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Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:35 AM

Can state democrats filibuster these republican electoral vote rigging bills in VA, PA, etc.?

Talk me down.

16 replies, 1392 views

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Reply Can state democrats filibuster these republican electoral vote rigging bills in VA, PA, etc.? (Original post)
RedSpartan Jan 2013 OP
PoliticAverse Jan 2013 #1
RedSpartan Jan 2013 #2
brooklynite Jan 2013 #8
blue_heron Jan 2013 #3
Proud Liberal Dem Jan 2013 #4
karynnj Jan 2013 #13
Proud Liberal Dem Jan 2013 #14
karynnj Jan 2013 #16
SouthernDonkey Jan 2013 #5
Johnny2X2X Jan 2013 #6
RDANGELO Jan 2013 #7
lancer78 Jan 2013 #9
ShadowLiberal Jan 2013 #10
Cosmocat Jan 2013 #11
octoberlib Jan 2013 #12
Johnny2X2X Jan 2013 #15

Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:47 AM

1. Most State legislatures don't support the possibility of a filibuster...

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:48 AM

2. Then we are, very possibly, f'd.

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Response to RedSpartan (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:51 AM

8. Assuming they go through

A lot of crackpot bills get introduced in State legislatures.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 09:54 AM

3. Not many states have filibuster

I found below link

Good example of when a filibuster would be a useful tool for minority! Especially when the elected 'minority' really represents the 'majority' of presidential voters!

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:02 AM

4. I don't believe so but here's some things to think about:

1. A lot of people aren't really aware of this plan yet and the more we talk about it, inform people, shine a light on it, the less likely they will be successful.

2. If they are successful, it doesn't necessarily guarantee them victory. After all, as the 2008 primaries demonstrated, there were lots of areas that Hillary won in the primary that Obama wasn't able to carry in the general in 2008 and 2010. Depending on who the Democrats nominate in 2016 (or beyond), we can potentially make inroads in to "red" areas. Who's to say that some districts won't go blue or purple......eventually.

3. The Republicans might be able to extend their "electoral life" by this scheme (as well as gerrymandering) but can never make it impenetrable. Even "red" states like Indiana and Missouri reject extremists and the demographics of these states will continue changing to their disadvantage, so eventually they're going to be running low on voters.

4. If the system is rigged to where states are giving most of their votes to Republicans whom don't win the popular vote, it is likely going to backfire for them at some point.

5. Some REPUBLICANS are rebelling against this idea: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/25/1494831/gop-florida-house-speaker-blasts-plan-to-rig-electoral-college/?mobile=nc

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #4)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:57 AM

13. Good points

I think we need to win the argument on your 1). I suspect that the Republicans will try to use the argument that doing this moves the control down to more local level. Their argument would be that it is unfair to give ALL (say) VA's votes to someone who won (say) 55%. If not countered, this could resonate - I think the Democrats would be wise to argue for election by popular vote. That kind of takes their (spurious) argument and says - we think the person wanted by the most voters should win. (Note that the Republicans did not care that Gore won the popular vote in addition to likely really winning the EC vote.)

I do think there would be a major uproar if a candidate won the popular vote by as much as Obama did and then lost due to games like this.

One problem is that the Constitution gives to the states the responsibility to choose the electors. This is a case where our Constitution's age shows itself. The founders really were not proposing a real democracy.

As to 2), obviously different candidates - or just different years, will lead to different results. I would be careful of arguing that just because a candidate did better in a state in the primary, that they have a significantly better chance of winning it in the general. (I do agree you can easily make the case they won't do worse.) I think what we need to do is fight this technique rather than hope that we can have a candidate that appeals to the Republican base. It would be unfair to HRC to expect that she could do that.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #13)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:34 AM

14. I agree with you

Hopefully, we can resist such efforts in the first place. Thankfully, it sounds like some Republicans in Florida and Virginia aren't crazy about the proposal either, which, of course, makes our argument that this is a bad idea even stronger IMHO. I also agree with you about state control of elections. Personally, I think that we need to amend the Constitution (yeah I know, not likely to happen) so that the Federal Government can create a universal election system like Canada's (and most other countries?). As we have seen in recent elections, having 50 different states all with different election rules can create trainwrecks like we saw in 2000- though, like with a lot of things, part of the reason that it's started getting messier IMHO is that Republicans at the state level have been screwing with the election rules in their efforts to disenfranchise Democratic-leaning voters and make it easier for them to rig elections in their favor. I personally believe we need universal standards to ensure fairness and integrity in our election system.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:52 AM

16. Absolutely agree with you

Both 2000 and 2004 were lost to some state's running dysfunctional elections - for which there was and is no recourse. 2000 was more obvious - with the felons list that included minority votes, likely to be Democrats who were not felons to a ballot that stole Gore votes - giving some to Buchanan and invalidating entirely others. In 2004, Blackwell simply assigned fewer voting machines to Democratic strongholds than they had in the primary - resulting in 4 plus hour waits often outside in the cold November rain. (I have immense respect and admiration for any who stood there for that long rather than be disfranchised.) They also had the candidates listed in different order in co-located districts - leading to loss of votes when tabulated in the other district. ( Inner city voters were as unlikely to vote for the extreme RW candidate as the Palm beach Jews for Buchanan in 2000.) In a fair race, Kerry would have won Ohio.

Before thinking that is the past and it is over - look at it from an objective Republican insider POV - the last Presidential race they fairly won was 1988. (and that was a dirty campaign!) then consider that the demographics are moving in our favor.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 10:41 AM

5. This is the kind of thing we need to bring up in response to

all the gun nut posts about "they're trampling our 2nd amendment!" I need a good link to a moderate news outlet story about this backdoor trampling of our constitution to throw out, to question whether their concern is really about our rights when they obviously remain mum about this kind of bullshit while pushing their "assault rifle" agenda.

Does anyone have a link to a new's story with a good explanation of this that I won't get the usual "that's a left wing rag!" brush off from? I'd love to post it on Facebook!

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:06 AM

6. Terrifying

It's good tot alk about it, but what can be done?

They just rammed through right to work in the middle of the night in a lame duck session here in Michigan, what makes anyone think they won't ram this through? Can it be stopped?

The GOP already has the messaging for this out there. It's democratic because your voe will count for something then, even if your candidate loses the popular vote in your state, they can still get some EVs from your state. What;s scary is the Feds can do anything to stop it at the state level.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:49 AM

7. I think some of the states could overturn it or block it by referendum.

Michigan and Ohio have the ability to affect law by referendum.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 12:01 PM

9. Probably not...

however, this might come back to bite republicans in the ass. Given the turn-out mechanism of the Obama campaign and its superb ground game, I still think he could have easily turned the 20 or so districts that were within 5 points. Not only causing his re-election, but also causing a dem majority in the house.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 12:13 AM

10. In PA, no, nothing but courts could get rid of it

And I doubt that would get very far.

But at the same time, I doubt PA republicans are really going to do it for a few reasons.

1) Virginia and Florida republicans are already backing off of similar plans for the same reasons such as the bad publicity and long term implications.

2) South Western PA republicans from the Philadelphia suburbs know they'll be screwed if they vote for it, they're the most vulnerable and the ones we can take our anger out at the ballot box on the easiest.

3) Republicans, especially South Western PA republicans, have already chickened out of these vote rigging schemes in the past, despite the governor's insistence on them doing it.

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Response to ShadowLiberal (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 07:29 AM

11. PRESSURE THE Rs!

This is the only way to fight this.

Both my state senator and representative are Rs.

I know them and they know me, and we are friendly in our communications while they know my politics.

I don't go to them on many things, just the important things.

I wrote both letters this time last year about this, and called it for what it was, bald faced, politics with no policy aspect at all, and strongly urged them to not support it.

My House guy was pretty quick in responding that he would not support it. My senator, who is in leadership, took time to put his finger to the wind with the rest of them, and once they settled on the voter ID scam, he replied that he would not support it.

The Ds are not going to support this. They key is letting the Rs know we are paying attention to it, and also making direct communication to let them know it is unacceptable.

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 09:07 AM

12. VA isn't in it anymore. For now. They didn't have the votes. nt

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Response to RedSpartan (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:36 AM

15. Here in Michigan

They will try to do it IMO. Snyder is the most partisan Governor in the Country and the party is crooked as hell.

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