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Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:24 PM

Secession is possible-can you say plebiscite



Maybe all of us hard working blue state folks should get mean and put the red states out to pasture --it could be happening this month in Spain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/19/catalonia-vote-future-spain

of course, we don't really want to do that, but maybe a shaper focus can be shared with the red states and let them see where their bread is buttered. If we get on this now it could swing the house to blue in 2014

23 replies, 2236 views

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Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply Secession is possible-can you say plebiscite (Original post)
Always Randy Nov 2012 OP
ProgressoDem Nov 2012 #1
Always Randy Nov 2012 #2
ProgressoDem Nov 2012 #7
madinmaryland Nov 2012 #14
IDoMath Nov 2012 #3
Always Randy Nov 2012 #4
IDoMath Nov 2012 #5
Igel Nov 2012 #9
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #8
yellowcanine Nov 2012 #10
brooklynite Nov 2012 #6
carolo Nov 2012 #11
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #13
Aristus Nov 2012 #12
and-justice-for-all Nov 2012 #15
jamtoday Nov 2012 #16
beac Nov 2012 #19
jamtoday Nov 2012 #22
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #21
jamtoday Nov 2012 #23
world wide wally Nov 2012 #17
Iggo Nov 2012 #18
Dems50State Nov 2012 #20

Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:32 PM

1. Fortunately the Supreme Court already ruled that secession is illegal.

Texas v. White

There's no possible way to secede from within the current legal structure. The only way to secede would thus be through illegal means, like revolution.

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Response to ProgressoDem (Reply #1)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:45 PM

2. Au contrar

However, a Constitutional Convention can be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and that Convention to propose one or more amendments to the Constitution. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.

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Response to Always Randy (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

7. Okay, you could do a Constitutional Convention, but...

It would be extremely unlikely, and not a unilateral action.

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Response to Always Randy (Reply #2)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:07 PM

14. That would mean that 13 states could block this from happening...

Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massachussetts
Connecticut
New York
Rhode Island
New Jersey
Delaware
Maryland
District of Columbia
Washington State
Oregon
California

It will never happen.

Would 2/3 of the states even propose a Constitutional Convention?? Highly unlikely.


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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:48 PM

3. I think it's time for us to drop this subject

 

It's easy to see the economic stupidity of Texas seceding. It would have to close 18 military bases, NASA and disconnect itself from $Billions of defense contracts for Haliburton, Lockheed-Martin and others.

But this idea of "kicking them out" is equally stupid for the blue states. You're talking about kicking out most of our agricultural sector. This is based on the idea that the blue states are the income generators. The problem with that is that most of that income generation is a myth - a fairy tale called the Stock Market. We pull natural resources from the red states into manufacturering and financial sectors in the blue states. Kick out those red states and those centers could crumble.

We need each other.

So let's drop this.

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Response to IDoMath (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 19, 2012, 11:52 PM

4. Read the link to Catalonia

please don't misunderstand me, what I am trying to say is that the red state voters do not realize that they receive more in benefits than they pay in---and the money comes from states that vote blue----now that is a basis for discussion

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Response to Always Randy (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:03 AM

5. I understand the argument and the disparity

 

And up until a day or so ago, I was on the side of "don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out."

Then I started really thinking about why that discrepancy exists and realized its really the same thing that #Occupy has been fighting. Much of our supposed wealth is an illusion. We have allowed our farmers to be strangled into selling out. We demand that our raw resources be as cheap as possible and then "add value", much of it out of proportion, as it moves through the production system.

There is a big perception gap between urban and rural America and if we don't bridge it, we will fall apart.

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Response to IDoMath (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:17 PM

9. There's a lot of the "we're all-important and they're crap" thinking.

It goes beyond simple tax transfers.

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Response to IDoMath (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 02:10 AM

8. Besides, if you read the history of Europe, you learn that a small

country surrounded by other countries, regardless how strong the army, is not safe from military attacks. Our union is what keeps us safe.

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Response to IDoMath (Reply #3)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:27 AM

10. And by 2020 Texas might be a blue state.

Which also means it is already quite blue in some areas. Even Utah, Idaho and Wyoming have some Democrats. And it wasn't that long ago that Nevada and Colorado nearly always were red. Obama has taken them twice. Obama is building a new coalition of liberals, civil libertarians, young people, and minorities in this country. With any luck we can retake the House in 2014 or 2016 despite gerrymandering and hold the Senate as well.

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Tue Nov 20, 2012, 12:09 AM

6. Unrec

I don't CARE if it's "possible". The current "petition" has 112,000 "signatures". In the unlikely event that every one is from a resident of the State of Texas, that represents 0.4% of the population. When it reaches 1%, wake me up and let me know.

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:47 AM

11. Great idea

Let them if they want to. They can form their own social security and medicare plans. They can start a fund for veteran benefits and start their own postal system. They can began to save money for their roads and bridges and get no help of any kind from this Government. They can hide from having to serve this country as Romney and his 5 healthy boys did.

And when thousands move from those States because they want the Government in their life, as it has always been, then they can sit around and cry they are broke, can't pay unemployment, can't give the Seniors anything to live on and can't pay their medical bills. Meanwhile, all Federal buildings will close and all Federal money stop supporting schools and colleges. More money for the rest of us!

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Response to carolo (Reply #11)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:15 PM

13. Welcome to DU!

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:54 AM

12. Oh man. Fucking let them go already!

Jeez!

Let's ditch Mississippi and Arkansas and let them fulfill their destiny to become Third World countries...

I'm sick of the whining and bitching...

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 12:47 PM

15. Well before it is considered that a state can scede..

they first have to pay off their portion of the national debt...from what I can tell their is not a single state that can pay up. There are no payment plans either, all or nothing.

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:29 PM

16. Are you sure they thought they'd win?

Hi DU. This is my first post so please be gentle with me.

As an objective observer from afar may I please chide you gently whilst warning of hubris as I do not feel that the kingmakers in the Republican party truly considered Romney to be able to win, or even on the outside possibility of a win that the idea of a landslide was ever going to materialise, nor consider them stupid. Unpleasant, yes, but not that stupid.

If I get anything wrong in trying to create an abstract from this scenario then I ask your indulgence.

The one defining factor in the Right Wing in US politics would seem to be the surrender of the Constitution to the foreign interests of religion, which of course is 'through the looking glass' as far as the Tea Party is concerned until one considers the Dominionist's role in such, as is known 'patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel', it's just the little matter of the separation of Church and State that gets in the way. The religious Right also had a little problem with the opposition when trying to introduce temperance and, if I've read correctly, got round the problem by picking the States off individually till the required number were attained. As you need no reminder this led to the absolute corruption of all three branches of government (the fall before the grace?). Unbelievably there are States which require a test of faith for public office.

So the Dominionists and other scoundrels of manipulation on the right have run two campaigns with unelectable candidates and I feel this is no accident as we can observe by the frenzied hatred of the Federal government being whipped up. Without a sub-text this looks counterintuitive to the neutral observer. It is after all often their or their buddies careers on the line for in undermining the Federal government are they not undermining their own position?

The religious mindset whether truly religious or as a vehicle for greed and self advancement can obviously limit itself by it's very nature, hence I used the 'fall from grace' scenario for their mindset and prohibition for their politics, as they do, to examine the broader picture of what they may be up to.

In poisoning peoples attitude to the Federal government, aside from the military budget and Crusades amongst the heathens, it allows them to work at a State level. However you arrive at a fiscal cliff shortly and they may not be able to be too obstructive or negative in seeking a solution as they have set in and announced through the media that the discontentment with secular or progressive government is in place so may have to show some ability as they look to 2016. Not one I'm confident in calling as how far they think they are on track to the final destruction of the Constitution is unknowable to those outside the caucus. What seems apparent to an outsider is that they set their own supporters up to damage their emotions and begin the irrationality caused by such that has been the meat and drink to the more radical religious and political movements since time immemorial. Those wild claims of sweeping victory I feel were outlandish and outright lies, a cruel campaign against their own supporters to create the lack of hope and desperation the religio-political movement could feed off. We see signs of such in the reactions to the result.

Another cynical exercise in the manipulation of public opinion. Watch especially at the State level as this is where they will be doing the real dirty deeds up to the next election. Sorry if I haven't been clear and it's a little disjointed but I've tried to keep it as short as possible. To complete my mangling of the English language, I am not trying to teach my grandma' how to suck eggs I just don't want you taking a knife to a gunfight in 2016.

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Response to jamtoday (Reply #16)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 08:25 PM

19. Welcome to DU, jamtoday!



Great first post. I too sometimes suspect the GOP is only in the middle of their "long con" and definitely agree that vigilance is the order of the day for us going forward.

Some days I am not so cynical, but most I wouldn't put ANYTHING past the 1%ers that are the true power behind the Republican party. Perhaps one day their "useful idiots" (evangelicals, teabaggers, homophobes, etc.) may turn on them like rampaging war elephants but, so far, they seem content to be taken in by the endless empty promises, blatant pandering and shameless fear-mongering. It's both depressing and terrifying.

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Response to beac (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:10 PM

22. Thank you beac

I suppose I should sometimes wish not to be so cynical but it certainly keeps you on your toes.

Your last points about their promises and especially the fear mongering I feel create severe anxiety amongst constituents, large numbers of whom were already worriedly scanning the horizon for rapture or opprobrium from some greater being. Sun Tzu would have been proud of them...perhaps??

I also worry over the incipient racism it seems to have brought to the surface. Having grown up in the UK your politics/beliefs are more likely to be attacked rather than one's colour.

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Response to jamtoday (Reply #16)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 03:42 PM

21. Welcome to DU!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 24, 2012, 12:13 PM

23. Thanks..



hrmjustin

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 02:51 PM

17. Over 400,000 people have signed a petition for Macy's to break their association with Donald

Trump and that has had no effect whatsoever. The number of people signing this petition to secede is about as significant as spit in the ocean... but not quite

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Thu Nov 22, 2012, 03:53 PM

18. Fuck waiting for secession.

Can we kick 'em out now?

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Response to Always Randy (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2012, 09:42 AM

20. funny thing is the red states take more

 

then they give into the federal system. It actually cost the federal government more to support a red state then it does a blue state.

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