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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:15 PM

Admit it - many of you are just as guilty as Obama...

Don't pretend otherwise. I see it daily. I keep hearing it throughout the liberal blogs and message boards - go over the cliff! You want to go over the cliff. Many of you have been advocating and cheering for the U.S. to go over the cliff for months now. That's fine - but don't pretend to have empathy for millions of Americans when you're actively advocating for something that could dramatically hurt millions of Americans in the coming year.

You act as if Obama is throwing many of you under the bus. Whatever. You're pushing a plan that will literally throw millions of Americans under the bus - millions of Americans who are still struggling to make ends meet since the last major recession. That's justifiable? You find that perfectly justifiable but Obama negotiating on something that isn't even law yet - and probably will never become law - is somehow more damaging than telling a good portion of the country, especially middle and working class Americans, "oh well"?

And it's not even about the taxes. It goes beyond just the taxes - we go over the fiscal cliff and the impact could trickle down to every aspect of our economy. Are you willing to get behind the idea of double-digit unemployment again? Will you have Obama's back if we go over the cliff and unemployment shoots up to above 10% - or are you all going to do what so many of you did in 2010 and '11 when unemployment was high ... use it to attack the President?

If the economy plunges back into a recession, are you going to have any sympathy for those men and women who lose their jobs because of it?

I don't think you will ... and don't pretend that you will. Let's face it - you're no better than Obama when it comes to making tough decisions. You're willing to sacrifice the economy for a no-deal ... something that could erase all the gains we've made the last three years ... and yet get your shorts in a bunch over the thought of Obama potentially compromising?

Give me a fucking break. Stop the games. There is no desirable outcome here. A compromise will hurt - and so will going over the cliff. So, stop acting as if Obama is somehow betraying working class Americans, the elderly and others when you're doing the exact same thing by pushing for the U.S. to 'jump'.

78 replies, 6213 views

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Arrow 78 replies Author Time Post
Reply Admit it - many of you are just as guilty as Obama... (Original post)
Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 OP
Agschmid Dec 2012 #1
roguevalley Dec 2012 #37
taught_me_patience Dec 2012 #38
Scuba Dec 2012 #42
iemitsu Dec 2012 #56
krawhitham Dec 2012 #66
dionysus Dec 2012 #74
hopemountain Dec 2012 #67
pnwmom Dec 2012 #71
LiberalElite Dec 2012 #78
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #2
phleshdef Dec 2012 #3
Still Sensible Dec 2012 #4
brooklynite Dec 2012 #20
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #29
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #48
phleshdef Dec 2012 #65
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #5
Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #7
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #9
Skittles Dec 2012 #14
Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #17
Skittles Dec 2012 #30
janx Dec 2012 #64
EmeraldCityGrl Dec 2012 #76
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #31
PoliticalBiker Dec 2012 #63
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #8
Myrina Dec 2012 #46
forestpath Dec 2012 #16
pnwmom Dec 2012 #72
geek tragedy Dec 2012 #6
TDale313 Dec 2012 #10
Voice for Peace Dec 2012 #11
Hydra Dec 2012 #12
n2doc Dec 2012 #13
TDale313 Dec 2012 #15
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #53
MannyGoldstein Dec 2012 #18
TDale313 Dec 2012 #19
Drunken Irishman Dec 2012 #21
catnhatnh Dec 2012 #22
MannyGoldstein Dec 2012 #23
davidpdx Dec 2012 #24
lillypaddle Dec 2012 #25
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #26
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #27
graham4anything Dec 2012 #28
forestpath Dec 2012 #32
high density Dec 2012 #33
Warpy Dec 2012 #34
MjolnirTime Dec 2012 #35
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #41
JoeyT Dec 2012 #47
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #36
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #49
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #54
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #55
limpyhobbler Dec 2012 #60
NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #39
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #40
oldcrapdealer Dec 2012 #43
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #51
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #62
JoeyT Dec 2012 #44
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #45
cthulu2016 Dec 2012 #50
Enrique Dec 2012 #52
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #57
davidpdx Dec 2012 #69
Agnosticsherbet Dec 2012 #70
CrispyQ Dec 2012 #58
Hoyt Dec 2012 #59
MessiahRp Dec 2012 #61
pnwmom Dec 2012 #73
LisaL Dec 2012 #68
stevenleser Dec 2012 #75
renie408 Dec 2012 #77

Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:18 PM

1. My job depends on other people having disposable income...

right now nothing looks favorable.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:23 AM

37. the cuts proposed will slaughter the old and the injured veterans. Fuck them all.

all of them. Especially the rich.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:42 AM

38. It amounts to about $100/mo 20 years from now

hardly "slaughter". Your hyperbole does no good. There probably isn't a fairer way to cut social security than to phase it in very slowly over a long period of time.

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:59 AM

42. There is a much "fairer" way to deal with Social Security. Subject all income to SS tax ...

... and you can lower the retirement age (great for job seekers) and increase the benefit.

Who would suffer then? Only the already-bloated Swiss bank accounts of the worlds wealthy.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:50 AM

56. You are right Scuba. We do not have to cut Social Security.

It is already inadequate. Social Security is insurance that we have paid for not the dole. It is not taken from the general funds it is separate and would be solvent for the foreseeable future if all income (including capital gains which should be treated the same as earned income) was subject to the tax, which would be fair.
Proposing to cut benefits for seniors, even by a small amount is criminal.
If Obama follows through on his proposal and democrats in the senate don't block it becoming law Obama will become the "Death Panel" he has been accused of by the right.
It will be his legacy.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #42)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:19 PM

66. And you think the GOP will agree to removing the cap?

They view it as another TAX nothing more


People seem to forget we need GOP votes to pass anything, and they are fucking crazy

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Response to Scuba (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:19 PM

74. great idea.. uh.. how do you get the GOp to vote for it? nt

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:36 PM

67. hardly "slaughter"?

seniors, vets, and elders are not cattle. do not be disrespectful of your fellow human beings. $100 is the difference for many when it comes to increased medicare premiums, copays, the cost of food, housing, energy, etc ...and being able to maintain some level of independence from family and other social welfare programs and to still be able to maintain some level of integrity.

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #38)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:05 AM

71. And for those who lose unemployment benefits, that will mean ZERO income this month. n/t

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 23, 2012, 08:32 PM

78. Oh No?

You must not be close to retirement, or you have a big nest egg. I'm very close to retirement and Social Security will be 1/2 of my income. I've paid into this for 45 years and I'm ENTITLED to it. A "fair" way to cut Social Security??? Are you kidding? Are you even a DEMOCRAT?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:19 PM

2. Well said nt

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:21 PM

3. Loss of income due to middle class tax increases will be far higher than chained CPI...

...for many people. Not only does a good portion of DU need a civics class, but a math class probably wouldn't hurt either.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:24 PM

4. Exactly. n/t

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:50 PM

20. How about loss of savings due to market drops?

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:47 PM

29. And a little ...

lesson in linear thinking, i.e., nothing occurs in a vacuum, wouldn't hurt. People seem to want to pretend that our just saying no is any different from their just saying no. In either event, real people are hurt.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:29 AM

48. I got jumped on when I suggested that some of DU failed civics. I stand by that statement and will

not waiver.

You nailed it!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:04 PM

65. LOL I was actually accused of being "VILE!" on here for bringing up the word civics a day or so ago.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:30 PM

5. Give it a rest

you apologists are as pathological as the repukes. The cuts coming to the only social programs left in the US are going to be far worse, and for far longer, than the default deal, which would impact the hyper-rich far more than it would the workers and retirees. We have once again been lied to and sold out by this weakest president in history. He's also guaranteed that the party will be slaughtered in the med-terms. I was so stupid I actually thought the extension of the Bush tax cuts in 2010 were an anomaly - that he would eventually come to his senses and act like a Dem at some point (in governance, not campaigning). No such luck. Our only hope now is that a few real Dems like Sanders and Grayson can stop the worst from happening.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:32 PM

7. Why don't you give it a rest?

You're willing to throw millions of Americans off the cliff to make a point. Stop pretending you're above any of this. You're not. You're just as guilty as Obama in wanting something that could devastate millions of Americans. Why are their lives any less valuable than the people you're pretending to support?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:34 PM

9. There is no problem the Puritans won't refuse to acknowledge if it conflicts

with their refusal to deal with reality.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:49 PM

14. research more about the "fiscal cliff"

a lot of it is just complete fucking bullshit

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Response to Skittles (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:14 PM

17. And a lot of it isn't.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:47 PM

30. Howard knows

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Response to Skittles (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:36 PM

64. This deserves its own thread!

Post in GD?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:49 PM

76. The voice of reason and sanity. eom

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Response to Skittles (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:51 PM

31. True ...

But, 3+ Million people lossing their U/C; the working poor lossing their childcare subsidies; and the now housed homeless (and near homeless) lossing their housing ... is NOT B.S.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:54 PM

63. This isn't just to make a point

Look, I make 20K/yr. Any tax increase would hurt. The fact of the matter is though, it won't stay that way. It gets us out from under the stupid fucking republicons blatent obstructionism to favor the wealthy. It allows the negotiations to go forward with far less leverage for the right to hold hostage *for the benefit of the American people* aka the wealthy. A deal will be made to restore the tax structure for those under 250K nearly immediately. Both the house and the senate democrats already have bills waiting. The republicons can't afford the political backlash they will get if they don't concede.
I don't like the prospect of paying higher taxes any more than anyone else does, but a tax deal will be made to at least bring the taxes back to where they are now for the majority of us... maybe even lower.
The sequester cuts in defense are very much affordable by the defense budget and need not be touched. The cuts in Medicare and Medicaid are to providers, not benefit reductions to those using the programs. Let them happen. We need to bring down the COST of benefits, not the benefits themselves.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:33 PM

8. So, the big Medicare cuts in the fiscal cliff--those are going to hurt the super rich?

Tax increases on the working poor--including expiration of the EITC expansion--that's going to stick it to the rich?

Sending the economy into recession--the rich are going to be the ones losing their jobs?

The expiration of long-term unemployment benefits is going to stick it to the rich?

No, the problem with purists such as yourself--as always--is that you refuse to even look outside of the windows in the lovely towers you've built for yourselves in Fantasyland, your eternal home.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:28 AM

46. +10000

n/t

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:57 PM

16. +1

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:07 AM

72. Apologists? And are all the people who are about to lose their unemployment benefits

and worried that the economy will crash AGAIN and they'll never find a job -- are they all apologists, too?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:31 PM

6. Going off the cliff means Medicare cuts and tax increases for the working poor.

So, I guess it's perfectly fair to accuse those who insist that Obama not cut a deal of favoring Medicare cuts and tax increases for the working poor.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:38 PM

10. I admit to saying go off the cliff...

Because I feel it changes the debate. I don't believe we'd be without a deal for long, and I think it would free some Republicans up to vote for extending some tax cuts without feeling like they were breaking Grover Norquist's pledge.

I am not saying raise taxes on everyone, and frankly everything I've heard is that things would not crash immediately. People advocating this think letting the deadline pass gives us a chance to reset the debate. They're not saying let the economy crash, I don't give a f**k. And I haven't heard them advocating policies that knowingly harm the most vulnerable among us.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:38 PM

11. thank you!

we need a fire brigade in here.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 PM

12. Blah

You guys pushing the "Grand Fleecing" didn't care that Obamacare will kill many of us at the bottom. I would have been one of them except for pure luck.

The fiscal cliff is a non-issue being used to push SSI cutting. If you're cool with that, say it loud, say it proud- Reagan approves of your stance.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:41 PM

13. Do you honestly think that no tax deal will be done come January?

There's little the politicians love more than e to stand up and say "I cut taxes". The Rich are gonna howl the most, because the cliff hits them hard. I am absolutely not worried that a deal will get done in the early part of next year, retroactive to Jan 1.

Quit being a shill for corporate America.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

15. Yep, no way...

We wouldn't a retroactive tax cut quickly. Going "off the cliff" (curb, really) frees republicans up to treat it as a tax cut on 98% of Americans instead of a tax hike on the top 2%.

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Response to n2doc (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:43 AM

53. We already have a tax deal. The middle class tax cuts were passed in the Senate. The ReThugs in the

House will not pass it. Now, you tell me what you expect the president to do. We can't go off the freakin' cliff. That is irresponsible and will hurt more deeply than CPI.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:32 PM

18. So basically

It will never happen why are you lying it's a good thing so shove it

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:44 PM

19. Pretty much. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:13 PM

21. Don't you get it?

This is a no-win situation. Someone is going to get kicked in the balls here. Do you think everything will magically improve if we go over the cliff? Are you that naive to think everything will just be hunky dory if we do nothing? Why is it you're so upset about these proposed cuts that probably will never happen and yet so willing to embrace the fiscal cliff - that'll fuck over just as many, if not more, Americans?

Stop being a goddamn hypocrite. Don't give me this bullshit that Obama is selling anyone up the river when you people are just as quick to sell our economy up the river for spite. Don't you get it - the alternative ain't much better than what the President is proposing!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:29 PM

22. If I'm gonna get kicked in the balls anyhow,

I'll take mine telling the GOP to fuck off, thank you...

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:36 PM

23. Seems like only the 99% are getting kicked in the balls

Time and time again.

Aided and abetted by you.

For 20 years we've been sold, appeased off, and triangulated against until our economy is in shambles and the country is run by liars, incompetents and lunatics.

Have a good night.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:56 PM

24. From what I've read

If we did go off the cliff, yes the automatic cuts would go into affect. But, a budget could still be passed to reverse the cuts. Also we have some wiggle room for the debt ceiling possibly a few weeks into Jan.

I can't speak for everyone here who is saying "go off the cliff", but I think the general sentiment is the Republicans won't negotiate in good faith (I mean can we really trust them?) and they are either going to push everything to the very last moment or walk away thinking they control the situation. Obama has given in on some things (as we can tell from the loud chorus of boo's on DU) and is telling the Republicans to take it or leave it.

We won the election (with the exception of the House) and they should concede (unfortunately they are too conceited). Obama is trying to get the best deal he can for the 98%. If you think otherwise, maybe you've lost faith in him already.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:36 PM

25. for an Irishman who is drunk

You speak sober truth.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:40 PM

26. +1,000,000 ...

Now I can go back and read the "But ... But ... But ..." comments.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:44 PM

27. Either way the "shared sacrifice" STILL won't be shared by the 1%. Obama will make sure of that.

 

THAT is the source of my outrage.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:44 PM

28. Here! Here!

 

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:00 PM

32. Obama IS betraying the elderly. But you're completely missing the point. The cliff IS coming

 

for everyone regardless of your high dudgeon chastising about how awful seniors are for being resistant to taking the fall alone.

It's just that Obama is throwing current seniors over it first. There will be waves of people following. Whoever lives long enough will have it to look forward to, courtesy of President Obama.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:16 PM

33. The Republicans are taking us over the cliff

Their terms are unreasonable. They have been the party of NO since Bush left the White House. It needs to end now.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:26 PM

34. No, dear, the guilty ones are the REPUBLICANS

who are trying to starve everybody and everything in order to fatten the rich and the military.

That is the problem, not Obama and certainly not anyone on this board.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:05 PM

35. They don't care about collateral damage. They have their cherished 'ideals' to keep them warm.

 

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:54 AM

41. As long as the Republicans really believe in the fiscal cliff (it doesn't exist except in Republican

fantasy-land), people will be hurt. The unemployed of today will be the employed tomorrow.

But if the chained CPI is enacted, it will be the beginning of the end for Social Security.

This is not a matter of choosing whether to sacrifice or not. This is a matter of whether to give in once again to the Republican bullies and their scary fantasies.

I oppose further feeding the Republicans' hunger for power and their ruthless use of lies to harm poor people. The best thing we can do is go off the fiscal cliff and show their lies for what they are -- lies. The fiscal cliff was just a Republican campaign ploy. It is a fiction.

A jobless economy. That is the real problem. And the Republicans have no plan, no clue as to how to create jobs.

The Republicans have put themselves and the entire country into a bad position. Our best bet is to call their bluff and just go off the fiscal cliff. There will not be as much suffering as the Republicans and some DUers think, and the suffering that occurs can be dealt with.

But if you mess with Social Security or Medicare, you can forget about programs like unemployment benefits extensions or Medicaid. Because once you weaken Social Security, you have destroyed the confidence of Americans in the honesty of their government. That is what the Republicans want. Their goal, their purpose is to destroy our government, weaken it until it is useless.

So, I disagree with the OP. I strongly disagree with the OP. It is falling into precisely the hysteria that the Republicans have tried to create in the country.

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:29 AM

47. Remember when liberals were up in arms when

this whole thing was originally negotiated and the "pragmatists" told us to be quiet because...well because Obama was doing it was the real reason, but the reason they gave was that it was just so necessary.

Yeah, you don't get to lay this shit at our feet. This is all yours.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:11 PM

36. We can go over the cliff, and then do a middle class tax cut the next day,

and passing other programs to fix the problems.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

49. The House Republicans refuse to pass the middle class tax cut bill that was passed in the Senate.

What would you have the president do? He can't get any cooperation from these assholes. Going over the "cliff" is irresponsible.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:44 AM

54. Passing a middle class tax cut is the easiest thing to do in Congress.

Cutting social security is disgraceful betrayal of the public trust.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:49 AM

55. If it's the easiest thing to do, then why won't the House Republicans even bring the bill to the

floor? It'll take Pelosi to force it on the floor through a discharge petition.

Again, tell me what you expect. And please, give me something that the REPUBLICANS will allow through.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #55)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:49 PM

60. They won't right now because it includes tax increases for the rich.

55. If it's the easiest thing to do, then why won't the House Republicans even bring the bill to the floor?
They won't right now because it includes tax hikes for the rich. If we go over the "cliff" the Bush tax cuts will just expire. Then a middle class tax cut will be easy to pass.

Again, tell me what you expect. And please, give me something that the REPUBLICANS will allow through.
I expect Democrats to defend Social Security and Medicare. If they can't do that they are useless. Polls show the public will hold the Republican politicians accountable if no deal is reached. There is no reason for Obama to give them anything. The House is responsible for sending the President something he can sign, unless they can get 2/3 to override a veto. Obama has all the leverage and all the power here, and he is still trying to cut social security and veterans benefits. He is a traitor to American working families.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:16 AM

39. The people of whom you speak, don't care.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:46 AM

40. The fiscal cliff was a Republican campaign ploy. They were trying to scare Americans into voting

for them. Now they are stuck with that fiscal cliff. If they do nothing about it, the economy will improve on its own, demand for government social program funding will decrease in proportion to the increased tax revenues that come with fuller employment, and the Republicans will be made to look like fools.

If we go off the cliff, and it looks like we will, then there will be sizable military cuts that the Republicans do not want.

It is very, very unfortunate that Obama offered the chained CPI for Social Security. To save face, the Republicans may accept that, and then Obama is in trouble with his own voters and maybe even with some of his supporters in Congress.

Social Security is the last bastion of fiscal fairness in the country. It is owed to those of us who are receiving it now just as the money that we place in our bank accounts is owed to us. I really don't care what the overpaid and very conservative Supreme Court thinks about it, the general consensus in America is, as shown in poll after poll, that Social Security is perhaps the most popular and important program in America. The vast majority of Americans agree with me that Social Security is a guaranteed program that benefits us all, and that its benefits scheme should not be redesigned in any way.

We have precious few social welfare programs. A college education, a graduate degree, they cost small fortunes. Doctors, for example, either have rich parents or pay off their student for years and years. Teachers pay far more for their educations than their modest pay would justify.

We pay more per person for our health care than any other developed country. That's because it is privatized and for profit.

We have food stamps. Big deal. The extremely poor don't starve thanks to the program. We have school lunches -- if you qualify. We have "welfare" -- that requires people to move into jobs very quickly and for which qualified recipients must be absolutely indigent. We have a very limited system of unemployment benefits. Medicaid is basically mercy aid just to prevent a disgraceful number of deaths among the poor.

That's not much if you think about the programs in other Western countries.

Public education, K-12, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SSI. They are absolutely the minimum. They are the adhesive that hold us together. If they did not exist, I don't think that people would support much else in this country. What would be the sense? It would really become each for himself, and I don't think that the greedy, cheapskate rich would like that much in the end. They are as defenseless, maybe more.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:43 AM

43. One Good Reason

Obama caved on letting the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire at least twice during his first term. Maybe if he holds his ground for what he believes in just this once, he may earn some of the respect he didn't get the first time.

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Response to oldcrapdealer (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:40 AM

51. He "caved" to get an extension of unemployment benefits, as well as DADT repealed and a START

Treaty. I tire of you whiners.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:26 PM

62. So he caved

And many are expecting the same thing again.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:25 AM

44. It could.

But I didn't negotiate either of these horseshit deals. Who did, I wonder? Who could've negotiated the deals in a way that we weren't choosing which vulnerable population to hurt? Goddamn....It seems like there was someone that negotiated both of these, but for the life of me I can't remember who it was.

Oh right. Obama negotiated both of them. So good luck with that "logic".

ETA: I still don't think Obama is going to include social security. If he does we're fucked in 2014 and possibly 2016. "Obama cut social security" commercials will be run non-stop by the very people those cuts benefited to aid in electing the assholes that wanted the cuts in the first place.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:28 AM

45. Always the voice of reason, DI. Thank you so much.

I've been making good use of the Trash and Ignore options. I'm not going down this road with these ODSers again.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:36 AM

50. Sounds like somebody is running out of rationalizations

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:42 AM

52. by this logic, there was no point to re-elect Obama

he is utterly powerless in the face of the GOP's refusal to extend unemployment benefits.

There is literally no limit on what the GOP can demand, because they can simply refuse to extend benefits.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

57. Going over the cliff isn't as permanent as you seem to fear.

(1) Increased taxes don't hit all at once, but over the year. This means that legislation can be passed to fix problems faced by the middle class and poor that are not linked with wealth tax cuts.

(2) Cuts to programs also do no happen instantly, and they can be fixed.

(3) Programs like food stamps and unemployment are among the ones that will be hit on day one, but Republicans don't seem itching to fix these.

(4) Cuts to Social Security and Medicare negotiated away to pay for tax cuts for some of the wealthy are a real disaster that takes money from the most vulnerable and gives it as welfare to people make more than $250,000.00 a year. Giving wealthy to the effluent of the affluent is a monstrous failure in civics.

If Republicans won't deal without hurting the poor, veterans, unemployed, and middle class so their wealthy donor base doesn't have to give up a few tins caviar that is a monstrous failure of civics. The problems with taxes and programs can be fixed within the first hundred days.

If they won't act responsibly now, lets see what the next Congress will do? We do not need to disassemble the social safety net.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:25 AM

69. I tried to make a similar argument above

But I like how you wrote it better. I think even if we wait until the new Congress is sworn in, it will still be possible to fix these issues. The cliff thing, as many people have said is bullshit anyway. There is a good chance we can hold on through the first two week of January if a deal is not reached by Dec 31st. The Republicans want Obama to cave and in fact many on here have already claimed he has.

Call their bluff...

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:06 AM

70. With Boehner's failure to get even a token vote for Plan b passed...

they don't have much of a bluff. If they can't pass a bill there is nothing to do but go over the cliff. Passing a bill requires to functioning bodies in congress, House and Senate. The Senate is the only branch that is functional.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:53 AM

58. I want to know why SS benefits are on the table when SS doesn't contribute to the deficit?

This is a mind boggling stupid & mean proposal. The president is giving us a repeat of 2009 & if this comes to pass, 2014 is going to be a bad year for the dems.

You are right that there is no desirable outcome here. The lower ranks are going to take a brutal hit so the rich don't have to pay higher taxes, especially on their sacred investment income. Tax investment like labor & implement a per transaction tax on stock trades.

They know what to do to fix the economy, but they aren't affected, so they don't care.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:16 PM

59. I'm trusting Obama to balance everything and do what hurts the fewest people, and protects those at


low end.

I see nothing so far to change that. I do see a lot of folks who naively believe there is a simple way to handle this situation without hurting people we care about, --be it seniors, disabled, poor, unemployed, young folks who can't find a job, Medicare beneficiaries, middle class families, etc. I don't believe there is anything that simple unless we only care about the next 6 months.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:12 PM

61. I'll give you one more: Unemployment Benefits expire in 9 days

If we go over the cliff yes tax cuts for the rich will expire but the GOP will then be on a mission to go after Obama even harder than before for their benefactors.

That means forget any of the following ever being allowed on the floor or passed:

-Middle Class Tax Cuts
-Unemployment Benefit Extensions
-Debt Ceiling Raises

Of all of those the UE Benefits are the ones that will cripple the economy the hardest. Those people often have no other income and will be facing serious hardships... losing their cars, losing their homes, inability to pay their electric/heat bills, difficulties putting food on their tables.

A lot of people responded to my post about compromise with a NAIVE "they'll negotiate UE separately" remark or the typical cold, "Oh well"... It's like some of the people here who are quite comfortable in their situations look down on the poor the same way Mitt Romney does. BTW for all that, 'UE won't be affected because they'll negotiate it separately' bullshit, we should look at the recent proposals by Obama and you can see these two issues are tied together.

The worst part is it's the holiday season and there's a serious lack of empathy amongst some of the so-called liberals/progressives/Democrats on this board. Makes me seriously question their liberal/progressive credentials to be honest.

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Response to MessiahRp (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 06:08 AM

73. +1. n/t

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:53 PM

68. Taxes. This could affect everyone.


"Almost everyone will be affected, either by a tax increase, a refund delay, or possibly not being able to file their taxes like they're used to, like in January or early February."
http://www.ksfy.com/story/20399194/fiscal-cliff-could-delay-tax-filing-and-refunds

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:03 PM

75. I maintain the prediction I made on my show a few weeks back...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021929098

The plan all along was to stall until Jan 2nd. When the Fiscal Cliff takes effect, Republicans can then vote to give the middle class a tax cut back to the rates they were before the cut. They will in effect not be voting for any tax increases, but the net effect will be the wealthy get their taxes raised, the middle class gets to keep things as is, and Republicans can claim they did not violate their pledge not to raise taxes.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:04 PM

77. Thanks.

I said pretty much the same thing and got lot of sneering ridicule from the 'purists'.

Like I said in one post, I almost hope we go over the cliff and then I want to come back here in a couple of months and see if the same people who are cheering for us to go over are some of the ones complaining about the state of the country.

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