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Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:44 AM

Republicans Are Blowing Up Negotiations Because Boehner Is Weak & Republicans Are Crazy

...amd folks are coming out of the wood work saying that President Obama caved?

The revenue numbers on the table are about what everyone thought would be in the range of a deal. The taxes to spending cuts are about 1 to 1, which many folks who consider "balanced."

Yet, despite the fact that it cuts spending and make serious in-roads on cutting the defict, Boehner is grand standing and trying to pass a bill that Democrats have uniformly rejected out of hand?

Why? Because Boehner learned Tuesday night that he does not have the votes for any deal that Democrats could concievably accept. Thus, the whole purpose of Plan B is for Republicans to pass the most reasonable sounding bill that they can stomach, which they know Democrats will not accept, so that they can try to get the corporate media to support them in blaming Democrats.

My question is why do so many liberals fall for it? If President Obama did not make any movement at all on spending, the public would blame him and Democrats for not being serious about addressing the deficit, which would strengthen the hand of Republicans when it came to the debt limit crisis that they will cook up in a month or so.

Seriously, the same folks who point to the 2011 debt limit talks forget that Boehner and Republicans walked away from a possible deal that would even make Boehner's Plan B look great. Now, President Obama's rumored proposal is still far better than anything that was put on the table in 2011.

My read is that President Obama does seriously want to address the deficit and he is willing to compromise to get to deal. Yet, the truth that we repeatedly ignore is that Republicans are way to extreme to make any plausible deal. I personally think that President Obama knows that Boehner can't close a deal now. Boehner knows it too. Boehner went through a month of negotiations that he knew he did not have the authority to close a deal on. Now, with President Obama making some concessions, Boehner is trying to find a graceful way to blow up any deal.

Republicans do not want a deal! While on the liberal side, you have some folks who happily say lets go over the cliff, on the Republican side, these folks are in the majority because they really do not care about creating another recession of risking a credit default.

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Reply Republicans Are Blowing Up Negotiations Because Boehner Is Weak & Republicans Are Crazy (Original post)
TomCADem Dec 2012 OP
Texin Dec 2012 #1
TomCADem Dec 2012 #42
forestpath Dec 2012 #2
rusty fender Dec 2012 #6
forestpath Dec 2012 #8
rusty fender Dec 2012 #40
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #13
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #29
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #36
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #38
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #12
forestpath Dec 2012 #17
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #22
forestpath Dec 2012 #23
cliffordu Dec 2012 #25
flamingdem Dec 2012 #3
reformist2 Dec 2012 #20
bemildred Dec 2012 #4
Jennicut Dec 2012 #7
bemildred Dec 2012 #9
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #5
savalez Dec 2012 #11
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #18
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #31
AlinPA Dec 2012 #44
Liberal_Stalwart71 Dec 2012 #45
AlinPA Dec 2012 #46
Cosmocat Dec 2012 #10
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #14
Cosmocat Dec 2012 #19
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #32
musiclawyer Dec 2012 #15
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #24
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #33
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #35
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #37
Jim Lane Dec 2012 #16
reformist2 Dec 2012 #21
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2012 #34
Jim Lane Dec 2012 #39
BeyondGeography Dec 2012 #26
Filibuster Harry Dec 2012 #27
Cha Dec 2012 #30
wryter2000 Dec 2012 #28
kalli007 Dec 2012 #41
AlinPA Dec 2012 #43

Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:17 AM

1. I believe this whole "negotiating" thing is nothing but elaborate Kabuki theatrics

and posturing - on both sides.

The rethugs aren't going to accept anything that Obama can propose and still appear as if he's trying to compromise. I believe anything that relates to SS and/or Medicare is something that he's floating out there to make it seem like he's trying to play ball with them. But...I don't think for a second that he believes they're going to accept anything that's being proposed. At this point, both Obama and Boehner are merely playing political ping-pong with their respective parties' sacred cows: SS and perpetual tax cuts. At the end of the day, nothing is going to happen. Obama knows that the Dems (most of them at any rate) in both houses of congress won't go along with cuts to SS regardless of how the cuts are formulated. He also knows that Boehner doesn't have any political power to wield in order to cram any proposal down the throats of the house teabaggers. I think this is all political posturing and playing out the clock. In January, there will be more Dems in both houses and Boehner will probably lose his Speaker status. In any case, it appears to me that Obama thinks that the only deal that can be done will come after the dive off the fiscal cliff and after the rethugs become tarred with it having been their fault. Further, I think he belives that any deal that eventually passes in the Senate will have to be aproved by the majority of Dems and that won't be likely if SS is on the table.

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Response to Texin (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:04 AM

42. Just Pointing Out That Boehner's Plan B Fail Proves My Point

This is not elaborate Kabuki theater. This is a train wreck of governance on the Republican side that the corporate media has been trying to hide. Look at the news reports that tried to paint Plan B as some sort of strategic master stroke by the Republicans. Even liberal media outlets were painting Plan B as a huge blow to President Obama with Republicans working together to put pressure on Democrats.

The truth is that Republicans have no coherent idea of how to govern. Yet, watch the media continue to give them a free pass. I bet David Gergen will start advising the President to take whatever comes out of the House because you can't blame the Republicans. They are just crazy like that, thus President Obama is responsible if we go over the cliff and default on the Nation's debt.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:19 AM

2. Obama put SS on the chopping block. He showed his intentions. He can't unshow them.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:54 AM

6. Look, given what Republicans have become,

the chained CPI is the best deal we can get. Yes, SS should not be decreased, but it's effects could be mitigated by food stamps and other programs.

I am not a knee-jerk cheerleader for the President because I base my praise/criticism of him on results. This chained CPI deal is not catastrophic, and the tax increase on high incomes is badly needed. This deal is not the end of the world!

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:13 PM

8. Food stamps?!? Oh, that makes it all better. Like hell chained CPI is the "best deal we can get."

 

President Obama sold us out. Putting seniors on food stamps so the wealthy don't have to pay higher taxes is obscene.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:03 PM

40. I've switched to your side on the chained CPI

I was listening to Thom Hartman and he explained how the chained CPI would work. I thought it would be a fixed percentage, but it isn't. It will just keep diminishing SS as recipients change their buying habits. If an item becomes too expensive, recipients will cut back on that item, and their SS check will be reduced because they've stopped buying that item, not because that item has become less expensive!

I think that Obama is caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. On the one hand he is bending over backward to get the Repukes to agree to something, anything, and when he gives them what they want, they ask for more.

Obama's first mistake was to negotiate with the Repukes in the first place.

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:00 PM

13. Partially agree

I don't think food stamps will mitigate the problem much, but if they formulate the CPI in a way that will protect poorer beneficiaries I think it is better than other changes the GOP wants that would fundamentally change the structure of SS and Medicare. Also, cuts to SS benefits can always be mitigated by a tweak or a refundable tax credit. Something like raising the Medicare age would have been much much harder to undo or mitigate.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:31 PM

29. You mean like has been suggested by President Obama; ...

but is continously being ignored here?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:04 PM

36. Exactly

I am all for making our voices heard but it is mind boggling to see people here call the president a fraud and a secret Republican and other disparaging names without knowing how the CPI thing will be structured.

People seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that could sustain SS over the long term except raising the cap, which I agree is the best solution but not one that could ever get passed in this congress, and not something that should really be considered until the economy recovers.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:31 PM

38. Well, ...

People seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that could sustain SS over the long term except raising the cap, which I agree is the best solution but not one that could ever get passed in this congress, and not something that should really be considered until the economy recovers.


Not exactly everything; I read here the other day that lower the eligibility age for SS would make the program more sustainable.

I kid you not!

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Response to forestpath (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:36 PM

12. Obama hates us.

You should start a group here on DU called something like Progressive Prez 2016. Your going to be stuck with Obama for 4 more years. Might as well get busy figuring out who you really want for the next Presidential election.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:48 PM

17. Don't tell me what to do.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:13 AM

22. Welcome to the internet.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:23 AM

23. Welcome to my ignore list, bully.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:53 PM

25. This canard is getting old.

He could have 'offered' them ANYTHING knowing they will NEVER agree.

It was designed to illustrate just how intransigent the R's have become.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:23 AM

3. Is this going to blow up the stock market?

Wondering what all this means at the end of the year for the markets.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:08 AM

20. Probably. They're all under the impression that everything would go according to plan.

The moment Wall Street feels like they've lost control over Washington, they freak out.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 AM

4. This is all just an elaborate stall, we are going over the cliff.

The theatrics are about who gets the blame for the cuts. Obama has made plausible concessions, but it won't be near enough for the Republicans in their present mood.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:00 PM

7. I have a feeling no deal will ever be made.

No one will be happy about any deal anyway. Just go over the cliff and then see what Repubs will be willing to accept.

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Response to Jennicut (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

9. I don't think the Republicans can get their shit together well enough to agree to anything.

I don't see anything happening until next year. Then there will be some fireworks.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:37 AM

5. I believe that Cantor and his Teabagger freaks have but Boehner in a bind. No matter where he goes,

he loses. And he WILL lose the Speakership. Boehner is trying to save his job. That's all this is. I hope the president knows what he's doing. I have all confidence that he does.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:32 PM

11. You think so?

That would be fantastic if Boner lost the Speakership. I hope you're right.

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Response to savalez (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:05 PM

18. Actually it would be worse. Cantor directs the Teabagger Brigade.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:34 PM

31. Yep. n/t

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:09 PM

44. It won't matter who the GOP speaker is. They do not want to work with the President. Period.

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Response to AlinPA (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 07:08 AM

45. Not denying that. Just suggesting that Cantor is more dangerous and despicable.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 22, 2012, 01:39 PM

46. He certainly is despicable.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:25 PM

10. The republican being complete jackasses

sadly might be the saving grace to the President bending too far their direction.

There is NO reason to go as far as he has gone to this point, even.

But, you are likely correct that these lunatics can't even take a deal they don't deserve (in that is sucks enough that in their lunatic world view they should be happy to get it).

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:01 PM

14. You don't think he predicted them blowing this up?

It would be one thing if he made the offer in private. But the fact that he leaked it tells me that he knew they wouldn't take it and wants to make sure they get blamed if we go over the cliff.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:56 AM

19. That isn't who he is

Since when does Barrack Obama operate like that.

I have never known him to say what he does not mean.

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:35 PM

32. Since forever. n/t

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:17 PM

15. POTUS is smarter than lot of us

But putting SS on the table was not cool unless he knew they would reject his proposal.

At this juncture we NEED to go over the cliff and simply pick off some vulnerable GOPers to reduce the taxes on the 99% .
Very doable given that GOP refusal assures their losing the House 21 months later.

Deal with the nonsense of spending limit after that

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Response to musiclawyer (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:31 PM

24. Going over the cliff won't protect SS

Because the GOP will still have leverage to force cuts (maybe bigger ones) when the debt ceiling has to be raised. If the president can resolve that now entitlements are safer, arguably.

If we go over the cliff, there will be pressure on the president and Congress to act quickly. The GOP might offer everything the president wants except the debt ceiling, and he will be under pressure not to hold it up because of that. So he might have to sign what they pass, especially if they give him the middle class tax cuts and unemployment insurance, and then he will have given away his leverage in the debt ceiling fight and they can demand, as they did before, $1 in spending cuts for every $1 they raise the ceiling by.

That's why I think any deal that deals w/the debt ceiling now, preferably forever but even for 2 years, might be worth making some sacrifices for, as awful as the chained CPI is, because this deal is a LOT better than the deal we would have gotten in 2011, and arguably better than the deal that would emerge if the debt ceiling is dealt with separately from the tax issue.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:37 PM

33. Welcome to my ...

"Look for and Read" list.

Though we do not agree on a lot ... I see some reasoned thought.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:50 PM

35. Thanks. You seem pretty reasonable

What do we disagree on?

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:05 PM

37. Shhh ...

Calling me reasonable, even pretty reasonable, will get you on a bunch of others' other list.

What do we disagree on?


I can't recall at the moment ... I just seem to recall an instance where I didn't agree with one of your conclusions. Be not violently so ... It must have been that reasoned thought part.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:31 PM

16. The point that's being obscured: The federal budget deficit is TOO SMALL.

You write, "My read is that President Obama does seriously want to address the deficit...." If by "address" you mean "reduce" then you're actually criticizing Obama. Any plan that reduces the 2013 deficit will retard the recovery; if it reduces the deficit enough, it will trigger a new recession.

BTW, this includes plans that raise taxes on the rich. There is a trickle-down effect, in that lower taxes for the rich do help spark economic activity. It's just not a very efficient way to do it (even aside from fairness). Adding a dollar to the federal deficit through tax breaks for the rich has much less stimulative effect than other methods, such as extending unemployment benefits. Therefore, going over the cliff is better for the economy than what the Republicans want. Still, in this context, "better" means "does less harm."

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:12 AM

21. It takes guts to say that - and you're probably right.

All the indicators point to a massive deflationary spiral if we don't keep stimulating this economy, imo.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:42 PM

34. Doesn't that largely depend on HOW the deficit is reduced?

President Obama's rumored proposal reduces the deficit, while INCREASING stimulative spending ... and, for the record, keeping the current CPI model, what many here are hair on fire about, is not stimulative.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:37 PM

39. Yes, that's certainly a factor.

My point is that any deal to reduce the deficit could be improved by adding more stimulative spending, to get it to the point where it would increase rather than reduce the deficit. That would be better for the country.

I'm not holding Obama entirely at fault here. The result of Republican intransigence is that there's essentially no hope of getting a good stimulus package.

Obama is to blame, however, for falling into line with the deficit hysteria. He should be taking it on directly. For example, instead of saying that government needs to tighten its belt in tough times, which is exactly wrong, he should be going on TV to explain why the economy needs the federal government to run a deficit right now. Wider popular understanding of the point would somewhat weaken the Republicans' leverage, and also set them up to suffer in 2014 for their intransigence.

As for the CPI, my offhand guess is that paying higher Social Security benefits is, overall, less stimulative than some things, such as extending unemployment insurance benefits, but more stimulative than others, such as tax cuts for the rich. Generally, there's more stimulative effect when people are more likely to spend the money they get. Social Security goes to people at all levels of income, so the stimulative effect would be an average. Why do you say that keeping the current CPI is not stimulative? I'd consider it stimulative as compared with the proposed switch to chained CPI.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:07 PM

26. Yup...Boehner is taking that ride

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:23 PM

27. Boehner's Plan B is a joke. Balanced?? Tax rate increases on over $ 1 million while also

eliminating credits for the poor and middle class. Sure mr. speaker -- that is balanced. Business leaders are on Obama's side. They are willing to take increased taxes on the top 2 brackets (now $ 400,000) and for sure 20% max on dividends (obama 's plan this year was at ordinary rates). If the cliff happens, then the dividends go to regular rates; rates go up on everyone; payroll tax cut is eliminated; stocks will dip; another recession to the businesses. Good job Mr. Speaker.

Oh, and does the credit rating go down again? Another historic moment for the speaker or should I say weeper of the house.

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Response to Filibuster Harry (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:33 PM

30. This is Plan B-oner, the rodeo clown.. Tweet from Nancy..

Nancy Pelosi

✔@NancyPelosi RT ‏@whitehouse The facts about Republicans' "Plan B": The wealthy get tax cuts, while the middle class foots the bill: pic.twitter.com/oCVsPhax



http://theobamadiary.com/2012/12/20/rise-and-shine-379/#comments

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:23 PM

28. While I agree with you in general,

I'm still alarmed that the President would include Social Security in any deal. It doesn't contribute to the deficit, except to the extent that he's using general funds to pay for the payroll tax cut. It's a program that a huge percentage of the public needs. and it's something they've been trying to destroy since the 1930s. Let him find other "spending" to negotiate.

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:36 PM

41. Best. Title. Ever.

Nt

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Response to TomCADem (Original post)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 09:05 PM

43. I agree that republicans do not want any deal with the President. Boehner is just playing the

GOP game of obstruction. Boehner is doing exactly what teabaggers want him to do and he is perfectly comfortable with it. It's bullshit that "he can't control his caucus"- it's all a game to them and he is playing it.

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