2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWV looks good for Sanders
http://usa2016elections.com/west-virginia-no-longer-clinton-country/Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Hmmm.....I wonder why....
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)that is akin to the likes of Hitler?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)plenty of disdain to go around between those two. And, you can't deny that Sanders is pushing the hatred/fear; again, maybe not as much as Trump.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)It has an ugly side
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)Trump though is part of it, and I don't believe for a second he'll try do anything about it
do you like US citizens losing jobs because companies want to pay pennies to the dollar for labor?
what "hatred" and "fear" do you speak of....towards the elite class that Clinton represents?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)to people in other countries either. There are tens of millions of jobs that have not been displaced. Sorry, we might live in America, but we are just a small part of the world. And, an improving their world will help us all.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)but that isn't the intention of what corporations are doing here....that's a sorry excuse for the establishments position on globalization.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)they view them as scabs/competition . Profits or not, corporations - and many of them are not US based corporations - offer a future, even if not to our standards at first. The only thing we gave Vietnam before is fire bombs. Pretty much same for Latin Americans.
Urchin
(248 posts)You think giving those people a technological civilization like ours is doing them a favor?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)a point though. I'd be glad to go back to my grandad's 1950's small farm, outhouse and all. Most folks here wouldn't be happy with that.
"Civilized" man nearly destroyed himself and the world in the Cuban Missle Crisis (which catastrophe we now realize we avoided by pure luck, though for a few decades afterward, we thought we avoided it by clever use of carefully calculated escalating threats during the crisis).
Now, so many decades later, the threat of nuclear annihilation still hangs over us, with an increasing threat of nuclear terrorism added to nuclear war.
We have global climate change.
We have superbugs which our use of antibiotics have created.
We are on the threshold of replacing at least 40% of workers with technology, with nothing for those replaced people to do but to become wards of the state, with no hope of ever bettering themselves, no matter how hard they are willing to work or how fast they are willing to work or how much knowledge they acquire through how many years of study.
And not many years later, many of the remaining workers will be replaced with no new jobs to employ them (unless the government invents some kind of make work--maybe we could pay people to build pyramids again or dig ditches then fill the ditches up again).
The factory farm food we eat slowly poisons us, those of us who still have jobs, are increasingly driven to work like slaves to keep those jobs (average hunter gatherer worked 4 hours a day, and almost certainly had fun doing it--until the world became too overpopulated).
We are, thanks to technology, in a world where NONE OF US can be certain to have a livelihood tomorrow. So whatever money we make now, each of us should be saving every penny.
We have poisoned the water, earth and air. We have poisoned the ocean.
Each new generation of technology is invented mostly to cure the problems caused by the previous generations of technology.
And each new generation of technology requires exponentially more effort to develop, until there will come a time when it will do more damage or cost more money to create a new technology, than the damage and costs from the problem you want that new technology to cure.
If thanks to technology we destroy civilization--who would have proved smarter: industrial man or the handful of "primitive" rainforest hunter-gatherer still extant?
The rainforest dwellers would be better equipped to survive the self-destruction of civilization than would industrial man.
And if industrial man destroys all human life on earth or even all life on earth--on some other planet or planets there will likely be non-industrial lifeforms, who will continue to go about the business of surviving, reproducing, and evolving.
Over billions of years of life on earth, a species with our ability to industrialize is a complete anomaly.
Even cockroaches will likely outlast us.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)For people like Clinton, hiring that cheaper foreign labor can be written off as doing a global charity and now you get to feel good about yourself.
If you happen to work as a maid, yes you are a bit less enthusiastic about that plan. They get to have a race to the bottom, and probably loose their jobs.
But hey, you get cheap services AND you get to feel good and tell yourself you did a good thing. And that's what Liberalism has become, feeling morally superior while conveniently enriching yourself.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)We didn't exactly come up with a plan for employment for all that deindustrialized workers and the middle class and lower classes.
I mean great, the wealthy creative professionals in Silicon Valley have cheap maids, and can get a coffee for a pittance, and you know its sure helped uberize other parts of labor, but it has left a lot of people out of this new economic order.
Is it any wonder we write them off and they look for answers elsewhere. It isn't like you give a shit about them.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Don't kid yourself. Even Sweden, you can find elite people benefiting from their Alleged Humanitarianism in that it inflates housing prices and keeps wages lower.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Everyone and everything including my boss looking to replace me with a piece of software.
Don't kid yourself.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Ann Coulter also believes the sky is blue, that doesn't make it not blue for lefties.
If you increase the pool of labourers you decrease the relative value of workers, it keeps wages low. And since Hillary is against Welfare, Free Health Care or College and will never go for a Min. Income.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)a threat to you job and fodder for taking out hatred on. I hope you change.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)The fact is increased labour devalues labour relatively in a capitalist economy. That is just a fact.
I dare you to point out "Hatred." there.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)JPnoodleman
(454 posts)So wanting to help the poor folks in our country now equals HATING someone?
What are you trying to accuse me of?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)everything out to you in detali? Get some sleep and try to think how you'd feel if you were a poor person from Mexico who came here for a better life at great risk or a Vietnamese who remembers the USA for their fire bombs.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)I would hope her first concern is the American public.
Also the Vietnamese? Right Fire Bombed by Kissingers directives, that Kissinger whom is Hillary's good friend.
Or Mexico, ruined by NAFTA which her wretch of a Husband who did it.
Urchin
(248 posts)to fixing the rest of thew world after we fix ourselves, and we are a long way from that.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Urchin
(248 posts)Our country is an organization to first and foremost promote the welfare of its own citizens.
Otherwise, why bother having a country?
Urchin
(248 posts)Americans can only afford the very unhealthy food produced by industrial factory farms.
And while the slow poison that is sugar (includes corn syrup, refined sugar, cane sugar, fruit juices, and more too numerous to list), wouldn't be hard to remove from processed foods, removal of wheat and related grains, potatoes (including sweet potatoes and yams), meat raised on unnatural diets, including most or all farmed fish, beef, poultry and other disease causing "foods" would leave most Americans hard-pressed to afford the remaining healthy foods.
I make a good living, but buying a porterhouse steak from a grass fed AND finished animal is a minor hardship. The tree nuts I eat are also too expensive for most Americans.
Americans can only afford to eat, because they are eating cheap to produce foods that are slowly killing them.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)can afford to pay the prices we'd pay if we got all our farm products from small organic farmers. There'd be a lot of shortages too.
If people would pay for organically grown products, we'd have them -- instead you have a little section of the store with organic products at high prices.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #6)
Name removed Message auto-removed
k8conant
(3,030 posts)voted for Obama in 2008 and will vote for Sanders in 2016
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)So turned off that they embraced Hillary in overwhelming numbers in 2008 even though they're clearly not that into her.
Hmmm......
k8conant
(3,030 posts)but there're a lot of right-wing racists in WV (not as many in the Eastern Panhandle where I live).
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)Although Sanders is doing better than Hillary against Trump, they both can just forget about it. Trump/Hillary +27, Trump/Sanders +21. draw your own conclusions why the repuppies do so well there, but the dems are feeling the Bern!!!
dlwickham
(3,316 posts)and the reason she's losing this time around is because she is seen as Obama's successor and will continue his policies especially in clean energy areas
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)but now that race isn't an issue, i'm guessing they are now sexist too?
k8conant
(3,030 posts)dsc
(52,147 posts)she has embraced Obama and they still loathe him. Obama only got 70 percent in the primary in 2012 against a person who was campaigning from a jail cell.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)so it's completely unlikely at all that more voters like Sanders policy positions, and it's about Dem racists that don't like Clinton bear hugging Obama this time around?
dsc
(52,147 posts)who spent no money and didn't campaign at all against a sitting President who just happens to be black it is a bit hard to escape that conclusion.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)oh i forgot, because she's pretending she's Obama 2 this time
that's how racist Dems are WV
dsc
(52,147 posts)and that helped her where Obama is popular and hurt her where he isn't. He isn't popular in WV, that much I think even you would agree with. I think that a big part of the why he isn't popular there is because of his race. If I were running a race in WV, the very last person I would embrace is Obama.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)but I don't buy that with Clinton
we'll have to agree to disagree
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)If your claiming all of those voters are in the Klan, why would they vote for Jewish guy?
dsc
(52,147 posts)I am sure some do, but probably many don't. Also being anti black doesn't make one anti Jew any more than being pro black would necessarily make one pro Jew. The simple face is that Obama lost a fifth of the vote in the primary to a felon in prison in 2012, that speaks volumes and it ain't pretty. Sure some of his support is really support for him. But frankly some of this support is outright, irrational hatred of Obama.
JPnoodleman
(454 posts)Being racist is being racist, if you believe they hate black people so much that they hate someone for having a black friend I cannot see that sort of person supporting a Jewish person.
NewImproved Deal
(534 posts)Race-baiting against working-class Whites is not only acceptable in the Klinton Kamp, but fashionable...
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)That WV will only vote for white people because they are a predominately white state?
Is that what you mean? It sure sounds that way.
reddread
(6,896 posts)that and projecting
dsc
(52,147 posts)over Obama in the 2012 primary.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)Pew Research Study 2016
Self-Described
Whites: 50% Liberal, 36% Moderate, 12% Conservative
Blacks: 42% Moderate, 29% Conservative, 27% Liberal
Hispanics: 39% Moderate, 35% Liberal, 24% Conservative
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/09/democratic-voters-increasingly-embrace-liberal-label/
The good thing is, both AA's and Latino's are increasingly moving towards the left
but what was your point?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Well done...
Recursion
(56,582 posts)We don't need a conspiracy theory to explain why the most liberal candidate has trouble with the least liberal bloc of the party.
Now, many campaigns would see that and try to do something to gain those votes, rather than blaming them for holding the opinions they do...
We aren't just the party of white liberals, and the fact that Sanders didn't seem to grasp that should be the first line of the campaign post-mortem.
thebeautifulstruggle
(95 posts)because many candidates pander to differ groups in order to get votes
i prefer mine just tell it like it is regardless of the group
Urchin
(248 posts)What are you implying?
Logical
(22,457 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Only minorities and colored do. It's a new world...it's a new kid of racism.
Kokonoe
(2,485 posts)Gotta get that fixed before the reelection.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Cal33
(7,018 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Sanders strength is among people between the ages of 18 and 34.
The key, of course, for Sanders is a high turnout with young voters, while Clintons support is generally older, those with a college degree or post-graduate degree and upper income Democrats, Repass said.
The poll numbers included registered party members along with unaffiliated voters most likely to choose a particular partys ballot. The sample size was 315 for Democrats and 228 for Republicans, Repass Research officials said, with an overall statistical error size of +/-4.0 percentage points.
http://wvmetronews.com/2016/05/06/overwhelming-support-for-trump-lead-for-sanders-in-metronews-west-virginia-poll/
=========
Not nearly good enough to change anything. He gains a couple delegates maybe.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Very little opportunity for Bernie to gain on Hillary's pledged delegate lead. They'll both get delegates from WV. But there aren't many to go around, so it won't have much effect.
He might gain about 5 delegates from that election. No help.
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Here are some important points made by Black Lives Matter Activist Ashley Williams:
Here's the truth: the Clinton legacy has left our prisons bursting at the seams. Real lives have been destroyed as a result. It is an indisputable fact that millions of Black people were locked up for drug crimes and provided the bodies for the expansion of the prison industry.
The 1994 Crime Bill that she so vigorously defended not only expanded incarceration, but stripped funding for college education from prisoners. The Clinton legacy allowed for policies that prevented anyone convicted of a felony drug offense from receiving food stamps or income assistance. Clinton-led welfare reform fundamentally ripped apart the social safety net.
Make no mistake, Hillary Clinton's efforts to push these policies resulted in the continued destruction of Black communities and the swift growth of our mass incarceration crisis.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)She was not in office in 94 and St Bernie voted for the crime bill. He voted for it...first ladies don't vote.
April 21, 1994, HR 4092 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 Bill Passed - House
(285 - 141) Yea Bernie's vote. He voted Yea...So I guess Bernie is just another pol voting for his self-interest.
IN fact, Sander is the only presidential candidate who did vote for it...neither Clinton nor O'Malley voted for it. So who is to blame partially...he also had defended it this year...
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...which does matter. I think it's wrong to hold it as a negative for Sanders if comparing the two on it because, like you said, she couldn't vote on it.
Yes, he voted for the bill...but if you stop there it sounds horrible. You have to listen to what he was saying about it, at the time (not 20 years later like Hillary) and how he wouldn't vote for it if it wasn't wrapped up with gun regulations and the Violence Against Women Act. Let me ask you: Should he have voted against women?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Last edited Sat May 7, 2016, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)
that pertained to the harsh sentencing that was supported by the Clintons. You can see him on youtube arguing against.
The House version of the Crime Bill included a ban on semi-automatic assault weapons. Sanders had supported the ban since 1988. The conference committee version included not only the assault weapons ban but also the Violence Against Women Act provisions. Sanders supported these efforts to protect women. Shame on that try to smear him.
As far as Hillary Clinton let's review what Black Lives Matters has to say about her:
The policies that she pushed filled the Prisons For Profits that in turn were very generous to her. Did she personally profit from these "tough" policies? Do her followers believe toughness is more important than empathy?
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)(1991-1999), Balto. Mayor, Gov. of MD and never in the US Congress or Senate.
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)logical, steady and fearless. An accomplished activist leader who will go far.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)very white state.
Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #12)
TM99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)of US President and a wealthy New Yorker elected President four times. It was the 1960 WV Primary that got JFK the Democratic Party nomination for which he was always grateful. FDR was revered there for decades, generations and for good reason.
spinbaby
(15,088 posts)And the coal miners are not going to forget or forgive Hillary her statement about putting them out of work.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)Coal mining is history...more expensive to mine than the coal is worth. And it is an ecological nightmare...Trying to provide better jobs in WVA is the way to go which Clinton is suggesting. Sanders is merely pandering as usual.
floppyboo
(2,461 posts)Please provide a link. This is HUGE news to me! Such accusations if true could really break the Bernie meme of honest. Or are you just pulling shit out of sky?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)And BOTH support education and job-retraining to get them into new jobs. What a BS argument.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)What she meant to say was "a lot of coal miners are going to be out of work IF THINGS CONTINUE THE WAY THEY'RE GOING."
You know, if we keep moving away from fossil fuels, like we have under the Obama administration.
It's Obama you should be angry at, not Hillary.
Hillary loves coal and Hillary loves coal miners.
It was a simple slip of the tongue.
You have to understand this!
Well, at least 51% of you have to understand this!
And at least 51% of Californians a week later have to understand that she misspoke when she clarified her misspeaking.
Can't a girl get a break?
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)sweetloukillbot
(10,961 posts)/sarcasm
Zynx
(21,328 posts)It's a small prize.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)He needs to be winning races by 30 points, not 7 or 8. He gets further from the nomination every state.
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)"La-La-La-La-La - I can't HEAR YOU!"
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But strangely appropriate.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)Anything else is a failure.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)Don't talk about race. This is a state and he has won plenty of them!
And he will win more.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Once!
k8conant
(3,030 posts)it's beautiful here on the Blue Ridge next to the Shenandoah!
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Hello from a latter-day Morgan, next door near the border in Maryland.
I'll be pulling for you guys to crush Hillary next Tuesday!
I'm disappointed that we couldn't do the same, but I got such a feeling of well-being from voting for Bernie anyway unlike any vote in my lifetime, and I hope you find it so too!
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)glad you posted it. Born in Logan, raised in Huntington and lived in Morning Morgantown briefly. Long ties to the state which was my rock, a prime foundation in life like family. How I wish a person(s) like Bernie could help WV and Appalachia like he did rural Vermont over years, a tall order but larger things have happened and time is moving fast. The same for our once great, now deindustrialized cities across the US in serious decline and needing major renewal.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)what little I've seen, Harper's Ferry, Shepherdstown, Martinsburg and a bit of Greenbrier Co. When young we visited relatives in Detroit, great US city.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)and I attended a conference there in the 90s. Special place.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)and my oldest brother worked there in the summer during college in the 1960s.
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)How did you get to WV if you don't mind the question?
k8conant
(3,030 posts)and figured WV was the closest place I could afford to live. Besides, I'd been to Harpers Ferry when I was 7 and liked it.
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)I like what I've seen of Kessler who also supports Bernie but he's up against estab. and big money Dems. and then there's Cole.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)Jim Justice is DINO (ex-Republican big business).
Booth Goodwin is so-so establishment dem.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)Nyan
(1,192 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)(If I'm not in the poster's ignore list, I bet I make it there quickly)
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)"La la la I can't hear you" Whats up with that? I like to know what people think even if I don't agree with them. No ignores here.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)I have to commend them for catching on to the sell-out schtick a lot quicker than many others.
The town of Logan even told them both they weren't welcome, to please leave. I've never heard of that before.
That was a very good article you linked, thanks.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)MFM008
(19,803 posts)Nyan
(1,192 posts)The news is that Bernie's leading, but all they talk about is Clinton and what she did wrong. How about "Bernie's message resonating in WV"? It's really not about her. The election's supposed to be about the people.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)My, you have been a busy little beaver.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Red states don't count.