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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:57 PM

Amazed at how Some Folks Jump to the Extreme Negative on everything Obama Does

Every position Obama takes, he's "caving in to the Republicans" or "he's selling out his base" or "he's a corporatist puppet" or "he's making the elderly eat cat food". And, these extreme negative positions are taken without knowing ANY facts, just heresy from the media's unnamed, inside sources.

Much like the ACA, everyone was howling about how awful it was. Until the actual facts came out. Facts like, your kid can stay on your plan until 26. No co-pays for checkups. No lifetime caps. No denial for pre-existing conditions. All of the good things didn't stop folks from saying that Obama sold out on healthcare.

How about waiting until seeing the actual facts of any agreement before making a judgment? Can we try that for once?

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Arrow 109 replies Author Time Post
Reply Amazed at how Some Folks Jump to the Extreme Negative on everything Obama Does (Original post)
Yavin4 Dec 2012 OP
jberryhill Dec 2012 #1
leveymg Dec 2012 #2
Myrina Dec 2012 #3
gateley Dec 2012 #10
msongs Dec 2012 #15
Whisp Dec 2012 #39
patrice Dec 2012 #40
demwing Dec 2012 #72
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #108
roguevalley Dec 2012 #50
demwing Dec 2012 #73
patrice Dec 2012 #95
Autumn Dec 2012 #4
Yavin4 Dec 2012 #5
R. Daneel Olivaw Dec 2012 #7
pangaia Dec 2012 #102
freshwest Dec 2012 #13
elleng Dec 2012 #17
One of the 99 Dec 2012 #25
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #34
freshwest Dec 2012 #52
Summer Hathaway Dec 2012 #35
freshwest Dec 2012 #53
Summer Hathaway Dec 2012 #59
tama Dec 2012 #62
patrice Dec 2012 #36
freshwest Dec 2012 #54
tama Dec 2012 #63
patrice Dec 2012 #94
tama Dec 2012 #96
patrice Dec 2012 #98
tama Dec 2012 #103
patrice Dec 2012 #104
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #79
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #56
freshwest Dec 2012 #58
tama Dec 2012 #64
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #80
RKP5637 Dec 2012 #78
appacom Dec 2012 #101
patrice Dec 2012 #41
Autumn Dec 2012 #43
patrice Dec 2012 #45
Autumn Dec 2012 #46
patrice Dec 2012 #47
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #82
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #86
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #87
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #90
patrice Dec 2012 #100
patrice Dec 2012 #92
tama Dec 2012 #65
patrice Dec 2012 #105
tama Dec 2012 #106
Yavin4 Dec 2012 #51
Autumn Dec 2012 #75
brooklynite Dec 2012 #6
elleng Dec 2012 #8
WI_DEM Dec 2012 #9
ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #11
Doctor_J Dec 2012 #12
vi5 Dec 2012 #26
Cosmocat Dec 2012 #14
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #37
Cosmocat Dec 2012 #68
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #88
Jakes Progress Dec 2012 #16
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #19
forestpath Dec 2012 #23
patrice Dec 2012 #44
demwing Dec 2012 #74
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #18
graham4anything Dec 2012 #30
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #69
graham4anything Dec 2012 #71
zipplewrath Dec 2012 #81
11 Bravo Dec 2012 #20
MjolnirTime Dec 2012 #21
Michigan Alum Dec 2012 #22
forestpath Dec 2012 #24
patrice Dec 2012 #32
forestpath Dec 2012 #48
patrice Dec 2012 #49
patrice Dec 2012 #27
graham4anything Dec 2012 #28
patrice Dec 2012 #31
graham4anything Dec 2012 #33
JoeyT Dec 2012 #91
patrice Dec 2012 #29
veganlush Dec 2012 #38
Pisces Dec 2012 #42
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #55
WeekendWarrior Dec 2012 #57
madrchsod Dec 2012 #60
aandegoons Dec 2012 #61
Tarheel_Dem Dec 2012 #66
davidpdx Dec 2012 #67
Laelth Dec 2012 #70
bowens43 Dec 2012 #76
Enrique Dec 2012 #77
MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #83
graham4anything Dec 2012 #97
Demit Dec 2012 #84
Tippy Dec 2012 #85
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #89
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #93
great white snark Dec 2012 #99
AverageJoe90 Dec 2012 #107
apnu Dec 2012 #109

Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:59 PM

1. Aside from which any offer he makes will be refused


Even with the hint of chained CPI there was the following "measures to offset impact on the vulnerable" which of course is left on the cutting room floor.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:00 PM

2. Not enough cold water in the ocean to put out this fire, I'm afraid. No cuts to SS - shouldn't even

be on the table at this point, except that the Cat Food Commission, Wall Street, and neoliberal toadies in both parties want them.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

3. FACT IS, he said - flat out - in his presser this morning, that 'everything' was on the table.

That statement, combined with his record of kissing Boehner's ass & throwing us Average Joe's under the bus for the last 4 years ... well, what more ACTUAL FACTS do you need?

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Response to Myrina (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:42 PM

10. I think any President HAS to say that, regardless if it's factual or not.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that he has appeared to cave on some things (I'm thinking civil liberties even more than other issues), but we need to wait and see what he DOES, not what he SAYS to the press.

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Response to gateley (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:35 PM

15. people who stand for nothing will fall for anything. nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:51 PM

39. so Obama now stands for nothing?

 

wtf.

this shit has got to stop. It's disgraceful.

no wonder you live in a backwards country (assuming you are from the U.S.) with 'tudes like you have. All or nothing. Win or Lose. That is exactly why you aren't where others are.

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Response to msongs (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:59 PM

40. You assume you know who's standing, how, and for what. I wonder too if anyone thinks about how such

a statement has relevance to what goes on on this board as far as what "stand" actually concretely, that is, IN TERMS OF WHAT THINGS ACTUALLY ARE AND HOW THEY REALLY DO WORK, means (other than getting on the internet and flaming away, usually with little or no information, usually on extremely artificially limited and disconnected issues, in order to attract and hold little cliques who very busily assure one another that they are absolutely right and everyone else is absolutely wrong, as they all eagerly wait the day when they get to celebrate the misery that they help create by saying "See, I predicted this." . . . . Come on, msongs, you KNOW that is the way it is here at DU).

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Response to msongs (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:59 AM

72. Wise man say: "People who pull their philosophy from fortune cookie

end up with Egg Foo Yung on face"

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Response to gateley (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:25 AM

108. That much is true. n/t

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Response to Myrina (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

50. Myrina, don't confuse them with facts. THey like to tell us to SHUT UP FUCKERS!

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:03 AM

73. No, "they" don't. Its damned annoying.

So congrats, you've annoyed people with your dark clouds of woe. Your job here is complete...

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #50)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:54 PM

95. What is the definition of "everything" please and thank you as in "everything is on the table"?

If it's only Soc Sec, that would be incorrect.

For example: We are under a one-year deadline to set up the federal health care insurance exchanges that could lead to Medicare for all, what might be a few issues on the table that have to do with those insurance exchanges and how might that stuff turn into seeing to it that someone like my mother-in-law doesn't get hauled off to a dentist, drugged, undergo extraction of ALL of her teeth, carted back to her little low end long-term-"care" factory, dumped in her chair to sit alone whimpering until I come in and find her wearing her last best blouse (the one with a little lace on the edge of the collar), now blood spattered, and she is confused and crying, as the old woman dying of esophageal cancer in the bed next to her groans out one more of the last few hours she has "amongst us" all alone.

Is that part of your definition of "everything" or is everything only Soc Sec?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:03 PM

4. Then Obama should step up and quit doing Extreme Negative things.

Such as putting a chained CPI in his counter proposals.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:08 PM

5. I Want To See A Full Independent Analysis of the Deal

before I jump to the extreme negative.

Thank you very much.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:23 PM

7. Would you welcome a chained CPI if the President accepted it:


even if it hurts SS and those on it?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:29 PM

102. No I would not.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:09 PM

13. It's pointless to discuss this at DU any longer, yavin.

A long statement going to the INTENT of what Obama is working on, protecting the MOST vulnerable was not even commented upon. It required a person to look at the big picture, not the hot button trigger words and it was posted by Tx4obama or babylonsister..

Some now screaming about the payroll tax cut being eliminated, when Bernie Sanders said it was a bad thing for the insolvency of Social Security at the beginning screamed about it. But now they call that punishing the middle class to kiss the rich. The short memory is caused by the grind of daily news, the majority of which is geared to the subconscious.

Some had no joy about the bill of the cap being raised, just kept up with the Obama betrayal meme, which has been constantly fed from the right since 2008. The left is using the emotional currency the Tea Party ran on.

Alternative media says Obama is a by stealth evil world dictator, and all kinds of calumny is attached to his name. They promote the idea that they are against the military budget, like Democrats. At the same time they promote the vision of America being turned into an armed camp to resist Obama's alleged murderous ways that are always just around the corner. I see that fervor played out here.

But the same alternative sources that so disdain him, consistently claim the social safety net is a trap and will be disappearing, as part of their resistance to communism grows. They've stoked the flames to convince people their apocalyptic vision really is true. That gets forgotten. There is an old proverb, 'The lie wrapped up in a truth, still is a lie.'

Some aren't concerned about the 3 million people scheduled to lose their unemployment benefits if sequestration occurs, which has been a consistent act on Obama's part, to protect those people. These were the ones being threatened in the middle of a foreclosure crisis and who were the chief whipping post of the Tea Party to get the Bush tax cuts extended, or they would shut the government down.

He negotiated because of the ripple affect of the cut off of younger middle class to funding that would stop their health insurance and homes from being lost, their children having to be taken out of school as they became homeless or were displaced, and the ensuring economic effect of all of that. Somehow those people were on his mind, but not many other people's minds.

In the B & W world of the government is always wrong, the numer of people that have gotten relief and their lives helped by his loosening of disablity and the ACA, is easily forgotten. All of those millions who were not being helped but are being helped now are forgotten. The women whose healthcare was left int their hands and not the grasp of right wing oppressors, does not seem to matter, either. Short memories. And yes, all of those people are important, too.

The jump off the cliff was an emotional present to many of us, including myself, until I read more and I am sure these details are not being forgotten by Obama. Media owned by rich conservatives with edited sound bites have won the war at DU.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:32 PM

17. BIG thanks, fresh.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:25 PM

25. Great post nt

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:44 PM

34. But he promiseddddd ...

Thank you.

As I said before ...

If the final deal includes some things I don't like ... Since I'm not at the negotiating table or in the room, and because I am not being privy to caliber of economists and advisors that President Obama has access to for a 360 analysis of the effects of any term, I think I still will give President Obama the benefit of a doubt.

We have become a completely dumbed-down society, where this particular economic problem can be solved by just doing what my favorite economic pundit blogged about yesterday. Maybe so ... but the POTUS has to concern his/herself with not only THAT economic problem; but, also, the Foreign policy or military or trade impact that our pundits might not be considering. And, anyone that believes that they, or their favorite pundit, has equal access to the information necessary to make such far reaching decisions is either ignorant or deluded.

I know this sounds like one DUer has suggested, I'm 1NotQuiteSoStrongBlackMan; but I have to trust that the POTUS his the best interest of America, in general, and those he campaigned to, in particular, at heart. Especially, this POTUS, who seems to have made, just about, all the right decisions ... even the unpopular ones.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:12 AM

52. Actually, ,he only promised that SS would not be privatized while he was president. If Democrats

decide to stay at home in 2010 like they did in 2010, Grover's Tea Party Two will take over the Congress again and be more radical.

They will carry Ryan or someone else of that low caliber into the White House in 2016 and end Social Security and turn Medicare into vouchers as they intended to do, and end the ACA and Medicaid. Millions will suffer and die as they privatize and deny coverage.

That's the worst case scenario. And when the president was running for office in 2008, the only promise I saw him make was to attempt to turn things around and he also said that things were going to be very hard because of the wars, so they needed to end.

And he was much more optimistic then. He made plans for budget management with the sunsetting of the Bush tax cuts at the end of 2010. That is what should have happened. Instead, the Democrats sat home, the Tea Party got in office with a Koch mandate to make sure that didn't happen.

They haven't stopped and they are still funded. But the same agitation is being given to get people to not vote again. Now if Ameicans wake up, they will vote. At this point, we only have the voters who believed in the same things that Obama worked on to do the job. A lot of people are going to sit back and fiddle while Rome burns again. Hopefully not a lot of DUers, but even before today's hullaboo, some said they were not going to vote, without any evidence their fears were coming to pass.

I trust the President for his passion to help the very worst off with the Medicaid expansion and other things he's been doing. The great screaming will not be coming from the mouths of those who have nothing at all but those who have something to lose. Change is coming, like it or not. Only the involved will make it..

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:45 PM

35. Excellent response, Freshwest

I would go one step further and say that it is pointless to discuss most things on DU these days.

I wonder how many actual Democrats are still posting on this site. I doubt there are many left.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:34 AM

53. I think a certain percentage are republican or libertarians. Both bash all Democrats and hate Obama.

It's consistent, dishonest and demoralizing. I remember years ago reading about some of the Greek philosophers who were ordered to drink hemlock upon tearing everything down and not offering any solutions. And in this case, the hate is being directed at those who are trying to do the work and find solutions to some of the worst problems we are facing. Someone here said to me that, 'Misery is the tool of the maliciously lazy' (to silence others).

With the exception of a few here who are actually in politics, like Grayson and some of our other posters who do real world politics and find that compromises must be made, we are not confronted face to face with these demons who would dash the hopes of so many of our fellows. It's not as easy when one is in the thick of it.

That being said, I don't want anything that is going to change the intent of Social Security. I know too, that the right and faux left will play this as hard as they can to demoralize us and get us to stay home again. There were several narratives that played into 2010 and the money that goes for persuasion is still there.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:22 AM

59. As I just stated in a reply to another post here

"For those for whom 'assuming the worst' has become a way of life - well, you don't want to shed sunshine on what could have been a perfectly good downpour on their parade. And the umbrella salesmen can't help but take advantage of their potential customers."

There are a great number of umbrella salesmen posting here. And, sadly enough, their willing customers are so easily convinced that a downpour of epic proportions is always imminent.

As I said, I doubt there are many actual Democrats still posting here. Most were driven off by the constant Obama-bashing - invariably passed off as "legitimate concern". What's left on an alleged "Democratic-supporting website" are a handful of real Democrats - like yourself - who are willing to hold the fort against all odds.

I thank you for your service to the cause, and your perseverance. Please be assured that your efforts do not go unnoticed, or unappreciated.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #53)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:37 AM

62. Socrates

 

He was accused for corrupting the Athenian youth and of atheism. Socrates denied both charges and told the jury that state should give him free meals for all the good he has been doing, which got the jury so mad that they voted to sentence him. Tearing down false belief systems by rationally questioning their foundations and not offering a belief system to replace them, just ability of critical thinking, awareness and ethical consciousness.

Socrates was offered chance to escape, but he chose to to follow the law and ethos of his community and drink the chalice that he was offered.

It is quite clear also from your post that all you got is faith and hope. And strong defense mechanisms against rational and ethical inquiry about their presuppositions, foundations and empirical validity.

This is democratic underground and you know what is under ground? Burning fire of truth. It's fearsome, but facing the fear of burning truth opens the way up to sky.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:46 PM

36. This place IS about done for. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck. I anticipate just

lurking and watching the celebration of "I told you sos" about the misery so many are so eagerly creating as self-fulfilling prophecies as we speak and, guess what, ALL of it will be "Obama's fault".

I'm convinced the basic driver is anti-Labor and oddly enough that includes a contingent on what calls itself "the Left".

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Response to patrice (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:35 AM

54. Patrice, I'll get back to you on this.

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Response to patrice (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:42 AM

63. Told you so :)

 

And as for anti-Labor, I agree with those who see that the real goal of anti-authoritarian left is freedom from wage slavery instead of more jobs to serve capitalists and destroy the Earth. Strong unions able to do political general strikes to get rid of parasite classes and take over means of production are very important tools for that purpose.

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Response to tama (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:39 PM

94. OMG, I thought I was the only one who was thinking that!! & The trouble with anti-authoritarianism

(and please know that I count myself as one ((amongst other things that I am)) and I have memories that go back to the 1st grade in Catholic schools that show that tendency in my personality. It's part of why my skills have evolved as they have. Plus I was married to and LOVED on of the most committed Libertarians in this metro - all of which I mention to support that I didn't just lately discover that I'm anti-authoritarian, in fact it's authoritarianism from what calls itself "the Left" that is driving my reaction to what's going on with DU) . . . .

One of the problems with anti-authoritarianism is that it becomes reactionary, not manifesting itself in terms of whatever unique identity it has to offer, but solely in terms of anti-something/anything. The anti- is valued ABOVE ALL ELSE, so anti-authoritarians become a slave to and consequently internalize the oppressor and thus can't perceive anything except in terms of possibly, probably even LIKELY, false dichotomies. Absolutes are not rational, false dichotomies CAN be wrong, but they are echoed everywhere, which would be okay if people would just at least accept the possibility that they very well could be in error. The inability to entertain honest and substantive questions is a sign of weakness.

I agree that Freedom is one of the most necessary things, but if you limit your definitions of what that looks like and let others define it for you by ONLY reacting to your perceptions, perhaps mistaken perceptions, of them/whoever "they" are, you are not Free.

We have a problem differentiating our needs from our wants and that enslaves us, so I do dig the idea of ending wage-slavery. I hope very fervently to see new coopertive business-lifestyles. Can we start tomorrow? We're going to need Labor's assistance on the issues that WOULD support those efforts.

But as much as I want that and would love to just submerge myself into whatever/wherever the strongest trajectory in that direction flows, I know this WHOLE thing isn't just about me, and those with whom I agree, and what happens to us WILL be affected for better or for worse, as Newtown so clearly demonstrates, by what happens to others, even those with whom I disagree.

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Response to patrice (Reply #94)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:29 PM

96. Yup

 

anti-authoritarianism often confuses with the reactionary mechanistic version of inability to listen and learn.

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Response to tama (Reply #96)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:55 PM

98. I think we, all of us, would benefit from more open honest discussion of what freedom is.

To me, a true passion for freedom would also be characterized by an innate aversion to any form of oppression, like always being defined as/by reactions to others and also even oppression by one's self. Freedom doesn't necessarily mean "no consequences"; it can mean not being limited, in one's actions, by consequences. Maybe it's kind of a middle-class assumption that there is no freedom if there are consequences, because lower classes know quite a bit about consequences and have had to make behavioral decisions despite consequences frequently, not necessarily the best most functional decisions, because of their disadvantages, but choices, anyway, that look at consequences and defy them.

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Response to patrice (Reply #98)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:59 PM

103. In my experience

 

freedom and responsibility correlate in very deep and "weird" ways.

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Response to tama (Reply #103)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:02 PM

104. The word "weird" has a very interesting evolution, so I think I know what you mean. & it is weird

how responsibility can also free you.

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Response to patrice (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:37 AM

79. Signing 3 so-called "free-trade" agreements and getting ready to sign another (TPP) is anti-labor.

 

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:19 AM

56. Why doesn't Obama just cut military spending and aid to countries like Pakistan.

In fact, Obama is paying Pakistan a lot of money just so that Pakistan will promise to guard its own borders.

The military wastes to much money, it isn't funny. There is lots more to cut there. We could be funding all of the unemployment insurance if we cut the military waste. Pallets of cash were lost of misplaced in Iraq. Why hasn't Obama investigated to find out where it went?

The banks are soaking the entire nation. Why has the Obama administration permitted the same cheats that were running the banks before 2008 to run them now?

These questions would not arise except that now the Obama administration has offered to shortchange Social Security recipients. We who are on Social Security did not cause the unemployment or the economic meltdown. We have a right to be angry at the thought that Obama is "compromising" away our Social Security benefits. They are paltry to begin with. They can't bear cutting. Many of us will end up on food stamps if Obama permits the chained CPI to be instituted.

Our ire has absolutely nothing to do with the media message brought by rich conservatives. It has to do with the facts, with the reality. I for one worked very hard to get Obama re-elected. And this is my thanks. Being treated with utter contempt by the Obama administration.

Obama would have the support of a lot of Democrats in Congress with regard to staying strong in defending social programs. But Obama just isn't willing to do what is right in this situation. That is why we are criticizing him. It's our only hope for getting fair treatment.

We did not cause the economic problems in the country. Why should we have to pay the price for solving them?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #56)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:55 AM

58. You did not defeat the people who make money from wars, which is not just the banks.

The bigger they are,. the easier to throw stones and name call. These people are in our schools, communiies, our leglslatures, and 60 MILLION of them voted for a man that disdained SS, promised them he'd go to war, and make their lives tax free.

We only beat them by 5 million. And trying to confront them face-to-face and changing their philosophy is damned hard. They organize out of the churches on Sundays and private groups that meet every week or more.

They voted and are calling their representatives right now to do these things. There really is an opposing philosophy of governance in this country that is moving us toward fascism since it it making them prosperous. Yelling at Obama won't change them or the power they have.

There is an opposition to all things Democrats believe are rational and good policy. What I'm describing is why I beg people to call and contact people even though the election is over, because really, it's never over.

The RW counts on our fatigue and they are zealots who have a vested interest - a financial interest in war and all the things that we find disgusting. They make enough money, a lot more than many believe, to not need social security and the ACA. Really, they don't.

This is where the war of the haves and the have nots really is - in the real world. The people that it is hard fo confront and say - we're takig your job and your contract and you'll have to shift for yourself. They want taxes eliminated.

I believe they are very wrong, but they aren't going anywhere. Do I like them - no. In fact, they fill me with dread. They wouldn't give a damn about Social Security going away.

The old baggers in the scooters are not the only ones out there. Obama has to deal with what this nation really is, not just where he wants to lead it. And we are that nation and there is no escaping it. In many ways, I feel like we are the minority, always, although we should not be.



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Response to freshwest (Reply #58)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:54 AM

64. As for real world fascism

 

it was de facto real world Democratic Party that sent their robocops to illegally break down Occupy camps. And it was the de facto real world Democratic Party of millioners that was defeated by militant grass roots Teacher union together with other Occupy etc. grass roots activists - the community.

American imperialism is the foundation of American consumerism, and it has not yet been utterly defeated although it's clearly crumbling. Adaptation to post-imperialism and post-consumerism is inevitable, and partisan politics and party loyalism are not helping but an obstacle of adaptation.

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Response to tama (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:42 AM

80. True.

 

And it was the Obama Administration that was aware of the police violation of civil rights and stood by while doing nothing.

The use of unnecessary and excessive police brutality was televised. It was in the news. There's no way that anyone can legitimately claim that the Obama Administration was not aware of it.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:35 AM

78. Exactly!!! Well said!!! n/t

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Response to freshwest (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:29 PM

101. Thanks much for the burst of sanity

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Response to Autumn (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:01 PM

41. PAUL KRUGMAN himself said that he's reserving judgement on what is going on with this CPI proposal.

May I have your credentials please, so we can compare them to Paul Krugman's?

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Response to patrice (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:08 PM

43. Screw credentials. This is a web site devoted to all things political.

I really don't give a shit what Paul Krugman or you think. I know what I think, and if I want to respond I will do so.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #43)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:26 PM

45. K, so there's no need for rational support? Just saying things makes them so? . . . .

If you don't give a shit what I think - BUT - what you think matters so much that you can respond if you want to, doesn't that make what you think more important than what I think, or Paul Krugman thinks. Isn't that just a tad superior?

You're claiming something, a right to express what you think, without at least caring that others may express what they think too. If you claim a right to something, it's not a right unless others possess it too. Since your right to expressing what you think is more valuable than anyone else's, it must be a privilege.

You might be a fascist, perhaps you should think about it.

Nice manners, btw.



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Response to patrice (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:30 PM

46. Hey, you posted and I sure didn't demand your credentials

If all you see is privilege and fascism, try looking in a mirror. You have a nice day.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:34 PM

47. Credentials are about rational support based on information about what is happening to people, sorry

that insulted you.

And about the mirror: I will if you will.

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Response to patrice (Reply #47)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:46 AM

82. No. Relying upon credentials while rejecting the views of ordinary Americans who do not claim to

 

have credentials is an endorsement of authoritarianism.

It is rational to those who support authoritarianism. It is not rational to those who support participatory democracy.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:21 AM

86. No ...

There have been several articles, of late, around the topic of the relative value of opinions. Those opinions based on fact, in a rational world, should carry far more legitimacy than opinions based on ... well ... opinion, or speculation. And a starting point for judging/evaluating the legitimacy of the fact analysis is credentials.

For some insane reason, we have moved into that anti-intellectual world of the right, where my opinon-based opinions hold equal weight to your fact-based opinion.

And it is, both, scary and sad that we would be having this discussion.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:25 AM

87. People with credentials have been wrong before. Did you know that Bush-43 has an MBA degree?

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:46 AM

90. Yes ...

I know both of what you said.

But seriously ... as a starting point ... would you give more initial credence to the opinion of an MBA (on business matters) that cites to facts that can be verified, or some random anonymous internet poster that cites to their speculation-backed opinion?

This really is what we are talking about here ... the highly credentialed Krugman says let's wait to see the deal; whereas, many DUers are saying, No.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:11 PM

100. Neither condition, credentialed or not, is a guarantor of validity or invalidity. The basics are

about empirical information. People with credentials can either possess or lack the basics of experiential knowledge, empirical information, and those without credentials can either possess or lack the basics of experiential knowledge, facts, too. Certificates/degrees/diplomas or whatever, or the lack thereof, don't guarantee any of that one way or another.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:24 AM

92. Agreed! And "ordinary Americans who do not claim to have credentials" & represent themselves as

though they speak for ALL ordinary Americans is authoritarianism too & when they add threats to others in the form of my-way-or-the-highway false dichotomies (usually without any factual base) that's coercion that suggests developing fascism, especially when most of this goes down in an environment in which people are not putting their own identities on the line, using pseudonyms and masks.

Pardon me if I don't just buy blindly into it, though it appears that blindness doesn't matter to an awful lot of people, I personally must ask questions about uses of power anywhere that refuses to identify itself, rejects the necessity of some level of the same courage that they pillory others for not displaying to THEIR standards and, then, which they supposedly laud in our armed forces, while they abdicate most if not all personal responsibility for what that courage costs those persons in terms of their own Humanity.

Ask me, I will tell you that I COULD be wrong; the reason I do that is because I KNOW for absolute concrete fact that people who won't admit that they could be wrong are dangerous to individual others in very personal ways and, through our political systems, to millions, including quite possibly all forseable future generations.

......................................

Rejecting views is not necessarily authoritarian in and of itself, sometimes it IS about VALIDITY and when the rejectees make those situations more about themselves and their own perceptions, ABOVE ALL ELSE, rather than at least ASK a few goddamned questions about how/why/if something MIGHT be valid to others, others who may even be their own peers mind you, not only are LARGER truths obfuscated and likely LOST, but then also all such situations are more about POWER than they are about TRUTH and the extension of those sets of circumstances is found in Newtown..

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Response to patrice (Reply #45)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:01 AM

65. Umm

 

natural rights can't be "possessed", only limited by social constructs or tyranny, by those possessed by power and greed. If you are not aware that self expression is natural state, not a right to be granted from above and possessed by those granted, you are unaware and ignorant. Your claim that your ignorance of natural state should be a limit of self expression of those who are aware of natural state is not rational at all.

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Response to tama (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:33 PM

105. I'm not against self expression. I'm against self expression that delivers universal absolutes &

does not recognize other self expression.

The reason I am against that is that is claims powers beyond itself and that's privilege to the extent that it does not recognize other self expression and difficult as it may seem that includes even 1% -ers, but it's not a real problem if you ask me if all of us just recognize up from what you just define here for me. I'm happy with that, but yes I do get frustrated when I feel claims are being made beyond that diversity of truths, claims that have power consequences that are not and may never be authentically earned.

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Response to patrice (Reply #105)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 08:06 AM

106. Agreed

 

Golden and Silver rule, ethical relativistic localism instead of totalitarian universalism.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:38 AM

51. What Do Credentials Have To Do With Anything?

We don't even have a deal in place and already folks are screaming.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:31 AM

75. I was asked for my credentials. n/t

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:22 PM

6. But, I WAS PROMISED A PONY!

And if people in Germany can get one, why can't I!!!

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:32 PM

8. Thanks.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:39 PM

9. By and large it's the same people who have jumped on Obama for the last four years

for nearly everything. It's hard to take them seriously because it's just another anti-Obama thread by the usual suspects.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:55 PM

11. You have a good point, but I am glad people are being vocal about

how important SS is to them.

Politicians need to know how strongly people feel about SS so they know not to cut it.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:56 PM

12. I am amazed at what Republican programs that "Dems" will get on board with

just because Obama wants them

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:30 PM

26. It's pathetic.

I find myself literally sickened when reading this board, and realizing what number of things people on here will spin as being o.k. at best and actual victories or successes as worst, simply because Obama is doing it or supporting it.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:31 PM

14. He has capitulated to the Rs two times

in these situations - the first time the Bush Tax Cuts were to expire and the last time there was a debt ceiling.

I have defending Barack Obama A LOT here, particularly in the ACA debates.

He got as much as he could get there, clearly.

But, he has let the Rs hold him hostage and negotiated into worse positions twice now, and it is clear he negotiated much further their direction here than he should have.

Their incapacity to even take a deal they should not have gotten is another issue.

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:48 PM

37. And what did he get ...

or more accurately what did the working class and/or another vulnerable population, get for those "capitulations"?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:57 AM

68. No much

and not worth the capitulation.

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #68)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:31 AM

88. NOT MUCH! ...

The extension of U/C for the long-term unemployed is a whole hell of a lot, for the long-term unemployed and meant a lot more to the unemployed than allowing the tax cuts for the rich to continue.

The end of DADT for GLBT service members and the ability to NOT press DOMA meant a lot more to the GLBT community than allowing the tax cuts for the rich to continue.

The passage of SALT means a lot more to the world than than allowing the tax cuts for the rich to continue.

So please stop minimizing what President Obama has accomplished, just because you are stuck on one issue.

And please stop denying your everyday reality, where you readily banter what you want for what you can get.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:15 PM

16. Amazed at how some folks jump to the extreme positive on every republican idea Obama puts out.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:42 PM

19. +1 nt

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:29 PM

23. +1

 

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:11 PM

44. "extreme positive"?? WHERE, please? Everyone, including PAUL KRUGMAN, is saying it's too early. SHOW

me ONE instance of someone saying the CPI proposal is extremely positive.

Once more, and how the fucking hell can anyone make this any clearer: EVERYTHING, that's EVERYTHING, as in ALL BUDGET AREAS are on the table right now. You do recall the Budget Sequestration deal that occurred in 2011?

What part of EVERYTHING do people not understand?

In whose interest is this to turn EVERYTHING into ONE THING - hysteria about slowing in the growth rate of Soc Sec, the Chained CPI?

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Response to patrice (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:16 AM

74. You'd think that "on the table" meant "Agreed to be eliminated"

It's just a bargaining mechanism, not a execution. Don't lose your heads, folks!



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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:42 PM

18. Um, I don't agree with your ACA example

I knew what was in it and still thought it was awful, considering the "political capital" expended to get it passed. It was, in his own words, very much like a GOP proposal from years ago. He will tell you himself that it wasn't that long ago he'd be considered a "moderate republican". THAT'S why people react so strongly, because they AREN'T moderate republicans.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:36 PM

30. so was Lincoln JFK RFK

 

the 1% who are whiners do not make up the vast core Obama voters who are not sweating the small stuff and looking at the big picture

How was that Nader thing doing for 2000?

The threats to not vote for dems in 2014 are so stupid...the only sense I see is that by electing non-dems, the whiners can whine even more that the dems lost
(I get dizzy circling that logic to find a logical end there)

dog-tail-dog-tail-tail-dog-dog-tail chasing

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:07 AM

69. Is there a coherent thought in there somewhere

"so was Lincoln JFK RFK"

They were what? Moderate republicans by any standard of their day or prior? No, they weren't. Lincoln was barely a republican and they didn't like him much at all. For one thing, he had a democratic VP. And I have no idea why you brought up Nader. I didn't vote for Nader, I didn't support Nader, and I voted for Obama TWICE.

And where did I "threaten" not to vote for anyone?

Like I say, do you actually have a coherent thought to express or are you just in it for the yelling?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #69)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:57 AM

71. so at least you agree that Mike Bloomberg is doing great things and should be Homeland Security head

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #71)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:43 AM

81. What?

Did you respond to the wrong thread or something? Where did Bloomberg and HSA come into this discussion?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:48 PM

20. Hell, we've both been here for over 10 years! You're not really amazed, are you?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:09 PM

21. This is their cycle. Ad nauseam. I was wondering when they'd all come back.

 

They must have gotten tired of hanging out around that Old Rotten Elm.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:27 PM

22. I get tired of it when some people are considered 'holy cows' that one should not criticize.

I'm not saying that about you necessarily, but I do notice that often, people here will build someone up to the point that they are almost untouchable. Initially, you couldn't criticize Obama here because he was granted DU sainthood. Before that- it was Saint Howard Dean. No-one is perfect, and even someone you may adore will do some effed up things.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:29 PM

24. Amazed at how some folks gobble up shit and call it filet mignon.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 PM

32. It's possible to think that about either side of what we're seeing here. Who's right? nt

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Response to patrice (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:21 PM

48. I'm tired of your senseless posts. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:56 PM

49. Typical.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:32 PM

27. OUR problem is Congress. & We are setting ourselves up for a fall in 2014. People won't vote in

support for a President that they perceive as "weak" or whom they can't trust. Divide & Conquer. The Republican agenda is moving along quite nicely in that regard.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:33 PM

28. Obama roped the dopes yet again.

 

the Naderites are so yesterday

2000 proved they will never win ever

but it don't stop the whining

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:38 PM

31. Make that: Naderites reincarnated as Anarchists reinforced by eager LiberTea Trolls.

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Response to patrice (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:42 PM

33. Yup. I am sure most of his money in 2000 and 2004 came from the right

 

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:14 AM

91. Keep trying chief.

One day you'll manage a coherent thought, and we'll all cheer for you and throw you a party.

If anyone here was a Naderite, they probably wouldn't be here. I worked to get Obama elected, did you? Because Romney winning would've pissed off liberals more, and that seems to be your raison d'etre.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:34 PM

29. Jay Gould, "I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half" . . .

Let's consider a definition of "hire" that includes things like provide various kinds of rewards, including the social gratification and status of getting on the internet and flaming away with little or no actual information.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:50 PM

38. I'm with you

we really don't know what's going on, but we know he'll have to give up SOMETHING in negotiations, it's a fact of life. Personally, i would like to go over the slope and start from the new place in January. Repugs could cut taxes and Obama could veto what he doesn't want. As for the current negotiations, it may be that Obama is simply setting them up for a fall again. He knows boner won't be able to perform (with tea bags in the house) so maybe what Obama is proposing is things that will make him look like he's really trying to concede something, only to have the repugnants shoot it down, a way of making sure that they take the blame for everything

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:07 PM

42. Par for the course with many on this board intent on sowing dissent. It's their only purpose.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:36 AM

55. We know the facts. Obama is not a saint. He is a man who makes mistakes.

And chaining the CPI would be a huge one. We are on Obama's side when he is doing the right thing, but not when he is wrong.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:42 AM

57. You're talking about people who have no

concept of what it means to be a politician in Washington. It's easy for them to sit on their idealistic soap boxes and boo hoo everything he does, but the truth is he has never misrepresented himself. He's either done, or at least attempted to do, everything he has promised. And sometimes that has required him to take less than what he—and we—hoped for.

You can't get ANYTHING done in politics without compromise. But in their eyes, Obama isn't allowed to compromise. It's a childish, black and white point of view that only frustrates them and insults the rest of us.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:21 AM

60. nah...it`s so much easier to prejudge


why in the hell would anyone trust and base opinions on what any of the talking heads and the writers in the main and not so main stream media say and write?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:36 AM

61. And it is amazing that some folks agree with killing off old folks.

How about you start living on less and less every year.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:10 AM

66. He's the adult in the room. Sometimes children hate adults. It's that simple.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:27 AM

67. From what I've seen recently

He's pushing us over the cliff is the new meme. Oh God, not the cliff..

oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..................................

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:16 AM

70. Amazed? Then you haven't been paying attention.

Yes, those of us on the left are aware and quite disappointed that the President is a moderate, ultimately. We're still smarting from Bill Clinton's triangulation. Obama regularly reminds us that there appears to be no liberal party that has any political power in the United States. We'd like to feel represented.

For further information, see my sig. line.

-Laelth

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:33 AM

76. caving is caving, he said one thing and then does what the cons want instead

but of course those who worship at the feet of obama will attempt to justify any action he takes no matter how vile or reprehensible....

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:33 AM

77. we're completely ignoring NDAA

we used to care about civil liberties, but out of affection for Obama we stopped caring about it.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:50 AM

83. And I'm amazed how some folks accept the same actions from Obama that they condemned Bush for

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #83)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:31 PM

97. no, Obama goes forward. talking about Bush goes backwards

 

In 2016 it will be Hillary vs. Jeb Bush

if you don't like Bush, don't vote for Jeb, it is quite simple

I for one will be voting for HIllary45 as a continuation from the singular greatest president since LBJ, and I don't want radical change away from that.

Because to paraphrase a pizza box, I've had the best, why try the rest?

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:01 AM

84. What good does waiting for the agreement before we protest it do? It's too late then.

Obama is the one who offered chained CPI and that's already a fact. It might be a trial balloon. In which case I will protest it loud and clear, as I hope many many more of us will do, to make him withdraw the offer.

Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. It's not part of the budget in the first place! Why in hell would he even put it on the table??

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:04 AM

85. People (some) no longer posses the ability to think for themselves

They get their talking points from...Rush, Fox and the like...

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Response to Tippy (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:40 AM

89. And just as bad ...

we are willing to live and breathe whatever our favorite pundit blogged about yesterday, without pausing to think, maybe ... just maybe ... our favorite pundit possesses a lesser access to the information that the POTUS is using to make the decisions he does. For example, not a single person critical of President Obama has set foot into the negotiation room, nor have they demonstrated an ability to extrapolate how this or that economic policy will impact the non-economic world.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 AM

93. Waiting for the facts is a foreign concept 'round these parts. Nice effort on your part.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:05 PM

99. Amazing how many DUers have surrendered to speculation.

But if you enjoy childish, unoriginal Presidential insults then this is the place to be.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:24 AM

107. Exactly.

This may not be 11-dimensional chess, but Occam's razor doesn't fit, either..........SMH.

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Response to Yavin4 (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:41 AM

109. I'm not amazed at all. The PUMAs are still here, and still bitter.

Their "concern" and "disappointment" is so fake.

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