Does Bernie's education plan cover $50,000 in student debt a semester?

[itsrobert]

Last edited Wed May 25, 2016, 11:21 PM - Edit history (1)

A Bernie supporter said that she wants Bernie because her daughter is racking up $50,000 a semester in student debt.

I would never advise my children to rack up $50,000 in student debt each semester. That's $100,000 a year, and $400,000 for only a 4 year degree.

Free education is fine if it can be done. But I don't think even Bernie is that dumb to promise students who are racking up $50,000 a semester in student debt that his plan will pay for it.

[emulatorloo]

1. Holy cow that does not sound like a public institution!

Bernie's plan covers public (state) universities.

[tonyt53]

2. Even those are not equal by any means

[emulatorloo]

5. Understood n/t

[Baobab]

48. Government has no control over what private schools charge

Also, starting during the Clinton Administration, [link:dating back to the Clinton era|irreversible back room deals] started undermining the ability to have public education, not just in the US, in other countries too.

Health care too.

[itsrobert]

7. That's what I thought

which is fine. I can't believe how some people don't get that.

[TheBlackAdder]

15. There are a lot of private colleges and universities that completely suck and offer no-value degrees

.


Just because a private college or university charges a lot, does not equate it to a reputable degree.


One of my kids went to a Top 20 private $64K college (w/room & board), graduating in 3 years with a double major. What she did was get pre-clearance to attend county college courses and took almost half of her classes at county, graduating from the private school as a Cum Laude. Instead of paying $3K per credit, she paid $325 per class at county. She graduates with the private school's diploma.

She is now off to Europe for her Masters, which is 1/2 the price of a U.S. state school and 1/4th that of a private institution. The college she got into is one of the top 10 in Europe. And those prices savings includes room, board and airfare included. I think a couple European countries are tuition free, even for Americans.


My next kid is doing a county to state school transfer program, where 1/2 of his classes will be $325 each. He'll graduate with a state school diploma.


That's how you beat the system.

.

[Native]

37. Definitely not. My kids go to an Ivy and tuition alone is about that a year, so my guess is the

$50,000 would likely be the cost of attendance (not just tuition) of an expensive private institution per semester. This person obviously hasn't taken the time to look into Sander's plan. Just when I think people aren't that stupid or lazy....

[KansDem]

3. Is this a public or private school?

http://collegeinfogeek.com/cut-college-costs/

[emulatorloo]

6. Thanks for posting that graphic.

[seekthetruth]

4. A few things......

1) if it's a for profit school, then the tuition is ludicrous, and the school shouldn't be charging that much. Enough with the gouging of students just to get an education!

2) if the school is a public university, then it should be publicly funded. We can spend $1 trillion dollars for a nuclear weapons system, but not education to keep ourselves a well educated society?

In both instances, TUITION IS TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE!

[farleftlib]

8. That's ivy league priced tuition - so no

His plan was for state colleges, not the ivy league universities.

[Corporate666]

18. Incorrect

UCLA costs $61,000 a year.

UPenn costs $67,000 a year.

Cal State Dominguez costs $2,800 per year.

Those are public state schools.


Harvard costs $61,000 a year.

Seattle University costs $58,000 a year.

They are private schools.



So which public state schools does Bernie want to have "free tuition" for? All of them? Why would someone go to Cal State for free when they could go to UPenn for free?

And why would someone spend the money to go to Seattle U when U Penn is ranked much higher and would be free?



If we actually think about Bernie's naive and stupid tuition plan, we see that U Penn and UCLA and Virginia Tech would have so many applications that they would only be able to accept the top 1% of the top 1% of applicants. All the top public schools would have to do the same thing.

So anyone who wasn't already Harvard/MIT material would have zero chance at getting into a good state school. Which means they would be relegated to paying $50k a year for a private university, or paying $2,800 a year to go to a shit school like Cal State Dominguez.

Which perfectly illustrates the problem with Bernie. He doesn't know a damn thing about economics, business or human nature, and is so laser focused on sticking it to anyone who is wealthy that he doesn't even know (or care) that he would be massively screwing over the people he proposes to want to help.

And so many of his supporters are doe-eyed and want to believe in his promises of free shit so much that they put aside common sense and rational thought in their quest to believe this huckster will actually bring them pink unicorns and rivers of gold.


And they react angrily when someone presents them with reality - just watch what the responses to this post will be.

[SheilaT]

25. The University of Pennsylvania is a private school.

One of the Ivy League, I believe.

And where in the world did you get your figures for UCLA? According to their own website tuition and fees is $12,816 per academic year whether you live on or off campus. Living on campus is about $15,000, compared to $10,653 per calendar year. That adds up to less than $30k per year. Add another two thousand dollars or so for books, supplies, and transportation, and it's half what you're claiming. Not a huge bargain, but not what you say.

Too many people, both students and their parents, make very poor decisions about college, especially on the cost side. Too often they don't understand the difference between aid that is free (a grant or a scholarship) and aid that isn't, that is actually a loan.
The schools themselves are complicit because they don't make it crystal clear, but in the end the student and their parents should make sure they know exactly what they are getting into.

Meanwhile, there are excellent community colleges out there and very good state universities and colleges that are not as pricey as UCLA. Not every state is California, which sounds a bit strange to Californians, I know, but trust me here. Perhaps Cal State Dominguez is a truly dreadful school that no one with an IQ above 80 would willingly attend, but other states have very good second tier colleges.

[Corporate666]

38. Sorry, meant Penn State

We don't disagree.

The people getting way overhead in debt are the ones that want to go to the very best schools and don't have a plan for when they get out. Next to buying a home, buying an education is likely the largest purchase anyone will make, and they do it at 18 years old with little financial knowledge or experience. And they go for stupid degrees that have zero chance of giving them an ROI when they get out.

I do not feel much sympathy for the kids, to be honest. There are so many options to keep costs down. Going to a community college and transferring to a moderately priced state school to graduate is one. Picking a cheaper school is another. A great education can be had for $20-40k in total, which can very easily be paid off unless they pursued a useless degree.

As for the costs of UCLA, it's right on the website:

https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

In-state residents it's $34k. Out of state it's $61k.

The point I'm making, however, is that Bernie's plan to make state schools "free" is unworkable and would cause irreperable harm to American colleges and students. Who will pay $50k for a private school ranked in the top 100 when they could go to an even higher ranked school for free? Nobody. So almost everyone would choose the free, better school. Applications will skyrocket, meaning acceptance criteria will get much stricter - way more so than now. Which means only the very top of the cream of the crop will get in. And the average kids get to go to Cal State Dominguez and the like. But at $2,800 a year, I doubt many students couldn't have gone there in the first place without Bernie's plan.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Penn State costs $67,000 a year?

You sure about that?

[k8conant]

51. In-state tuition $12,816 Nonresident tuition $12,816 + $26,682 = $39,498

You were quoting cost of attendance including room and board.

[SheilaT]

54. Penn State doesn't cost that much.

Did you bother to double check the numbers you posted?

Why you insist on posting out of state tuition amounts escapes me. The majority of students at the public universities are in state.

There are those who say all public universities should charge the same amount for all students, whether in state or out of state. The counter argument is, of course, that it is the good citizens of the particular state that is supporting the schools through their taxes. Which is true, except that in the last several decades all states have systematically shifted the cost of school on to the backs of the students. Not to mention certain administrative and coach salaries have sky-rocketed. Plus, very fancy student housing, climbing walls, and various other non-academic things have been built or purchased, or otherwise become part of what's considered essential for a university education.

What's really criminal is the endowments most private schools have, more than enough to provide a totally free education for all the students, and yet private school tuition has gone up even more drastically than public schools.

What it comes down to is what we value. Do we value waging endless wars? Missiles and drones and the like are very expensive. If we, as a society, are going to spend our money that way, then I guess that's our collective choice.

Me, I'd rather vote for the man who has his priorities in line with mine. Not for a woman who has never seen a war she hasn't liked.

I've been saying for many years now that this country is already on its long, slow, sad decline. It probably started with Reagan, but I'll leave it up to future historians to decide that. But ever since that man's time we have been involved in one war after another, and in the past fifteen or so years seem completely unable to end them. Money spent on bullets doesn't feed anyone. Money spent on bombs doesn't buy books.

We spend as much as the rest of the entire world combined on our military. We have bases in some six hundred countries. Oh, there's only a hundred and some countries on the planet? My bad. I doubt many of us could name a one sufficiently unimportant that we don't have a military presence there.

If any other country started to build military bases around the world, well, just think about it. Meanwhile, far too much of our money does not go to the public good, but goes to death and destruction.

[dsc]

94. they are in state now because out of state tuition is so expensive

why pay through the nose to attend an out of state public school when you can pay a lot less to attend an in state one. But if that is removed then why wouldn't people go to out of state public schools in larger numbers. I don't think it would be a 50/50 split but I would think the number of out of school students would increase tremendously under that scenario.

[SheilaT]

108. Yes, I'm sure they would.

As I mentioned above, there are those that think all tuition should be essentially in-state tuition. Unfortunately, given the large spread between in state and out of state pricing, if that were to happen the base tuition would increase for everyone, not necessarily a good thing.

Too bad, unlike other countries, our government isn't committed to keeping secondary education at a more reasonable cost, even if not free.

When I first went off to college in 1965, it was possible to work a minimum wage job all summer, and if you lived at home and saved most of that money, it would cover tuition, books, and fees at many a public university. I know that was the case for the University of Arizona, which I attended. When I tell young people that these days, they simply do not believe me.

Back to your comment about out of state students increasing. That might even be a very good thing, given that different public universities are better for different areas of study. Students, assuming they could find out this stuff, might choose to go to a school that would be a better match for their interests that way.

[rogerashton]

80. Penn State is not exactly public either.

It is "state-related." Semi-private. Similarly Temple, Pitt, and Lincoln.

The public colleges in PA are the state-owned colleges (formerly teacher-training schools) -- Slippery Rock, Kutztown, West Chester, etc.

[Native]

39. University of PA is a private Ivy League school. That said, public tuition can still be very high,

almost reaching private school levels, if a child is attending from out of state. That's one way for wealthier parents to get their kids into the better public schools when their kids wouldn't necessarily make it into their own state schools.

[Corporate666]

72. UCLA costs more than Harvard....

I think everyone agrees and realizes that "state schools" does not mean cheap. The best state schools cost just as much as the best private schools.

Making those state schools "free" is an unworkable plan that is ill-conceived, ill-planned and would produce predictably undesirable results. It's a promise Bernie has made that he can't possibly follow through on, nor has he thought it though nor does he understand the ramifications of it.

[Native]

89. I have to respectfully disagree. Cost to attend instate public is significantly cheaper.

UCLA vs. Harvard (undergraduate annual estimated cost of attendance) is $34,000 vs. $85,000.

[azurnoir]

28. For CA residents tuition is $34,062 per yr if you live on campus-$25,323 living w/family

that per year making per semester as the oP states around $17,032 to $12, 663 depending on where you chose to live

the 61k you claim is for no-CA residents who chose to live in campus housing , I'm not sure Bernie's plan covered those traveling out state for school

https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

[Corporate666]

40. So if it only covers the tuition part for in-state students...

Then it drops the ~$34k price tag down to ~$22k.

Does that suddenly make UCLA a viable choice to people who could never have afforded the $34k price tag? That's still a $100k education when it's all said and done.

People think college is going to be free - that they can go and graduate with no debt. That's not going to happen - even European countries with "free college" don't cover all the costs.

Which illustrates how Bernie's promises are unworkable and unrealistic. And if it only cover in-state tuition, it's quite a kick in the balls for a kid who lives in somewhere like New Mexico or Arkansas where they don't have much in the way of great state schools whereas a kid in California or Florida or Georgia gets to go to some of the best schools. Not very socially fair.

[azurnoir]

44. Bernie idea's are unworkable for those in office that want need and make $$$$$$ to keep it that way

it would be negotiated and in any negotiation where you wind up depends on where you start, the one sure way to achveive failure is to remove it from the table before the dinner even begins

[Corporate666]

47. You came back with a logical fallacy

This is a common theme when Bernie's ideas as analyzed with any sorts of facts. I hear it on here all the time...

-Oh yeah, so we shouldn't even TRY then, great idea!

-It's only unworkable because the establishment won't allow it

and all sorts of other bullshit responses.

What's to negotiate? Bernie wants public school to be free. Even the Euro countries he idolizes don't cover anything other than the basic tuition costs, which means kids are still looking at $15-20k a year to go to one of these 'free' schools.

Second, nobody would disagree that if the tuition cost of UCLA was zero, that applications would skyrocket. I am sure everyone understands and would agree with that. And that necessarily means they must get more selective with acceptance guidelines. Which means only the most academically superior kids would get in. And those kids are so sought after that they would almost certainly qualify for grants, scholarships and other bonuses so they tend to be the ones least likely to need the money.

And since so many of these kids want to go to these free public schools like UCLA... where does that leave all the private schools? How do you compete with "free"? Are we OK with Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, Duke and other schools having to close down? Or reducing the cost of tuition so much that they become a shadow of their former selves?

Look at the ranking of all those 'free' colleges in Europe. They aren't even in the same league as American schools.


There is no free lunch. We can be like Europe and essentially get rid of our best-in-the-world private higher education system in favor of much lower quality but lower cost choices. But I think that is a really, really, really, really fucking stupid idea.

[azurnoir]

67. that's quite a gallop you do there I believe the riding style is called Gish

[TexasBushwhacker]

106. Bernie's plan is for the feds to pay 2/3 of in state tuition

The states are supposed to pick up the other third. It's also just for the tuition. Romm and board, books and miscellaneous fees are to be paid by the families or the students themselves.

[JackRiddler]

30. University of Pennsylvania...

FAQ | University of Pennsylvania
www.upenn.edu/about/faq
University of Pennsylvania
The University of Pennsylvania is a private Ivy League institution...

[Corporate666]

42. Meant Penn State - my mistake.

[farleftlib]

34. Upenn and Harvard are Ivy league

just like I said.

I graduated from Upenn and it was about $50 grand back then per year.

[Corporate666]

45. Yes,

and those ivy league schools are cheaper than schools like UCLA, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Penn State, etc.

To imagine the results of Bernie's ill conceived plan, we could imagine the results if he made shipping with US Postal free.

What would happen to the volume of packages sent with USPS? What would happen to FedEx and UPS's volume?

Same with college. If you make one free, then they will need to get so selective with admissions (due to the massive increase in applications) that it would become an elite school for the very best of the best. Which means the kids who just couldn't afford to go to such a school end up having no shot with the increased academic requirements. So they are left to choose from low quality public schools - many of which are so cheap to attend that going there was never a barrier to entry in the first place.

So "free public college" basically crashes the higher education system, runs the quality of our institutions into the ground, harms the kids who are most needy and ensures they have no shot of getting into good public schools, and winds up being a massive cost to taxpayers to subsidize the educations of gifted students who likely would have gotten grants and scholarships in the first place and didn't need it to be free to begin with.

[elljay]

59. Bull

Both of my parents and most of my relatives went to then-free Brooklyn College and other colleges in the NYC system. To get into Brooklyn, you had to take an 8 hour exam and many were rejected but there were many other schools in the system for people of all academic levels. Brooklyn and City College produced numerous Nobel Laureates, prominent scientists, economists, musicians, artists, authors etc from the working class people of NYC. The wealthy still sent their children to Ivy League schools, but working people were able to get an equivalent free education. Now, those people who went to the free colleges and became successful are having financial difficulties sending their children to colleges that have become obscenely expensive. No one was harmed with the free education, except perhaps the egos of conservatives who resent the unwashed masses getting a leg up. Thee quality of education suffered in neither public nor private schools. Your argument was untrue then and remains conservative BS now



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_City_College_of_New_York_alumni
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Brooklyn_College_alumni

[Corporate666]

63. You didn't make a point

Can you clarify what exactly I said that you are disagreeing with?

It is a fact that the quality of US higher education is far, far in excess of Europe's higher education.

It is a fact that if you take competing businesses and make one "free", that the other will have a hard (if not impossible) time competing.

It is a fact that if you reduce the cost of something, utilization goes up.


We are not talking about one college being 'free' or cheaper than another. We already have that. We are talking about Bernie's idiotic plan to make ALL public schools 'free'. You have not make a reasoned argument based on facts. An emotional response doesn't trump facts.

[elljay]

64. You have quite a Brockian reaponse

All of your points are pure propaganda of the most ridiculous free market capitalist type. They are just the points that someone who has made most of his posts in the past three months would make if he were a troll. If you don't understand that simplistic capitalist free market arguments do not apply to colleges, then you do not understand the subject well. Do you seriously think that all people will be abandoning Stanford for Pocatello City College (no disrespect to Idaho). You don't get the same connections at a public college that you get joining Skulls and Bones at Yale. You don't have the same athletic programs or nice campuses.

BTW, I'm sure Oxford and Cambridge match any college you attended.

[Corporate666]

71. LOL!

You give no data or facts to dispute was said - check

You launch various personal attacks - check

And at the end of you prove me right by bringing up Oxford and Cambridge. Those universities aren't free, sport. And I just checked, the school I attended is actually ranked higher than both the two institutions you mentioned. And I majored in economics, but I am sure I don't have your understanding of capitalism and free markets

Now go look at the countries with free education, and let us know where their institutions are ranked.

You're 0 for 3, kid. I think you need some more of that free education.

[Spacedog1973]

79. idiocracy

The U.K has subsidised universities, not free ones. Students repay their debts once they start working and earning over a certain amount. Some of the best universities in the world are uk medical universities where many medical breakthroughs are discovered and pioneering practices are implemented. These are state run as is the employer. The same with one of, if not the most famous military universities , Sandhurst.

And it's correct, too much jingoistic ignorance on your end. You are also a good example of the problem with free markets despite your apparent education in economics; the limited reach and the consequences of limiting education to a privileged and ignorant few who choose uneeded qualifications. The us, indeed much of the west import technicians, engineers, those who still undertake 'unsexy' qualifications in many developing nations because their own populace are preoccupied with oversubscribed subjects. Completing a degree in IT, or engineering at a foriegn country that doesn't even come in the top 20 on a pointless list, is a greater guarantor of future employment in the US, than one whose alumni get boners over its importance on a list.

Americans are generally regarded as very propagandised; know contradictory truths about their own history and ignorant of the world. Sorry, many Americans acknowledge this truth too. Don't be a prime example.

[Corporate666]

84. bigotry

You could leave the bigotry and prejudice at the door - it just makes you look bad.

You are correct that the UK schools are not free, which illustrates the foolishness of thinking we can retain our best-in-the-world higher education system but make it "free". The countries where it is "free" have schools that do not compare to those in the USA.

You are a good example of the feelings-over-facts voter who is economically illiterate. I pointed out exactly what happens when we make education "free" - we unintentionally make it even more difficult for those that most need help. It's a hare-brained idea from a candidate who just wants to pander to people who don't take the time to think things through - the feelings-over-facts voter.

And the last thing that stands out about your post is the bashing of Americans. I wasn't born here, and I spend about half my time living in Europe - but that perfectly illustrates my first sentence. You created a mental profile of someone based on no knowledge of them whatsoever.

Idiocracy indeed.

[Spacedog1973]

86. How about idiocy?

It's was you who touted a list, your educational background and comparing it with others.

The thing is with lists, is what they measure and how they measure them. With the top universities they measure the ratings upon the outcomes of their students, the universities and their staff. This has absolutely no baring on the quality of the university in real terms and is heavily loaded with bias toward already established and well functioning establishments that by their nature already receive quality students and staff.

The standards are also changed frequently to the extent where they are meaningless to anyone other than those who wish to get a general understanding of a universities facilities. To attempt to evaluate it in comparison with others as a 'best' shows how little you understand or care to understand. Using this as the centrepiece of your argument proves my point.

Bigotry is actually not even aplicable here. I even have to wonder what you understand by using the word.

If you bring your emotion out of the conversation, it was you who touted America as the top of the list, and I that refuted it. Where you were educated has no relevance to that. Check your emotional outrage with an unconvincing accusation of 'bashing of Americans' claim which is a tired and over emotionally sensitive knee jerk defense. I mentioned a truth which you seem to deny. I can cite multiple examples but liberals have been in the good fight against them. If you don't know that being here, then I do wonder.

You have what, 'lived half of your life in Europe' like I've spent half of mine in 'the Americas'. That means nothing. You would know that you need to visit most modern European countries and their educational set ups to evaluate their quality. Living in 'Europe' could mean literally anything. Did you spend your time in Portugal, Italy, Germany, France, the UK? A combination? They are all different. Vastly so in some cases.

You also read poorly. I am not a bernie supporter nor believe in his platform nor am I for 'free university'. Nor am I economically illiterate again i haven't studied bernies platform or how he plans to pay for it and whether it is feasible. I don't care as it couldn't pass in the current climate.

Yeah, that's why the top ten list is shit.

[Corporate666]

87. What did you refute?

You just made a bunch of rash assumptions and tossed some stereotypes and ad-hominems into the mix. And I called you out on it because you were wrong.

And now you just did it again.

-Someone else made an assumption that a couple of UK schools were better than any school I went to. That's false. The person who made the claim scurried away when they realized they were wrong.

-You came along and made an assumption that I am 'ignorantly jingoistic' and a typical "ignorant American", which is amusing considering I am not American by birth, and I have spent about half my life living in Europe. And yes, that does mean something. It means I have direct, first hand experience in living in the places I am discussing. Do you? How many years have you lived in the countries you mention? Or are you just a hypocrite?

-Yes, the bigot label applies perfectly. If you are not aware, a bigot is someone intolerant of other people's opinions. You attacked me, my character, my knowledge and my experience because you don't like the opinions I've voiced here. You're a bigot. If you don't like being called a bigot, then don't behave like one.

-You didn't refute anything, you simply dismissed a whole massive quantity of data and measurements by numerous unrelated and unbiased groups and individuals around the world simply because you don't like the results. That's... amusing. College rankings are not just someone's opinion, and some guy on the internet with bad grammar doesn't trump the results of tons of analysis and research by numerous qualified people who have come up with these rankings. You're deep into right wing "global warming is fake, because I reject all the data" territory.

-"The Americas" is not a social, economic or governance categorization like Europe is. "The Americas" is geographical and nothing more. And no, one does not need to visit every country and their "education set ups" to gauge their quality anymore than one needs to give someone a loan to make a prediction on whether it will get paid back - you look at their credit report, which is based on actual data, not promises and assurances. That's what rankings are. People who accumulate and process data and produce conclusions. If US universities occupied the top of one ranking list, then there would be cause for suspicion. But they overwhelmingly dominate the top of every ranking list. Trying to dismiss all of that is just foolish.

-"Living in Europe" most certainly does mean something when the charge from yourself is that I am a "typical, ignorant jingoistic American". Just like the fact that being a doctor would matter if you claimed I was a sleazy lawyer. Another rash assumption you made and looked foolish for doing so.

-If you haven't studied Bernie's platform or how he plans to pay for it then you *are*, by definition, economically illiterate on this subject. If you didn't want to discuss the economics of Bernie's free public college plan, then why did you come into this particular thread?

Or was it just you saw someone you identified as an "ignorant, overly proud American" and that irritated you and you wanted to get some insults in? Don't bother replying, I already know the answer.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

70. UC is only at those prices for out of staters

In-state is more like 20-30 per year, and most qualify for a financial aid deal that brings that down further.

Also, UPenn is private. Penn State is the public institution in PA.

[Corporate666]

73. So does Bernie's plan

only apply to in-state students who live at home and are within driving distance to a state school? That would be a pretty limiting plan. It would also be unfair to students in (say) Arkansas who don't have the option to go somewhere like Virginia Tech or UCLA.

His plan hasn't been thought through. It is a knee-jerk reaction to a complaint of young people... "college debt is crushing, we can't afford to go!". So he promised a solution without having any ability to deliver on it and without being called out on the negative and unworkable aspects of it.

In other words, it's pure pandering, IMO.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

74. It'd be a step

When my parents went to UC in the 50s, tuition was free. Students were on the hook for room and board, and you paid a reg fee and for books. If tuition was covered, room and board at most state schools is something like 6-12K per year. A kid who does work study during the year and busts ass during summer can swing that and still live away. Remember also that some states (especially in the South and Midwest) off reciprocity or discounting to kids in neighboring states.

Can it be done? yes. Will it be done? Probably not. I don't see it getting anywhere in Congress.

[Corporate666]

76. There's plenty of state schools with tuition below $3k a year

so it you believe room/board (and books, food, health insurance, etc) costs are surmountable, then I think you would have to agree that an additional $2.5-3k would not be a deal breaker.

The issue is that kids don't want to go to the $3k school. They want to go to the $33k school.

And if somehow Bernie could snap his fingers and make it happen, I am sure you would agree that applications at good state schools would skyrocket. The schools would then necessarily have to tighten up acceptance requirements. That would mean these good schools are even more unattainable for the 99% of students who want to go there and only the best would make the cut.

That doesn't do anything for the millions of kids who want relief from college costs. But again, there are plenty of much cheaper options out there - but the kids don't take advantage of them. They want to go to the more expensive schools.

Bernie's plan, even if it were implemented, could not solve the problem these kids are facing. And there's a host of other issues it raises, like how private institutions can compete with other businesses who are getting a huge subsidy. Our higher education system is by far the best in the world, and we mess with it at our peril.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

81. I disagree to a point

Most kids end up within a 4 hour drive of home --often at a state school.

Biggest thing that could/should be done? Educate consumers about the costs of Kaplan, ITT Tech, U of Phoenix, etc. Get people to understand they can take these classes locally at public schools for a fraction of the cost. Educate parents and kids about the financial realities of college, and that your boring state school may be a better alternative than private or out of state school and a pile of debt. Finally, let parents know aid is out there and there is no shame in applying.

You are correct to this extent: free college would be the new ACA, with people screaming that they were misled.

[Corporate666]

83. I think we agree

It's sort of like the stock market. When so much money was pumped into the economy, much/most of it naturally wound up in the stock market. It's not that Obama and Congress wanted to raise the DJIA, it's just the net effect of a massive and complex economy when trillions get tossed into the pot.

Similarly, when huge quantities of money are pumped into higher education, the amount of money flowing to the colleges rises dramatically.

I wholeheartedly agree that kids are not given even close to the appropriate level of information or education on what buying an education costs. I also think that if the government *really* wanted to help, then make government backed student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy like almost any other debt. That would stop the huge money flow to kids who make horrendous financial decisions, like taking on hundreds of thousands of debt for a degree in art history or music. It would force lenders to align their interests with those of students, and force colleges to be price competitive to earn those dollars.

We have transparency in lending that required credit card providers to clearly disclose interest rates, payoff times and such. We should do the same for college education, and make schools keep track of employment rates within 6 months of graduation, salaries obtained, average debt remaining after 5 and 10 years by students, and make it clear what non-dischargeable debt means and what steps can be taken to recover it. I know when I went to school, we just didn't think about this stuff. I went to two universities. One was a good state school that gave me a full scholarship. The other was an expensive private school.

The latter was a mistake. The former was one of the best decisions I ever made (and it was made by pure luck for the most part).

[bravenak]

9. He said public colleges

State schools. I know of no state school that costs that damn much. What a dumb idea to go to school for half a mill ticket and expect Bernie to save them from the debt they owe. And why in the wirld they think it will be retroactive blows my mind.
I bet if he won, they'd be pissed to learn that they were not listening to him and he did no promise them what they think he did. Just like the single payer/public option they thought Obama promised them.

[Corporate666]

19. See above... public school UPenn costs $68k a year. UCLA is $62k a year

[bravenak]

20. He would be stupid to promise that

So....

[Corporate666]

22. How dare you

...question the greatest man in the USA?!?!?

Shill!

Paid troll!

Defeatist!

Low-information voter!



(didn't you get the memo? It's absolutely forbidden to bring rational facts to a Bernie promise debate)

[bravenak]

23. You missed warmonger

[azurnoir]

29. if you are a CA resident it is around 25k living w/family 35k living in dorms

https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm

[Fresh_Start]

10. Completely unfair to fund someone's $50K per semester college

while elementary, middle school and high school students in poor neighborhoods don't have textbooks or a non-toxic school building.
Pre-school and primary school education should be the highest priority.

[zappaman]

33. True but

Those kids aren't of voting age.
That's why Bernie is making promises to 18 year olds.
Easy way to get votes....oops, I mean crowds.

[tazkcmo]

52. Bingo!

I grew up when Mom stayed home and Dad worked. But our mom worked two jobs and our dad worked at a dry cleaner 12 hours (or so he told our mom) a day. They had 6 kids and wanted us to go to good schools so would rent a house in a real nice neighborhood with real good schools. 50 years ago! And it hasn't changed. Poor kids still get 2nd class everything.

We're so antiquated we still have summer vacation so the kids can help in the fields. Geez.

[SheilaT]

11. Anyone who is racking up $50,000 per semester

in student debt is frighteningly stupid, as are the parents.

[TheBlackAdder]

16. I could see $50K-$60K per year, with $14K Room and Board. I am not familiar with a $100K/yr school.

[SheilaT]

26. Not at a public school, that's for sure.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

12. 50k debt does not =50k tuition.

Debt also comes from books, lab fees, room, and board.

At those prices, I'd ask your friend:

1) Did you apply for financial aid? (You'd be suprised how many don't )

2) Public school in state, public school out of state, or private school? My bet would be private.

3) If private, not-for-profit (i.e. Harvard, Stanford, Tufts) or for-profit (i.e. DeVry, ITT Tech, Kaplan). If the latter, your friend should look at community college as a low priced alternative.

My understanding is that Sanders plan would apply to in-state public tuition -- generally 4k to 10k per semester.

[mythology]

17. Even if it's a private not-for-profit like Harvard

a student getting 50k a semester in student loans would almost certainly qualify for financial aid.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

69. My thought exactly

IIRC, Harvard is about 70K per year -- everything (room/board/tuition/books). $50K per semester, I'd think, must be like med school.

[bjo59]

13. $50,000 a year is a common tuition cost at private colleges. Bernie Sanders plan involves

public institutions. Today the University of California charges $13,400 a year for tuition and fees (not including books, insurance fee, room and board). A lot cheaper than $50,000 but still outside the budget of many, many parents unless they take out loans. Heck, students at the community college level are now taking out loans for that "rock bottom" tuition for a 2-year associates degree (Austin Community College charges $2,502 a year).

So, you're right, Bernie Sanders has not promised that tuition will be made free at private institutions of higher education.

[Corporate666]

21. UCLA is $61k a year

You are considering only tuition fees for in-state students and not counting all the other stuff required.

The cost of UCLA for a year is $34k for state residents and $61k for out of state.

https://www.admission.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm


And while I am sure some will say "you don't HAVE to live on campus!", but if you don't, you still need somewhere to live and a car... so unless Bernie intended "free public school" to apply only to in-state residents within walking distance of a public school, it doesn't cost $13k a year. FYI, 96% of freshman students do live on campus (many of the rest in apartments off-campus).

But what will happen if UCLA did become free? They are already extremely selective in admissions. Applications would skyrocket. And what would happen to their selection criteria then, after they get an order of magnitude or two more applications?

Bernie's plan is pie-in-the-sky. Ill-conceived, unworkable, naive and doomed to failure because it simply can't work.

[TexasBushwhacker]

55. Sanders'plan is for tuition only and requires that

states cover 33%. That way it behoves the state to rein in tuition.

FWIW, bigger universities with high tuitions usually offer significant financial aid. If you can get into Harvard or Stanford and your parents earn less than $65K, you go tuition free. At Harvard, parents can make up to $150K and pay only 10% of their income for tuition. It's still a lot, but a degree from Harvard is worth a lot.

[AgingAmerican]

56. Top ten most expensive colleges in the USA are all private

And the most expensive, Sarah Lawrence College, is $61,236 per year, room and board included.

UCLA is not in the top ten most expensive, BTW.

http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/top-10-most-expensive-colleges-in-america/11/

[silvershadow]

14. not sure his Cabinet has even met yet to formulate such details. We are still

in a primary.

[MichMan]

24. Still don't understand how?

I have asked multiple times and can't get anyone that supports Sanders to explain it to me.

Even within public colleges, the tuition costs can vary rather substantially. In Michigan for example, University of Michigan is $14K per year while nearby Eastern Michigan Univ. is $10K. In comparison, Washtenaw Community College (also very close geographically to the other two) is under $4K per year.

If Sander's College tuition plan will pay the tuition costs for all three, why wouldn't EMU immediately raise their tuition $4k/year to match what their neighbor, UM charges?

Why would a student ever desire to attend a Community College, if a well known 4 year school, with a great campus atmosphere,would cost the same amount to the student; zero tuition?

FYI, I realize it was 25 yrs ago, and times have changed, but I went to fine private college in the Detroit area and received a fantastic education earning a Mechanical Engineering degree. Had to take out student loans as I was making little over minimum wage at the time, but it was worth every penny

[gollygee]

27. If we can establish a goal of having some level of college tuition be free

Then we can have a group study to find out what amount of tuition would be reasonable.

[JackRiddler]

31. It covers no "tutition" at all.

First learn how to spell.

[The_Casual_Observer]

32. I think you mean Penn State?

No point worrying about any of this, the congress would never even bring this to a vote. Even if they did it would no doubt be so full of restrictions and exceptions that nobody would qualify anyway.

[MrMickeysMom]

35. I would never advise anyone to rack up that much money in student debt a year!

Public Higher Education (e.g. University of Berkley, CA) used to be paid for, which is more like the public education you'll hear Bernie Sanders say should be available to every person coming through the public education system who qualifies to go on to HIGHER education.

It was that way before in a limited capacity, and it should be budged that way again.

Unfortunately, I know TOO many kids who for some reason go on to private universities like we have in the Pittsburgh area, are WAY over their heads in debt like this, then quit their major, go on to rack up MORE debt in areas that do not offer an entry level position from that kind of degree.

My motto: Easy to get into private universities, because they WANT you to increase student debt... Hard to get into public universities, and that should provide a pathway to gainful employment!

[oldandhappy]

36. the plan is tuition free at state schools

Room, board, transportation, fees for special classes not covered. Private institutions not covered. Whoever you are quoting is nuts. No financial wisdom in that family.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Congress would have a say.

The point of articulating a vision is not negotiating away half of that vision before you start.

Optimistically, the actual implemented plan would provide tuition (and hopefully books) to public colleges at the in-state tuition level.

[Scootaloo]

77. That's the problem with Team Clinton

They don't seem to know how negotiating works. And yet they keep talking about "compromises." Strangely it's always progressivism that gets the compromise when these people make such deals... probably a consequence of not knowing how to negotiate.

[Ash_F]

49. Source please.

[itsrobert]

57. this

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/dfm-mercurynews/poll_hillary_clinton_leading_bernie_sanders_by_18_points_in_california/#comment-2693918837

[Ash_F]

58. That is a high number even for a private school. Maybe she meant per year?

[AgingAmerican]

50. The most expensive college in the US costs $61,236 per YEAR room and board included

And none of the ten most expensive colleges in the US are public.

I would say someone is fibbing.

[HERVEPA]

53. Way to do the straw man thing. Typical of your posts.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Is her daugher majoring in gambling, blow or the mall?

nt

[jillan]

61. No.

[LynnTTT]

62. Read the plan

Sanders plan is to give free tuition at state or community colleges for very low income students. Would not include room and board. It would assume students live at home or work part time.
For wealthier students, he will have lower interest rate loans.
My dumb GOP friend are convinced that Sanders will give free Ivy League education to every kid, whether they are qualified to go to college or not and whether or not they can afford it.

[ljm2002]

68. Sanders' plan is for free tuition at state institutions...

...for EVERY student.

His plan also includes need-based financial aid and work study programs to make college debt free.

His plan does not make any assumptions about where students live.

The lower interest rates on student loans would also apply to all students.

Perhaps you should read his plan. It can be found at:

https://berniesanders.com/issues/its-time-to-make-college-tuition-free-and-debt-free/

[wildeyed]

65. Sure, why not!

Just add another asterisk to the equation and a dash of metamodern thought experiment, suddenly anything is possible!

[Vattel]

66. no, it doesn't cover that, it covers tuition at public colleges.

[slipslidingaway]

75. No and which public institution has 50K per year in tution? Please do not try and be blond to ..

to win political points, my daughter is blond, so I use this old phrase, but she is certainly not dumb.

She voted for Sanders and is an MD.

Sanders has only talked about tuition, not room and board, not sure what you allege or if this is tuition alone which is what Sanders has suggested. And it is not for everyone, you still need to pass the admittance exams.

Why post this?

I should not even be responding to this, but I did.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

78. To be clear, it's your belief that Bernie is dumb, but not THAT dumb?

Just wondering.

[itsrobert]

85. He's a smart man

he knows what he's doing to get votes.

[yurbud]

82. private, for profit colleges should not be included, or at least only up to the cost of public colle

[postatomic]

88. I have a related question

Does the Free College proposed include any Major? I mean can I go to college and get a degree in The Mating Habits of the African Blue Ant?

This country desperately needs Engineers, Software folk, Medical Personnel. To name a few. Talking about The Mating Habits of the African Blue Ant would be great for a round table discussion with a Bong. but it won't do shit to bolster our economy. We need people trained in the jobs needed now and in the future.

[basselope]

90. LMAO!!

50K per semester. No. 50K is the YEARLY cost of the highest cost college in the US (currently Vassar). Even with the student assume ALL fees and living costs, you top out at about 75K per YEAR. Still a hefty sum, but not 100K

Now, if they are going to law school or med school, that might be a different matter. My law school was about 40K per year and that was 20 years ago, so maybe a top law school or med school may cost 100K per year.

But, I think the funniest thing about your story is that you ignore the fact that Bernie is ONLY talking about PUBLIC colleges and Universities. You know, like they USED TO HAVE in New York and California.

[itsrobert]

91. No. The Story is a Bernie voter believes Bernie's plan will

Cover her daughter's excessive student debt. How many are like that Bernie voter?

[basselope]

93. The story is made up in the first place... so why bother with it?

[itsrobert]

95. So the poster on the Mercury News comments made it up?

Are you accusing Bernie supporters making things up?

[basselope]

96. Yes, it's called a phony story.

"A Bernie supporter said that she wants Bernie because her daughter is racking up $50,000 a semester in student debt. "

This is likely not even true that it was said as we have seen on link to the post.

IF it was said, the person is not telling the truth about at least 1 part of the post, b/c their daughter is not racking up 50K per semester in debt, we can surmise that the whole post is phony.

[itsrobert]

97. The link was posted.

Do, I need to post it again?

[basselope]

98. Yes.

But that doesn't change that the story is obviously phony.

[itsrobert]

99. Here it is.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/dfm-mercurynews/poll_hillary_clinton_leading_bernie_sanders_by_18_points_in_california/#comment-2693918837

[basselope]

100. WOW. Not even close to what you claimed.

Interesting how you manipulated the story.

[itsrobert]

101. Baloney, exactly as I claimed

"that my daughter pays 50,000 a semester so she can graduate in debt for life, whilst earning a pittance? "

Oh, I see, she was talking about 50,000 pesos?

I manipulated nothing. You seem the one who is manipulating it to fit your assumptions.

[basselope]

103. Your claim is false.

Either you are being intentionally dishonest or are really not bright.

I will break it down for you.

You claimed "A Bernie supporter said that she wants Bernie because her daughter is racking up $50,000 a semester in student debt."

But, what the poster ACTUALLY said was

Yeah, 19 trillion ONLY if we allow big pharma and the healthcare industry to continue and gouge us. Perhaps we can tell them we will only pay them what they charge for the same drugs and/or service in Canada? I pay 600 a month for an insurance premium, plus I pay all medical expenses out of my own pocket, because I have never reached the 6000.00 deductible. Did I mention the mandatory 89/month for dental insurance, or that my daughter pays 50,000 a semester so she can graduate in debt for life, whilst earning a pittance? So please, don't even go there. Our taxes will never exceed what we pay in healthcare and education in this country.

The vast majority of their post was about HEALTHCARE. The education cost offered (obviously a gross exaggeration) was an aside to the actual issue. The poster never said they are voting for Bernie because of their daughter's 50K per semester, but the FOCUS of their post is on HEALTHCARE and the fact that the increase in taxes will not exceed the savings in health care costs.. which is true.


So, you misrepresented the entire post by focusing on something that wasn't even the subject.

[itsrobert]

105. Oh please

So her claim about the $50,000 a semester cost has nothing to do with her support? So why bring it up?


Get real. Just stop it.

[basselope]

107. It's not the point of the post, and you know it.

The entire post is about HEALTHCARE. Tuition is brought up as an aside.

You knew that, but you posted the clip in an attempt to create a false argument.

[Urchin]

92. Marva Collins

Marva Collins made scholars and successful adults out of students the conventional education system rejected as absolutely incorrigible.

And she did it on a shoestring with books and desks from dumpsters.

The only reason higher ed costs so much, is because it's so easy for students to borrow huge sums to pay for tuition.

And what do the schools do with all that dough? Hire a sports coach for a few million a year, put saunas into student dorms, etc.

Meanwhile, they pay starvation wages to adjunct professors to do most of the teaching.

[Alex4Martinez]

102. "A Bernie supporter said..." Cool Story Bro.

No link, no name of this supposed college, it sounds like another case of a Bernie hater making up stories, this person you spoke with.

She's not very bright. And I'm not sure how useful it is to even bring it us as if it's a true account from her.

I suppose we do have some discussion, so that's good.

But a bit of research could have cleared this up. Bernie's plan wouldn't cover $50,000 semester colleges.

[itsrobert]

104. Link was posted twice already in thread

Why not read the full thread before posting?