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uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 08:52 AM Nov 2016

Bernie Sanders did NOT ... NOT say ditch identity politics !!!

Last edited Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:24 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/22/1602890/-Bernie-Sanders-identity-politics-economic-populism-and-the-Democratic-Party

I'll conceded I don't see how in context of this election the woman comment was needed at all... what the fuck was he thinking!?

and

Sanders could've said "here's the way you can be the 2nd Latino Senator and please fight for the middle class as hard as you can and you'll win big" was spot on without the other words around it.

But this is from Sanders speech (not click bate stories)

In other words, one of the struggles that you’re going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond “identity politics.” I think it’s a step forward in America if you have an African-American head or CEO of some major corporation. But do you know what? If that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country and exploiting his workers, doesn’t mean a whole hell of a lot if he’s black or white or Latino.


I still feel that soreness of Cornell West (that was some bullshit) but lets agree that we don't care what package the person comes in if they're going to do 95% of the same thing the republicans are going to do then fuck em .... no matter what their identity is.

your take?

tia
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Bernie Sanders did NOT ... NOT say ditch identity politics !!! (Original Post) uponit7771 Nov 2016 OP
That's not the quote I've seen BainsBane Nov 2016 #1
I agree, I would like to see a video... the link I posted is the whole thing transcribed though uponit7771 Nov 2016 #2
I posted the video...and I do not agree after watching it. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #4
He went off on her BainsBane Nov 2016 #8
Hmmmm, so "here's the way you can be the 2nd Latino Senator and please fight for the middle uponit7771 Nov 2016 #10
She is a woman. I am sorry but I think that matters to Bernie. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #17
Yep. Me either. And it sounds like he thinks WhiteTara Nov 2016 #27
I think that worst thing in this election is finding out that misogyny exists on the left as well as Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #73
It has been there since the 1960s. duffyduff Nov 2016 #76
I am surrounded by really good guys...hubs, brothers,friends and my son... Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #87
Oh, for Pete's sake. duffyduff Nov 2016 #88
I don't disagree. But the men I have come in contact with were not sexist. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #89
This. Misogyny AND racism... MADem Nov 2016 #94
Teddy stayed in longer in '80 and was far uglier about it. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #48
Good grief. ucrdem Nov 2016 #49
Of course I know what happened 53 years ago. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #53
Well we failed to learn from history then. ucrdem Nov 2016 #66
The lesson of history is NOT that there should be no serious contest for the nomination. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #78
The lesson of 2008 was exactly that. ucrdem Nov 2016 #79
It was never Hillary or nothing. She was never the only possible winner we had. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #81
Are you kidding? She BARELY beat Scott Brown. MADem Nov 2016 #95
I consistently see that particular unsupported allegation. LanternWaste Nov 2016 #122
Bull! Social media wasn't around back then. grossproffit Nov 2016 #55
And Ted Kennedy refused to work with Carter on health care as well Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #59
We couldn't have won if Hillary had faced no primary opposition, either. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #62
We needed to focus on securing the vote. We got distracted. ucrdem Nov 2016 #65
You think so. I don't agree. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #72
It isn't "either/or". Ken Burch Nov 2016 #80
I agree! OhioBlue Nov 2016 #77
And it's Hillary's fault that Obama lost the 2008 election! BlueProgressive Nov 2016 #83
The primary was not even close to as bitter as 16. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #86
Actually Ted's failure to compromise with Nixon on healthcare BlueProgressive Nov 2016 #84
Neither Carter nor Ted would work together. Carter did try in fact. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #85
I remember him giving his stump speech, pretty much. MADem Nov 2016 #108
He has a PROBLEM with powerful women. MADem Nov 2016 #93
Watch the video. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #3
The politico link I posted had this word for word, I do agree the woman part was NOT needed at uponit7771 Nov 2016 #6
I think it is divisive and hurts our party. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #14
I think he is divisive and he hurts our party. WhiteTara Nov 2016 #28
I have to say Schumer made an error on this...no way a non-Democrat should Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #60
an old white man endorsing another old white man. nt WhiteTara Nov 2016 #74
It's not a real leadership role. It's a title with no money or staff. MADem Nov 2016 #97
This proves my point about him being a New Left Marxist. duffyduff Nov 2016 #39
Reminds me of an old general fighting the last war. MADem Nov 2016 #5
I know BainsBane Nov 2016 #7
"...how is it that he doesn't recognize white nationalism as identity politics?" True point... uponit7771 Nov 2016 #9
He shit on women more than once in that mess. MADem Nov 2016 #36
I am in the LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OUTTA THE WAY school of thought MADem Nov 2016 #21
I have zero doubts about that. BainsBane Nov 2016 #22
He knows full well what he is doing. Women and POC don't count in his world. duffyduff Nov 2016 #40
How could he. His political career is deep in identity politics. NCTraveler Nov 2016 #11
Forked Tongue Syndrome otohara Nov 2016 #34
Oh FFS Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #67
I will. Thank you. NCTraveler Nov 2016 #69
Never claimed he was infallible Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #70
He is not my own when... NCTraveler Nov 2016 #71
Wonderful advice. Too bad that Sanders and his diehards didn't heed it before the election. lapucelle Nov 2016 #130
He's to be primaried at that midterm, if his putative challenger steps up. MADem Nov 2016 #98
Howard Dean! lapucelle Nov 2016 #129
Not Howard--if we're lucky he will be DNC chair soon. MADem Dec 2016 #132
Anyone who weaponized a presidential election vote by staying home or going third party lapucelle Nov 2016 #128
Anyone named "Bernie" lapucelle Nov 2016 #127
The main issue is that a lot of left wingers have concluded forjusticethunders Nov 2016 #12
Yeap, Obama and Clinton weren't progressive "enough" and to some that was a call for outright ... uponit7771 Nov 2016 #13
Unfortunately, not being white males and advocating for non-white, non-male interests forjusticethunders Nov 2016 #15
It is all about economics with Bernie... Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #18
I want to see how HE managed his personal economic situation before he MADem Nov 2016 #24
You have to wonder what is in those taxes. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #25
It's not a real leadership position, IMO. MADem Nov 2016 #26
He's been in Congress 20 years metroins Nov 2016 #29
Every time she "addressed," the MEDIA piled on--they're admitting this in MADem Nov 2016 #30
Not the media's fault metroins Nov 2016 #31
Are you KIDDING? "Not the media's fault?" MADem Nov 2016 #33
Because they're not required to metroins Nov 2016 #35
For decades you have been "carefully taught" by that media to hate her. MADem Nov 2016 #41
I don't hate her, I like Hillary metroins Nov 2016 #44
"Blaming external sources for your failure is bad practice." MADem Nov 2016 #50
When it's theft, protect yourself more nt metroins Nov 2016 #52
I think Vladimir reached his high water mark. MADem Nov 2016 #57
Well that makes me feel somewhat better. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #61
I'd like to OriginalGeek Nov 2016 #91
Chuck Schumer didn't just fall off the turnip truck. MADem Nov 2016 #99
Bernie apparently doesn't think race and gender are the most defining factors ismnotwasm Nov 2016 #16
Kellyann has already used Bernie's identity comment. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #19
I also think there are a lot of kind of well meaning leftists forjusticethunders Nov 2016 #20
And that is completely ridculous for them to think that. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #23
Tulsi Gabbard is an Islamophobe. MADem Nov 2016 #42
Yeah she will. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #63
An appalling number of those "leftists" were racists and misogynists Maru Kitteh Nov 2016 #45
That is because he is a 1960s New Left Marxist. duffyduff Nov 2016 #38
Bingo Maru Kitteh Nov 2016 #46
Angela Davis is a Marxist. Ken Burch Nov 2016 #51
It disqualifies her from "being a serious candidate for the Presidency." MADem Nov 2016 #100
How do you not see that that comment is based on the premise kcr Nov 2016 #32
He is a 1960s New Left Marxist. It has never left him. duffyduff Nov 2016 #37
I'm closer to the Marxist Left but I am well aware we have intersectionality issues to work out forjusticethunders Nov 2016 #47
Yes! ismnotwasm Nov 2016 #56
It is all about easy sexual access with the left dudes. You nailed it. duffyduff Nov 2016 #68
The issue is women's autonomy, women are their own persons who make their own decisions forjusticethunders Nov 2016 #75
Those early writings are certainly a clue. nt MADem Nov 2016 #96
I am madly in love with your comments. Thank you! betsuni Nov 2016 #114
I am not okay with how Bernie has behaved post-election. Really childish. Justice Nov 2016 #43
He did say it -- I saw the video in this thread. That said: Raine1967 Nov 2016 #54
Oh, let's beat up on Bernie. THAT'LL end divisiveness. Yep. Sure. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #58
Bernard is the one who offered to work with Trump and gave the speech. Demsrule86 Nov 2016 #64
No. Let's be honest about what he is, and what he is not. MADem Nov 2016 #101
"racists and sexists:" From what I hear on DU, there are plenty right here, whatever the class. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #103
What "common good" can be achieved from normalizing a racist/sexist by working with them? MADem Nov 2016 #104
So I take it your answer is "no." Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #105
This is not a "Peace in our time" moment. MADem Nov 2016 #107
Ah, the "Trump camp." Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #109
You seriously think Trump is going to give you health care for all??? MADem Nov 2016 #115
No he won't; that is your fanciful take. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #116
Not one with the power of the executive. MADem Nov 2016 #117
Well, that leaves the path clear: Work with his voting base. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #118
If his voting base margins come from Moscow, let's just reveal that. MADem Nov 2016 #119
I would agree with your proposal, but it wouldn't come near matching 40+ millions. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #121
Margins--not the whole magilla. MADem Nov 2016 #123
Best way to overcome that is to shoot even higher and get bigger margins. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #124
What we need to do is work hard to overcome the only game (besides MADem Nov 2016 #125
It was something of a political moonshot. forjusticethunders Dec 2016 #131
Sanders is correct HassleCat Nov 2016 #82
Often identity politics is a turnstile of approval, not a path to policy and action. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #106
yeh, who needs civil rights, amirite? robbedvoter Nov 2016 #110
We need them HassleCat Nov 2016 #112
Who? nt LexVegas Nov 2016 #90
He's been saying the same thing in various ways for years ecstatic Nov 2016 #92
They got their asses kicked by freaking Donald Trump ... and WE are still the ones who are wrong? nt ieoeja Nov 2016 #102
Well, this presages a looming battle within the Party... Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #111
I don't give a flying shit what Bernie says. Lil Missy Nov 2016 #113
Am I missing something? Kentonio Nov 2016 #120
Here's a fuller excerpt from Sanders's speech, with some context. lapucelle Nov 2016 #126

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
1. That's not the quote I've seen
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:02 AM
Nov 2016

Rather, I have seen that quote but also another. I hear there is a video. It would be helpful to see the comments in their entirety.

uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
2. I agree, I would like to see a video... the link I posted is the whole thing transcribed though
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:03 AM
Nov 2016

... IINM

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
8. He went off on her
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:13 AM
Nov 2016

He could have asked her, what do you plan to run on. Instead, he went off because she mentioned she wanted to be the second Latina senator.

uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
10. Hmmmm, so "here's the way you can be the 2nd Latino Senator and please fight for the middle
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:23 AM
Nov 2016

... class as hard as you can and you'll win big" would've been enough ... all the rest of that wasn't needed.

Fair point ... I'll add this to the OP ...

I still don't think he was saying leave ID politics out of it or don't focus on calling others out when they inject ID politics like DPutin has.

Maybe I'm still holding out for the dude ... his primary message rubbed me the wrong way but I think his heart is in it

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
17. She is a woman. I am sorry but I think that matters to Bernie.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 10:17 AM
Nov 2016

I have never seen a candidate refuse to concede a primary as he did...

WhiteTara

(29,670 posts)
27. Yep. Me either. And it sounds like he thinks
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:37 AM
Nov 2016

his brand of identity politics is okay, but us women need to get to the back of the bus and don't make mention of our sex.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
73. I think that worst thing in this election is finding out that misogyny exists on the left as well as
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:46 PM
Nov 2016

the right.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
76. It has been there since the 1960s.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:46 PM
Nov 2016

Hell, the second wave of feminism was a direct result of these New Left dudes treating the women like absolute shit.

The white male left is just as bad now.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
88. Oh, for Pete's sake.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:34 AM
Nov 2016

Nobody cares about your personal situation. It is a FACT the male left in the 1960s were assholes to women then. THAT is a direct cause of an independent women's movement. If you don't believe me, look it up.

Hell, I LIVED through the time, so I KNOW what they were like. They are STILL that way for the most part because of their blind worship of "sexual liberation." Bernie Sanders' dismissive tone toward women is proof sexism on the left is still rampant.

I hate to break it to you, but sexism is non-partisan.

Good lord, it isn't about YOU.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
89. I don't disagree. But the men I have come in contact with were not sexist.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:48 AM
Nov 2016

This includes people involved with boots on the ground during many elections. I am stating my experience. I was shocked and continue to be shocked at some of the things Bernie ( and his supporters) has said. I truly thought before this year, we had turned the page on misogyny at lease on the left side of the political spectrum.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
94. This. Misogyny AND racism...
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 12:53 PM
Nov 2016

It's a "Kinder, gentler misogyny and racism" but it's still there.

My eyes have been opened, I'll tell you that.

I always figured there were "a few" -- but so many? Damn.

Disappointing.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
48. Teddy stayed in longer in '80 and was far uglier about it.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 03:48 PM
Nov 2016

He'd have given up everything he believed in if he had withdrawn after Super Tuesday.

It wasn't Bernie's fault that we didn't carry the Upper Midwest. He did everything he could do to help in the fall.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
49. Good grief.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 03:59 PM
Nov 2016

Do you know what happened 53 years ago? Leave the Kennedys out of this, they did their part many times over.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
53. Of course I know what happened 53 years ago.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 04:08 PM
Nov 2016

And I still grieve the loss of those men, especially Bobby.

Just pointing out that it's not as though Bernie was the only candidate who stayed in.

He couldn't get out WITHOUT getting any guarantee that his principles would be included in the platform-and none of us would have expected Hillary to get out any earlier if the primaries had been reversed.

We would have included her exact wording on social justice issues(none of us ever actually called for those issues to be put on the back burner).

And if her supporters wanted to stage a peaceful protest during the speeches, we'd have been chill with that.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
79. The lesson of 2008 was exactly that.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:11 AM
Nov 2016

We knew what she was up against and we knew she'd need all the help she could get.

So what did we do?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
81. It was never Hillary or nothing. She was never the only possible winner we had.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:21 AM
Nov 2016

Elizabeth Warren had all of Hillary's strengths without any of the things Hillary had been targeted for. Trump couldn't have laid a glove on her or blamed her for anything from the past.

Yet she was clearly told to "wait her turn".

A candidate nominated without serious primary opposition is always going to fall short in the fall. 2000 and 2004 showed us that. We can't win when the primary process is bland and so is the platform. And the platform of an acclimation candidate will always be bland and meaningless.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
95. Are you kidding? She BARELY beat Scott Brown.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:23 PM
Nov 2016

If he hadn't over-used his snide "Perfesser" schtick, rather like a Mel Blanc cartoon character, and half-way prepared for debate, he would have done better than he did on that end, too. A candidate with a sharp knife-like wit could have been her undoing.

Massachusetts has a sense of decency. That "Pocahontas" shit gained a bit of traction, but then when Scott's Bro Brigade started tomahawk chopping and using misogynistic commentaries, Bay Staters recoiled.

You think that would have been the case in the rust belt? They would have eaten her for LUNCH. "Pocahontas" would have been a FEATURE, not a bug.

People have this MISTAKEN idea that Warren sailed to victory. She did not. It was a hard fought battle and it was all hands on deck to make it happen. I drove over a HUNDRED people to the polls that day.

She hobbled to victory, held up by the MOST OUT-OF-STATE MONEY ever spent on a MA Senate campaign. Again--EVER spent. It wasn't some home-grown, truth-will-set-you-free exercise. It was cash, cash and more cash--and a shitload of outta towners coming in and organizing. She didn't do that on her own.

Facts matter. She would have been crushed, not won almost two million more votes than that Orange Anus "winner."

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
122. I consistently see that particular unsupported allegation.
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 05:36 PM
Nov 2016

"Yet she was clearly told to "wait her turn..."

I consistently see that particular unsupported allegation. I'm guessing it's a placeholder until something else, valid, rational and of substance can me constructed-- 'cause an unsupported allegation ain't valid or rational.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
59. And Ted Kennedy refused to work with Carter on health care as well
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:07 PM
Nov 2016

It was also the biggest regret of his life. I go to church with a woman who worked for him towards the end of his life. This has nothing to do with what I said...we lost that election too so I guess that is not really a good example of how a bitter primary helps anyone...it gave us Reagan...and we are still trying to recover from Reagan. Trump will be much worse. It is Bernie's fault that we lost states by such close votes...the bitter primary turned voters against Hillary and enough of those voters stayed home or voted for Trump...so we lost the election. I do blame him. Had Bernie Sanders not entered the primary, we would have Pres. Clinton. WE are so screwed, but Bernie...new book...great speeches about the Democratic Party even though he is not a Democrat...yeah...he did OK.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
62. We couldn't have won if Hillary had faced no primary opposition, either.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:16 PM
Nov 2016

All that would have meant was that she would have said even less and run further to the right...neither of which would have gained us additional votes. Look at 2000 and 2004 to see what THAT kind of nominating process, the reduction of the whole thing to passionless "dead zone" politics, does to our chances.

What would have made a difference for the better was to have made her economic proposals a regular part of the ads...rather than the assumption that we could win just by calling out Trump on his behavior and personality.

We won the popular vote...but we will never improve on the EC performance by re-running the exact same campaign four years from now. To do that, we need to find the language that connects us, whoever we nominate, with the people who won't win under Trump.

This doesn't mean telling anyone to stop fighting for what they fight for...it means finding a way to combine that with things that appeal to people we couldn't connect with...and to turn non-voters into voters.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
65. We needed to focus on securing the vote. We got distracted.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:27 PM
Nov 2016

Yes, let's look at 2000 and 2004. Based on what we know about those two stolen presidencies we had no excuse for diverting our attention from the essential task of securing access to polls and assuring accurate accounting. But as far as I can tell there wasn't time for any of that and now we have a reality TV star in the WH.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
72. You think so. I don't agree.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:44 PM
Nov 2016

It was a close election...if Bernie had not criticized her every day for months and also the Democratic Party, I think we would have won. Consider, he hammered her on trade;that hurt us in the rust belt...you can say his running did not hurt her but I don't believe it...as for the rest of your post...I guess we should abandon the Obama coalition and chase racist white men...now the most important demographic in our country or so Bernie thinks according to his identity speech...who cares about civil liberties or doing what's right. Sorry, I am not on board with this and believe it will make the racists even bolder in their expressions of hatred against women, minorities, LGBTQ,undocumented workers and Muslims...tell me Ken should we come out with our own plan to register Muslims or jail LGBTQ...or perhaps abandon abortion rights? My daughter faced a gauntlet of Trump supporters after leaving a unity gathering. They had stalked the kids on facebook and found out where they met.. They were carrying hateful signs. I guess it could have been worse, Ohio is open carry. This happened at YSU in Youngstown Ohio...she was frightened. They taunted the kids and informed them they would all go to jail and then to hell for being so evil and all...these were 18 and 19-year-old gay kids...they carried signs praising the Orlando shooting... So fuck them all. I have no interest in winning 'back' such voters. I don't believe they were ever ours to lose. Seriously my greatest hope is they go where they told those poor kids they were going ...hell.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
80. It isn't "either/or".
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:14 AM
Nov 2016

And we don't need to abandon the social justice agenda, just add class solidarity and resistance to corporate power to it.

Nobody is calling for us to endorse any part of Trump's agenda.



 

BlueProgressive

(229 posts)
83. And it's Hillary's fault that Obama lost the 2008 election!
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:15 AM
Nov 2016

Her bitter primary against him was the reason for his loss. She shouldn't have run!

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
86. The primary was not even close to as bitter as 16.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:04 AM
Nov 2016

And she conceded before the convention. Bernie's refusal to concede when it became obvious he had lost cost us the election and will cost us more if the keeps criticizing the Democratic Party. Bernie ran her down...particularly in the area of trade daily for months...it hurt us.

 

BlueProgressive

(229 posts)
84. Actually Ted's failure to compromise with Nixon on healthcare
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 07:19 AM
Nov 2016

was 'the biggest regret of his life'. I just finished reading his book again.

Carter really wouldn't work with Ted on national health insurance, only wanted to pass some very small part of it-- and failed to push for even that crumb. That was probably the biggest policy reason that Kennedy felt compelled to challenge him in 1980.



Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
85. Neither Carter nor Ted would work together. Carter did try in fact.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 11:02 AM
Nov 2016

Pretty much the bitterness of the primary destroyed Carter's presidency...and I see a bitter divisive primary having the same effect today. We may lose more elections because of the primary.

"If only Carter had reached an agreement with Ted Kennedy and gotten that kind of cooperation with the United States Senate and House back in 1979, such regulatory legislation would not even be necessary. In those days, Carter had a plan for universal health care, but like much of his vision, that would have put the United States in a much better position today, it was never passed into law thanks to petty obstructionism in the Senate."

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3048699/jimmy-carter-says-ted-kennedy-is-to-blame-for-lack-of-universal-health-care-in-america/#hJ1QlALCCor7v75Y.99

MADem

(135,425 posts)
108. I remember him giving his stump speech, pretty much.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:10 PM
Nov 2016

A litany of complaints, with "Vote for Hillary" tacked on the end.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
93. He has a PROBLEM with powerful women.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 12:50 PM
Nov 2016

To me, that's pretty evident.

I really think he needs to team - build, not tear down. He seems incapable of doing that.

uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
6. The politico link I posted had this word for word, I do agree the woman part was NOT needed at
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:10 AM
Nov 2016

... all.. he could've left that out and made his point clearly.

On the other hand

Give me any [enter other than white male] person who says the same thing republicans say in regards to economics and I feel the same way about them.. fuck em.

He said its not enough ... that to me doesn't mean don't target people who are disaffected and bring them along...

jus my take

WhiteTara

(29,670 posts)
28. I think he is divisive and he hurts our party.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:40 AM
Nov 2016

I'm thinking about calling the DNC and canceling my membership. I've been a member of the party since I could vote and now they are bringing in someone as leader who doesn't like the party and refuses to join; why should I be a member?

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
60. I have to say Schumer made an error on this...no way a non-Democrat should
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:10 PM
Nov 2016

have any leadership role.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
97. It's not a real leadership role. It's a title with no money or staff.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:29 PM
Nov 2016

It's like a medal from the Wizard of Oz.

He's not a whip. Why? He wouldn't do the work required.

This is a faux sop to the lefties who "affiliate" with us but refuse to join. Just don't look too closely--it's not really brick and marble, it's painted plaster.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
39. This proves my point about him being a New Left Marxist.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 01:03 PM
Nov 2016

He doesn't give a SHIT about POC and women. If women and POC candidates don't pander to those stupid white dudes, they aren't worth bothering with in his view.

What a jackass. Another self-centered, entitled white male. What else is new? He needs to get out of public life.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. Reminds me of an old general fighting the last war.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:07 AM
Nov 2016

There's a lunatic heading for the White House, and it's going to get a helluva lot worse than overseas job losses or minority elites acting like white assholes.

He can't open his mouth without saying something divisive. It's not a good look.

It's all to do with selling that book, I'm afraid. This "fire up the base and make them feel like they're screwed" game sucks when Trump does it, too. And the shitting on WOMEN schtick, again? He has a problem with women. It stinks on ice--I see I wasn't the only person to notice this, and I agree with this guy's comments:


Brysynner Nov 22 · 05:05:53 AM
Worth noting that in both examples the Independent Senator from Vermont uses to explain people who use their gender or race as the sole reason to vote for them and not their policies both were women

But it is not good enough for somebody to say, “Hey, I’m a Latina, vote for me.
It is not good enough for someone to say, “I’m a woman. Vote for me!”



Are there people who say this? I mean I know very few supporters might say this but is this really a problem? If I were the Independent Senator from Vermont and had connection issues with non-Millennials I might try and work on phrasing, maybe have my newly diverse staff (as of 2015) check over my speech to make sure that I’m not just picking on women.

However I do applaud the Independent Senator from Vermont for going four paragraphs without jumping into his stump speech and not mentioning the millionaires and billionaires.



I'm just 'over' this kind of divisive chatter. I don't think it helps, I don't think it's valid. If you want a woman hater who purports to be a job creator, might as well look to that orange anus who is going to be sworn in come January. He's got all that sexism and xenophobia, plus racism, too.

BainsBane

(52,999 posts)
7. I know
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:12 AM
Nov 2016

I posted about this on FB and my aunt lectured me for talking about Bernie rather than focusing on Trump. I asked her why she didn't tell Bernie to do that. My comments might be read by 12 people, whereas Bernie's reach millions, yet I'm the problem.

He is very divisive, and he continues to direct the majority of his wrath toward Democrats and those from the most marginalized populations particularly. Does he really think the people he accuses of "identity politics" aren't hurting?

And how is it that he doesn't recognize white nationalism as identity politics?

uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
9. "...how is it that he doesn't recognize white nationalism as identity politics?" True point...
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:16 AM
Nov 2016

... in this case Sanders should've been on the Obama band wagon from the get and stuck to it like glue because Obama was the person he was taking about; a person from the disaffected that had a populist economic message that was progressive enough.

I just don't read "ditch identity politics" meme being pushed in the message he was giving other than the woman part which was the wrong thing in the wrong forum.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
36. He shit on women more than once in that mess.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:49 PM
Nov 2016

His negative examples just HAD to feature women--and even a hypothetical "Latina."

I think it's close to time he thinks about exiting--stage left or right depends on POV, I think. I think he's so far to the left that he's come around to the right on some issues, and I'm not saying that in a nice way, either. He brings out the worst in the Bro crowd, and they've transferred their "loyalty" from him to Trump way too easily for my tastes.

I have always said that a rising tide lifts all boats--I've said it here for YEARS. Bernie seems to want to put a certain group of people in his boat, and leave the rest of us clinging to the wreckage of the ship, waiting for someone to come back for us, eventually.

He likes to play the "I told ya so" card (which a lot of his scolding brought on)? He will very probably feel that shoe on the other foot in 2018, and it might not be an easy ride for him. This is, after all, the guy who wanted OBAMA primaried--so he surely can't complain when he gets the same treatment.



MADem

(135,425 posts)
21. I am in the LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OUTTA THE WAY school of thought
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:03 AM
Nov 2016

Making a negative example of "that woman" or "that LATINA" is not leadership--it's a doggone dog whistle. It jumped right out at me, and I'm certainly closer to a three than a ten on the hypersensitivity to bigotry scale.

Now, I'll give it to him that he truly might not realize what he's doing; but this is just more of the same of that "Man and Woman" schtick from his bad old days. He has a mindset about women that he just can't shake -- even if he intellectually rejects it, it is visceral with him and it just pops up at the most inconvenient junctures.

It's like that old guy/lady we know from down the street who "is polite to EVERYONE" and "doesn't have a mean bone in his/her body" who PERSISTS in using the term "colored" to describe black people. or "oriental" to refer to Asians. "Oh, he/she doesn't MEAN anything by it." Yeah, maybe, but it is still anachronistic and unkind to talk that way. How hard is it to watch your damn mouth?

He's been in politics too long, IMO, for this to be anything other than an expression of his own POV. He's not a newbie, he's been doing this for years. And singling out women (to include Hispanic women) to toss under the bus, not once, but twice, is a signal to me that he's still appealing to that "white working man" to the EXCLUSION of people of color and minority ethnicity/women.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
40. He knows full well what he is doing. Women and POC don't count in his world.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 01:08 PM
Nov 2016

It is all about economic class, like the good little Marxist he is. If women and POC don't put the white dudes first, fuck the women and the POC.

It is all about the white men with him. This is standard New Left bullshit of the 1960s.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
11. How could he. His political career is deep in identity politics.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:24 AM
Nov 2016

Just look at the comment about women you briefly touch on. There is a long line of such comments directly from him. Some days he seems to use identity politics in the same manner as Trump. Other days he rightfully uses it to highlight oppression. Depends on who he thinks he is addressing.

 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
34. Forked Tongue Syndrome
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:34 PM
Nov 2016

I am not Democrat, I've never been a liberal Democrat, I am of course a Democrat.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
67. Oh FFS
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:31 PM
Nov 2016

He is one of the most liberal and progressive senators, but keep shitting him. Sounds like a solid plan for increasing Dem numbers at the midterm.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
69. I will. Thank you.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 08:28 PM
Nov 2016

If he makes the comments I can comment on them. There is a history of them. I don't get the infallible politician argument.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
70. Never claimed he was infallible
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 08:30 PM
Nov 2016

Our efforts are probably better spent attacking the right and not eating our own. YMMV

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
71. He is not my own when...
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 08:52 PM
Nov 2016

Professing his thoughts that are deeply sexist. My criticism was mild and you want to say back down. I don't get the infallible politician argument. How many people criticizing other Democrats for their sexist remarks are you telling to back down? Hence the correct infallibility assumption.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
98. He's to be primaried at that midterm, if his putative challenger steps up.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:31 PM
Nov 2016

That will make for an interesting race.

lapucelle

(18,017 posts)
129. Howard Dean!
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 08:07 PM
Nov 2016

Sanders wouldn't be able to use the DSCC apparatus, resources, and money if he gets primaried by a real Democrat.

lapucelle

(18,017 posts)
128. Anyone who weaponized a presidential election vote by staying home or going third party
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 08:02 PM
Nov 2016

and who now plans to employ the tactic of making threats about midterm votes needs to understand two things: they are held in utter contempt by millions, and they were brilliantly played and pwned by Trump.

Those voters could have been heroes, but they chose to be spoilers. As for Sanders, with a Democratic president and/or a Democratic senate he would have been a force to be reckoned with. Now he's just another self-interested politician who helped put Trump in the White House.

You reap what you sow.

lapucelle

(18,017 posts)
127. Anyone named "Bernie"
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 07:33 PM
Nov 2016

whose supporters call themselves berniecrats or bernie-or-busters needs to pipe down about identity politic.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
12. The main issue is that a lot of left wingers have concluded
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:57 AM
Nov 2016

That HRC and Obama are like Mitt and Jeb because they're not nationalizing the means of production or heightening the contradictions like they want, or think that Democrats can just steamroll the opposition with the populist bully pulpit the way Republicans can and just don't because they're in thrall to big capital. In reality, because of too many white people choosing the Repubs either out of ignorance, perceived Dem indifference/lack of outreach, or choosing cultural issues/pocketbook issues, neither of them would have the mandate or the grassroots power to tell the plutocrats to shove it up their ass the way FDR or even Truman could.

Part of this is that they're working off aged out political analysis from a time when there WASNT a dime's worth of difference between the parties (aka when the Repubs represented Big Labor Exploitation versus the Dems representing Big Slavery, or from when there was a DLC trying to move the Dems to the right) but in 2016 the Dems are closer to a true labor party than they've ever been post FDR). Part of is that some of them secretly or not so secretly see diversity as part of the Establishment, the way a Trump voter would (I *don't* think Bernie thinks this way but I do think he feels that if marginalized groups don't shout the same slogans as white leftists they're selling out to the system and using their identity to cover it up, which is another left-wing critique (one that ignores how capital has almost exclusively been run by white cis straight(-passing) males).

Finally part of it is that the media undermines and tries to distract from bold progressive visions and seek to dampen any left-leaning ideas - people talk about Bernie got "no media coverage" but look at how the only thing they wanted to talk about with Hillary was EMAIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS and not her very very comprehensive and populist economic plan.

uponit7771

(90,193 posts)
13. Yeap, Obama and Clinton weren't progressive "enough" and to some that was a call for outright ...
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 09:59 AM
Nov 2016

... rejection which seemed foolish on its face.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
15. Unfortunately, not being white males and advocating for non-white, non-male interests
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 10:05 AM
Nov 2016

is a political anchor, because too many whites prioritize their ethnocultural cultural identity over the economic interests they share with black and brown workers. So even after the Bush 2008 collapse, which SHOULD have kept Republicans out of power for 40 years, the Repubs are literally at post Civil War levels of power (for the exact opposite reason), and even directly after they were barely able to get legislation through.

Until we can somehow break down these prejudices, or reach out to enough non-voters (I think that's where a Bernie-style economic populist campaign, COMBINED with strong outreach to diverse populations, COMBINED with, because black and brown workers want economic progressivism to give them a reason to fight through voter suppression, is needed) to overwhelm the angry racists at the polls, this is going to be a consistent problem.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
18. It is all about economics with Bernie...
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 10:30 AM
Nov 2016

Without social justice, only white males benefit from his economic plans in my opinion. This is why I did not support him in the primary, although I always vote for Democrats so I would have voted for him had he been our candidate...well the election is over and some may not agree with me, but I believe the divisive primary cost us the election. Bernie's comments in this video are divisive and will cause further election losses...we have the worst republican about to occupy the White House in my lifetime...why would he not stand with Democrats to defeat Trump instead of making these sort of comments? Hillary Clinton and women in general, deserve more respect from Bernie than he has shown...my opinion. Also, if you want to tell Democrats how to run the party...then join. Schumer will regret putting Bernie in leadership because he will criticize Democrats: not republicans.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
24. I want to see how HE managed his personal economic situation before he
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:16 AM
Nov 2016

trys to boss me around in any fashion about what I should think/do.

He and Jane said they'd release their taxes. They still haven't.

I think there's a possibility that he's all (or much) talk and maybe not so good on the walk and that's why he kept stalling--that was just egregious, but I guess the "new normal" on that score--thanks to two white men who ran for POTUS--is "We don't have to be transparent."


I don't go for "Do as I say" politicians. We KNOW Trump is one. Sanders needs to release those documents simply to satisfy his own constituents, assure them that he's not a bullshitter.

As for Sanders' "leadership" position, it sounds more like a vanity title than anything else. "Outreach" is not an established leadership hat--it''s a made-up one to keep him occupied and satisfy those people in his base who want to co-opt a party they can't bother to join. Schumer doesn't take shit, either--he can be pretty acerbic when he wants to be.

It is very possible that Sanders will be primaried in 2018. He had better be prepared to be more forthcoming than he has been to this point if he wants to hold on to his seat, because if this happens, he will be challenged on all these issues and more. Or maybe, just maybe, he'll retire and let some new blood come to the fore in VT.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
25. You have to wonder what is in those taxes.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:21 AM
Nov 2016

Doesn't he have to release them now since he is in leadership?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
26. It's not a real leadership position, IMO.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:24 AM
Nov 2016

It's like "Secretary of Explaining Stuff."

I don't think it comes with more staff (which is the key to leadership positions that are real). He might get to "borrow" a person or two from the minority leader for a specific task.

metroins

(2,550 posts)
29. He's been in Congress 20 years
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:58 AM
Nov 2016

And nothing substantial done.

He voted with Democrats and shares a lot of ideals, but Bernie is not a leader...at least not a good one.

The primaries are over, so I'll stop bashing.

We lost the general because Hillary failed to address the false republican accusations on her emails quickly or thoroughly enough.

Their smear campaign worked.

A campaign tweak here or there could've helped, like being a little more pro gun or more pro coal/energy/farms...but in the end the smear campaign is what did it.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
30. Every time she "addressed," the MEDIA piled on--they're admitting this in
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:05 PM
Nov 2016

THEIR postmortems. They admit they gave Trump too much unquestioning column inches and airtime, and shit on Clinton for sport.

And Comey drove the final nail. His name will go down in history right after Benedict Arnold's--assuming the good guys survive this soft coup and take back and restore our "decent" America.



metroins

(2,550 posts)
31. Not the media's fault
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:09 PM
Nov 2016

They are businesses that make money on advertising. Trump brought in money. If they want to tarnish their reputations, like they have, that's their prerogative. I stopped watching them on November 9.

I still think Hillary could've put it all to bed earlier.

I think Comey is most certainly to blame and I post-mortemly partially blame Obama for appointing him and I blame myself for thinking we could trust some republicans like him to not be partisan.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
33. Are you KIDDING? "Not the media's fault?"
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:34 PM
Nov 2016

Please.

They have an obligation to journalistic integrity, and they failed--grossly--in that obligation.

They admit it--not sure why you can't.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/12/hillary-clinton-we-failed-her-sarah-churchwell

metroins

(2,550 posts)
35. Because they're not required to
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:43 PM
Nov 2016

In the end, it's up to the voters and the candidates.

The news networks are businesses.

They hurt their reputations by putting Trump surrogates on and going for ad revenue. If we were talking about non profit news, that's different, but they made a business decision.

Trump brought ad revenue to the stations, Hillary negative news didn't. Trump clearly outplayed Hillary on modern news platforms and what they want. Should it be that way? No. But that's how it is and I can't blame the media for doing what businesses do...bring in revenue.

Ethics vs. Capitalism, capitalism wins


I think Hillary ran a decent campaign, not great, but decent. I think she'd be a much better leader than a campaigner and I also had more faith in humanity. I personally believe failure always stems from the top and I start looking internally when something fails instead of externally.

Hillary lost because of Hillary.


MADem

(135,425 posts)
41. For decades you have been "carefully taught" by that media to hate her.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 01:22 PM
Nov 2016

Just as most people don't know that Hedy LaMarr had a brilliant mind and we should thank her every time we use a cellphone or log on to the internet--because the media never told us--most people don't know what a civil rights activist and children's rights advocate HRC has been for her entire life.

Her story got pushed down; Donald as his father's heir got photos that were quarter page sized in NYT and WAPO, among others, and his life story was puffed and plumped and rounded out with outright lies all designed to make him look good.

The media DID this. They own it. "Hair Furor" is a creature of their own coddling and curating of his story. Oddly enough, they helped elect the very asshole who could drive them from the public square. Sieg Heil Trump.

metroins

(2,550 posts)
44. I don't hate her, I like Hillary
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 01:50 PM
Nov 2016

She was the best candidate of any this year.

My vote was for Hillary, I jumped on her bandwagon at the first debate. I think Bernie is a joke, I like EW though.

If Hillary didn't control the media like Donald did, that's her fault. Media wants ratings and she didn't give them it, except in negative press.

I think America is insane for voting for Donald, but she lost PA, Florida and Ohio. Leadership takes the blame when there's failure. She knew the media was going to harp on emails. Nobody knew Comey was going to come out like that, but she left an opening by letting the emails go so long and not responding in a way America relates to.

Hillary lost because of Hillary.

Blaming external sources for your failure is bad practice.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
50. "Blaming external sources for your failure is bad practice."
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 04:00 PM
Nov 2016

That's only accurate when there isn't any theft going on....

MADem

(135,425 posts)
57. I think Vladimir reached his high water mark.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 04:33 PM
Nov 2016

Assuming, of course, he doesn't take over the franchise entirely in the next 4 years.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
61. Well that makes me feel somewhat better.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:14 PM
Nov 2016

My fear is the voters he managed to acquire in the primaries will not come back to the Democratic Party.

OriginalGeek

(12,132 posts)
91. I'd like to
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 12:15 PM
Nov 2016

and I voted for Hillary along with my wife, my aunt and my 95 year old grandpa.

But it's hard when it keeps feeling like I'm being blamed for the loss and accused of sexism, racism and misogyny for having been a Bernie supporter.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
99. Chuck Schumer didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:35 PM
Nov 2016

He didn't get the Senate leadership job because he is sweet, or accommodating, or worries about the feelings of this group or that. He got it because he is a tough and unyielding negotiator, and a street fighter when it gets real rough and tumble.

He's also smart--he understands full well that you keep troublemakers close. It makes it harder for them to plot against you, and if they do, they look churlish and ungrateful.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
16. Bernie apparently doesn't think race and gender are the most defining factors
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 10:06 AM
Nov 2016

In any given situation. He fought for civil rights, yet seems to be completely blind to how inherently racist and sexist governments formed the very economic system flaws he is fighting against.

So he says this shit. It pisses me off--because by now he should know better--his words were easily manipulated by Trump--to the point a few of his more, I don't know, unstable is the best word I can think of right now, followers thought it was a fabulous idea to vote for Trump.

He fanned the sparks of Hillary hate quite deftly, he sought to end the Democratic Party as we know it--even has an alternative--when he knows the process of change wouldn't have happened in any reasonable time frame without Democrats, and within the system he hates. Though his revolution never showed up at the polls, Many of his people think that Hillary stole the primary. They think Bernie would have easily beat Trump. They think Bernie would have pushed his ideas through a Republican congress.

Then crap like this. Why, Bernie, Why?

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
20. I also think there are a lot of kind of well meaning leftists
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 10:51 AM
Nov 2016

who think that pushing "identity politics" made it "acceptable" for racists whites to, in their minds, play "tit for tat". Basically the reverse racism argument again. While I actually think *some* rhetoric used by marginalized people (especially on blogs/campuses) is tactically nonexpedient, that doesn't make white people victims of racism.

Demsrule86

(68,217 posts)
23. And that is completely ridculous for them to think that.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:13 AM
Nov 2016

Consider that Reagan started the white identity politics with 'welfare queen' comments...although Nixon and his Southern strategy really began it all... we have had rightwing talk radio blowing that dog whistle for years...how about the anti-Obama song Rush played...'the Magic Negro' ...sick song too...what should we do ignore more than 50% of the electorate to concentrate on those we have lost for good due in large part to racism as well as trade. The GOP signs trade agreements and such people voted for them before Trump so trade/jobs is only part of the issues for many. As for the sort of leftists you refer to...they cost us another election ...that is three since 2000. They have no problem electing the GOP which makes me think they are spoilers and not leftists. And Tulsi Gabbard is apparently going to work for Trump.

Maru Kitteh

(28,302 posts)
45. An appalling number of those "leftists" were racists and misogynists
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 03:42 PM
Nov 2016

themselves. When you are all too willing to sell minorities, women and a generation of Americans down the river rather than vote for a woman running on the most progressive platform ever presented by the Democratic party, there is an explanation, and unfortunately it is the easy and obvious one.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
38. That is because he is a 1960s New Left Marxist.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:57 PM
Nov 2016

He calls himself a "socialist," but his myopic view of politics undercuts this. He sees everything in terms of economic class. He is a Marxist, which immediately disqualifies him from ever being a serious candidate for the presidency.

Women and POC can go to hell as far as he is concerned.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
100. It disqualifies her from "being a serious candidate for the Presidency."
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:37 PM
Nov 2016

I think that was the poster's point.

kcr

(15,295 posts)
32. How do you not see that that comment is based on the premise
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:23 PM
Nov 2016

That people want to put up candidates and vote on them based solely on race? Like there's some kind of quota. He is playing on the fears of those who think Affirmative Action means unqualified people will coast in. That bolded part shows it. Oh, no! If Dems don't go beyond "identity politics" Then who knows! Maybe those brown people might do dumb stuff like ship your jobs away! That whole speech was filled with dog whistles. He seems to think that he's the white guy who's brave enough to tell it like it is, and that's why "The Working Class tm" * will listen to him, and it's such a shame Dems didn't pick him and that's why they listen to the only other white guy brave enough to tell it like it is. If only the Dems would learn this lesson!

*That would be another one of of those dog whistles. Because minorities work, too. They're part of the working class. This plays on the notion that minorities are lazy.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
37. He is a 1960s New Left Marxist. It has never left him.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 12:51 PM
Nov 2016

His entire world view is that everything revolves around economic class. He willfully ignores there are other political classes, including race and sex. That is because he identifies far more with white dudes than he does with POC and women. He is one of those white dudes.

There is a reason the second wave of the women's movement started. It has to do with men like Bernie Sanders in the New Left who treated women like shit.

The "left" still has a lot of that hatred for women.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
47. I'm closer to the Marxist Left but I am well aware we have intersectionality issues to work out
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 03:46 PM
Nov 2016

What they don't realize is the extent to which capital was built on the exploitation of women as well as black and brown bodies. Without taking into account that exploitation, their class analysis is woefully incomplete. This is why even the elevation of an economic center-leftist such as Hillary (or Obama for that matter) has revolutionary potential, because it pulls out more of that revolutionary potential in those same groups, seeing one of their (or our) own overcome structural racism.

Also sad to say (from personal experience with many male progressives) - a huge attraction for men on the Left, especially young men on the left, is the idea that religion and conservative values are restricting male sexual access to women, so by supporting progressive politics that seek to undermine patriarchal controls on female sexuality, they would garner access to willing girls and women "freed" from the shackles of their conservative parents. That is the key aspect of Bernie's early writings - ostensibly sex-positive and trangressive of restrictive mores, but written with a prurient eye toward the sexual possibilities of liberated women. And of course, while those norms are undoubtedly oppressive, destroying them not for the sake of female liberation, but for cynical pursuit of lust, is definitely wrong.

A lot of the veiled hatred for women on the male Left stems from the fact that their female "comrades" were too independent and didn't just put out on demand. Marx himself stated that the movement would take on characteristics of the oppressive wider society, and the New Left had that problem in spades.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
68. It is all about easy sexual access with the left dudes. You nailed it.
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 07:47 PM
Nov 2016

All they give a shit about is sexual liberation despite the cost to women. That is why they are so big on porn and prostitution, and never mind those are human rights abuses. These guys don't give a shit about women unless they "put out."

Women on the right really aren't that dumb about how shitty left-wing men can be. They figure it is better to be screwed over by one man than by ten or twenty. Not to be screwed over by some dude isn't an option in their eyes.

Sexual/human rights issues are the achilles heel of the male left.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
75. The issue is women's autonomy, women are their own persons who make their own decisions
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 11:42 PM
Nov 2016

not inert vessels for male desires and anxieties to be projected onto. The fact is, our understanding of "sexual repression versus sexual liberation" has largely been from an exclusively male-oriented perspective.

Also a deep irony to this is that in a more equal society, everyone would likely be having a lot more sex and a lot better sex, because sexual wants and needs are hidden behind layers of socially constructed bullshit and double standards.

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
54. He did say it -- I saw the video in this thread. That said:
Tue Nov 22, 2016, 04:13 PM
Nov 2016

WE can't and shouldn't get beyond identity politics as long as women, Latinos, AA. and other marginalized people are considered a lesser Identity in this country.

This is a problem not just in politics -- it's about equality.

I like Bernie but he is missing the point here. We NEED more Women, We NEED more Latinos/Latinas, We NEED more AA people -- we Need more of anything that isn't a white man.

Saying identity politics isn't important is a way to dismiss people who choose to make history because they have been suppressed historically in society.

We are not there yet. Identity politics -- it still means something to a lot of people. Keith Ellson is a perfect example of identity politicians. He never strayed from the fact that he was a Muslim.

I deeply disagree with Bernie about this and have for a long time.





MADem

(135,425 posts)
101. No. Let's be honest about what he is, and what he is not.
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:46 PM
Nov 2016

His "Rage, rage, against the dying of the white" run for office did his legacy no favors, IMO. It revealed a problematic element of his persona with regard to women/nonwhites that was heretofore not widely known.

Thing is, when he announced his candidacy, even BEFORE, he was talking about "cutting out" the disaffected "white working man" from the rightwing fold and appealing to them--DU discussed this, on this very board. He initially thought he could grab that segment of the population and get them to join in with the rest of us--unfortunately, that group has a lot of racists and sexists in it, and they wanted their "share" at the EXPENSE of women and nonwhites, not along with them.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
103. "racists and sexists:" From what I hear on DU, there are plenty right here, whatever the class.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 01:06 PM
Nov 2016


I think the bigger question he alludes to is this:

"If the person sitting across from you is unquestionably a racist and a sexist, can you nevertheless work with him or her to achieve a common good?"

MADem

(135,425 posts)
104. What "common good" can be achieved from normalizing a racist/sexist by working with them?
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 02:49 PM
Nov 2016

Chamberlain and Quisling "worked with" a monster to achieve what they believed was a common good.

That did not work out too well.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
105. So I take it your answer is "no."
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 03:40 PM
Nov 2016

Since even millions of liberal/progressives have been tagged with the racist/privileged label, there may not be many to talk with/to.

Incidentally, achieving a common good doesn't "normalize" anything but the common good. I'd hate to think obtaining health care for all was dependent on agreeing with everything the "opposition" believes in. Tolerance ain't supposed to be easy.

BTW, how would I stack up, sitting across from that table from you?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
107. This is not a "Peace in our time" moment.
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:08 PM
Nov 2016

Anyone who wants to lie down with that dog will find themselves with a case of fleas that will bite them to death.


By their actions we'll know them--if they enable a racist, they condone racism. If they enable a sexist, they condone sexism. If they enable a xenophobe, they participate in a culture of xenophobia.


This really is not a complex concept. We're not talking about differences in economic policy, here--we're talking issues that go to the heart of humankind.

Anyone who can't quite grasp this is probably better off in the Trump camp--they can throw in their sorry lot, and see how much they'll get out of that pig. It won't even be a slice of bacon, but they'll have to learn the hard way.

No quarter.

We'll see those regretful asses who would rather put their privileged status ahead of their fellow humans who are melanin-enhanced and culturally/orientation diverse on the flip side. And they will come back and cry about the error of their ways, once they realize they've thrown in with an incompetent con man who is a puppet of Putin.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
109. Ah, the "Trump camp."
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:13 PM
Nov 2016

Actually, I was speaking more generally, about tolerating others with whom we disagree so as to solve common problems. Old notion, I suppose.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
115. You seriously think Trump is going to give you health care for all???
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:34 PM
Nov 2016



Your thesis is absurd on its face. Don't expect a poisonous snake to quote Shakespeare. Do expect it to bite and kill you if it gets the chance.

We can hang together or separately, to paraphrase Ben F. Trump isn't going to give the racist, sexist, xenophobic faux progressives any 'cred' for folding for him--he's going to mock them and call them weak losers....and he'll be right.

IMO, anyone who "tolerates" racism, sexism and xenophobia is enabling the behavior, and merits no quarter. There are no compromises with hatred.
 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
116. No he won't; that is your fanciful take.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:09 PM
Nov 2016


I will repeat my question, even if Trump didn't exist or never holds office: Can you work with a racist and sexist to achieve a common good? This question applies to all people in all stations of life. I don't pretend there is an easy answer. Those only exist in Fantasy Land and in DU.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
117. Not one with the power of the executive.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:41 PM
Nov 2016

A legislator has a vote on a single issue that does not impact all aspects of a nation's governance; an individual with the power of the executive can do much by decree and must be resisted without quarter.

There can be no "working with" Trump. He needs to be challenged at every turn, and impeached/thrown out of office as quickly as possible. His VP needs to be caged and limited to finishing that cretin's term as a caretaker who does nothing to harm our nation's interests.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
119. If his voting base margins come from Moscow, let's just reveal that.
Mon Nov 28, 2016, 05:03 PM
Nov 2016

I've no interest in working with his voting base. I'd rather grow ours by lifting the barriers that the GOP has put in place to suppress/cage voters.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
123. Margins--not the whole magilla.
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 05:40 PM
Nov 2016

A few thousand faked votes here, a few thousand there, and whaddaya know?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
125. What we need to do is work hard to overcome the only game (besides
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 07:12 PM
Nov 2016

Pootie - cheating) the GOP has--and that's voter disenfranchisement.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
131. It was something of a political moonshot.
Thu Dec 1, 2016, 12:16 PM
Dec 2016

If it DID work, movement conservatism is dead in America. Period. Peel off 15-20% of working class whites in places like Texas, AZ, Georgia, states that are tilting our way demographically to begin with? It's over. Bernie was the wrong guy for it though; you need someone who can not only articulate that populist message of the system being rigged, but couple it with the ability to sell intersectionality to at that 15-20% of rural whites who are either voting GOP or not voting at all.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
82. Sanders is correct
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 01:24 AM
Nov 2016

Nothing inherently wrong with identity politics, but we sometimes try to get more from them than they can deliver.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
112. We need them
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 05:57 PM
Nov 2016

For me and others like me. Not so much for you because you are not in my identity group.

ecstatic

(32,532 posts)
92. He's been saying the same thing in various ways for years
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 12:30 PM
Nov 2016

That's why he lost the AA vote in the primaries.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
102. They got their asses kicked by freaking Donald Trump ... and WE are still the ones who are wrong? nt
Wed Nov 23, 2016, 02:38 PM
Nov 2016
 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
111. Well, this presages a looming battle within the Party...
Fri Nov 25, 2016, 04:23 PM
Nov 2016

Do we keep doing the same thing as we have for 40+ years, or do we move to the left and provide clarity and meaning to our raison d'etre? The latter advocates will be fought tooth and nail by the former where, curiously, some will fight hard to preserve their accrued political privileges and outlook.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
120. Am I missing something?
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 04:12 PM
Nov 2016

Did anyone here rush out to vote for Michelle Bachmann or Ted Cruz or Ben Carson recently? What's the difference exactly?

lapucelle

(18,017 posts)
126. Here's a fuller excerpt from Sanders's speech, with some context.
Wed Nov 30, 2016, 07:26 PM
Nov 2016
Here is my point -- and this is where there is going to be a division within the Democratic Party. It is not good enough for somebody to say, 'I'm a woman, vote for me.' No, that’s not good enough. What we need is a woman who has the guts to stand up to Wall Street, to the insurance companies, to the drug companies, to the fossil fuel industry.

In other words, one of the struggles that you’re going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics. I think it’s a step forward in America if you have an African-American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn’t mean a whole hell of a lot whether he’s black or white or Latino.


http://www.wbur.org/politicker/2016/11/21/bernie-sanders-berklee
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