Thousands died from cluster munitions. Hillary opposed even limiting them.

[Bonobo]

Last edited Wed Aug 26, 2015, 11:33 PM - Edit history (2)

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/9233-senators-eye-curbs-on-cluster-bombs-widening-matter-beyond-israelquots-use

Senators eye curbs on cluster bombs, widening matter beyond Israel's use
By Elana Schor - 02/27/07

Several Senate Democrats are renewing their push to curb the U.S. military’s use of weaponry responsible for civilian casualties in conflicts around the world — notably during the summer war between Israel and Lebanon — a proposal that has split the party’s presidential frontrunners.

Human rights groups long have lobbied to curtail the use of cluster bombs, which disperse “bomblets” over wide areas that can cause civilian deaths years after they are dropped. Democratic lawmakers joined the cause last fall amid growing controversy over Israel’s firing of older U.S.-supplied cluster bombs into Lebanon.

Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) backed that plan while his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sens. Hillary Clinton (N.Y.), Joseph Biden (Del.) and Chris Dodd (Conn.), opposed it – a vote that looms as potential attack ad fodder in a 2008 campaign that is kicking off and going negative especially early.

“For Jewish-American activists who are active because of their concerns about Israel, they are, generally speaking, not going to want to see additional restrictions placed on Israel’s use of U.S. weaponry,” a source close to the Obama camp said.

A Biden spokeswoman said the lawmaker will review the bill thoroughly before deciding how to approach it. Other sponsors of the cluster-weapons limits include Sens. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) and Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.).

ON EDIT: The bill to limit cluster bombs has been re-introduced just they year by Patrick Leahy. Still no word from Hillary on why she opposed it or whether she would still oppose it. Meanwhile, people die everyday from the unexploded cluster bombs, often children.

[Agschmid]

1. Was this a standalone bill?

Was this an amendment? I remember their being an amendment about cluster bombs recently which was on a bill.

This? http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00232

[Bonobo]

2. It was a standalone bill then, and it was recently re-offered. They keep trying.

http://www.leahy.senate.gov/press/leahy-feinstein-re-offer-bill-to-restrict-use-of-cluster-munitions-that-can-harm-innocent-civilians-

And Hillary is on record of opposing it -against President Obama and Sanders and others.

[Agschmid]

3. Wonder why it never passes.

[jeff47]

5. Military doesn't like it.

They're worried about having their hands tied when they really, really need something cluster-bomb-like.

To slightly modify the Churchill quote: What do you get from the Joint Chiefs of Staff? The sum of their fears.

[Recursion]

58. Same reason as land mines: the Korean DMZ and Guantanamo Bay

Those are two places where the US military deploys land mines and has cluster munitions ready, so the Pentagon opposes attempts to restrict those weapons. It's a shame.

[George II]

10. So why didn't Sanders co-sponsor the bill?

[Bonobo]

11. He did. nt

[George II]

14. From your link:

"Washington—Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) today led a group of lawmakers in introducing the Cluster Munitions Civilian Protection Act of 2015, which would restrict the use of dangerous cluster munitions.

In the Senate, the legislation is also co-sponsored by Senators Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), Ben Cardin (D-Md.), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Al Franken (D-Minn.), Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), Patty Murray (D-Wash.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) and Ron Wyden (D-Ore.). Congressman Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) is introducing companion legislation in the House of Representatives."

No mention of Sanders?

[Bonobo]

15. Oh you mean why didn't he co-sponsor it AGAIN?

9 co-sponsors isn't enough and co-sponsoring it the first time is not enough?

And yet you have NO OPINION about Hillary who opposed it?

That, George the Second, is hilarious.... and sad.

[George II]

21. Well, if Sanders thought this was an important issue, don't you think he'd co-sponsor...

....the legislation?

You're just fishing.

And what's your problem with my screen name?

Keep laughing..........

[beam me up scottie]

20. Sponsoring it the first time is Not good enough Bernie?

[Bonobo]

22. ....

[beam me up scottie]

24. Reminds me of another George II.

[Divernan]

27. Quite so, old chap! Pip, pip & all that!

[beam me up scottie]

29. That one too!

So many Georges, so little time...

[Fuddnik]

33. Or even another!

[beam me up scottie]

35. Seinfeld, Mission Accomplished, there are many Georges.

All so proud of themselves, puffed up and strutting around.

And always wondering why no one is applauding.

[BeanMusical]

40. Lol, Costanza was the first one who came to mind.

[beam me up scottie]

41. OMG!!! That's who I picture when I read his posts!

[BeanMusical]

45. Lol!

[Fearless]

32. Well that's awkward!

[rhett o rick]

61. LOL. Yeah that would have prevented children from getting killed. You are soooo desparate.

Hillary Clinton and George Bush promoted the lies that lead to the deaths of thousands maybe tens of thousands of children and you want to know "why didn't Sanders ... yada yada yada"

The Iraq War was the most disastrous decision made by this country in centuries. And you don't care. You may try to blame Bush but want to give H. Clinton a pass. Why?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Maybe she'll "evolve" on killing and maiming people when she's prez.

I wouldn't count on it, though.

[rhett o rick]

62. It's not like she wants the deaths of the poor in other countries, she just thinks that

profits for oil companies is more important.

While the poor in countries are protesting in the streets, she promoted fracking to their governments. Chevron owes her big time.

[seabeyond]

6. i thought it was an amendment DOD appro bill in '06 and they are reintroducing it as stand alone. nt

[Juicy_Bellows]

4. Cluster bombs are nasty, indiscriminate tools of death.

They shouldn't be used.

[Uncle Joe]

7. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Bonobo.

[George II]

8. WHY all of these negative Clinton posts, especially frm an article 8 years old?

[Bonobo]

12. People are still dying from cluster bombs. The bill has been re-introduced.

I know Sanders supports it.

What about Hillary?

Don't you think it is a reasonable issue to seek clarification on since we are also talking so much about the deaths of 2 people from gun violence? That thread has over 300 replies.

The question is: Why do you want to hide Hillary's support for cluster munitions?

[George II]

17. Clinton isn't in the Senate, she won't be voting on any of this legislation..

Why are you asking about Clinton's position here, ask her or representatives of her campaign.

This is just a smear of an almost decade-old issue.

[Bonobo]

38. I hope you stay on this thread.

You supply more gold than South Africa.

Hillary's position on this issue is pretty relevant considering she would be, if elected, the leader of the largest military and supplier of cluster munitions.

[riversedge]

51. It is only relevent to your continued smears

[Doctor_J]

60. so her Senate votes are not predictive of her policies as president?

Is this a joke?

[Fuddnik]

34. She'll let us know in Jan. 2017, silly.

[George II]

39. People are dying of starvation, exposure, drought, etc....I don't see you worried about that.

Only issues that you can dig up from the past to smear Hillary Clinton.

[JoeyT]

42. So in a thread about a weapon that kills indiscriminately,

often children, your primary concern is....People being mean to a politician.

That says a lot more about you than you probably realize.

[beam me up scottie]

43. Yes it does.

Well said, JoeyT.

[Chef Eric]

13. This is information. I think information is useful.

Especially for those people who are trying to determine who is worthy of their support.

Is eight years too long ago? What is your official cutoff date?

[cali]

16. oh I think it has everything to do with the deluge of negative Bernie posts

That have appeared over the past couple of days.

[Divernan]

18. Because cluster bombs STILL kill & maim 3rd world children & grandchildren.

And all those children and grandchildren who were maimed and killed 8 years ago, and which you dismiss as irrelevant since it was reported in an article "8 years old"?

Well guess what, George. They are still frigging dead or maimed. But not to worry - since they were all 3rd world children and grandchildren, you go right ahead and give Hillary a pass on yet another vote. It's not like she's ever expressed one word of regret about that vote. But you know what, even if this criticism gains traction, she can evolve until the cows come home - but it will never make one of those children or grandchildren whole again, or bring them back to life, will it?

All those kids maimed/killed by cluster bombs, which Senator Clinton voted against banning? Well all those sweet children had grandmothers. Everytime HRC gushes about the joys of being a grandmother, I want to put her in a room with the grandmothers of those maimed and murdered children.
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2008-03-18/article/29503

Commentary: Hillary Clinton’s Shameful Vote on Cluster Bombs
By Paul Rockwell
Tuesday March 18, 2008

In her autobiography, Living History, Senator Hillary Clinton portrays herself as an advocate for children, a defender of women and human rights. In fact, the Clintons have a long history of sacrificing the rights, even the lives of children, for political expediency. It is time to set the record straight.

On September 6, 2006, a Senate bill—a simple amendment to ban the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas—presented Senator Clinton with a timely opportunity to protect the lives of children throughout the world.
The cluster bomb is one of the most hated and heinous weapons in modern war, and its primary victims are children. Senator Obama voted for the amendment to ban cluster bombs. Senator Clinton, however, voted with the Republicans to kill the humanitarian bill, an amendment in accord with the Geneva Conventions, which already prohibit the use of indiscriminate weapons in populated areas.

All senators are expected to inform themselves on the issues before they cast a vote. The evidence is overwhelming. It is hard to believe that Senator Clinton was unaware of the humanitarian crisis when she voted to continue the use of cluster bombs in cities and populated areas. A U.N. weapons commission called cluster bombs “weapons of indiscriminate effect.” For years the international press reported the horrific consequences of cluster bombs on civilians. On April 10, 2003, for example, Asia Times described the carnage in Baghdad hospitals: “The absolute majority of patients are women and children, victims of shrapnel, and most of all, fragments of cluster bombs.” Reporting from a hospital in Hillah, The Mirror, a British newspaper, became graphic: “Shrapnel peppered their bodies. Blackened the skin. Smashed heads. Tore limbs. A doctor reports that ‘all the injuries you see were caused by cluster bombs. The majority of the victims were children who died because they were outside.’”

Even after wars subside, after treaties are signed, after belligerents return home, cluster bombs wreak havoc on civilian life. Up to 20 percent of the bomblets fail to detonate on the first round, only to become landmines that later explode on playgrounds and farmlands. Children are drawn to cluster bomb canisters, the deadly duds that look like beer cans or toys before they explode.

[pnwmom]

19. Because they're trying to distract people from the issue of gun control in the U.S. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

23. No, they're not. This has nothing to do with gun control.

Another bullshit claim from pnwmom who doesn't support Hillary no matter how it looks.

[Divernan]

25. Well then, let's consider land mines, shall we?

Clinton on landmines

Of course Senator Clinton did not expect her vote on cluster bombs to become an issue in a presidential campaign. But that vote is one of many examples in a pattern of indifference to the welfare of children in the Developing World.

Because Clinton is now taking credit for the White House years, when she was a partner in power, we should also look closely at the Clinton policy regarding landmines, an issue of great concern to parents, to all those who care for children. The United States is the leading manufacturer of landmines. For families across the rest of the globe, landmines are buried terror. More than 100 million landmines are deployed in over 60 countries worldwide—nine million in Angola, 10 million in Cambodia. About 20,000 M14 antipersonnel mines are buried in the mountain areas of Yong-do, South Korea. According to U.N. estimates, 26,000 people, mostly civilians in developing countries, are killed or mutilated by landmines every year. In rural areas landmines are so ubiquitous and lethal, peasants risk their lives to earn a living tilling the soil and planting crops.

The worldwide movement to ban landmines burgeoned in the Clinton years. It was a visionary U.S. citizen, Jody Williams of Vermont, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts to end the ignominy of landmines. And it was primarily in defense of children that Princess Diana, speaking from a minefield in Angola, raised international awareness about devastation caused by weapons from the West.

In December 1997, 137 nations, more than two-thirds of the world, signed the Ottawa treaty, an agreement to ban the use, production, stockpiling and transfer of anti-personnel landmines. How did the Clintons respond to world opinion, to the humanitarian movement against landmines?

President Clinton flat out refused to become party to the Ottawa Convention. As he put it, “I could not sign in good conscience the treaty banning landmines.” In “good conscience”?!

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2008-03-18/article/29503

Landmines are not good for children, Hillary. Or grandchildren, either.

[pnwmom]

28. Do they sell land mines in Target and Walmart here?

Somehow I missed that.

Hillary was the First Lady, but she is a separate person who will have a different Presidency. She has ALWAYS been more liberal than her husband.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Who was on the board of Walmart the nation's largest retailer of guns?

“As a shareholder and director of our company, I’m always proud of Wal-Mart and what we do and the way we do it better than anybody else,” current Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said in a speech in 1990, when she was first lady of Arkansas.

[BeanMusical]

44. +1

[beam me up scottie]

46. What kind of person brings up guns in a thread about victims of cluster bombs?

[SunSeeker]

52. This OP was a deflection post after Bernie again failed to call for gun control.

After yet another gun massacre.

Like right after Charleston, Bernie failed to make the obvious statement. It is the statement Alison Parker's father and fiance made today, that we must do something about unstable people getting guns. That we must have common sense gun control.

[beam me up scottie]

53. Bernie not only called for gun control, he voted for it:

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

But let's hold Bernie's feet to the fire, by all means: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251550065

[Bonobo]

54. Sun Seeker, on gun control, I agree with you. Here is a list of demands I am drawing up to deliver

to Sanders.

A ban on the sale of assault weapons

Limits to firearm magazine capacities

Mandatory background checks for online and gun-show purchases

Prohibitions on cross-state conceal-carry

Enforcement of trigger lock laws

Bans on underage firearm possession

72-hour background checks

Increases on minimum prison sentences for crimes involving firearms

[George II]

26. BINGO! Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Prove it, George.

[L0oniX]

9. K & R

[SoapBox]

37. Kicked

& Rec'd

[SunSeeker]

48. Meanwhile, 30,000 Americans die every year from guns, often children. nt

[beam me up scottie]

49. See post 46:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=549957

[Bonobo]

50. You're right. Here is what we need. Tell me if you agree.

A ban on the sale of assault weapons

Limits to firearm magazine capacities

Mandatory background checks for online and gun-show purchases

Prohibitions on cross-state conceal-carry

Enforcement of trigger lock laws

Bans on underage firearm possession

72-hour background checks

Increases on minimum prison sentences for crimes involving firearms

[SunSeeker]

55. We need a universal federal background check, which needs more than 72 hours.

72 hours is not enough time to pull up mental health records and restraining orders issued, etc. Under our current law, a delay in confirming records will result in that questionable person getting a gun.

We also need to overturn that 2005 law Bernie voted for that gave gun manufacturers special immunities.

But a thorough, universal background check on ALL gun sales is crucial. You should allow at least 5-10 business days for that, not just 72 hours.

That 72 - hour rule is how Dylann Roof was able to get his gun, even though the background check was still going on, and if it had been allowed to conclude, he would not have passed the background check:

The purchase continued to classified as "delayed'' with a decision pending. But firearms dealers are permitted to transfer weapons to buyers after the three-day period, if there is no denial.

"By Thursday, April 16,'' Comey said, "the case was still listed as delayed-pending, so the gun dealer exercised its lawful discretion and transferred the gun to Dylann Roof.''

Two months later, the weapon was allegedly used in the Charleston shooting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/fbi-chief-roof-gun-shooting/29966337/

[Bonobo]

56. You know what? I agree with you.

I'm going to try to research Hillary's concrete proposals on gun control so I can dangle THAT over Bernie too.

I know I can do it myself, but if you HAPPEN to have an easy at hand link to Hillary's concrete gun control positions, I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance if you do, it's okay if you don't.

[mikehiggins]

57. also smart guns, weapons that can only be used by the legitimate owner

Actually, though, its quite likely the "tipping point" was passed several years ago when someone discovered that there were more than enough guns in this nation to have every man, woman and child own one. How do you combat stuff like that?

[Doctor_J]

59. she is the candidate of wall street, the lobbyists, and the establishment

There isn't a single issue on which she's fought against the dc insiders. Want more of the same? Vote for Clinton.