If you're Bernie or Bust, then arguing "we need Bernie to beat Trump" is disingenuous.

[YouDig]

Even if you are dumb enough to believe that the polls showing Bernie leading Trump by more than Hillary mean anything at this stage, it's still totally disingenuous. Bernie or Bust (aka Bernie or Trump) means if you don't get Bernie, you're willing to let Trump win. Because stopping Trump is not very important to you.

Bernie or Bust people obviously don't care about stopping Trump, they only care about the one great savior Bernie. That's why it's called Bernie or Bust. If it's not Bernie, then it's Bust. Stopping Trump doesn't matter, only Bernie matters.

So you can stop pretending to care about stopping Trump, nobody believes you.

[Tal Vez]

1. Every Democrat worthy of the name

will support the Democratic nominee in November. I have no doubt about that.

[Sky Masterson]

2. Why, thank you Arbiter of knowing what is in a persons mind and thier motives.

It truly is a gift.
If I was so incredibly talented where I could glean what the masses collectively believe I'd be in advertising or something and not spamming a board with the clear intent of angering people. But what do I know? I'm just a disingenuous dummy.

[YouDig]

3. Are you Bernie or Bust?

[Sky Masterson]

6. I live in Kansas

I don't have a vote that matters.
So whether I'm "Bernie or Bust" or "With Her" is irrelevant.

[YouDig]

7. OK, in that case, Bust away. Still being part of the BOB "movement" encourages

others who live in swing states to do the same, which only helps Trump.

[Sky Masterson]

11. That is the thing.

People assume that all Bernie Supporters are diehard democrats who feel a party loyalty when that is further from the truth.
I personally would have a very hard time voting for Hillary and I have voted for every Democratic presidential candidate since Gore.
I'll be 50 in a few days and I am at the point in my life where I am tired of settling.
As soon as this primary is over and if Hillary wins the nod,
I will simply stop paying attention to the race.
I will cease to care.
Refuse to worry.
Let 2016 play out as it will.
I will probably still vote but since I live in Kansas I can vote my heart.

[Garrett78]

12. Gore-Kerry-Obama-Clinton...all basically the same policy-wise.

I can sort of get the "tired of settling" thing, but what triggered that? It's not like there's much difference between Clinton and the previous Dem candidates.

[YouDig]

17. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Obama and Clinton on policy are almost the same.

If anything Clinton is a little to the left of him. Kerry and Gore too. All basically the same.

[Sky Masterson]

18. I do appreciate your snark free civilized question

Honestly. Thank you.
Clinton lost me during the Iraq debacle and her record.
I don't trust her. I can find countless examples of her on the wrong side of issues until those issues poll well.
And it isn't all just that. I am disgusted with the way this primary has been run by DWS and the Party.
I don't want to bash Hillary in this thread, but I am unreachable at this point.

[Garrett78]

24. It's not the individual; it's the system.

The US is so individualistic and oriented toward the Cult of Personality that it's easy to overestimate the power and influence of individual actors, while underestimating systemic forces. Obama was against gay marriage (publicly at any rate) until a mass movement allowed him to vocalize a more humane position.

This being a 2-person race and Sanders able to capitalize on anti-establishment sentiment, he's done remarkably well. But he, too, is a cog in a wheel and is far from having a record on foreign policy that supports the notion that he's the candidate of peace. Consider the following:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-supporting-us-military-violence-abroad

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/27/kill-a27.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/

Bringing about broad systemic change requires organization/mass movements, and I think local politics is where it all begins. I can hold my nose and vote for a presidential candidate without it compromising my values and without it meaning I'm investing a great deal of energy in national politics. I'm much more invested in local organizations.

There seem to be 3 realistic outcomes this November. Clinton winning by a wide margin (in both the popular vote and the electoral college vote), Clinton winning by a slim margin and Trump winning. You can contribute to any one of those scenarios simply by voting--it doesn't require an investment of time and energy. Which of those scenarios is most likely to help lay the groundwork for progressive reform? A strong rejection of Trump, a weak rejection of Trump or a Trump victory?

I'll close by linking to 2 writings by Julio Huato that were kind of game-changing for me:

http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2011/2011-June/007032.html

http://www.swans.com/library/art11/jhuato01.html

I get that there's a valid leftist critique of the Democratic Party (and its various representatives). I get that there's a valid critique of the US political system as a whole. What I have a problem with (pertaining to Democratic Underground, particularly GDP) is the denial of reality/fantastical thinking, promotion of grand conspiracies (the denial, if you will, of Occam's Razor) and all of the straw man arguments put forth day after day. Since GDP is dominated by Sanders supporters, the vast majority of that stuff comes from Sanders supporters. All of which hurts the cause, so to speak.

Just some food for thought (from someone who isn't a big fan of either Clinton or Sanders, a reader of Howard Zinn and Robert Jensen, etc.).

[YouDig]

13. Who assumes Bernie supporters are Democrats, diehard or not? I don't.

I see all the links to judicial watch and Steve Forbes and the rest of the right-wing media. You think people see that and think that the people posting them are Democrats? Nope.

The Bernie or Bust I don't think are Democrats, and I also don't think care about stopping Trump. They think Bernie is the great savior, and if it's not him, they're just fine letting Trump win.

Which is why I have to laugh when they try to use the head-to-head polls against Trump to try to argue for Bernie as the nominee. Like they care about stopping Trump. No, they don't.

[Sky Masterson]

21. But you need others to Win.

Just Dems won't get her over the line. Specially when a percentage of them are angry.
Bernie isn't a "Great Savior" but he is an honest man with integrity.
I hope you are right and she steamrolls into office, but I remember Bush 2's second term.
America reelected Bush. I was floored! How could our nation be that stupid?
Easy. Apparently they can easily be that stupid.

[Garrett78]

22. I suspect that at least some of the BoBers are Democrats and voted for Obama.

There seem to be a fair number of folks who fail to recognize that Obama and Clinton are basically the same policy-wise. The only reason Obama was able to run (slightly) to the left of Clinton in 2008 is because he was relatively new (i.e., lacking an established record to judge him by), but I never thought an Obama Admin would function any differently than a Clinton Admin.

[Garrett78]

9. I'm not sure your vote doesn't matter.

That's why I started this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512097176

[Sky Masterson]

14. It will matter only as a message.

That message is that I'm pissed.

[uponit7771]

4. I agree, but please note there's waaaaaaaay to much logic in the OP, throw some unicorns and pixie

... dust talk in it and they'll understand better.

End with revolution or "collective energy"... they'll be less adverse to it....

JMHO

[One Black Sheep]

5. Yes, but I never see #BernieorBust people claim their only goal is to stop Trump though.

Their ultimate goal, as far as I have seen, is exactly that, "Bernie or Bust".

So, if Bernie doesn't win the nomination, they say they will either write in his name, or some will vote Green, and others may do other things.

[YouDig]

8. But they use the "we need to beat Trump" argument to try and convince people

that Bernie should be the nominee. But they obviously don't care about beating Trump. It's dishonest.

[Garrett78]

10. The OP makes a good point.

You can say Sanders should be the nominee so as to increase the chances that Trump will lose. Or you can be Bernie or Bust.

You can't be both. Well, I guess you *can* be, but I think it requires some mental gymnastics. If you're truly concerned about defeating Trump (and how can one not be?), Bernie or Bust is problematic.

[Live and Learn]

15. I will only vote for an ethical candidate. Call that whatever you would like.

That does not negate the fact that Bernie can beat Trump and Hillary cannot.

[Garrett78]

19. What do you base that on?

And please don't say the hypothetical general election match-up polls.

[Live and Learn]

20. My world expertise. nt

[BootinUp]

16. LOL, K & R

[barrow-wight]

23. Well said.