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Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:49 PM

I am convinced that Ohio was stolen from Kerry in 2004

I say that because of how confident Rove and the Romney camp felt on election night even though the polls were saying something else. Like they knew that the OH Sec of State was going to deliver the victory as another Republican Sec of State did in 2004 despite the polls. And when all the networks called OH for Obama they were shocked and that is why Rove went on his rant and Romney waited to concede. They were shocked because it worked in 2004 and they thought they were going to get away with it again.

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Reply I am convinced that Ohio was stolen from Kerry in 2004 (Original post)
Proud liberal 80 Nov 2012 OP
hollysmom Nov 2012 #1
Proud liberal 80 Nov 2012 #2
hollysmom Nov 2012 #3
vt_native Nov 2012 #4
ailsagirl Nov 2012 #23
Coyotl Nov 2012 #27
marlakay Nov 2012 #5
DCKit Nov 2012 #7
EC Nov 2012 #8
karynnj Nov 2012 #10
AndrewP Nov 2012 #16
Divine Discontent Nov 2012 #31
BlueMTexpat Nov 2012 #32
Tippy Nov 2012 #6
doublethink Nov 2012 #11
Tippy Nov 2012 #12
doublethink Nov 2012 #17
Tippy Nov 2012 #25
doublethink Nov 2012 #39
Tippy Nov 2012 #42
Coyotl Nov 2012 #28
Tutonic Nov 2012 #9
limpyhobbler Nov 2012 #13
brooklynite Nov 2012 #14
LisaL Nov 2012 #15
democrattotheend Nov 2012 #18
stevend56 Nov 2012 #21
ailsagirl Nov 2012 #24
Coyotl Nov 2012 #29
Phx_Dem Nov 2012 #19
RomneyLies Nov 2012 #20
brooklynite Nov 2012 #22
Rhiannon12866 Nov 2012 #26
Coyotl Nov 2012 #30
UCmeNdc Nov 2012 #33
MFM008 Nov 2012 #34
blue cat Nov 2012 #35
jimlup Nov 2012 #36
Coyotl Nov 2012 #37
jimlup Nov 2012 #44
Carolina Nov 2012 #38
allrevvedup Nov 2012 #40
DFW Nov 2012 #41
cecilfirefox Nov 2012 #43
Awsi Dooger Nov 2012 #45

Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:49 PM

1. just now?

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:51 PM

2. No I always knew

But this should be proof to those who didn't believe it

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:55 PM

3. There you go!

with these wise guys, we always have to stay alert!

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:57 PM

4. Have you heard of Mike Connell ?

Look on the Google. He was killed for his efforts in Ohio in 2004.

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Response to vt_native (Reply #4)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 11:32 PM

23. I found an interesting website

www.rovecybergate.com

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Response to vt_native (Reply #4)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:25 AM

27. Oh bullshit

Everything on the internet is true you know.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:57 PM

5. They have not fairly won an election

Since older Bush then....something to think about.

More people honestly voted on our side since 1992!

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Response to marlakay (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 01:09 PM

7. Our only defense it to outvote them by 15%.

 

Yeah, that's right bastids, it's OUR country, too.

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Response to marlakay (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 01:22 PM

8. Way before that.

You can go all the way back to Kennedy. They accused Kennedy of having dead people voting because they were projecting again. They did it then and they stole elections by disenfranchising minorities for decades. (century is more like it)

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Response to marlakay (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 01:38 PM

10. Even that was won with a despicable dishonest campaign against

the very honorable, decent, and likable Dukakis.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:32 PM

16. +1

They went into the gutter to defeat the much better candidate.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:25 AM

31. I like Mike! always...

He was so much more classy than HW. HW wasn't the worst president, far better than his spawn, but Mike, like nearly all Dems, would have been so good for the People!

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Response to karynnj (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 04:58 AM

32. Exactly! eom

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 12:58 PM

6. Ohio was stolen....

The Ohio votes were not counted in Ohio they were run through computers in Chattanooga TN...

Here is the link:
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Republican_IT_consultant_subpoenaed_in_case_0929.html

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Response to Tippy (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 01:52 PM

11. Interesting ... from your article back in 2004 ...

'Connell, president of GovTech Solutions and New Media Communications, is a website designer and IT professional who created a website for Ohio's secretary of state that presented the results of the 2004 election in real time as they were tabulated.' -snip-

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Republican_IT_consultant_subpoenaed_in_case_0929.html

The above was back in 2004 mind you.

Now read the following from a couple days ago ... Nov 5 2012 ... (having to do with Uncertified, "experimental" software patches being installed on machines in 39 counties of the key swing state)

'The story included a copy of the contract between Republican Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted’s office and ES&S, the nation’s largest e-voting system manufacturer, for a new, last-minute piece of software created to the custom specifications of the secretary of state'. -snip-

'The memo claims that “its function is to aid in the reporting of results” by converting them “into a format that can be read by the Secretary of State’s election night reporting system'. -snip-

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/05/ohio_republicans_sneak_risky_software_onto_voting_machines/


Hmmmmm ....

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Response to doublethink (Reply #11)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 02:46 PM

12. I knew about the patches about two weeks before the election

Also knew it was not legal for the SoS to put these on the machines...But he jumped right in..They had every intention of creating a Romney win, no matter what..Black Box voting did a lot uncover what was going on in all the way back to 2000....Have you been to Bev's site?

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Response to Tippy (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:49 PM

17. Haven't been to the BBV site since probably 2004. :)

But anyway I find it curious that these so called 'new 2012 experimental software patches' seem to have had (so they say) the exact same purpose of something that was already developed and used in 2004. The stated 'purpose' in both these stories from 2004 and 2012 had to do with giving the Ohio Secretary of State the ability to watch the tabulated votes in real time, as they were counted.

Simple question I would like to ask Jon Husted is what was so new about these patches? I'll have to find the interview but I remember Husted telling a reporter and I'm paraphrasing here "that the patches were to be able to watch the tabulated votes in real time" end of quote ... But that ability was already in use in 2004, so there is nothing new about it. Interesting stuff to say the least. Hmmmm ....

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Response to doublethink (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:45 AM

25. I would say it is very interesting stuff..I put my tin foil hat away

Some time ago.....

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Response to Tippy (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:26 AM

39. I had kind of a 'epiphany' earlier today ...

Hear me out on this because it's kind of funny, or would be a form of poetic justice in a twisted way if it was to happen. Anyway I was once again pondering the inability of 'us' to look inside these voting machine's and their 'tabulators' because of their legal justification as 'proprietary software'. The manufactures of these machines, have 'legally' gone about thwarting our open democracy by claiming some right of the need to keep their 'innards' secret. It would be an 'infringement' on their corporate rights, profits, copyright protection, or what have you if the American public was to inspect the source codes in these things. At least that's the way they've gone about legally keeping us from inspecting these damn machines for years and I don't see that changing in the near future.

On the other hand our government now has the ability to spy on us, the American public in regards to the erosion of our 'rights' we as everyday citizens have lost over the last 12 years since 911. In the name of 'National Security' our cell phones can be monitored, e mails, texts, computer communications etc... etc... our privacy is basically gone. All of the above is one of the obvious paradox examples that corporate rights now officially trump citizens rights.

But then I got to thinking as Romney is known to say "Corporations are people my friend" ha here comes my epiphany ...

Soooo what if the Justice Dept. or the National Security Powers that be (now under the direction of the Obama administration) happened to turn these 'spying' tactics on this corporate electronic election system this past Nov 6th? Call it what you will, if someone were suspected of trying to subvert our democracy by manipulating the vote, wouldn't that be a National Security issue?

I believe President Obama is a really good man, with a very sharp team around him, they aren't stupid. I also believe that in 2004 President Bush and his cronies were crooks, but the federal government was in his hands then. So any possible corruption that may or may not have happened back then as it pertained to these electronic voting machines, tabulators and such, well we just couldn't do anything about it.

I remember reading that John Kerry of all people flew to Ohio right after the news came out about Husted's 39 county 'experimental' computer patches being installed, on Friday Nov 2nd just past. Hmmmm, and then Romney decides to fly to Cleveland Ohio on election day to be followed immediately by Joe Biden (unannounced) 20 minutes later both planes parked on the same tarmack. I took Biden's trip as a message to the Romney campaign as a possible 'we are watching you' moment, so 'don't even try it'.

Well anyway this could all be nothing but would sure be a great movie plot for Tom Cruise in his next Mission Impossible !!! LOL was fun thinking about while getting my yard work done earlier ... ha! All the best.

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Response to doublethink (Reply #39)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:54 AM

42. The plot thickens....:) but could be closer to the truth than we think

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Response to Tippy (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:27 AM

28. Oh bullshit

Ohio votes were counted in Ohio by Ohio election officials who knew their totals and reported them to the State of Ohio. Then, the official counts were reported weeks later. You have fallen for a ruse.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 01:33 PM

9. Right on, right on, right on!

Only this time around Karma was at the front door waiting to give Karl ROve a big beat down. Here's something else to ponder--when all votes are counted, Romney is going to have less than 47.5% of the vote--Cali, Oregon, Wash, Ariz (Maricopa) and Ill are still not fully counted. That 47% comment will smack him upside his head again!

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 02:48 PM

13. me too

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:00 PM

14. The ohio Democratic Party wasn't worried about the patch...

...and neither did the Obama campaign. And I know because I directly asked someone in the Ohio Democratic Party in a position to know. But perhaps they not as informed as a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 03:02 PM

15. Whether democratic party was worried or not, OH should not be installing experimental

software onto machines right before the election.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 04:06 PM

18. Tough to say

When I looked back at pre-election polling from 2004, Bush was ahead in all but one poll. And I believe exit polls nationally showed that late deciders broke for Bush, so I think it's more than likely he did win Ohio. Early exit polls are not determinative, because they always get reweighted throughout the night to match the actual vote. My old boss, who is an expert in this stuff, explained to me once why early exit polls are not always accurate and mismatches between early exit polls and data doesn't mean the election was stolen. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it made sense to me and he knows polling better than almost anyone I know.

That said, there was some definite funny business in Ohio in 2004. The votes being switched in the middle of the night, Mike Connell mysteriously dying in a place crash...I think it's definitely plausible that machines were tampered with then and in 2012. In order to do that under the radar, they would have to be programmed to increase the GOP percentage just a little bit per machine, so that the results in any one county or precinct don't raise red flags (i.e. a Republican winning Cuyahoga). So it's possible that they were tampered but that tampering without detection can only yield a limited number of votes, not enough to flip Ohio toward Romney (and maybe not even enough to flip it to Bush in 2004). I think it's unlikely that machines were tampered but it is possible and needs to be investigated.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:57 PM

21. Agree!

It takes a lot of people to steal votes. The more people, the bigger the chance of getting caught. I just don't see it on a big enough scale to make a difference. As to Rove, he believed his own BS just like the Romney campaign.

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 11:38 PM

24. Tiny edit: 'plane crash,' not 'place crash'

Go to www.rovecybergate.com
It has some interesting info

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Response to democrattotheend (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:32 AM

29. Ohio 2004 was mostly punch card voting, yet the machines stole the election

When will people realize that machines don't steal elections if people are voting with a different means of voting?

Just how stupid is everyone to just keep on believing this crap about machines stealing Ohio in 2004? Get a brain!

Ohio 2004 was 3/4 punch cards, and in the few machine voting counties the vote tilted blue compared to previus elections. That's FACT!

Another fact: Ohio punch card voting was designed to steal elections in the first place! That is how Ohio turned red!

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:23 PM

19. Ditto on your entire post.

Fuck you Rove. We thwarted your election stealing plan and now you are political toast.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 06:35 PM

20. It was voter suppression, not machine shenanigans

 

Ken Blackwell insured that the precincts that were primarily Democratic did not have enough voting machines, moving the extras to strong bastions for Republicans.

It's nothing new. Husted engaged in the same shit this year. It failed this time with the early voting.

BTW, the wingnuts are claiming voter machine fraud is how Obama won this year. Same conspiracy theory, different losing side.

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Response to RomneyLies (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 10, 2012, 07:06 PM

22. Thanks for a refreshing bit of sanity...

Karl Rove would have spent as much money as he did if all he had to do was push a button.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:02 AM

26. I've agreed with you since 2004, after reading the Greg Palast article

That came out the day after the election. He said Kerry really won Ohio and New Mexico, which would have given him the election.


Kerry won. Here are the facts.
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:38 AM

30. I am convinced that Ohio was stolen from Kerry in 2004 because of the statistics

There is plenty of evidence if one needs evidence. However, people don't seem to accept science and mathematics, or at least they lack the education to understand it, so they rely on feelings and the opinions of others, often on theories promulgated as fact to obfuscate the real evidence.

How Kerry Votes Were Switched To Bush Votes
http://jqjacobs.net/politics/ohio.html

"In a subset of 166,953 votes, one of every 34 Ohio voters, the Kerry-Bush margin
shifts six percent when the population is sorted by outcomes of wrong-precinct voting."

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 05:24 AM

33. The bottom line is the voting machines need to be fixed

Fixed meaning adding the ability to have a paper trail in place. Plus a system that gives each voter a receipt on paper of how they voted. If there is a problem with the counting the system should be transparent and all sides can see the justification and reason for the vote count results. (Remember with the paper receipts each voter gets showing how he voted can be called in by party leaders to compare against overall final vote counts)

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 06:14 AM

34. of course

And they would have stolen this one if they could have. The early call in Ohio totally screwed up another Florida plan to steal the election. They just called Florida for the Prez, the could have been playing with ballots for 3 full days.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 07:55 AM

35. me too!

What you said.

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 12:35 PM

36. I'd like to find a compelling and organized resource of information

about the suspected vote frauds in both Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004. We need a way of accessing this information quickly and efficiently if we are going to win this debate. Because the other side will always say "Show me the evidence." Well I know we've got it. Let's organize it!

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Response to jimlup (Reply #36)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:43 PM

37. DU has a lot of information in the archives, including the minute by minute developments post 2004

Cuyahoga is a good keyword to start searching inside DU, with "vote-switching"

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cuyahoga+"vote-switching"+site:democraticunderground.com

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #37)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 01:10 PM

44. Thanks

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Sun Nov 11, 2012, 01:46 PM

38. 2000 and 2004

were both stolen. That's one reason repukes can't get past 2008 and 2012. They thought 2008 was fluke, but 2012 is a resounding REBUKE. And they're sick that their lying, cheating ways didn't prevail TWICE again.

Imagine the different world we'd have had without 8 years of Bush, the dumber!

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:13 AM

40. So am I, and so is RFK Jr., who says 357,000+ voters in Ohio,

 

mostly Democratic, were prevented from casting their ballots or didn't have their votes counted in Ohio. From his 2006 Rolling Stone article:



Notice that this includes 66,000 votes destroyed by faulty equipment, namely reliably unreliable punch-card machines:

In addition to problems with electronic machines, Ohio's vote was skewed by old-fashioned punch-card equipment that posed what even Blackwell acknowledged was the risk of a ''Florida-like calamity.' '(170) All but twenty of the state's counties relied on antiquated machines that were virtually guaranteed to destroy votes (171) -- many of which were counted by automatic tabulators manufactured by Triad Governmental Systems, (172) the same company that supplied Florida's notorious butterfly ballot in 2000. In fact, some 95,000 ballots in Ohio recorded no vote for president at all -- most of them on punch-card machines. Even accounting for the tiny fraction of voters in each election who decide not to cast votes for president -- generally in the range of half a percent, according to Ohio State law professor and respected elections scholar Dan Tokaji -- that would mean that at least 66,000 votes were invalidated by faulty voting equipment. (173) If counted by hand instead of by automated tabulator, the vast majority of these votes would have been discernable. But thanks to a corrupt recount process, only one county hand-counted its ballots.(174)


RFK Jr.'s conclusion: if those votes had been counted, Kerry would have won the presidency by 1,600 votes. Other estimates (Richard Charnin's for example) are higher.

-- "Was the 2004 Election Stolen?," by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Published on Thursday, June 1, 2006 by Rolling Stone magazine, link: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-34.htm


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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 04:23 AM

41. Well, let's see who the players were

The head of the Diebold company, who said he would "deliver Ohio for Bush," the Ohio Secretary of State, who also happened to be the Ohio chairman of the Bush campaign, and the governor of Ohio, who would later be indicted while still in office for election-related offenses.

That plus the fact that some Republicans obviously knew the outcome in advance, and why:

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 08:59 AM

43. It's been 8 years, let the dream go.... lol nt

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Response to Proud liberal 80 (Original post)

Mon Nov 12, 2012, 02:07 PM

45. One basic problem with this

Ohio tilts red. The partisan index is always red. In other words, the relationship between the state margin and the national margin.

Even this year it's a red partisan index. We had every unusual advantage in the state, like the auto industry situation and better than typical economy with lower unemployment rate. Yet the state still resisted us and will end up being more red than Obama's national average. I realize there are provisional votes to be counted but the national margin is similarly headed up.

In our big year of 2008 Ohio had a red partisan index.

In 2004, those 2008 and 2012 edges in Ohio didn't exist. Bush won nationally by 2.4 points but we want to believe Ohio magically demonstrated a different trend than any cycle before or since, and voted a few points more blue than the country.

To get there, I guess you have to pretend Bush did not win nationally by more than 2 points. It requires siphoning or re-switching votes in state after state. I don't know why I bother, because what I'm describing is exactly what the theft crew is most comfortable with.

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