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Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:13 PM

I thought winning the election would feel better than this.

Nothing has even happened yet, and so many alleged liberals are just weighing me down with the negativity. I like Ed Schultz but right now I feel like I can't ever listen to him again. I scratched my head after the first debate. I mean what the hell was he thinking he was doing, putting the negative spin on that for the Republicans?

And now he's squealing like a stuck pig.

Something does have to be done about Medicare. We can't even talk about that?

And in terms of going over the fiscal cliff, this isn't going to be a fun ride. It's certainly worth trying to work something out.

90 replies, 6931 views

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Reply I thought winning the election would feel better than this. (Original post)
Cary Nov 2012 OP
dchill Nov 2012 #1
Cary Nov 2012 #5
daleanime Nov 2012 #7
vi5 Nov 2012 #2
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #16
DCBob Nov 2012 #27
vi5 Nov 2012 #29
democrattotheend Nov 2012 #65
vi5 Nov 2012 #66
Turbineguy Nov 2012 #31
vi5 Nov 2012 #55
SoFlaJet Nov 2012 #69
LukeFL Nov 2012 #64
denny1952 Nov 2012 #3
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #11
Cary Nov 2012 #22
vi5 Nov 2012 #30
Cary Nov 2012 #32
vi5 Nov 2012 #54
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #60
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #62
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #75
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #76
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #77
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #79
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #81
Cary Nov 2012 #84
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #85
Cary Nov 2012 #86
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #87
Cary Nov 2012 #88
Cha Nov 2012 #4
Cary Nov 2012 #6
Cha Nov 2012 #10
Cary Nov 2012 #28
Cha Nov 2012 #41
vi5 Nov 2012 #20
Cary Nov 2012 #33
vi5 Nov 2012 #56
Politicub Nov 2012 #48
Cha Nov 2012 #53
Raven Nov 2012 #8
Beacool Nov 2012 #9
Sky Masterson Nov 2012 #12
AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #17
Sky Masterson Nov 2012 #35
vi5 Nov 2012 #19
Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2012 #13
Politicub Nov 2012 #50
Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2012 #58
Hoyt Nov 2012 #14
Cary Nov 2012 #34
Hoyt Nov 2012 #38
Cary Nov 2012 #40
AndyTiedye Nov 2012 #15
vi5 Nov 2012 #23
MotherPetrie Nov 2012 #18
Bluenorthwest Nov 2012 #21
Cary Nov 2012 #24
woo me with science Nov 2012 #71
SoFlaJet Nov 2012 #25
LiberalFighter Nov 2012 #26
Tarheel_Dem Nov 2012 #36
Cary Nov 2012 #43
forestpath Nov 2012 #37
Cary Nov 2012 #42
forestpath Nov 2012 #44
Cary Nov 2012 #45
forestpath Nov 2012 #47
jonthebru Nov 2012 #39
Politicub Nov 2012 #46
davidn3600 Nov 2012 #49
JoePhilly Nov 2012 #70
zipplewrath Nov 2012 #80
JoePhilly Nov 2012 #83
patrice Nov 2012 #51
lib2DaBone Nov 2012 #52
union_maid Nov 2012 #57
ellie Nov 2012 #59
TeamPooka Nov 2012 #61
NYC Liberal Nov 2012 #63
union_maid Nov 2012 #67
vi5 Nov 2012 #68
JoePhilly Nov 2012 #72
vi5 Nov 2012 #73
treestar Nov 2012 #90
Cary Nov 2012 #74
treestar Nov 2012 #89
Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2012 #78
Cary Nov 2012 #82

Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:27 PM

1. I'm curious - what exactly needs to be done...

about Medicare? Lower the retirement age? Expand the program to include everyone? I'd be all over that! Not to mention that those options would actually lower costs and the deficit.

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Response to dchill (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:39 PM

5. I favor Medicare for all.

But I watched Dick Durbin, whom I admire greatly, talk about it this morning on Joe Scar. There are things that can be done to cut expenses.

That's the bigger picture. We pay twice as much per person for medical care than the next highest nation, which is Canada. We have to get the expense down. But in the interim we do have to extend the viability of Medicare one way or another.

Not a voucher though.

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Response to dchill (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:42 PM

7. +1,000

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:29 PM

2. The "fiscal cliff" itself is a load of BS.

That fact that so many Democrats are buying into it rather than calling it out for what it is, does not fill me with happiness and positivity as to which direction they want to go in.

Plain and simple: No grand bargain, and let all the tax cuts expire. Then January 3rd or whenever they come back, propose lower and middle class tax cuts. Frame them as The Obama Tax Cuts. Dare Republicans to vote against them. Nothing will happen for those days or weeks that will send the country into any degree of turmoil.

It's such a complete fucking political no brainer, that the fact that the Democrats aren't pointing this out at every term and the fact that they are still insisting that any Grand Bargain is needed, leads me to believe that many of them are just as eager to get these programs for the poor and elderly cut and keep the trough filled for the wealthy and the corporate to stuff their gaping maws at.

I'll wait and see. But if and when I'm not proven wrong, and if and when some "grand bargain" is cut that negatively impacts Social Security and Medicaire, and which extends the tax breaks for the wealthy, I fully expect all the delicate flowers on "our side" insisting we must do something to be trotting out every excuse in the book as to why the poor beleaguered democrats had no choice. And then, as now it will be pure and utter bullshit.

Elections have consequences, as the former idiot in chief said. They do. The people voted for the guy and the party who said they wanted to protect the programs that help the poor and middle class, and said they wanted to increase taxes on the wealthy. They can either listen or not. If they choose not to, they should be called out on it loudly.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:22 PM

16. Well said. Thanks for saying it so clearly and forcefully.

 

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Response to vi5 (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:54 PM

27. If sequestration happens there will be major cuts to all government programs.

That will have a significant negative effect on the economy and jobs. In fact just the possibilty of it happening has already impacted jobs. My wife was on track to be hired by a contractor to NOAA/NWS but last week she was told there will be no new hires until this sequestration thing is settled. Feels like a "cliff" to her and to me.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:58 PM

29. So if it's settled on January 5th, or January 10th it's a cliff?

But on Decmeber 29th it's not a cliff?

I agree it will have an impact but nothing magical happens on December 31st that will have an immediate impact.

Of course, assuming it's a private contractor they could be using that as an excuse just like lots of other companies are doing.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:53 PM

65. To me too

I am in my third year of law school and a lot of us are anxiously waiting to find out whether sequester will happen because we have applied to clerkships and government honors programs that may be cut or put on hold if sequestration happens.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #65)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:13 AM

66. Again, I ask....

So is that 1, 2, or 3 week period between 12/31/12 and say the middle of January when you were going to find out? If Sequestration happens it will be short and brief. The assumption that this sequestration will be some month or years long thing is I think pretty wrong. Even the obstructionist idiots across the aisle know that if they allow this to happen that they will be held responsible. At this point they are dead enders holding out for the last possible chance that their tax cuts for the wealthy still happen, and that they may be able to cut public welfare safety net programs.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:06 PM

31. Good, that's true

but Obama, being cast in the role of "adult", still has to govern and that means taking an active role in looking for common ground.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:42 PM

55. There is no common ground.

There is no common ground to be had with the evil, idiotic republicans. And the American public knows it.

The "adult" thing to do would be to let the cuts expire and push for new ones that are in the best interest of the American public.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #55)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 08:10 AM

69. I agree

and I would prefer NOT making any bargains with these lame duck asshole republicans...why deal with them now? They had no interest in making any compromises at all for the past 2 years that they were in power there in the house of reps...let it go until AFTER the new congress is sworn in and then make everything retroactive from the 1st of January

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Response to vi5 (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:51 PM

64. I agree with you. Why didnt Dr. Dean

Say that in his recent released video I asked. I was expecting honesty from him but he didn't say the cliff is BS. I would have loved for him to do that.

And what about holding our media accountable too. Where's Rachel, ED, and the rest on this?

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:34 PM

3. So am I

I agree with you Cary. I have stopped watching Ed Schulz. He seems too negative. I feel that we have to understand that sometimes in order to achieve greater things we have to learn to compromise some. I really don't feel that the programs for the poor and elderly will be cut.

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Response to denny1952 (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:57 PM

11. Compromise or capitulate?

There is a difference between compromising and capitulating.

Compromise is you say A and I C so we agree on B. Capitulating is I say A and you say 7 so we agree on 6.

Compromise is that I run on closing Gitmo, and you oppose it, so we close it and move it to Illinois. Capitulating is we don't close Gitmo.

Compromise is saying we need 900 billion in direct spending and you say 500 billion so we do 700 billion. Capitulating is saying we need 1.4 trillion, you say we need 500 billion in tax cuts, so we do 500 billion in tax cuts, and we do 400 billion of direct spending.

Compromise is saying we need a public option and you say we don't so we have a limited public option with narrow applicability and moderate budgets. Capitulation is I say we have a public option and you say no, so we don't.

When you average perfect with mediocre you get good. When you average good with bad, you get bad mascarading as good.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:46 PM

22. Tiresome

You hurt my brain.

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Response to Cary (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:00 PM

30. Can you explain how what they said was wrong?

Rather than just pithy retorts?

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Response to vi5 (Reply #30)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:08 PM

32. If you're going to tell me that you don't understand then...

I'm telling you that I don't believe you.

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Response to Cary (Reply #32)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:41 PM

54. No, I understood what they said.

And it was a good encapsulation of the differences between compromising, and allowing capitulation and shifting the terms of debate too far to the other side.

I'm not the one who said my brain hurt and couldn't come up with a better retort and counterpoint than "tiresome".

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Response to Cary (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:04 PM

60. Exercise it more

Once it is in better shape, using it won't hurt so much.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #11)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:31 PM

62. Where was Obama supposed to get the money to fund that project re: Gitmo?

You realize it costs money to "close it and move it to Illinois", right? In our system of government, only Congress, by passing legislation, has the power to do that.

And no way in hell would that Congress have passed a public option, like it or not. From the Republicans to the conservative "Blue Dog" Democrats to the Lieberman "independents", it wasn't going to happen. It took a long, hard fight just to get the (significant) progress that was made with the ACA. You're telling me the Republicans and conservative Democrats who opposed the ACA would have voted for a public option? Please.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #62)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:08 PM

75. I'm telling you it was capitulation not compromise

You are basically agreeing since you are suggesting he agreed to things that were contrary to what he was seeking to accomplish, not merely modifications of positions he had already taken. You are basically saying he was forced to capitulate. He had other options, but he chose to capitulate instead.

Generals have a term called "retrograde motion". The soldiers call it "retreat". It's the same thing. There are strategic retreats, organized retreats, temporary retreats, and "reorganizing" retreats (otherwise called "regrouping). But soldiers know what they all are, they are retreats.

You can claim Obama made "necessary capitulations" or "strategic", "calculated", "pragmatic" or any other host of adverbs. But the "soldiers" know what he did. It may be justified, soldiers often are HAPPY about retreats, they'll often do them without orders. But they don't kid themselves about what they are doing. Calling capitulation, compromise, just trys to cover up reality and the only person you fool is yourself. The soldiers know. The GOP knows.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #75)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:41 PM

76. You were implying, or saying, that Obama "capitulated" because he simply

agreed with the Republicans, or that he gave in despite having other options. That is not true. The Guantanamo prison cannot be closed, a new prison can't be built, and prisoners can't be moved without an appropriation of money from Congress. That's a fact. There is no other option.

You ignore the fact that the vote in the Senate to deny funding in 2009 was 90 to 6.

You can call it whatever you want, but Obama cannot rule by fiat here.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #76)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:59 PM

77. Well he did have other options

I'm not sure I particularly discussed motivation in these posts. It is a fact that he had other options. Whether he "agreed" or was at least "sympathetic" with the GOP is for another thread. And really, you'd have to go on a case by case basis because I think say in the case of the mandate, he basically agreed, and in the case of Gitmo, he just gave up, although apparently he never had any intention of "closing" it, but merely "moving" it. With the bush tax cuts, I think Geithner probably saw it as stimulitive and was instrumental in the decision. Dunno if you call that agreeing or giving in.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #77)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:05 PM

79. No, he didn't. He's been trying to get Congress to appropriate the funds and lift the

ban on the transfer for 4 years now. He still is and reiterated it during the campaign. There ARE no other options available without Congressional approval.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #79)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:19 PM

81. False dichotomy

Don't engage in the logical falicy of the false dichotomy. He didn't have only two choices. He doesn't have only two choices. He is in this mess largely of his own making. Remember, they are only there on his authority alone to begin with. With the stroke of a pen he could have "pardoned" them all and the place would be empty. He could have pursued civil trials (and probably lost every single one). He could have pursued much faster military tribunals, but has chosen not to. And you will note, he said absolutely NOTHING about Gitmo during the campaign, even though he regularly mentioned it in his first campaign.

From a recent article in Mother Jones:

Experts from both sides of the aisle do agree that when Obama talks about closing Guantanamo, he's not talking about ending the practice of indefinitely detaining terrorist suspects without trial. Instead, he's talking about what to do with the prisoners already in US custody, whose future is uncertain.

"Obama has embraced indefinite detention since 2009 and has never backed away from it," says Karen Greenberg*, who is the director of the Center on National Security at Fordham Law, and is the author of The Least Worst Place: Guantanamo's First 100 Days. "He's never clearly made that break from George W. Bush."

Stimson thinks the president doesn't want to limit his options. "No president in his right mind is going to constrain his ability to detain somebody," he says.

That means even if Obama does manage to close Guantanamo, the sticky issue of indefinite detention will remain, and civil liberties activists won't be satisfied. "There's no such thing as closing Guantanamo if you move the prisoners to Illinois or somewhere else on earth, and keep indefinite detention," Greenberg says.



Much of this indicates that he has chosen to accept the current situation and not particularly try to achieve his originally stated goal of "closing" Gitmo. At best he wants to move it.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #81)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:25 PM

84. You always work so hard to be negative. n/t

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Response to Cary (Reply #84)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:15 PM

85. DU inspires me

It's my muse. Makes it easy, not hard.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #85)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:24 PM

86. Apparently.

And what of the other place? If DU is your muse, what's your mope fest?

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Response to Cary (Reply #86)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 08:44 AM

87. Election day

I rarely get to vote for people that I truly admire, respect, or desire. Usually I have to pick the lesser of two evils.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #87)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:04 AM

88. Understood

And I feel sorry for you.

You live n scarcity. But you know what? I don't live in scarcity. I choose not to live in scarcity and so I don't live there.

You ought to consider moving. There is lots of prom here in plenty and we probably get a lot more done than any of you.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:38 PM

4. This Election WIN is Fantastic, Cary! You're

listening to the wrong people who make their living in Whine and Fear! Be Very Afraid.

Here's a dose of reality..

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2012/11/right-on-queue-professional-left-sets.html#.ULT8RRDAhaI.twitter

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Response to Cha (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:40 PM

6. Leave it to Cha to pick me up!

You know you're one of my faves.

Thanks.

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Response to Cary (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:47 PM

10. Long time no see, Cary..

I had just read that piece from deaniac and it seemed a perfect antidote to your condition.

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Response to Cha (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:55 PM

28. Thanks again. :)

Just seeing you made my day.

I've got all these people insisting that I have to be a mope and I don't want to be a mope. Things are looking pretty good. More good economic news today, despite the phony claims of gloom and doom from "conservatives" who were claiming that big corporations were going to retaliate against us for voting for President Obama. Some "conservative" Congressmen are showing early signs of sanity.

Yet there are some who just seem to be addicting to bitching and moaning.

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Response to Cary (Reply #28)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:07 PM

41. Yep.. this has been proven ad nauseum..

"Yet there are some who just seem to be addicting to bitching and moaning."

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Response to Cha (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:39 PM

20. Thanks. Some good threads to bookmark.

So when the tax cuts for the wealthy end up still being in place, and when cuts are made to medicare, medicaid, and social security I'll have lots of references to go back to.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:19 PM

33. Go back to for what?

What are you going to accomplish?

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Response to Cary (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:50 PM

56. Hopefully nothing because I will be wrong.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope that folks like those who wrote that article and post in these threads are right and people like myself are worried about nothing. And medicare won't be cut, and Social Security won't be cut, and the tax cuts for the wealthy that are draining the coffers of our country are allowed to expire. And that folks like me are worried about something that won't happen.

But if I am right (and again, I hope I'm not) and social security is cut, or medicare is cut, or the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy are allowed to be extended yet again then I hope that maybe, just maybe it will convince some people who are of the "Oh let's just trust the president and democrats to do what is right and not push the to hard" that this tactic is not working.

GLBT folks didn't just sit back and go "Oh, don't worry Mr. President. If you can help us and lend us support then great, but if not we understand you're in a bind." They put pressure on him, criticized him where he deserved it and made sure he knew that the very much would like something in return for their support.

Latinos didn't just sit back and go "Oh , don't worry Mr. President. If you can support immigration reform that's great but if not we understand you're in a bind. We'll still support you even if you go against what you say you want." They put pressure on him, criticized hi where he deserved it and made sure that they would very much like something in return for their support.

The list goes on. So it would be nice if more people realized that this type of pressure gets action and that just chilling out and hoping that they have it, has led to dissapointment waiting for them to do the right thing.

If it comes to it, and one person can be convinced that the hands off approach and the tacit approval of everything the president and the dems do no matter who destructive it is to the country simply because they are supposedly on "our side", then that's what I will accomplish by being able to go "You see? We said this approach wouldn't work, and it didn't."

But again, hopefully I will have no need for that and the only thing I'll need at the end of this year is a nice soapy hand towel to get the egg off of my face for being wrong, and a big old plate for the crow I'll be eating.

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Response to Cha (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:03 PM

48. Great link. Sums up how I've been feeling about the ever-wounded left.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #48)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:33 PM

53. Glad you

liked it.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:46 PM

8. I feel fine. I'm giving our folks a

little time for R&R. I am still confident that they will do the right thing...we'll see.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:46 PM

9. What change did you expect?

I knew that whether Obama won or lost on November 6, I still would have to get up on Wednesday morning and go to work.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 04:57 PM

12. Well it's sure the F_ck better than this.

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Response to Sky Masterson (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:26 PM

17. We're lucky that he didn't appoint one or both of them to high-level Administrative positions.

 

Every time that he has otherwise appointed influential Republicans to Cabinet positions or other high-level positions, it has been explained with words such as "He's keeping his enemies close to him."

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #17)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:23 PM

35. That just sounds rediculous.

If anything Obamacare is safe and the supreme court will not have it's next two judges appointed by Romney.
Y'all are as defeatist as a mutha.

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Response to Sky Masterson (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:36 PM

19. Irrelevant.

We voted. We supported. We elected Obama/Biden, not Romney/Ryan.

Whether or not it could be worse does not excuse bad behavior on the part of Democrats. Especially when the facts, the truth, and the political optics to everyone outside the Beltway, "Very Important People", DC media circuit, are all on "our side".

We gave Obama/Biden the power, and we got more seats in both the House and the Senate so that they would do what was right and do what they promised. Using "It could be worse" is not a fucking excuse.

At this point, Democrats are in the driver seat. The tax cuts will expire at the end of the year if nothing is done and then they can put Republicans immediately on the spot. If they choose not to do this that's fine but it's not because they have no choice and just because "the other guys would be worse" does not excuse the shittiness of their proposed Grand Bargains.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:02 PM

13. EXACTLY! I've Ben trashing whiner threads left and right!

So tired of it! And meanwhile, Republicans are acting like they won!!!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:13 PM

50. I don't think many people on DU understand what being in charge of the

executive branch actually means. Sometimes I just shake my head and say wow.

Oy vey.

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Response to Politicub (Reply #50)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 09:24 PM

58. I know. It's very frustrating. VERY!!

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:11 PM

14. Agree. Medicare -- and our health care system -- has needed an overhaul for a long time.


No, I'm not suggesting we cut/decimate what is called "Medicare." But, our health care system -- of which Medicare and Medicaid fund roughly 50% -- dang sure needs an overhaul (single payer, or at least public option would be nice).

To sit and do nothing if the opportunity arises, would be wasting another chance to improve what will continue to be a burden for our society.

As much as I would like to believe that taxing the rich and cutting defense is all that is needed to resolve our fiscal problems, I know it is only a start (although a good one).

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:20 PM

34. Getting people back to work, at better paying jobs, will do a lot too.

But the costs of medical care have to be dealt with.

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Response to Cary (Reply #34)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:52 PM

38. I agree with you 100%. I fear we are in long-term situation where full-employment is illusive.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #38)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:06 PM

40. We just lack the political will

I blame "coconservatives."

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:16 PM

15. The Election Changed Nothing

The RAPEuglicans still control the House, and still are committed to a "scorched economy" policy.
We kept them from taking over the White House or the Senate and maintained the status quo
for another two years. That was the best we could hope for, but it is understandably not all that satisfying.

And in terms of going over the fiscal cliff, this isn't going to be a fun ride. It's certainly worth trying to work something out.


Going off the cliff will hurt our constituents more than theirs, of course, and the MSM will ensure that Democrats take the blame for the resulting recession, which will most likely cost us the Senate in 2014, but surrender is the only other option. That would mean the end of Social Security and Medicare as we know it. The RAPEuglicans NEVER compromise.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:48 PM

23. The election did change something....

It showed that people will vote for the party that says they will support the poor and the working class and the middle class, and will fight for the programs that help them. They voted against the party who wanted to cut those programs to protect the wealthy.

The Democratic party can either use that and win the messaging and the political war, or they can cower and continue to buy into right wing republican framing. It's their choice but the message was clear. It's only a matter now of whether they will listen to it or if they will listen to the Pete Peterson's, and Alan Simpsons, and Joe Scarboroughs and Chuck Todds of the world or if they will listen to the voters.

Our constituents will not be hurt more than theirs if all the tax cuts expire on January 1st. Nobody will suddenly get bills for hundreds or thousands of dollars. And it especially will not hurt them if immediately when they all expire, the first order of business is to put The Obama Tax Cuts up for a vote and let the Republicans vote against them, and have them explain that it's because the wealthy aren't getting enough money.

You're right, they will NEVER compromise. So the time to keep worrying about what they want or they will or will not support is done. We need to win on the optics or we will forever be going "Well, we could do that, BUT we just need a few more seats. Just give it 2 more years...4 more years...8 more years...16 more years. Until then, let's keep supporting what they want."

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:29 PM

18. And you'd feel the same way about a Medicare overhaul if Romney had won, right?

 

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:42 PM

21. Anyone who has to use a hack coined term of fiction like 'fiscal cliff' to promote their

notion that Medicare has to be cut to shreds makes me not only laugh, but think of words like 'unamerican shill' or 'morally treasonous to the people of this nation'. But that's just me. Clearly, dear OP you adore wild fake language, and blame those who are discussing this for discussing it in ways that bother you. Well how precious is that? 'Stuck pig! Fiscal Cliffffffff! Not going to be fun ridfe!'
How on earth can we 'work something out' with folks like you raving away in extreme and meaningless political lingo and wailing of others do not join you in saying 'Cliff! Danger!.
And another thing. This crap where McCarthy inspired folks use words like 'alleged liberals' to describe those who are not panting for right wing Medicare cuts is just disgusting behavior. Who are you? The Judge of All Things Liberal? With your need to ax benefits and your panic language, you sure the hell don't seem qualified to be the judge of anything or anyone.
Alleged liberals indeed.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:50 PM

24. Explain to me why I should accept this from you.

You attack me, as if I have anything to do with it. What exactly do you get out of that?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #21)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 08:15 AM

71. Corporate scenery attempts to surround us.

We are treated to the Third Way talking loudly to itself.



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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:53 PM

25. Turn him OFF!!!!

We all saw this coming-he's a big baby who can;t see the bigger picture-same thing as with the HCR bill. Obama plays chess, Ed Schultz can only see checkers. Randi Rhodes was the one who said this to a caller last week-TURN IT OFF. What I am doing is continuing to WORK-sending out those emails-I want the Bush tax cuts gone-I want senate reform with the filibuster-go to Left Action dot com and stay busy oh yea, and if you want to stay sane...TURN OFF THAT FAKE DEMOCRAT ED SCHULTZ

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 05:53 PM

26. Keep the faith

It doesn't happen overnite and never does. But there will be a time when you wake up and realize that it was all worth it.

A lot happens that is not out in the public.

The fiscal cliff is not going to be as drastic as it sounds.

Remember too that those alleged liberals (don't know which ones you talking about) may have a hidden agenda. Some of them if they are politicians need to be dragged along. If they are more to the right.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:35 PM

36. You have to remember who Ed Schultz is. He's afflicted with foot-in-mouth. Remember he was....

all up in the middle of the WI recall, and he was on a mission to overthrow Scott Walker, and when he saw his limited influence wasn't gonna accomplish that, he started to shift the blame to the President for not "showing up".

Ed's a loudmouth, with no much actual education, but he sounds like Rush Limbaugh, and apparently that's enough to get you a spot on the teevee.

Remember this, the idiots on the left who claim to have singlehandedly elected this president, are just as eff'd up in the head as the teabaggers who have predicted Armaggedon since the president's reelection. Most of it is about attention seeking, you'll see a lot of that.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:27 PM

43. I hear you

I don't have to like it though.

And I did get some friendly voices here.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 06:52 PM

37. Expressing concern for the elderly and sick is "squealing like a stuck pig"?

 

Niiiice.

I'm with Ed. He was shaken last night after watching David Plouffe. And so was I.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:22 PM

42. Good grief.

What part of the legislative process is David Plouffe involved in?

Ed is going out of his way to be a whiner. It's disgusting. Can we at least have the discussion for goodness sake? We came out of the last lame duck with a lot of good things and we look even better this time around.

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Response to Cary (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:37 PM

44. "Discussion"? Trashing Ed for his reaction is not a disussion.

 

It's simply deflection.

How about "discussing" what David Plouffe said: "Democrats are going to have to do some tough things on spending and entitlements that means that they'll criticized on by their left"

I think it means Medicare and Medicaid recipients are going to get screwed. YMMV.

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Response to forestpath (Reply #44)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:48 PM

45. if you can whine aboitnDavid Plouffe

Then I can whine about Ed.

I hope he gets fired. So there.

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Response to Cary (Reply #45)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:57 PM

47. I'm using Plouffe's own WORDS. I said not one word about him personally.

 

Apparently you don't want to discuss Plouffe's actual words...just Ed's gut-punched reaction to them.

That says it all.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:05 PM

39. Read this, be active and stop worrying about every little thing.

If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!
Rudyard Kipling

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 07:52 PM

46. The term hasn't even fucking started

Get a grip and be happy that we beat back four years of a republican running the executive branch.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:08 PM

49. The status quo won... what do you expect to happen?

Obama re-elected.
Democrats held the Senate.
Republicans held the House.

A few seats changed but otherwise the multi-billion dollar election didn't change anything.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #49)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 08:12 AM

70. Better than Prez ROmney, GOP Senate, and GOP house.

Which was the likely alternative.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #70)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:10 PM

80. It was never very likely

And the poster is correct, it is status quo. Considering the last 4 years, which include loss of control of the House, a mandate, no public option, Gitmo still open, and more troops in Afghanistan than when we started, that's not exactly something to get excited about. And really, in the next 4, can you really point to anything that one should expect of any significance? I'm talking something transformative such as Medicare for all, or reduction to a 9 carrier Navy. Heck, how about the union "card check" legislation.

Truth is that at best what we are looking for is to lock ACA into the economic system so tightly that it becomes hard to undo, which would probably mean mandates into the foreseeable future and no public option/single payer for more than a decade. We are probably looking at some sort of "permanent" presence in Afghanistan, not calling them combat troops, and claiming they are only there to "fight Al Queda" or some such language. We'll get a deal on the fiscal cliff, and it will include revenue increase, many from tax increases. But we'll get little else. Probably some changes around the edges to "cut out waste" and really at most we'll see changes that impact COL increases negatively, or possibly retirement/eligibility ages (even if only for higher incomes). We might get a reversal of DOMA (a Clinton era law finally being undone). We may get two new, younger, SC justices that will maintain the status quo on the SC. But exactly what is being proposed for the next four years that anyone around here should be getting excited about except "not doing what the GOP would have done"?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #80)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:25 PM

83. So I'm sure you will start a Progressive Prez 2016 DU group any day now, right?

As for your other points, I recall folks like you saying ...

Obama was never going to get us out of Iraq
Obama was never going to end DADT, and if he did end it, he'd slow walk it so that it never really happened.

Of course in 2008 as a candidate he said he'd add troops to Afghanistan. Perhaps you missed it.

But clearly, you won't be happy during the next 4 years regardless of what happens ... so again I wonder when you will start the Progressive Prez 2016 group here on DU ... I mean that's really the next chance to change the world, right?

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:21 PM

51. I am an active Labor supporter, but I don't listen to Ed. I doubt his respect for the Henry Wallace

branch of the Labor family tree.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:26 PM

52. I knew there would be no change....no warm fuzzies.

 

We have only slowed the process of destruction. Which I guess is better than the austerity reactionary government we would have received under Romney/Ryan.

The wars in the middle east are bleeding us dry... and I don't see any change.

Obama said just yesterday.. he is not sure that he will withdraw any troops in 2013.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 08:53 PM

57. Don't let the buzzkill get you down

After 2008 I stopped watching MSNBC, stopped visiting DU, stopped consuming most political media except things like Talking Points Memo and Political Wire. Because I could not stand how they were eviscerating the president almost before he took office. This time, I'm hanging in at DU so far. It seems to be more balanced now. For a while, a few years back it seemed to be anything more like We Hate Democrats Underground. But after the election, no more MSNBC. Instead, I prefer to read the wailing and suffering in the rightwing blogs and sites. A good gloat will do you a world of good. This election was amazingly wonderful. Don't let anything stop you from enjoying it.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 09:37 PM

59. Really?

I feel great! I am so glad the election is over.

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:24 PM

61. Stop watching TV and you will feel better. Victoriious even. nt

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:40 PM

63. We've been hearing the same bullshit for 4 years now about SS/Medicare.

Every few weeks it seems we get a new round of hysterical cries of massive cuts that are coming any day now.

In January 2017, when Obama leaves office and those huge cuts have yet to materialize, then and only then will it stop. But of course, then we'll hear about how Obama really WANTED to cut SS and Medicare but was "forced" by the howlers to lay off.

No matter what, Obama will never do right in some people's eyes.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #63)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:15 AM

67. +1

Thank you for saying that so well.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #63)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:16 AM

68. So if there are cuts...

You'll be mad?

Or will you just go "HE HAD NO CHOICE!!!!!!! LEAVE OBAMA ALOOOOOONE!!!!!!". Or will it be "Well, you see that cut is not really a cut. If you look at it with one eye closed and a shot glass over your other eye, and ignore a few key details it's really an EXPANSION!!! Why don't people give him credit for this massive victory?!?!"

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Response to vi5 (Reply #68)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 08:16 AM

72. Predict when the cuts will occur please.

Explain to us what the cuts will be and when they will happen. Please also explain the advantage Obama gains, personally or politically, by making them.

Those who claimed Obama was going to make such cuts during his first term were WRONG. Think about it. If he lost re-election, those who were SURE he was going to cut them would have been totally and completely wrong.

Now that he has a 2nd term, the same folks will continue to make the same detail free predictions.

So please, if you are so sure, make an actual prediction.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #72)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 08:58 AM

73. I'm not saying he is definitely going to do it.

I approach all of these things with cautious, but open minded skepticism. When I'm wrong, I admit it. I was wrong about whether he would support immigration reform, I was wrong about him supporting gay marriage, and I was right about him extending the Bush tax cuts the first time, and about a few other things (Gitmo, etc.).

I admitted the things I was wrong about and expressed my happiness at having been proven wrong and praised the President's courage when it was warranted.

My issue is 1)With people who think that we don't need to hold our party and our President's feet to the fire and put pressure on to make sure they do the right thing and let them know that our support is not always going to be unconditional, and 2) The people who when they are rong and the president does do something that deserves criticism, come up with every excuse in the book about how it wasn't his fault and he didn't REALLY want to do it because he had no choice and on and on and on and well if you look at it through this prism it wasn't REALLY a defeat.

I hope you are right, and I am wrong about this. But I'm not going to assume that by us sitting back and trusting ANYONE, that they are going to do the right thing without pressure and without some vocal concern on all of our parts.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #68)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:38 AM

90. Perfect example!

What if? What if? You can put that in front of any action. And yet it's never a positive one that you'd like that we see considered with a "what if?"

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #63)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 09:18 AM

74. That's the problem. You nailed it.

There are.people who just want to go outbox their way to be miserable and n top of being Debbie Downer's they cop wn aptitude of superiority.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #63)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 10:36 AM

89. +1

Still waiting for these people to admit he has not done any such thing to date. And then they get made when Prosense posts something with the real facts. Oh no! Another set of facts! We don't want facts! We want hysteria!

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Response to Cary (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:03 PM

78. I agree

I'm mostly depressed because it doesn't look like the Republicans have learned anything from losing. They seem to be going back to the politics of personal destruction with Rice and clinging to Norquist (some of them might seem like they are straying but I'm not sure they ultimately will) on taxes. My hope that things will be better over the next 2-4 years is already waning. If I hear the words "fiscal cliff" one more time, I think that I will scream. They should negotiate some kind of stopgap that will prevent any legitimate problems and wait until the new Congress is seated before negotiating any broad and far-reaching "grand bargain" IMHO.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #78)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:24 PM

82. "Conservatives" are done.

If they don't figure out how to get themselves out of their own little trick bag that began with their cynical Southern strategy, they're down for the count.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And I don't have any confidence in their ability to overcome this any time soon.

No, I'm disappointed in the nabobs of negativity who claim to be of the left. I anticipated their whining but that doesn't diminish my disappointment in them.

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