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Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:43 PM

What percentage of lefties buy into the....

Democrats and Republicans are the same meme?

I'd say it's no more than 2%. No science behind that and I have never seen that polled. I just figure the percentage has to be insignificant, regardless.

71 replies, 6041 views

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Arrow 71 replies Author Time Post
Reply What percentage of lefties buy into the.... (Original post)
Cary Feb 2013 OP
Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #1
Cary Feb 2013 #2
Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #5
Cary Feb 2013 #8
Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #9
Cary Feb 2013 #16
Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2013 #18
Recursion Feb 2013 #40
Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2013 #58
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #62
Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2013 #71
Doc_Technical Feb 2013 #3
Bennyboy Feb 2013 #4
Cary Feb 2013 #6
Bennyboy Feb 2013 #7
Amonester Feb 2013 #10
datasuspect Feb 2013 #14
Cary Feb 2013 #23
datasuspect Feb 2013 #24
Cary Feb 2013 #25
datasuspect Feb 2013 #26
Cary Feb 2013 #30
datasuspect Feb 2013 #32
Cary Feb 2013 #42
Cary Feb 2013 #27
datasuspect Feb 2013 #28
Cary Feb 2013 #31
datasuspect Feb 2013 #33
Cary Feb 2013 #34
datasuspect Feb 2013 #35
graham4anything Feb 2013 #38
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #49
Cary Feb 2013 #52
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #61
Cary Feb 2013 #66
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #67
Cary Feb 2013 #68
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #69
Cary Feb 2013 #70
NoPasaran Feb 2013 #13
Liberal_Stalwart71 Feb 2013 #19
Myrina Feb 2013 #37
blkmusclmachine Feb 2013 #11
quaker bill Feb 2013 #12
Cary Feb 2013 #20
graham4anything Feb 2013 #39
graham4anything Feb 2013 #44
Cary Feb 2013 #46
Jamaal510 Feb 2013 #59
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #15
Cary Feb 2013 #22
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #29
Cary Feb 2013 #48
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #50
Cary Feb 2013 #51
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #55
Cary Feb 2013 #60
graham4anything Feb 2013 #41
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #63
Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2013 #17
Cary Feb 2013 #21
Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2013 #47
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #64
Cary Feb 2013 #65
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2013 #36
Recursion Feb 2013 #43
Cary Feb 2013 #45
MuseRider Feb 2013 #53
PETRUS Feb 2013 #54
MuseRider Feb 2013 #56
Amimnoch Feb 2013 #57

Response to Cary (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:48 PM

1. While of course they are not the same it's disingenuous not to note how far right dem's have gone

Obama has sad himself he would have seemed like moderate republican during the Regan years.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:53 PM

2. I attribute that to pragmatism.

As most people acknowledge.

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Response to Cary (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:55 PM

5. Yes that pragmatic let the bankers do what they will approach the Dems and Reps both agreed on.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:54 PM

8. You don't take out the banksters when you're on the brink.

Unless you want to cut off your nose to spite your face.

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Response to Cary (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:03 PM

9. The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act cut off a lot more then our nose. Deregulating the Bankers was a scam

perpetrated against the American people with help on both sides of the aisle.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:17 AM

16. II doubt it.

I would not have been in favor of the repeal of Glass Steagall but it didn't regulate investment banks so we would still have had credit default swaps.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:22 AM

18. Obama is a pragmatist, not necessarily a partisan or ideologue. The good news is that the

DLC is no longer a strong force in the Democratic Party. The problem, however, is with the Blue Dog Democrats who represent red states. As long as we have to have these Democrats, it'll *appear* that there's little difference. But there is a BIG difference!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:11 AM

40. The blue dogs were essentially wiped out in 2010, and nobody's pushing another 50 state strategy...

... to get them back.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:26 PM

58. Blue Dogs are not wiped out. There are fewer of them, though. Th 50 state strategy was

successful in getting more Democrats from Red states; however, it was counterproductive when it came to progressive legislation, obviously. I just hope we learned our lessons. Let the Red states become more Blue; then we can get better Democrats...I hope.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:17 PM

62. He is indeed an idealogue

He calls himself a moderate Republican, and believes in destroying public education, escalating drone murder, top-heavy tax cuts, cuts in SS benefits, and insurance mandates. The only group for whom that's pragmatic is the corporations and their board members.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #62)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 04:11 PM

71. I disagree with you and think your posts are often drenched in hyperbole, but I respect your opinion

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:54 PM

3. What do you mean by "the same"?

Pepsi Cola and Dr. Pepper are not "the same"
but what they have in common far outweighs
their differences.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:55 PM

4. Sadly they kind of are..

 

With few exception. They are all rich. Mostly attorneys who are owned lock stock and barrel by the Corporations that keep them in money to get elected and to stay in office. Then after leaving office with their gold plated retirements, gold plated healthcare all set up for life then they cash in becoming lobbyists for the very same corporations that gave them money and influenced votes.

Look at the financial holdings of my two Senators. Pelosi and Feinstein. Both of whom have VERY VERY VERY rich husbands who are involved in banking, development etc.

Of course there are striking differences to in regards to religion (even though how many democrats are Catholic?) and envirnment policy and race, but when it comes down to it the Corporations own both parties.

I could never ever vote for a republican but it is getting harder and harder to vote for a democrat without holding my nose. I feel that NONE of my elected officials are in it for ME and not themselves and their well connected cronies.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:00 PM

6. Where in any modern society has there ever been any real force...

without money people?

The proper goal is balance. Without balance you get The French Revolution.

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Response to Cary (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:31 PM

7. VOILA'!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Response to Cary (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:20 AM

10. Well, today it's more "Les Misérables" without The French Revolution.

Since any even slightly viewed as being potentially 'violent' revolt will quickly find itself blown out of this world in a few seconds (if not milliseconds...).

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Response to Cary (Reply #6)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:12 AM

23. Chaos, murder, mayhem...

No thank you.

Hint: The French Revolution was an abject failure. The end result: Napoleon Bonaparte.

You want that? Seriously?

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Response to Cary (Reply #23)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:18 AM

25. Hardly.

I am a man who has studied history. I don't go for wild, reckless ideology.

Life, and thus history, cannot be reduced to some ideological formula which is a lesson that both extremes, left and right, don't want to learn. At the end of the day you have to focus on the value of each human being or you will get lost in your own bullshit.

You seem to not want to learn. Are you someone who doesn't want to learn?

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Response to Cary (Reply #25)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:21 AM

30. Do the University of Illinois and Washington University at St. Louis count?

Rule one: don't ask questions that you don't already know the answer to.

Amateur.

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Response to Cary (Reply #30)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #32)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:12 AM

42. Whose "muster" would that be?

I have a top notch education and you can't take it away from me.

The fact of your melt down here speaks to your own issues.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:20 AM

27. And you didn't answer my question about Napoleon Bonaparte.

You really want that? You really think you can write off a world war started by a dictator as merely "a few eggs broken?"

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Response to Cary (Reply #27)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:22 AM

31. The question I asked you was about Napoleon Bonaparte.

You still haven't answered it.

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Response to Cary (Reply #31)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:23 AM

34. You can't answer a simple, direct question.

Unless and until you can do that you have no credibility and your opinion of my "signal to noise ratio" is meaningless.

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Response to Cary (Reply #34)


Response to Cary (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:00 AM

38. +a zillion on your whole thread here.

 

it must sound kool to say burn it down so many times
of course without caring about the morning after

and what I can't get is
Bush family was reviled with 41
Bush family was reviled with W43
yet burn it down and what does it get
Back to the future the day after burning it down with Bush family Starring Jeb

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Response to Cary (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:32 AM

49. You want to just let the country slide into fascism?

really? Not fight back at all?

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:01 PM

52. Are you saying Democrats are fascists?

Really?

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Response to Cary (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:14 PM

61. I don't know

They've been in charge now for 6 years, more or less. Here's some of what's happened

1. The wars have continued, "defense" spending continues to ruin the budget
2. The drone program has been continued
3. SS has been put on the table for bargaining
4. More of the tax burden has been put on the middle class and working poor
5. The criminal bankers have been taken off the hook, and granted immunity for all of their crimes
6. The health care of the nation has been given lock, stock, and barrel to the blood-sucking health "insurance" corporations
7. The move to completely give education over to corporations has accelerated
8. Right-wing media consolidation has gotten worse
9. Gun proliferation has gotten worse
10. Torture continues
11. NDAA

All of these anti-American, anti-democratic initiatives have been supported by Dems. What do you think?

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:14 PM

66. I think it's a rotten shame that

we have some squishy lefties who can't hold the course.

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Response to Cary (Reply #66)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:29 AM

67. We seem to be two sides of the same coin

You think it's a shame that "lefties can't hold the course", whatever that means. I think that it's a shame that Dems continue to drag us to the right.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:33 AM

68. No one is dragging anyone.

We are a center left nation at the moment, which is exactly where we should be.

"Conservatives" have worked very hard on dragging us to the right and they have failed. Now is not the time to whine. Now is the time to make the best of the fact that our real enemies are down. That doesn't mean we make the same extremist error that "conservatives" made and amazingly keep making. It means choosing our battles carefully wisely.

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Response to Cary (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:11 AM

69. Center left nation?

The people, yes. The government is far, far to the right of all but a couple among the developed world. Obama's ideology, in the other nations of the world, would be so far to the right as to garner almost no support in a general election.

Once again, as usual, the 3rd Way Dems speak in bromides, with no solutions, and bash liberals for the state of the nation. DU has a growing subculture that sounds suspiciously like hate radio in that regard

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:21 PM

70. I have held minor office.

I learned most of all that politics wasn't for me. I am the kind of person who cuts right to the chase and gets things done. In my minor office the job I took on, knowing it would be the end of my tenure, was to re-do a lobby in a large condominium.

Mind you I have no design skills whatsoever and had very little to do with the design. I just got it done.

Before me the building spent $100,000 on the famous architect who designed the building. They solicited comments from everyone and what they ended up with, trying to please everyone, pleased absolutely no one and the $100,000 was utterly wasted. I was determined to not repeat that experience.

The very first thing I did when I took on the project was to solicit owners to be on the lobby committee. Everything was made public during the whole process. Pretty much the design was done by outstanding architects and someone in the building who had excellent taste.

Guess what happened? I was run out of office on a rail. People didn't like this or that, but where were they when the work was done? I spent hours and hours on that committee. And the other thing was that we came within our budget, which meant that yes, certain aspects were done on the cheap. We weighed each decision carefully and did things that could be easily re-done on the cheap, like cladding concrete columns with aluminum. But of course people complained bitterly about a $2,000 expense in a $500,000 project.

So I have little respect for people like that, whom I consider to be rabble. Decisions have to be made. Hard choices have to be made. Someone like Barack Obama, who didn't have to be President because he could have been anything he wanted to be, deserves the benefit of the doubt. And yes, I gave that benefit to George Bush too until he proved unworthy.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:05 AM

13. Holding your nose might have affected the supply of oxygen to your brain

Nancy Pelosi isn't one of your senators. She's a member of the House of Representatives.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:23 AM

19. They are not the same, but money DOES make it more difficult to choose.

The good news is that both the president and his vice president come from modest means. When Biden was in the Senate, he was one of the least wealthy senators.

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Response to Bennyboy (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:37 AM

37. ^^ Bennyboy for the win.

Thank you.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 05:00 AM

11. 1 Party, 2 Faces.

Vive la différence!

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:27 AM

12. I don't know

I know there is pleny of it here, but I have rarely run into it anywhere else.

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:01 AM

20. That's kind of the point.

Me too. In fact the only people I run into who might be pushing that particular meme are Ron Paul cultists and I find them to be incredibly annoying. They remind me of LaRouchies.

On the other hand I like them because they stir up the "conservative" pot.

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Response to Cary (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:01 AM

39. Yup again and again on both these

 

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #12)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:16 AM

44. Most democratic voters on the outside of this board are 93%plus with President Obama

 

and the vast, vast majority of those voters will be thrilled with Hillary in 2016

add the others to the republicans and there are not enough of those to get anywhere near 2016

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:20 AM

46. And we need to keep our focus and to remember that. n/t

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #44)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:56 PM

59. And there was a poll once showing that he has an 80%+ approval

with liberals in general, and a poll showing that a majority of Americans approve of his drone policy. It wouldn't seem like this to a person who only goes by the opinions on here.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:06 AM

15. Isn't it the centrist, Third Way types that see both Parties as alike enough that they take

a bit from each side seeking the middle spot between them? The entire premise of centrism is that the Parties are the same, both are partly wrong and partly right, only a hybrid middle ground is authentic they say, claiming that partisans on both sides are extremists.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:07 AM

22. Actually it seems to be the radicals who are pushing this meme.

But your baby splitting, pox on both houses hypothesis does have merit.

I guess I'm baby splitting a little there myself? It's hard to generalize but I think what you're saying is the strategy that certain people are trying to deploy. I do know that certain "conservative" elements want to push the pox on both houses meme in order to dissuade lefties from going to the polls.

We know they want to suppress the vote because they know that if we vote they can't win. So....

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Response to Cary (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:21 AM

29. What does 'seems' mean? Do you have specifics to offer?

I'm saying that centrism and Third Way say 'both Parties are to blame' and claim that the righteous place is balanced between the two, meaning they think the Parties are the same to a great extent, differences are only on the margins. So a 'centrist' sees Republicans as every bit as correct as Democrats and Democrats just as incorrect as Republicans.
Also, Third Way uses the term 'radical centrists' proudly on it's own website. They say they are the radicals.
"“Both the Grover Norquist-led campaign on the right against any new revenue and pledges on the left against any changes to Social Security and Medicare will keep us from a balanced deal and doom our ability to handle the fiscal cliff and secure our nation’s future. Today, the demands made by the coalition on the left to leave Social Security and Medicare on autopilot will ensure that America faces chronic deficits for decades to come and guarantees the insolvency of the same critical safety net programs we spent a century trying to create.”

Of course, no one is saying 'no changes' or 'auto pilot' those are characterizations of calls for lifting the cap instead of making cuts. But note the scant criticism of the Norquist right and the long winded verbiage characterizing other views in terms that bear no resemblance to reality.
http://www.thirdway.org/press_releases/195

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:30 AM

48. "Seems" means that there are no hard answers.

I don't feel comfortable making such broad generalizations about large groups of people without qualifying those generalizations. Even seemingly identical groups of people tend to break down over time.

That said, generalizations are necessary.

I don't deny that there are these groups out there but it sure seems to me that these groups you identify are marginal. I tend to be mainstream and moderate even though "conservatives" and some liberals have accused me of being a radical leftist.

I find your lumping of mainstream Democrats and mainstream Republicans to be illogical and over the top. I am a mainstream Democrat and I am nothing like a "conservative." I don't agree with them on anything.

It seems to me that your perspective is skewed.

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Response to Cary (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:39 AM

50. I said nothing of mainstream Democrats, nor of mainstream Republicans. Where do you get that?

I was talking about centrists and you translate that into 'mainstream'? And accuse me of lumping the mainstream together? I don't think of Third Way and Centrists folks as mainstream Democrats, Third Way exists aside from the mainstream, that's why they are the Third Way in a two party system. Centrists, half of each Party. Not the mainstream of either Party.
Mainstream is your term, not my own. If you wish to take issue with a person's words, you need to use their actual words, not your own revision of those words. Basic honesty calls for that. When you use your words and then calling them over the top and illogical, that is over the top and illogical.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:57 AM

51. You can get upset over my interpretation of your words.

That's fine with me.

But please understand that your condescension and lectures, not so much.

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Response to Cary (Reply #51)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:06 PM

55. Those were not my words, they were words you wrote to argue with because you did not

want to address what I actually said. I spoke of Third Way and centrists, they are not the mainstream. You may want to call them that, but I sure as fuck don't. And more to the point, I didn't.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:02 PM

60. It's clear to me that you're getting bent out of shape

for no reason other than you want to get bent out of shape.

Go for it. Get really angry. Burst a blood vessel over it.

It doesn't bother me at all.

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Response to Cary (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:12 AM

41. +A ZILLION again

 

Ralph Nader threw the election in 2000 to Bush doing this

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Response to Cary (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:22 PM

63. By "radicals" you mean those who think health care is a right,

public schools are vital, clean air and clean water are rights, the pentagon budget is 10 times too large, rich people should pay at least as much in taxes as working people, and killing American citizens without trials is wrong.

Yep - radical.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:59 AM

17. Neither party is perfect

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:37 AM - Edit history (1)

but it's not all that hard to see the genuine differences between the two parties, not to mention just how totally insane the GOP is. And when is the last time the GOP supported policies that didn't just help the wealthy 1-2% in the country? Have they supported anything even remotely progressive and/or anything to help curb some of the excesses of the Bush (mis-)Administration? The policies that Democrats support sometimes are flawed or don't go far enough but it's never hard to figure out where their intentions/loyalties lie. Republicans OTOH...............

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:04 AM

21. "Conservatives" are the enemy.

The Republican Party is the tail of the "conservative" dog. As such it is very different from the Democrats.

We forget that fact at our own peril. Hey, things could be much, much worse. It seems to me that some of us want to forget that fact and when we snooze at the polls we lose.

What if we had a President McCain, or a President Romney?

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Response to Cary (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:25 AM

47. I shudder to think where we would be with Romney or McCain as POTUS

Sarah Palin as VPOTUS would be bad enough................

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Response to Cary (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:28 PM

64. There are a LOT of conservatives who call themselves Dems

and yes, they are the enemy. Please tell us what might be different.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:46 PM

65. "Conservatives" aren't conservative.

They are fascists.

You seem to be rather eager to take your eye off the ball.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:32 AM

36. Imperial policies are the same. The parties are different.

As long as we pursue empire, we the people play second fiddle to foreign goals.

That is the nature of empires.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:13 AM

43. Straight, white, employed males like me can afford to think that way

Less privileged people can't.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:17 AM

45. Only the top 1% can afford to think like that.

And even they are likely to be adversely affected by the concentration of wealth brought on largely out of "conservative" policies.

The parties are not the same and buying into that meme is a sucker's play. Modern economies require a flatter distribution of wealth and income. That's not communism. It's reality and why that fact isn't more broadly accepted I do not know, but I do know that generally Democrats understand it and Republicans don't.

That right there is a huge difference.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:04 PM

53. Oh I don't know.

I hear it all the time. Democrats and Republicans say that. Not the tea baggers of course but regular, old conservative types say that. So 2% is a very low estimate IMO but that is simply my own experience.

You can count my household as not seeing much difference, not anymore, not for a while.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:05 PM

54. Dunno

To me, a more interesting question would be what percentage of nonvoters (around 40% of us!) hold this view.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:19 PM

56. That would be interesting.

I would love to know how many people do not vote because they feel exactly this.

I really don't know anyone, voters or non voters who feel like our government has any concerns about helping the people. It is so little that it seems to them to be a smokescreen. It is very sad. I was once a happy Democrat. Now a sort of happy unaffiliated voter.

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Response to PETRUS (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:22 PM

57. I would so rec this reply alone if i could! nt.

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