HRC supporters, help me out here, tell me why i should vote for HRC in the primary

[0rganism]

i've seen & heard plenty of position statements from Sen. Sanders, not so much from the other candidates, and that could be for a couple reasons, such as:
1. the M$M is not covering issue positions for the other Democrats
2. the coverage is there and my sorry ass is missing it

so tell me, why do i want to vote for HRC? what does she bring to the table? what positions does she take on issues? where do her positions, personality, or maybe the entire package, especially shine?

i'm genuinely curious about what strikes you as really excellent about HRC that i won't get in another candidate, things that wouldn't just help me support her, but support her enthusiastically, things i won't find in a casual web search. tell me why she's the best candidate for you, and maybe me too.

note to supporters of other candidates: please don't bother telling me why i shouldn't vote for HRC, i've already seen plenty of that around here, and for purposes of this thread i don't care if another candidate has a "more progressive" position on an issue
note to HRC supporters: please don't focus on conjectural arguments about "electability", just tell me what appeals to you about her beyond that -- she's electable for reasons, right?

[Frances]

1. I don't care who you vote for in the primary

as long as you vote Dem in the general election

No more Republican Supreme Court Justices

No more Republican president failing to veto dangerous legislation

[restorefreedom]

17. ahhhh the daily loyalty pledge

i was starting to worry they were going the way of the dinosaur....

[NanceGreggs]

32. So pointing out the fact ...

... that Democrats should keep Republicans out of office is demanding a "loyalty pledge"? Seriously?

This ridiculous meme should have gone the way of the dinosaur - and yet it is still being repeated on DU as though it actually means something.

If you want to vote for a Republican in the GE, no one is stopping you. No one here is demanding anything. There is no such thing as a "loyalty pledge".

But keep beatin' that drum; its resonance is almost as loud as its irrelevance.

[restorefreedom]

55. i never said i would vote for a rep in the ge

and have no intention of doing so. there are other options.

but there is no secret that so many progressives are disillusioned at the establishment that if hillary were to be the nom, many have said they would stay home or do a write in rather than vote for someone who, in their view, is not much different, if at all, than a centrist republican. people have a right to their vote. neither Hillary nor her supporters should demand that anyone vote a particular way. And using scare tactics like the Supreme Court appointments isn't enough anymore to convince people to vote for a Warhawk who is also in line with the corporate masters. If h turns out to be the nominee, especially if she's running against bush, this could be the lowest voter turnout in decades.

in one way or another, the will of the people will be satisfied, but it may not be in the way that we like. But we still have a right to vote as we see fit and not promise to do anything either in the primary or in the general. I know that's not necessarily a popular opinion, but that's the way it is. It's called freedom and we still have it in this country.

[Go Vols]

64. When the current Prez

said he would be considered a moderate Republican if this were the '80s,I try to think where HRC and him differ on major things.

I voted for Jimmy Carter because I didn't care for moderate R's then, and still don't.

Whatever people want to call Bernie,that's what I am.

I have always voted straight D on everything, hoping someone like Bernie would eventually come along before people forgot what a real D should be.

I'll pledge loyalty to real D values.

[zappaman]

31. How dare you say you will vote Dem in the GE!!!!

On DU no less!!!!!


Have you no shame?

[youceyec]

106. actuallly no

it does matter. Clinton is the only one who an win general. A vote for Sanders is a vote for R presidency.

[MisterP]

2. asking for reasons for things is why we lost 2014!

sit down, eyes forward, hands out of pockets, and be grateful for your freedoms

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I think the silence from HRC supporters is very telling.

Here's their golden opportunity.........and what do we get?



Crickets.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

13. That is truly unfortunate, my dear Agschmid...

[Agschmid]

14. It is what it is...

But I bet that's why this won't get a lot of responses.

[Aerows]

44. If Hillary Clinton supporters were certain

of what her positions are other than "elect me for President", I'm quite sure we would see them heralding those ideals and ideas - which they should, since that is what supporters do politically to help their candidate.

I'm pretty sure you could ask anybody on DU what Bernie Sanders believes in, even the people that don't support him, and they could rattle it off.

[sheshe2]

94. Trust me we are heralding it.

We just aren't doing it here.

DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND IS SADLY LOST.

Bye~

[ismnotwasm]

98. Well I'm not posting here hardly at all at this time and that is not the case with me whatsoever

I'm very certain of her positions. I refuse to engage in the back and forth snark, read CT Woo RW crap and have left-thinking people actually agree and promote it, have my candidate of choice "positions" grossly maligned or dismissed, or outright lied about no matter how many times they are properly presented. There are other places to go. I go there. I can celebrate, be excited and promote my candidate of choice in freedom. I can discuss strengths and weaknesses. I am surrounded by fellow Democrats. I save my spite for Republicans.

It's not surprising, in retrospect, that DU went for Sanders. Nor should the subsequent exodus of Hillary supporters (and others) be surprising, or put down to an inability to defend her positions. That type of comment is a perfect example of why I no longer post here.

[liberal_at_heart]

100. It's not just Hillary supporters who leave DU you know. I just took a 4 month break from DU

and the only reason I am back is because of all the news stories I was seeing about how well Bernie is doing and I was curious what people were saying about Bernie on DU. I get tired of being attacked for not shutting my mouth and supporting whatever Democratic nominee there is no matter what. In fact, if Bernie doesn't win the nomination I will probably have to leave for good because you're not even allowed to talk about third parties on this website.

[0rganism]

15. and that's a bummer

it further rarifies DU, turns us into more of an echo chamber for an underdog candidate.
i guess that means if i want to learn about what's great about the leading Democratic candidate, not from her campaign literature but from her supporters themselves, i'll have to go elsewhere and eavesdrop or some such?
i can't believe that.
there are plenty of HRC supporters in the threads here, they may be pissed as hell but they're still vocal and articulate.
which is why i asked here in the first place.
imma gonna be patient and wait for a while on this before i give up.

[restorefreedom]

18. just fyi

Bernie is leading in Iowa and New Hampshire, the first two states. And it won't be long before he's leading nationally. But I'm sure she has a webpage where you can read about more of her positions on the issues. There are also other forums dare I mention it besides DU that discuss progressive politics.

[0rganism]

21. maybe

he does have a lot of ground to cover before he leads in national polls, i would estimate if his numbers continue to increase as they have so far he's on track to be in the lead by November. however, he is not leading nationally... yet.

the natural question that gets asked about other candidates' poll numbers seems to be "what's their ceiling?"
with HRC, it's turned into "what's her floor?"

she does have a web page, at least one. all the candidates have web pages. i've found that's not the only way i learn about and eventually support a candidate. i like to read what other people find worth supporting about a candidate too, and others often boil it down or find some extremely interesting ideas that aren't presented in official campaign communications.

the point about alternate forums is fair, there are certainly other places i can go to learn more, i intend to have a look at some of them today. however, my question is, "why NOT here?"
why not here, too?

[restorefreedom]

53. no reason at all

not to explore here. there is a group for every declared candidate except i think webb. ellen and bigtree have put up some nice stuff about omalley, who is a great candidate not getting enough attention imo. don't think you will learn much about webb or chafee here, but maybe.

the biggest thing you have probably discovered is a contentious (often anyway)debate about the sanders policies vs the clinton policies. unfortunately, these conversations sometimes devolve into unpleasantness. and before anyone jumps on me, i will be the first to admit i have landed some zingers. i try and not go after anyone as a person, but rather their comments or policies (for the candidates).

the vast majority of people here have decided on a candidate, but maybe you could start a thread (or even a group i don't know what the rules are) for undecideds.

good luck and try to have fun!

[0rganism]

58. seems fun to me already

at least more fun than the next available alternative activity...

part of the reason i started this thread is exactly the contention you describe. there are differences in Sanders' & Clinton's policies, to be sure, but they all too often become obscured by discussions of SuperPACs, demographics and electability rather than issues and personality, and it only devolves from there.

an undecided thread is a very interesting idea - if i started one, i would definitely volunteer to curate it. the goal would be, similar to this thread, respectfully present information that attracts you to a candidate without necessarily tearing down the others. that's an open frontier, don't recall seeing it on this forum ... yet.

[restorefreedom]

60. its good that people are passionate

but sometimes things hit the skids...human nature.

i am sure that you can find like minded people (explorers, if you will) here. and there will be no lack of people willing to sell their candidate!

[liberal_at_heart]

87. DU has always been nasty on both sides. I have taken more than a few voluntary

time outs because I don't automatically vote Democrat and have been harassed because of it.

[NanceGreggs]

36. The silence from the HRC supporters ...

... is a result of many of them having left DU.

You might want to check out what's happening in the real world, where Hillary is still the front-runner and has massive support among actual Democrats.

If you choose to believe that DU is in any way reflective of real life, maybe you can explain why 85% of DU are BS supporters, when he has nowhere near that percentage of support among Democrats in the real world.

I know you just LOVE DU, Peggy - but if you're going to pretend that it is reflective of what's going on in real life, you're just drinking the Bernie-flavoured kool-aide that is served here 24/7.

Try venturing out into real life once in a while - you might learn something.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

38. How can you think that I don't go out into the real world?

Yes, I love DU, and you know why. I also know that it is not the end-all and be-all of discussions.

I'm not going to argue with you, Nance. You're a much better debater than I.

I have carefully and fully read about both HRC and Sanders, and I have solid reasons for thinking the way I do.

[NanceGreggs]

61. If your "solid reasons" ...

... include thinking that "the silence from HRC supporters is very telling", you are apparently not venturing beyond DU.

"Here's their golden opportunity.........and what do we get? Crickets."

Given the current state of DU, that's like saying, "I went to FreeRepublic and talked about the the good work being done by Democrats - and all I got were crickets".

And then there's this: "And thanks to boston bean, I am now firmly in the Bernie Sanders camp. I had been vacillating, but now I'm done with that."

When you base your support of one candidate over another on what one what one DU poster said, it's hard to take you seriously.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

62. Think what you like.

I do more than I say here.

And my reasons are my own.

[sheshe2]

74. I will never...

completely leave. I tried to stay away, this place is ugly.

I came back because my friends in AA were under attack again. AA once again viciously attacked. Hosts locked at least 3 threads in AA. Not because they were bad, it was because posters were being alert stalked and hidden. The hosts did it so we would not loose anymore people. We lost three. AA and their supporters are being stalked and silenced.

This is sick and it sure as hell needs to stop. ALERT STALKING IN AA IS A FACT!

[Ken Burch]

65. That was a deeply elitist, arrogant, and dismissive post, Nance. You're better than that.

Last edited Wed Sep 16, 2015, 11:45 PM - Edit history (1)

The vast majority of Bernie's supporters are just as much "actual Democrats" as HRC supporters are. The rest are people who would have been Democrats if the party hadn't been taken over by Wall Street since the Eighties or who had been but were driven away from the Democratic Party by the massive (and as you'd now have to concede totally unjustified and unnecessary)Democratic swing to the right engineered by Bill and Hil's friends in the DLC(the group Jesse Jackson rightfully called "Democrats for the Leisure Class" when it stole control of the party in 1992).



Obama was somewhat better and more progressive during his tenure(it still goes without saying that a HRC presidency would have been massively to his right and it's likely we'd still be at full troop strength in Iraq and Afghanistan), but he made the catastrophic choice(probably under Rahm's influence) of passively sitting by and allowing the right-wing and the Tea Party to take control of the political agenda in the 2009-2010 period, and basically ordered the "movement" his campaign was supposed to be just the beginning of to roll over and die.


In real life, most people don't back the trade deals. In real life, most people don't think what business wants is more important than everything and everyone else. And in real life, most people don't want us to militarily intervene in Ukraine or the Arab/Muslim world. However, most people do want stronger unions, greater ease in organizing unions in their workforce, and single-payer healthcare.


Bernie's candidacy represents the deepest values of the Democratic Party and, at a basic level, the underlying, if sometimes repressed belief in fairness and basic decency that represents the American people at their best. It is honest, it is principled, and it is as grounded in reality as any other Democratic campaign.

If your candidate does get nominated, she will have to embody much of what the Sanders movement stands for, and frankly, she will have to tell Wall Street and the Pentagon to go Cheney themselves. Those of you who support her, despite her last three decades of always representing solely the conservative, privileged wing of the party(a wing that doesn't really represent much of
anyone in the actual electorate anymore) to listen to the voices from outside and below as well as the voices of the insiders. You, as her supporters, are going to need to push her to do that and you are going to have to treat Sanders and his supporters and what we stand for with respect(which your post above pointedly did not do) if your candidate is to have any chance of victory. She can't simply demand those votes and give them nothing in exchange. We all want to prevent a GOP presidential victory-but that can only be done by running a passionate, progressive people's campaign in the fall. Soundbites, centrism, flag fetishism and meaningless talk about "experience" can't lead to victory and can't produce anything of value even if they did. Organization, the generation of sincere enthusiasm and a strong grassroots ground game can defeat any enemy.



HRC is not the only "serious" candidate. Her supporters aren't the only "actual Democrats". And the polls prove she's not the only "electable" candidate. It's a changed race and your candidate can only get nominated if her supporters respect the progressive, anticorporate, change-from-below feelings of most Democrats and potential Dems and stop acting as if you are entitled to talk down to people just because they want more change than you are comfortable with.

[Barky Bark]

75. This.

[morningfog]

67. Do you ever post about anything other than DU and DUers?

[Bobbie Jo]

70. Do you?

What a bizarre pot/kettle moment.

*smh*

[morningfog]

71. I sure do.

I guess you aren't keeping as close tabs on me as you used to.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

97. Peggy is the real deal, especially irl! n/t

[sheshe2]

76. Crickets you say?

Ya'll have run us off this board. This place is pure venom.

I joined DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. This sure is no longer the place I joined. This place is but a shadow of it's former self.

Hey Peg. I found a far more progressive site to post to.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

79. My dear sheshe...

I would never want to run anyone off of DU.

We need all voices.

PM me (if you would) your progressive site. Thanks.

[sheshe2]

82. Peg.

We have been abused here. You are the majority and you rule the jury pool. We are being forced off this board.

Ya see Peg, a person called an AA member a 'Race Nagger' it is a leave. You understand the letter that is not an a. Hillary called a whore, it is a leave. The C word a leave.

No Peggy, not sharing the site. You may not want to run us off, yet you are in your silence. Talk about crickets. What is happening here is so very painful on a supposed Democratic board.I weep.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

83. OK.

[hamsterjill]

107. I'm supporting Hillary.

My honest opinion is that, although I really like Bernie, I don't think he is capable of winning in the general election. There, I said it. I think the Republican base will come out in droves to vote against him because they will label his agenda "socialism" and they are all fiercely afraid of that.

But if you say you support Hillary around here, you run the risk of getting pounded. To me, that's ridiculous. To me, we should be able to discuss anything around here with respect and dignity, and vote for who we, as individuals, feel is the best choice to go up against the Republicans. I don't know if all of DU supports the same goal that I do, but my goal is to keep a Republican out of the White House.

I've never said an ugly word about Bernie Sanders on DU or otherwise. In fact, I admire the guy greatly. I LIKE that he's in the race because I truly believe that he is bringing substance to the primary and to the discussion at large. I like his ideas and his platform. I just do not believe that he will do as well as Hillary can do against a Republican candidate in the general election.

I figure that, just as my mind is pretty much made up, the Bernie supporters' minds are made up, as well. So why argue? We all will go out and vote in the primary and see what the results are.

And if Bernie IS the nominee and Hillary is not, I'll be the first one in line to vote for him. I, personally, can't fathom anyone else on a DEMOCRATIC message board not feeling the same way if Hillary is the nominee, but I've seen posts that would differ from that sentiment.

So, I guess my attitude is pretty much, meh, I'll do what I think is best, and I'll allow others to do the same, and we'll see who wins.

And if Hillary is the nominee, I hope that others here will support her when the time comes. Because if we don't all come together in the general election regardless of who the nominee is, there WILL BE a Republican in the White House and I will go to bed every night afraid and anxious just as I did for eight long years with George W. Bush. As a Texan, I KNEW he did not have the mental capacity to be President...and knowing that was a scary thing.

[taught_me_patience]

4. Hillary supporters have been demonized, ganged up on, and driven out

why waste time anymore?

[frylock]

8. The poor things..

just take a look at their support for David Brock's red-baiting bullshit to get a full understanding of why Clinton supporters are demonized, ganged up on, and driven out.

[Aerows]

22. Get a load of this exchange

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251598480#post110

We aren't "humble" enough to recognize her greatness. And then the person proceeds to lecture about humility and how Bernie Sanders supporters are full of themselves.

Yeah, calling everybody on DU that supports Bernie pompous fools that "don't understand" is a winning strategy.

I'm pretty sure that someone is going to show up in this thread and like a sensible woodchuck declare:

[frylock]

30. They know they lose on the issues, so they have to resort to personal attacks of DUers..

which are almost always projections of their own character flaws.

[Aerows]

34. If at first you don't succeed

Make a thinly veiled personal attack.

That seems to be the motto.

[frylock]

37. In any case, here's an opportunity for them to sell their candidate..

and apparently they can't even do that. The one person who did respond went against the OP's request, and cited electability as the reason to support her in the primary, as well as resorting to ageism and red-baiting.

[Aerows]

43. It's like a case study

on what you shouldn't do in a political race.

The canceling of the Dallas speech ("scheduling conflicts&quot , but going ahead with the exclusive (2,700 a pop) Dallas fundraiser should clue in even the least astute to the fact that her campaign is not doing well.

[frylock]

45. My interpretation of that cancelled event:

She is spending an awful lot on polling, and I think they know the momentum has swung, and it ain't coming back. So now it's just a cash grab to ensure that she can pay down her campaign debts.

[aspirant]

66. ....and when she loses the primaries

whose gonna pay the outdated Clinton machine $200,000/ speech

[0rganism]

9. i'm sorry you feel that way

my interest was, and remains, genuine

[leftofcool]

5. Why? We don't have time to explain stuff on DU'\.

We are too busy campaigning, getting out the vote, making calls etc............

[ibegurpard]

6. in other words

It should be self evident to all the plebs...the arrogant attitude that is helping to kill the Democratic Party.

[MoveIt]

7. LOL

[0rganism]

11. i'm hoping you're sarcastic

i'm a Democrat who's also a guaranteed primary voter. my state (OR) isn't very important to the primary process, so there won't be any polling data to tell if the state's outcome is in doubt for some time yet, but i would think posting answers to my inquiry might be considered part of the whole "campaigning" thing. i'm not the only person who will read this.

[leftofcool]

27. There are tons of sites out there that spell out in detail Hillary issues.

Her website is a good place to start.

[0rganism]

63. agreed, i also wanted opinions from pro-HRC DUers

so far i've gotten a couple RTFMs, which i pretty much expected, but also some good feedback with things to look for and think about while i go to other sites. DU's HRC forum has a bunch of A/V listed which i haven't seen yet. http://www.democraticunderground.com/11074705
doubt i'll be able to watch them all but it's a nice collection.

HRC's website does have info, which i'm looking at now. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

[Barky Bark]

23. When loud Hillary supporters do that to other voters

It drives them to Bernie. Call it the reverse effect that she is looking for.

[olddots]

10. can I get a frickin clue here ?

[NCTraveler]

16. "Position statements from Sanders"

That is part of the difference. Hillary has many outlined proposals that one would have to read. She also speaks about them daily if the "ststements" are what you are into. Hard to be willing to take the time to answer to you when you start with a comment like that.

Her positions are also posted here daily. Might I also direct you to the Hillary group if you are really interested. That being said, if progressive policy is what you are looking for, O'Malley has the best platform. No one is even close. Take some time to read about him.

[0rganism]

19. thanks for an honest response

it's really easy to run into Sanders material on this forum, and it seems like he's the only candidate (Democratic or otherwise) to have his position statements televised lately. (i don't count anything from Trump as an actual position)

i haven't seen much from HRC, but maybe i've just been looking in the wrong places - i'll check the Hillary group.

i was thinking of posting a similar OP for O'Malley, but wanted to give this thread some time first, so i can just cover one at a time. i'll consider that later, and also check the Martin O'Malley group so maybe i won't have to.

anyway thanks for the pointers.

[NCTraveler]

20. +1 O'Malley has excellent proposals and very comprehensive.

[Barky Bark]

25. Why would I want to look in Hillary Clinton group?

Why not state her policy positions here instead of hiding it?

Or, would it be that she has got nothing that isn't better than Bernie's policy positions?

I especially like his approach to the single payer plan. What does Hillary got?

[leftofcool]

29. Her positions are not hidden in our group

Anyone can read any forum. Did someone tell you that you were not allowed to read the HRC Forum?

[aspirant]

68. We can read, just not comment without banning.

Here we can have a discussion

[sheshe2]

95. Uuuuum.

Single payer failed in Vermont.

To expensive.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/vermont-peter-shumlin-single-payer-health-care-113653

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-04-11/vermont-s-single-payer-dream-is-taxpayer-nightmare

Now comes the big challenge: paying for it. Act 48 required Vermont to create a single-payer system by 2017. But the state hasn't drafted a bill that spells out how to raise the approximately $2 billion a year Vermont needs to run the system. The state collects only $2.7 billion in tax revenue each year, so an additional $2 billion is a vexingly large sum to scrape together.

[TheKentuckian]

108. Vermont spends 5 billion on health care. If you can't afford to save more than 100% of expenditures

then math must work much differently in your universe.

If it was too expensive then what kind of costs could have conceivably been expected did they think it would cost a penny on the dollar, ten cents, a quarter? Surely not.

Two billion would be a jaw dropping reduction in systemic costs.

What a phony argument this is, under the Wealthcare and Profit Protection Act we are locked in up to 9.5% of income in tithes to the insurance cartel just for premiums anyway.

All of this "too expensive" bullshit is for the exclusive benefit of the uppercrust and neighboring fuckbags that always win in the fee for service model over taxation. Steerage has already been setup with about a 10% fee for health insurance premiums alone.

Single payer didn't fail in Vermont it was used as bait and then aborted, there is no way in hell any reasonable person would expect it to come to such a low percentage of existing spending much less honestly gone into the process expecting some much lower number.
What did they think the change from between the couch cushions would take care of it?

This argument is fucking nuts, you expect crazy talk from the right wingers but this is Democrats. Flat out appalling and stunning, many no longer even pretend, it is just boldly and flat out the rainbow Reaganites now.

[FSogol]

56. +1 Completely agree. n/t

[philosslayer]

24. Because America will not vote for a 75 year old socialist for President

It won't happen, no matter how much you want to make it so.

Hillary is tough as nails, has extensive foreign policy experience, and is married to one of the most popular and successful President's in our lifetime. Many people will vote for her in the GE just to get Bill back in the White House.

Her appeal with Hispanics, African Americans and women make her unbeatable in the GE

[Barky Bark]

26. Women in NH are disagreeing with you.

Recent poll this week shows Bernie leading by a small margin on women over Clinton.

Oh, I'd rather have a democratic socialist than a Third Way/DLC/Right-wing "Real Democrat™".

[0rganism]

28. so the positives you raise are

+ not a 75 yo socialist
+ tough as nails
+ extensive foreign policy experience
+ married to popular former president Bill Clinton
+ runs well with Hispanics
+ runs well with African Americans
+ runs well with women

your response suggests that it may have been unfair for me to request avoidance of electability as an argument for support, as that seems to be a big part of her appeal to you. the reason i noted that was to understand some positions that could make her more interesting to me, as electability can swing around a lot over 6 months and i tend not to get hyped about it early-on, but it's possible that her appeal to you is more electoral than ideological -- she looks like the right candidate to wollop the GOP in the general election. that could be enough to go on, especially if she has enough coattails to win back the senate.

this helps me see where you're coming from. thanks.

[Aerows]

39. Bernie Sanders is scaring the crap

out of the establishment Democrats, which is why the Joe Biden trial balloon is being floated.

I have absolutely no idea why they thought Hillary could just sail right in and get elected when she bombed in 2008.

She is doing the exact same things that lost in 2008 and expecting different results, except this time, she also has a deficit of support from even Dems.

[0rganism]

47. i would say her apparent demise has been overstated

she continues to enjoy strong support from Democrats and polls well in GE matchups against the GOP frontrunners.
whether or not that lasts (and i think this is way too early to make arguments from electability)
whether or not it's all based on name recognition
whether or not she has some dark political crime syndicate backing her up
i think it behooves us all to understand what she stands for and what she brings to the table, which was the purpose of this thread.

her actual positions and actions have, to a great extent, been obscured by a media-coordinated witch hunt around what i think most Democrats agree are fake scandals. indeed, some of this is her campaign staff's fault; after all, their job is to generate positive HRC vibes with or without media cooperation. however, some of it is pure M$M bullshit, and that part has a significant impact on the information that becomes available later on.

i do want my vote to be based on solid information about the candidate and his/her positions. also, i like to see what others like about a candidate along the way to forming my opinions.

[frylock]

49. In their mind, the only reason she lost was the novelty of a Black President..

so why not just do a reboot of the 2008 campaign strategy?

[hedda_foil]

59. Now that makes sense.

Thanks for decoding why they made the terrible decision to repeat the failed 2008 strategy. This is probably it.

[Capn Sunshine]

102. This is a wild ass DU supposition

I wrote elsewhere how they went south from the very beginning. It was definitely the schism Armstead writes about, and back then the attitude was if you werent from the East coast or inside the beltway, they didn't want to talk to you. This occurred with the Kerry Campaign . They didn't want any of our (Dean Campaign) demographic research or mailing list, and were even dubious about taking our donor list. By2008, this attitude had hardened and like I told you, those of us involved with National level politics recognized Hillary's Campaign was chock full of every loser and Dem Pimp Beltway hanger on that had at least partially contributed to Kerry's loss.

WE were tired of the "lose with grace, honorable opposition" bullshit. To imbue a racist element to her campaign is totally warrantless. Sure , if you went just by Hillary posters on DU, that might have some merit.

But this tiny bubble in cyberspace does not represent anything except DU.

[hedda_foil]

105. Fair enough, since it is a wild ass supposition, of course. We just invented it now, but...

It's not necessarily accusing her of racism, but it's certainly possible that she and her team decided that they lost in '08 because Obama took the voters of color, who she, Bill and company had considered locked up for Hillary. It's not really that much of a stretch at all. Justifying her loss in that way could, imho, lead to what looks to many (and not just on DU) like a virtual repeat of the plan that failed in 2008. Of course the DC-NYC bubble that you describe would be likely to feed into the campaign's overall mood of invincibility.

[closeupready]

103. Queen Elizabeth is 89, and only recently slowed down.

[DanTex]

33. Electability is very important, regardless of how much people dismiss it.

And Hillary is the most electable candidate running. In fact, electability is probably the most important thing, since given GOP opposition, the actual policy differences between candidates won't matter so much because most of what is being proposed, particularly by Sanders, won't get anywhere in congress. The difference between the GOP and a Dem is much larger than the difference between the Dem candidates, so the top priority is getting a Dem elected.

As far as her policy positions, you can get more details form her website, but some highlights.
Economic proposals that win the praises of the likes of Joe Stiglitz, including increasing minimum wage, raising taxes on wealthy
Union rights and the Employee Free Choice Act
Strong campaign finance reform proposals including overturning CU
Large investments in clean energy
Criminal justice reform, ending mass incarceration

Basically, it's progressive across the board.

She also has a huge amount of experience, is obviously very intelligent and knows a lot about policy and about the world. I also think she would be able to get more done in the face of GOP opposition than anyone else running, based on her political savvy and experience and also her network of allies. And it would be great to elect a woman president.

[0rganism]

35. excellent, thanks!

just what i was looking for. quite helpful.

[Aerows]

40. "Electability is very important"

I missed the part where she was the 44th President of the United States.

[seaglass]

99. Of course electability is important. If many Sanders supports weren't basing some of their support

on electability over issues they would be donating to Jill Stein who is equal to and often better than Bernie is on the issues.

[JI7]

41. you look to the msm to find out who to vote for ?

[0rganism]

48. among other sources, yes

apparently i'm not the only one. you may want to get used to it.

[DCBob]

42. I think your mind is already made up.

But the main reason I am voting for her is because I think she is our best bet to win against the Republicans.

[frylock]

50. So, electability.

[0rganism]

51. my mind is far from made up

i think it's too early to make a case based solely on electability, but that's my opinion.

[DCBob]

52. Hillary is probably the most well known political figure on earth.

Anyone who has been paying attention during past 3 decades should know all they need to know by now to determine if she is the candidate for them.

[0rganism]

54. it's not like i haven't paid attention

i know some things about HRC, not enough to make the call yet.
my retention isn't perfect though, and i may have missed something important along the way.
plus, she may have brought something new to the table or evolved her positions since last i looked.

are you saying if her campaign hasn't convinced me yet i should just fuck off and vote for someone else? because someone might construe your statements along those lines.

[DCBob]

57. She's evolved a bit but I think she's still a centrist with a focus on women's and children's issue.

My biggest complaint about her is her hawkishness. I really wish she were more a peacemonger and I am hopeful she will become more a peacemaker once elected. I get the feeling she is trying to prove she has the cojones to pull the trigger if necessary since many may think as woman she might not.

[reformist2]

46. Because resistance is futile. Because $200 million of SuperPac money can't be wrong.

[kelliekat44]

69. Maybe because you want to win the Presidency??? nt

[JoePhilly]

72. I have a couple reasons why ...

... I'll probably vote for Hillary if the primary in my state matters.

1) Elect-ability. I'm starting with this one mainly to get it out of the way. I am confident that Hillary will beat anyone the GOP puts forward. I am currently not convinced Bernie can. Obama got my primary vote last time by proving to me that he would also beat any one the GOP put forward back in 2008. Bernie could convince me, but that has not happened yet. Keeping the GOP out of the White House is paramount for me. Everything else fails if they take the WH. I realize that lots of Bernie folks do think he could win. Which is fine. I'm not there yet.

2) Would Bernie's approach be an "All-or-nothing" approach. I'm very comfortable with Bernie's positions, and his rhetoric. And if he wins the nomination, I'll vote for him happily, eagerly. The concern however that I have is that Bernie will not compromise when doing so would make some progress but not all of the progress we want. Many of the loudest supporters of Bernie on this site, are against compromise. They hated the ACA. They argued loudly that DOING NOTHING would have been better than the ACA. They were wrong. If Bernie gets in, and does not compromise to make some progress, we get nothing. I'd rather have a President more like Obama, who has actually made tremendous strides in a wide variety of areas. He can't get everything we want all at once, so he's make as much progress as he can. Will Bernie compromise like Obama has, to get real things done? I think Hillary will focus on making as much progress as we can, and won't take an all-or-nothing approach. I'm not sure Bernie will. Going by his loudest supporters here, he won't. So while I agree with most of his policies, his tactical approach to getting what we want must make sense too. Or else we get nothing and make no progress.

Side note: For some on DU, they often want NOTHING to happen, unless the legislation is perfect. I suspect that were Bernie to win the nomination, he'd have to compromise. And the same folks who call Obama a sell-out (and worse), they'd be calling Bernie the same things.

[0rganism]

88. thanks JP

your #2 is very interesting

[brooklynite]

73. How about, because she's a solid mainstream Democrat?

She's pro-choice

She's pro-gay rights

She's pro health-coverage (some will argue that she's not pro-single payer; perhaps that's because she tried to implement that back in 92 and discovered that there wasn't political support for it

She's pro-immigration, and supports a path to citizenship for undocumented

She's pro-progressive taxation and voted against the Bush tax cuts for the 1%

She's anti Citizen's United and pledged to appoint Supreme Court Justices committed to overturning it.

She's pushing for criminal justice reform and an end to mass incarceration of urban minorities

She's pushing for expanded voting rights, including a national program of early voting.

Add to which, she'll have the financial and political resources to run a national campaign against a well funded Republican.

[sheshe2]

78. Kicking you brooklynite.

[jfern]

80. Lets see

>She's pro-choice
She has expressed some support for "partial-birth" abortion bans in the past

>She's pro-gay rights
She was anti SSM marriage in early 2013. Sanders, O'Malley, and Chafee had supported it for years before then.

>She's pro health-coverage (some will argue that she's not pro-single payer; perhaps that's because she tried to implement that back in 92 and discovered that there wasn't political support for it
She just used her SuperPAC to attack Sanders for support single payer

>She's pro-immigration, and supports a path to citizenship for undocumented
She supported deporting those child refugees from Central America

>She's anti Citizen's United and pledged to appoint Supreme Court Justices committed to overturning it.
So anti Citizens United that she's exploiting it to the max by coordinating with a SuperPAC

>She's pushing for criminal justice reform and an end to mass incarceration of urban minorities
A reform of what her husband pushed through?

[0rganism]

89. this is helpful, thanks

your post will help me narrow things down a bit when i'm browsing her position pieces
much appreciated

[PatrickforO]

77. I'm sorry, Organism, but I have to be honest.

If I vote for Clinton it will be because the candidate I'm supporting lost and I hold my nose and check Clinton's name because she is the lesser of evils.

That's the best I can do.

[akbacchus_BC]

91. I understand what you are saying but man, a Democratic candidate is 100 times better than

a frigging republican. The choice is clear, don't you think?

[PatrickforO]

93. Oh absolutely. Especially after watching that vile debate this evening.

They will send the American people down the drain. Now, while Clinton is obviously superior to any of the GOP clown show, she is a third way corporatist who supports 'free trade,' is hawkish, won't even try for single payer health care and won't prosecute or even regulate the crooks on Wall Street.

The other factor, I suppose, is a bit more subjective. I just don't like or trust Clinton. I love photography because if you look closely, you can actually see the story a photo tells about the person in it. When I see pictures of Clinton and look at her facial expressions and especially her eyes, I get the feeling she's going through the motions and doesn't really care much about the 'why,' just about the 'how.' Her eyes are just empty; there's no spark of passion for anyone else, no real desire to help the American people. When I look into that void, I only see cold calculation. She wants the office for it's own sake, I think. Not for ours.

[akbacchus_BC]

81. Nobody can tell you who to vote for!

If Mrs. Clinton is the nominee on the Dem side as opposed to Trump on the GOP side, who will you vote for. Voting is very personal.

Personally, if I were an American, I would vote for Mrs. Clinton. There is no way I would vote for a pucking repuke. Hope you understand.

[0rganism]

84. i can assure you...

if Mrs. Clinton is the nominee, i'll vote for her in the general election over ANY of the jackasses running on the GOP side. that's the easy decision. if you were the Democratic nominee, i'd vote for you over any of them. frankly, i'd vote for a bag of rocks over any of them. it's not a great honor.

the tougher decision is who to support in the primary, which is why i'm asking around.

[akbacchus_BC]

90. Thank you for your response and for being so polite. I know the US voters are at a crossroad as to

whom to vote for! If Mrs. Clinton is the nominee, please consider voting for her and if Mr. Sanders is the nominee, then you have to vote for him.

Can you imagine another republican in charge, the middle east will be annihilated with all their war mongering. The US cannot support that shit, it is bleeding normal Americans to get jobs, rise up and shine. Pucking republicans love wars, it benefits the corporations that support them!

[Lil Missy]

85. Do your own research. your question is rhetorical anyway. you've already decided.

[0rganism]

86. uh huh, that's why i'm here responding to peoples' posts

you know, some posts in this thread have actually given me interesting answers and useful information.

others have given me passive-aggressive non-responses.

feel free to decide which kind of post yours was. be sure to do your own research.

[akbacchus_BC]

92. Don't be so hard on some posters.

We are all fed up of the shit taking place in Washington and Canada.

The assholes conservatives are blaming Washington for inactivity and forgot that President Obama reached out to these fuckers to make America better after George Bush. What did they do, they blocked him all the way until he realised that the bipartisan approach was useless. So when he started using Executive Order, he is now a dictator. You could never please the fucking republicans.

Sorry for the expletives but I hate some republicans and if am banned, so be it!

[ohheckyeah]

96. One of the

most important issues in the U.S. in my opinion is the war on women. I think Hillary is the best candidate to fight that war. So basically, I will vote for her because she's a Democratic woman who has dedicated much of her life to women's rights.

There are many vitally important battles but this is the one I see as imperative to win for this generation and generations to come. Women do after all make up 52% of the population.

[0rganism]

101. that's a good 'un

for males this can get de-prioritized, but it's an issue that directly impacts a majority of the population.
thanks for raising it.

[ohheckyeah]

104. You're welcome.

I fear for my nieces and great nieces.