

On Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Thank you! I was pretty sure you had nothing to come back with.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=832611

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Your old man? I presume calling Hillary an old lady is now acceptable?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 20, 2015, 04:24 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This sub thread is getting out of hand, but what is needed is for everyone to calm down NOT to ban someone. A note to behave would be better then any ban.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The OP hit this obnoxious poster bad enough to incur vicious, foul insults worthy of the Hide Award.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am a fervent Bernie supporter and I don't find this to be alert-worthy. I don't agree with Amimnoch at all, but this rush to alert on DU has to stop.

And by the way, both Hillary and Bernie could both be called 'old'. I don't think this fits into the category of ageism when the candidates are roughly the same age.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Par for the course for primary season on DU.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Toughen up, alerter. There is nothing wrong with this post. Sanders gets called a lot worse every day. So does Clinton.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why not? A jury left "pampered princess" for me the other day, in reference to Hillary. Clean up your own mess first.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[SunSeeker]

219. This post should be an op.

[Cha]

227. Mahalo Amimnoch!

[philosslayer]

23. Thank you for your leadership Secretary Clinton

n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

25. Now that Sanders has become a non-factor, she can move to the center in preparation for

the general election.

[Cassiopeia]

32. That would still be further left than she would govern.

It's a good sign though, let the voters have a true comparison of candidates in the primary.

[Armstead]

76. The center of the right

Bullshit. Is the "center" parroting GOP talking points? Reinforcing the lies about healthcare that the GOP promulgates?

"Beware of those nasty universal health care advocates. Those Commies want to set up a Socialist health care system and steal your money to pay for it."

[Doctor_J]

27. btw, to those who thought Bernie's success would force Clinton to actually move left

One problem many liberals have is they believe the best about even the vilest of people. Stay reality based or we'll never get out of this mess

[RiverLover]

31. +1 /nt

[Enthusiast]

36. Hillary's remarks about single payer and taxes nauseated me.

Think of the taxes? Think of the premiums.

[rtracey]

49. and?

You want too get sick... think of what the taxes and the country will be like when Trump, Cruz, Carson Rubio is the president. Let the primaries speak for themselves. If you don't want Clinton in, then vote for Sanders in your primary, then either vote for the democrat nominee, don't vote at all or vote for the GOP......simple.

[U of M Dem]

68. Thank you!

For the non sequitur.

Very succinct and simplified description of the voting options that exist (which is convincing of absolutely nothing). BTW you missed voting 3rd party!

[rtracey]

112. you really are missing my point

hmmm thanks for the condescending outlook. I have been basically banned from some Sanders groups for asking questions that they feel offensive, such as, if Sanders loses, with you vote for Clinton, the GOP, or stay home......yeah I got an earful on that one.... so my main point is why not see what happens in some of the first primaries before we declare a winner....

[U of M Dem]

125. Aha!

Now I understand. I agree regarding declaring winners... that we won't know until we know.

I have been banned in the HRC group for calling out a bold faced lie, so I at least get the frustration.

Are you asking how people will vote in that "what if" scenario for your own curiosity, to poll others, to be provocative or for some other reason?

In case you were curious I can honestly say that I don't know what I will do if HRC is the Democratic candidate in the general. I just know I would be very disappointed.

[rtracey]

137. no

no poll, just curious. I have found many have not answered the question. So I usually pose it this way.... who would you rather be president. Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton or Ted Cruz..... etc..... I usually get an answer then. rt

[Enthusiast]

39. Kicked and recommended!

Wake up before it's too late.

[cantbeserious]

44. Once A Neocon - Neoliberal -- Always A Neocon - Neoliberal

eom

[bigwillq]

46. She's awful (nt)

[gordyfl]

52. It's a Big Club, and We Ain't in It.

I used to like Hillary & Bill Clinton in the early 90's. They fought for universal healthcare. I admired them for that.

In the very late 90's I noticed a change. They became corporatists. "If you can't beat them, join them." Each passing year I've noticed Hillary has gotten worse. Her Wall Street ties, her pro-war positions. She looks out first and foremost for the rich and powerful. Ordinary Americans are down low on the totem pole.

Hillary & Bill are now members of "The Big Club", and we ain't in it.

[dorkzilla]

70. The bolded adage s/b “If you can’t BEAT them, join them"

The way you have it is redundant.

[CharlotteVale]

56. The laughable mask is off.

[demwing]

58. Good

It's a trap, and Clinton walked into it!

[Buzz Clik]

60. Yawn. This kind of mudslinging in unbecoming of progressives.

... but typical of Sanders supporters.

[Doctor_J]

66. Hillary's platform is unbecoming of democrats

but typical of people with no principles

[Buzz Clik]

67. More mudslinging and this time with insults. QED.

[ibegurpard]

80. this post is full of gravitas

[Buzz Clik]

85. Here's the thing:

Sanders is trailing HRC badly in the polls. He needs to turn that around. The only way he can win is to convince current HRC supporters that he's worth the risk (and he is a huge risk with his socialism moniker).

Do you think the best way to lure HRC supporters is to, on a daily basis, tell us what stupid, sellout, 1%-loving assholes we are? Is that your concept of a winning strategy?

[ibegurpard]

88. you're the one supporting her positions

You're the one who has to justify that to yourself.

[Buzz Clik]

90. No, I don't. I only have to cast a vote.

Thanks for playing.

[99Forever]

118. You are what are.

If you prefer not to be seen as something, stop being it, rather than whining about others observing that you exhibit those behaviors.

[Logical]

229. Hillary supporters whine a lot about every story. Nt

[U of M Dem]

69. Hillary is the neoliberal candidate. N/T

[Buzz Clik]

91. Yeah! Third Way!!!!!1111

[RiverLover]

99. Yep

The Democrats' 'Third Way' Quarrel Could Change Your Future

Lessons from Clinton’s 'third way'

Obviously people aren't learning the lessons.

[Buzz Clik]

104. The "lessons" are exercises in rhetoric from one set of ideologues.

And, yeah -- they are falling on deaf ears because not everyone's pendulum swings that far to the left.

[U of M Dem]

127. The long-prevalent anti-red propaganda-

based classical conditioning continues to work on our voting public. That is exactly why we need to educate , speak our truth , and wake the sleeping giant of disaffected populace that have been disinterested and disengaged in politics. The other half of the voting aged populous are hurting for change and feel that they have no agency in their sociopolitical reality. That would be a political revolution and I would be proud to be a part of it. Bernie is a change facilitator, a motivated and capable populace will bring that change to fruition. The more the establishment resists, the more motivation will manifest and be evoked in the downtrodden.

[humbled_opinion]

75. Told ya so....

Certainly won't be my last one as this inevitability progresses.

[ibegurpard]

78. Hillary 2016!

Because we just haven't moved far enough to the right.

[mountain grammy]

79. I will support and vote for my candidate..

not as protest but with every intention of getting him elected to the presidency. Sanders is my candidate because I believe he is our best hope for the change America needs. Bernie convinced me of that ( I was holding out hope for Warren.) Nothing I've heard has changed my mind. Bernie Sanders will win the nomination in the only poll that counts.

I'm an old lady. I've thought long and hard about this election. A woman president in my lifetime would be a dream come true, but, at this point, an honest liberal is far more important to save us from corporations and ourselves.

[Enthusiast]

100. +1

[d_legendary1]

82. So she regrets the Iraq war vote but is pusing for more war in the process

I thought when you learned not to do something bad you don't continue doing it.

[RiverLover]

86. It's the definition of insanity.

And this is some insane stuff.

At a time in history when we most need the opposite of what our "front runner" will bring as a president, on almost every level, this is what the DNC is trying to force upon US.

[d_legendary1]

126. The new Republicans comes to mind

and its shocking!

[Bread and Circus]

83. I didn't think the return of Sybil would be this fast

[Cosmic Kitten]

84. I'm shocked!!!1!!11!

[Hepburn]

115. Warp-speed, exit platform right

I figured she would wait at least until she got the nomination. IMO, disgusting show of RW thought.

[Ino]

116. Hillary taunts progressives with "Who ya gonna vote for?"

and laughs

[PoliticalMalcontent]

215. ugh.

Thanks for posting. Had heard this referenced several times, but it was the first time I had seen this clip. There's a cognitive dissonance with talking about death while at the same time laughing. Dehumanizing enemies is common in the military, but it sucks seeing people talk about death and following it up with laughter. It's about character.

[Indepatriot]

232. Let's not forget this classic...

[UglyGreed]

117. K/R

[Todays_Illusion]

120. I was surprised Common Dreams published this and yet we will continue to see Hillary supporters

claim Hillary is liberal/progressive. Never mind how obvious her lurch to the right is.

[closeupready]

124. I am not going to vote for her.

This reinforces my decision.

[AgingAmerican]

141. She's a Republican now

Ideologically

[closeupready]

143. And even if someone said 'no, she's not', I don't think she cares which party

she is affiliated with. All she wants is power.

She has all the wealth and fame she could possibly ask for. Power is the only thing she doesn't yet have.

[nolabels]

245. In a nutshell

[AgingAmerican]

140. She doesn't have convictions

She is a say anything to get elected politician. No more, no less.

[EndElectoral]

144. Well, that didn't take long. First debate Progressive. Push comes to shove - strong right lurch.

She is simply transparent.

[Beacool]

150. Hillary is thinking beyond the primaries to the general election.

People are jittery and the more terrorists attacks there are between now and election day, the more people will consider a Republican. Trump's polls went up since the terrorist attack in Paris. People perceive Republicans to be tougher on terrorism and crime.

[ibegurpard]

164. if you support her policies

Then we are not allies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

155. It's always been a facade. And, a pretty unconvincing one.

[Romulox]

163. She wasn't fooling *anyone*. Her supporters are DU's most conservative. nt

[upaloopa]

176. "Massive right wing lurch"

The Bernistas creating their own reality.

[totodeinhere]

180. Did you even read the article? It gave examples of her move to the right.

If you disagree with that why don't you specifically address the points made in the article rather than just coming back with a snarky reply?

[upaloopa]

182. "From her call for a major air and ground war against ISIS to her attack on single-payer"

Stating those positions is not a move in any direction.

On edit:
You have your list of what you call progressive such as single payer.
No description of what that entails other than other countries do it.
Someone comes along and says, maybe we should take a closer look at that and it is a lurch to the right.
You would have to be for single payer to lurch away from it. Get it.?

[totodeinhere]

207. I don't agree with you but at least now I know where you are coming from which I didn't before.

Thanks.

[Ed Suspicious]

183. "she'll be the most hawkish Democratic nominee since the Iraq War began."

[Persondem]

185. Bernie lurches rigtward as well. He calls for bombing and a ground war just like Clinton

But as usual his ideas are not as developed, so Clinton looks worse by comparison because she has a more developed proposal. What do you think Bernie means by ME countries have to put some "skin in the game"? Clinton didn't say anything about using US troops. The only difference is that Clinton would consider a no-fly zone.

Clinton says she is against lower and middle class tax increases and that is a rightward lurch??? Bullshit.

Sanders has NOTHING on his campaign website about single payer. He is running away from it because calling for trillions in new taxes is a non-starter for a presidential candidate. And if you believe differently you are very politically naïve.

So nothing about Bernie's rightward lurches???? What a hypocrite.

As usual ... another anti-Clinton post long on bluster, bold text, and indignation yet very short on substance. This is getting to be a habit for you folks.

[RiverLover]

203. Utter BS. Outrageous for you to say such a vile, outright untruth.

During a speech at Georgetown University focused on Sanders's political philosophy of "democratic socialism," the Vermont senator called on a "new and strong coalition of Western powers, Muslim nations, and countries like Russia" to combat ISIS. Sanders said that coalition should share counterterrorism intelligence, "turn off the spigot of terrorist financing" and "end support for exporting radical ideologies."

“To my mind, it is clear that the United States must pursue policies to destroy the brutal and barbaric ISIS regime, and to create conditions that prevent fanatical extremist ideologies from flourishing. But we cannot — and should not — do it alone," he said.

Sanders also called for the creation of an organization similar to NATO, focused on confronting today's security threats.

But, he added that "the fight against ISIS is a struggle for the soul of Islam."

"Countering violent extremism and destroying ISIS must be done primarily by Muslim nations – with the strong support of their global partners," he added.

http://mashable.com/2015/11/19/sanders-clinton-syria-isis/#4erIta2bMmqg

A new and strong coalition of Western powers, Muslim nations, and countries like Russia must come together in a strongly coordinated way to combat ISIS, to seal the borders that fighters are currently flowing across, to share counter-terrorism intelligence, to turn off the spigot of terrorist financing, and to end support for exporting radical ideologies," the Vermont senator said Thursday during an address at Georgetown University.

Sanders pointed specifically to counties like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates -- "countries of enormous wealth and resources" -- to join the coalition.

"Wealthy and powerful Muslim nations in the region can no longer sit on the sidelines and expect the United States to do their work for them," he added. "As we develop a strongly coordinated effort, we need a commitment from these countries that the fight against ISIS takes precedence over the religious and ideological differences that hamper the kind of cooperation that we desperately need."

The use of military force from the United States, according to Sanders, should be left as "a last resort, not a first resort." He reminded his Washington, D.C. audience that "ill-conceived military decisions" like the invasion of Iraq, can cause "far-reaching devastation."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernie-sanders-details-isis-strategy-defines-democratic-socialism/

God speed President Sanders.

[Persondem]

223. Here are the quotes from Sanders

I have supported U.S. airstrikes against ISIS and believe they are authorized under current law,

If these guys in the region think that ISIS is such a great threat, they gotta put some skin in the game.

From this link

[RiverLover]

237. And he never mentions troops on the ground. Why kill our young Americans just to create more

terrorists who hate US? ISIS exists because of US! The whole thing is crazy. We need someone sane in the WH.

[Persondem]

251. Only the GOP candidates want US boots on the ground. nt.

[RiverLover]

254. Along with Hillary. She & the GOP have much in common. Like this article points out.

But for some reason you didn't read what she is quoted as saying in the OP article.

Maybe this one will get you to see what's right in front of you~

Pssssssst: Hillary and Her GOP Rivals Have Pretty Much the Same Plan to Deal With ISIS

[Persondem]

266. Perhaps you don't know the difference between special ops and regular troops.

When leaders refer to boots on the ground they mean regular troops. Special forces go lots of places that regular troops do not go. Big difference. And since Obama is already sending in SpecFor she is just advocating for their continued use. Special ops allows for more accurate air strikes, gathering more precise intel and much more.

NOT the same as regular troops.

As this article says ...

" ... the phrase has become a shorthand for combat operations, engagements where the U.S. soldiers are actively shooting at people who are definitely shooting back."

[Uncle Joe]

186. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, RiverLover.

[RiverLover]

201. ....

Uncle Joe! My new favorite uncle. Thanks for the rec!!

[Uncle Joe]

217. It was my pleasure.

Peace to you, RiverLover.

[Warren DeMontague]

188. Thank God, she's going to fight terrorism by demanding that no one be able to encrypt their phones.

And if past performance is any indication, what will happen again is that these vital and crucial 'terrorism fighting powers' will be used almost exclusively by the DEA and local law enforcement to track and arrest people for smoking marijuana.

[Live and Learn]

199. Give her a break. After all, she was attacked by sniper fire and is probably suffering from PTSD.

- Just in case.

We have said it all along. With Hillary you will get war. Some here don't seem to mind that.

[99Forever]

200. Façade? You mean there are actually chumps that bought that crap?

I got a buttload of oceanfront property for sale in Kansas.

Any takers? (Cash only)

[ChiciB1]

204. This Is Who She Is, And THIS Is What Our Democratic Party

wants, and they are going TO DO EVERYTHING they can to make sure she is WHO will be the nominee! I do not understand why what we've done for so many years ALREADY and that hasn't worked is what we're supposed to vote for again!

I'm so frustrated, infuriated and disgusted by the way our country is becoming known for WAR, and allowing ourselves to be RULED by Wall Street and all the other OLIGARCHS!

Say what you will, I AM very afraid!

[azmom]

205. I will never vote for her.

[MisterP]

226. but how else will Central America be subjected to throat-slashing cartel oligarchs?!

[blackspade]

206. Her comments on health care and taxes are bullshit.

Sanders is talking about raising taxes on the rich to finance universal health care not the middle class.
This is fear mongering and disingenuous.

[SHRED]

212. F#CK THIS SH#T

[seafan]

214. "I don’t think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of Iraq led to......."

... quote in this CommonDreams piece is incorrectly attributed to Clinton:

Clinton has stated publicly that she believes that her vote in favor of the 2003 invasion of Iraq was wrong and has been pressed on this issue during the campaign, including during Saturday's Democratic debate, where she admitted: "I don't think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of Iraq led to the massive level of instability we are seeing right now."

That quote is actually part of a statement by Sanders.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I don’t think there’s any—I don’t think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of Iraq led to the massive level of instability we are seeing right now. I think that was one of the worst foreign policy blunders in the modern history of the United States.

A very hard-hitting piece, this is.

[YOHABLO]

216. She's losing the progressives, so she's going after the disgruntled Republicans.

Disgruntled because they know they have nothing but wack-a-doodle running for president. Although I do think Rubio has some intelligence. Trump is just a megalomaniac who appeals to the xenophobes and bigots.

[wouldsman]

218. Is this who we have become?

If primaries are an attempt to discover just what the soul of the party is all about, considering that Hillary is currently leading, and that party insiders back her, then this is the soul of the Democratic Party?
I need to go do some soul searching.
No more foolish wars that my children will have to pay the price for.

[RiverLover]

238. It feels to me like this Hillary Push has finally crushed the fight for the soul of the Party

At least within its leadership. The media is assisting. Our only hope is that grassroots is strong enough, effective enough, to get the truth out about all the GOOD Bernie offers US. We are the change we wish to see.

[BeanMusical]

220. Kick and R

[RoccoR5955]

224. Once a war monger, always a war monger

I always say!

[BeanMusical]

235. The more she "changes" the more she stays the same.

[LS_Editor]

225. Hillary Drafting Young Donors for 2017 ISIS Ground War

This piece of satire makes a pretty good point about how much elections matter, especially to young American voters. Hillary Clinton's foreign policy is more similar to Dick Cheney's than Barack Obama's, and that is not good for Americans.

Hillary Drafting Young Donors for 2017 ISIS Ground War

WASHINGTON (The Nil Admirari) - Earlier today, Democratic presidential candidate and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced she was drafting all of her campaign donors between the ages of 18 and 25 for ground combat roles in the war she planned to fight against the Islamic State (ISIS) following her inauguration in 2017. Clinton touted her gender inclusiveness in the process, and noted both men and women were being automatically volunteered for military service to fight in her future Middle East wars of choice.

+

"My supporters must know by now that I intend to be far more willing to use the American military in direct ground combat roles than President Obama. I have learned absolutely nothing from my vote to authorize the 2003 war in Iraq, or the American experience in Vietnam," said Secretary Clinton, who reminded reporters ISIS was just the first of many targets.

More at link.

[JDPriestly]

231. The polls show Bernie doing better against the Republicans than Hillary does.

So she is trying to appeal to right-wingers by going right-wing.

Wrong way street, Hillary Clinton. That street will take you in the wrong direction. You will regret it.

[BeanMusical]

236. Kick and R

[RiverLover]

239. Thanks for the kick, Bean!!

[Zorra]

253. Even a bat could see through that one. nt