Something I don't understand, please explain if you can

[Cary]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Goblinmonger (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

One of the people here who attacks me for not being enough of a Bernie supporter was kind enough to admit to me that he/she was not a Democrat. This person never votes Democratic. This person will not be voting Democratic unless Bernie is nominated.

I do not know if this person will vote Democratic down ballot if Bernie is elected, but then this person would not know whether Bernie is elected when voting in November.

See I get yet another three or four questions just writing this. I am now rather confused with the dynamics of this as the down ballot is maybe even more important than winning the White House.

As I sit here I am an all in Democrat and for the life of me I cannot understand why any thoughtful, caring person would be otherwise. I just came from my train ride listening to aging white people talking about how Trump is going roll over Bernie or Hillary. They are so ridiculous and uninformed that I can't even discuss politics with them, and it is pretty much just as bad with Bernie supporters who apparently are as much Democrats as the Trump cultists on my train ride.

None of this makes any sense to me, especially since Trump supporters are lucky if they are 40% of a 40% party, and people who vote neither Democratic nor Republican are what? The majority here at DemocraticUnderground? Meaning what, exactly?

Someone is overdue for a comeuppance, and I don't think it's going to be mainstream Democrats such as myself. I could be wrong, that is always possible, but my confidence is high even if I am a little confused by present conditions.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

1. Just like all the Rand Paul supporters. I think many of those same people weren't really Dems.

I wonder if some of those same people are Bernie stans.

[BillZBubb]

2. Sanders is bringing potential new voters to the party.

Particularly young people. So, they don't have much of a voting history. I'm sure a lot of them have joined DU. They are looking for a political home and Sanders' positions attract them. No doubt a lot of them are brash.

I assume since they are for Sanders, that bothers "mainstream" people like yourself. The fact that you think Sanders supporters need a "comeuppance" says a lot about you.

[pinebox]

10. You're 50% right

Many of us aren't young but many of us are indy voters who are progressive and who see the Dem party as completely corrupt. The only reason I switched to Dem was to caucus for Bernie. I'm an Indy Green. Will I stick around in the Dem party? Honestly, doubtful. Too much pandering to the right and too much politics in politics for me.

[Cary]

13. Thanks for the 100% honest post.

I respect that more than your 50% compatriot. I do not begrudge you your "Indy Green," not that you need my approval for it you most certainly do not.

However I do find more than a little hypocrisy in "indy voters who are progressive and who see the Dem party as completely corrupt" supporting a candidate for the Democratic nomination. And if you're not going to support other Democrats then you're pretty much looking to put Bernie Sanders in an untenable and impractical position.

Or do you have a better explanation?

[pinebox]

26. No hypocricy

I myself switched to Dem only to caucus for Bernie because for once we have a real chance at getting a true progressive elected.
Define "impractical positions" please because to me, the only thing impractical is letting the system continue which has absolutely leveled and destroyed the middle class & myself and millions more see Hillary as part of that very problem.

Bernie has given us a voice, finally someone who stands up for US. He fights for us and isn't worried about Walmart but rather the American people. Hillary, no she isn't and she changes her position on every single thing that comes up. She is part of the problem we face just like how she can't even #FightFor15. It's sad. She tried to appease Republicans, the very people who want to destroy her. Bernie on the other hand doesn't give 2 shits what they want and he doesn't care. While Hillary is busy fighting Republicans, Bernie is fighting for us.

Look at DU as example, people are honestly upset because Bernie criticized Obama. I have a big issue with that and that says it all IMHO. Out politicians SHOULD be held accountable, regardless of which party they serve. Honesty and integrity is the best policy, always, and Bernie shoots straight. That's why so many love him. Hillary? She never ever has.

[Cary]

29. Our president is not powerful

Congress makes the laws. If you put the man in a position where he has no one else behind him he will get absolutely nothing done.

[pinebox]

30. Sure agreed

BUT the POTUS is powerful. How powerful? Right now Obama could do a recess SCOTUS appointment.
Will he? Nope.

[Cary]

34. And you think you're doing what about that, exactly?

[pinebox]

41. Why does this come down to me? I'm curious

You asked me some questions and I answered and you now you want to make this about me & question MY credentials? Which happen to be none of your business. A tad personal don't you think on an internet message board.

I answered the questions which you had.

I'll throw you some food for thought.

Why should I support a party who has 89 senators that voted to gut SNAP? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/1/29/1273428/-These-89-Democrats-Voted-to-Cut-8-7-Billion-from-Food-Stamps
Why should I support a party who signed welfare reform into law?
Why should I support a candidate who voted for Iraq?
Why should I support a party who for decades hurt LGBT rights?
Why should I support a candidate who is constantly changing her opinion on everything?

Why why why? WHY.

Yet I switched to Dem to caucus for a Dem candidate.
You should be thankful. Without us Indy's, Dems would never see the White House. We're the biggest of the bunch and they are firmly in the corner of Bernie.

Think about it.

You want me and millions of others to stick around under your circus tent? Start acting like Dems and not Dempublicans!
My vote and support is earned, not blindly given.

[Cary]

45. I am supposed to be thankful?

My only agenda is to try to understand. You don't have to answer anything.

I find it odd that you're seeking some kind of affirmation.

[pinebox]

47. I don't seek your affirmation

Nor do I need it.

If you want to understand, look at the millions who are being crushed under the weight of student loan debt. Are you aware that US Marshal's arrested someone in Houston for having outstanding student loans? We have enslaved an entire generation to debt.

People are fed up. Hillary's plan for college education doesn't go far enough. Making it more affordable isn't making it free which would alleviate student loan debt all together.

The corporations got a bail out. What about the millions of people who can't even buy anything because they have defaulted on their loans? And for many it was no fault of their own.

Sorry man but Hillary is part of the problem for many of us and we see both parties as busted.

[Cary]

12. No, this person made a definite statement.

This person is not a Democrat and seems to me to be opposed to the whole idea of the Democratic Party.

You assume wrongly. I really don't mind at all if Bernie Sanders wins and can effect Democratic policies. I have stated this many times. I will support the Democratic nominee and I vote Democratic and that is why I consider myself to be mainstream, no quotes. And I support Democratic policies. You would be hard pressed to call me anything else.

I will criticize Democrats but not anywhere near as readily as the person to whom I refer.

"They" are looking for a home? That in and of itself is fine, but when one comes into my home they need to have certain manners. Don't you think?

Like changing the subject from whatever it is to me, personally. That kind of evasion is a cheap, low level ploy, as in: "The fact that you think Sanders supporters need a "comeuppance" says a lot about you." I am frequently imploring people who lower themselves this way to start their own "Cary Sucks" thread. Go for it.

I stand by my prediction, not as you misrepresented it but rather as I clearly stated it in plain English: someone is overdue for a comeuppance. I don't think it will be me or my fellow mainstream Democrats. It will be individuals who are too full of themselves, without humility, who think they can insult people and then try to convince their victims that it is their own fault that they are being insulted.

If the shoe fits "BilZBubb" ....

[kcr]

3. I have wondered sometimes, too

There are posters on DU who have never seemed all that progressive who are all about Bernie and are quick to attack those who aren't. I just scratch my head at his appeal for them and it makes me wonder if it's more about the attacking. I think those who are more genuine are the ones who find the attacks distasteful, and talk more about the issues.

[Andy823]

8. I agree

A lot of our old time Obama haters never did seem to be actually progressives, liberals, or Democrats, they just loved to attack Obama, claim he accomplished "NOTHING", was just like Nixon, Republican light, etc. They didn't like any politician who didn't fit in their purity mold. They wanted to "purge" the party of all those who they didn't like, and now they lead the charge against anyone who doesn't like Bernie by using the same tactics on Hillary, trash and Bash.

I like the "real" supporters of Bernie who actually, as you said, talk about the issues instead of posting thread after thread of how terrible Hillary is, or how terrible Bill is even though he isn't even running. Between the old time anti Obama crowd and the new right wing trolls that seem to show up on a daily basis to join in the bashing, one has to wonder just what their real agenda is. It certainly doesn't look like they want to see any Democrat in the WH, that's for sure.

[TTUBatfan2008]

9. Some of Obama's...

...biggest critics on the left were the very people that got his campaign off the ground in the first place. Call them too idealistic if you want, but he disappointed them and you can't blame it all on the GOP. One of his first appointments was Tim Geithner, a signal to everyone on the left that Obama likely would not go after Wall Street as much as people hoped/expected.

[Cary]

14. Very few and very far between

But my "conservative" acquaintances are keen on trying to convince me of this. One was trying to rub PBO's alleged "unpopularity" in my face in just that way this morning. The fact of the matter is that PBO has always had a high approval rating among Democrats, who understand that the Republican strategy is to obstruct and then claim that PBO isn't doing anything.

This is my biggest concern and biggest grievance against the nonsense that I encounter here at DU. It is sowing discord and discontent for no real reason other than to discourage Democrats from voting. I can understand this coming from Republicans because they can't win without voter suppression and gerrymandering. But I do not understand this from people who, by their own admission, will vote for Bernie Sanders and no other Democrat just because of their own prejudices against our party.

The reason I am confused by these persons is coming into focus for me. I can't find sense in this because there is no sense in cognitive dissonance.

[TTUBatfan2008]

17. Very few and far in between?

Really? Are you suggesting Obama has received almost zero criticism from the left? That's simply not true. He is not God and I've seen plenty of fair criticism of him from the left. The Republicans of course have been a bunch of obstructionist thugs since Day 1.

[Cary]

18. Of the kind of stuff we saw here at DU?

Yes, very few and very far between. Except here, for some reason.

[TTUBatfan2008]

19. I've seen Maddow and others...

on TV make very fair criticisms of policies that he supports, like TPP. Matter of fact a bunch of elected Democrats in Congress are against him on that one too. I guess they are all a bunch of extremist right wingers in disguise, eh?

[Cary]

21. Sure, and I tried to tell Norman Goldman in an e-mail that a third party is a bad idea

He has since backtracked on that although I have not heard him own it.

Rachel Maddow has not been over the line as far as I can tell.

[TTUBatfan2008]

22. Is Hillary over the line?

She is against TPP as well. Again, he is not God and he has made plenty of policy mistakes that don't line up with liberal ideals.

[Cary]

25. I'm not sure what you're asking

Our parties are coalition parties. I regard "conservatives" as crazy and stupid, and the Republican Party as venal and craven. I'm not going to hold Democrats to a standard of perfection. Nor am I going to hold our system to that standard.

We do what we can. Politics is the art of the possible. I am not in lock-step with anyone.

I am not sure that answers your question but I am a left leaning moderate. I believe in compromise. I believe in our system. I believe in good government.

Go ahead and tear that apart. My "conservative" acquaintance tells me that I am as radical and as extreme as one can be so it is possible I guess to accuse me of that.

And ironically "over the line" isn't that much different than my view. It's more like Pinebox's approach where nothing is ever going to be enough. There is a term for over the line, too: emoprogs. That is my opinion.

[TTUBatfan2008]

28. This is just my two cents...

Corporate corruption in politics is unacceptable no matter which party is doing it. I am not saying this from a liberal perspective, I am saying it as a citizen of the country who wants the people to be fairly represented by their elected officials instead of the elected officials choosing to work for corporate interests instead.

Teddy Roosevelt said corporations should not be allowed to donate to political campaigns. This is not some radical idea. I believe even the most moderate person on issues like health care and so forth can agree that the corporations should not be controlling our elected officials like puppets.

Unfortunately nothing will be done to fix this.

[Cary]

31. I don't like it any more than you do

But I have to work with what I have. We all do. As I said politics is the art of the possible. Ideology is fine but you must balance ideology with practicality, tradition, culture, ...

But if you're going to talk ideology I would like it if everyone forgot ideology and came together and identified common goals and worked toward effecting those goals. That would be wonderful. We could do many great things.

Alas, I am a dreamer.

[treestar]

51. i just don't believe that

it's not human nature. The harder one worked for Obama, the less likely they would be to be in the "disappointed" crowd. You invest in something that much - you don't throw it aside so easily.

[TTUBatfan2008]

52. It's not easy...

The Geithner decision was just the first of many. It doesn't mean someone dislikes the guy. I still like him a lot and admire how he has stood up to Republican obstructionism in the last few years. I just don't agree with a number of his policies. Sanders has a lot of supporters that went hard for Obama in '08 but aren't exactly pretending the POTUS is perfect today. Even a lot of Democrats in Congress are against TPP for instance.

[whatchamacallit]

4. Explain what?

There doesn't seem to be a clear question in that jumble.

[Cary]

15. Ah yes, there is always that ploy.

Plenty of people understand my question. You don't have to understand it. You have my permission.

[TTUBatfan2008]

5. The two-party system...

...is a big problem. Both are primarily controlled by corporate interests. It's why the GOP wants to do nothing on climate change and it's also why the current administration did not prosecute Wall Street. People of all stripes are getting fed up with it. Voting for the lesser of two evils just doesn't feel right.

[RiverLover]

7. It doesn't. I want to vote FOR something.

Voting for the lesser of two evils just doesn't feel right.

[morningfog]

6. You had a discussion with one DUer. Purely anecdotal and not indicative of much more than that one

person. Even if you accept what you were told was the truth.

The vast majority of Bernie supporters are Democrats.

[Cary]

16. I agree that a vast majority are Democrats. I'm not referring to them.

And I would bet you dollars to donuts that the vast majority aren't attacking me.

[Cary]

20. And by the way I did not proffer my anecdote for any kind of statistical proof of anything

I did generalize. I mean one must do that to some extent but it's fair to say that this particular person was representative of a certain faction. See Pinebox above.

[Festivito]

11. Rs hold media and think tanks that feed media.

Their message is big lies. (Nazis taught us the bigger the lie the better.) Think tanks feed the media: radio, TV, papers, websites with similar stories. So, people hear stories from several sources. This confirms it in their heads.

Bernie's honesty cuts through some of this. Not all of it. That would take more hours than in a single speech.

So, we have influx of people who have a hodgepodge of things they KNOW are bad - even though it is they who are wrong -- wrangling their way through DU.

They have no idea how big the lie is. And, no amount of splain'n is going to get through to them.

[elana i am]

23. the long and short of it.

i didn't leave the party, the party left me.
the end.

[cali]

24. You don't understand why any thoughtful, caring person isn't a democrat?

I'm assuming that's your central question. Speaking only of myself, I'll try to explain. For 40 years, I identified as a Democrat. I originally registered as a Democrat. (Vermont doesn't register voters by party). This year, I changed how I identified; I now identify as an independent, joining tens of millions of other voters. There are, btw, more independents than either republicans or Democrats.

Why? The Democratic Party, as they say,left me. More precisely, it shoved me and millions of others aside. It has long treated the left dismissively, and even contemptuously. Even worse, the Party has become far too in thrall to corporate money and influence.

I don't always vote dem in local elections. Vermont has a viable, vibrant and growing third party, the Vermont Progressive Party.

I have never been a Clinton Democrat. I think they successfully triangulated the Party to the right.

[Cary]

27. What have you done for the Democratic Party?

Of course you don't have to do anything for the Democratic Party but if you're not a Democrat then why should the Democratic Party, whatever that may be, care about you?

I don't know whether you (and I am using that term loosely, sorry) amount to millions. I do know that the Democratic Party has won, and won big, without "you." I am as confident as I can be that we don't need "you." In other words I think "you" marginalize yourselves and then you complain that you're treated accordingly?

I do consider you to be a thinking person and your response was thoughtful, thank you. But I don't see how you win with this.

And I don't see how you eliminate corporate influence, ever. I'm not saying that's good. It's clearly gone too far as has the insane concentration of wealth in this nation. But it's always going to be there, or at least until capitalism is no longer viable.

That may happen, by the way. We continue to increase our capacity to produce more and more goods and services with fewer and fewer people, and that's increasing at an exponential rate. That's revolutionary change but I cannot say where the tipping point may be.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Whereas, the Democratic Party has lost and lost big with me.

In '72, '80, '84, '88, 2000, 2004, in the presidential elections. And, other times down ticket when I voted Democratic.

[Cary]

35. Lost you to what?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. I was referring to the times they lost when I voted for them.

But, I think you knew that.

[Cary]

55. No actually I did not

And I fail to see why you mention that. Please explain.

[cali]

50. Over the years I've given thousands of dollars

including to the DNC. I've canvassed and phone banked for dem candidates. I've stuffed envelopes and weird as this sound, I've cooked up a storm for volunteers. (I love to cook for a crowd).

If you don't think the dem party needs me and those like me (and I'm confident that we do number in the millions) you are woefully wrong. I do know the Democratic Party has lost and lost big. I also know it has never won without me. As I noted in my first response, I just stopped identifying as a democrat.

I have never marginalised myself. Let me repeat loudly since you are determined to ignore what I wrote in my original post. I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A DEMOCRAT UNTIL THIS YEAR.

I have never said you could eliminate corporate money.but you could come damn close. And if you don't know how, then you haven't bothered even a little bit, to familiarize yourself with the subject. That is a clear indication that it is not a high priority for you. And no, income inequality of the dramatic kind we see today is not written in stone. And it sure as hell doesn't take the demise of capitalism to do it. History would be instructive to you.

I have said I think, very unfortunately, that Clinton will be the nominee. I've said for years and years that it's likely she'll lose.

But you don't need me.

Huge Fail.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Is this one of those "real" Democrats....questions?

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. John Quincy Adams

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson

[Cary]

37. I guess that depends on your perspective.

Do I think you are a real Democrat? I would have to say you are not but that's not particularly meaningful.

What are you? Why should I care?

FTR I don't see Bernie having much of a chance. I will support him if he is the nominee but since he's not going to be the nominee I'm looking past that. I am looking for Democrats to be elected so with that in mind it seems to me that you are, in the scheme of things, nothing. And it seems to me that I should not waste an ounce of energy caring.

But I am interested. Perhaps you can convince me otherwise?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. How "meaningful" is your vote. Will it decide the outcome of the election?

I'm looking for people who are fit to run the government. That leaves out Republicans and some Democrats.

I can't see wasting my energies, or vote, on 3rd Way, collaborationist Democrats.

[Cary]

46. Hillary will be the nominee where I live with or without my vote

Hmmm. Wasting your energies? That's what I'm trying to understand. It seems to me that's all you're doing, wasting your energies. I'm asking you exactly that: what's the net result of your energies? Calling me names like "3rd Way?" Is that accomplishing anything?

I don't see your radicalism accomplishing anything.

[Armstead]

36. Your confusion is baffling -- here's a hint

It has been building for years. In some respects, it is chickens coming home to roost.

There are many people who are inherently in alignment with the Liberalism the Democratic Party claims to stand for -- and which it used to stand for a lot more.

But many older people have seen Clitionite Democratic Centrism jettison those liberal values in reality, both in individual moves and in general messages, behavior and attitude since around 1980..,..So they're disappointed, angry and have long felt frustrated at that change. ...They either are grudging "no other choice" Democrats or have gone independent or given up on politics altogether.

Younger people have only seen the results of the Centrist Democratic Party...and they don't like it. And they don't relate to the status quo......... And they do not have the memory of when Democrat actually meant liberal -- so there is no residual institutional loyalty.

You wanna see that fixed and changed? First of all try and understand WHY people see things the way they do, and why so many are turning to Sanders.

You want a stronger Democratic Party? You want to see more staunch and loyal Democrats?

Here's a hint for you (both uindividually and collectively)

Regardless of the outcome of the primary, stop ignoring and/or insulting, dismissing, marginalizing and mischaracterizing those who feel that way. Stop portraying them as the Left Fringe or the equivalent of the Tea Party or know-nothing Trumpeters.

That'd be a start.

[Cary]

40. "...stop ignoring and/or insulting, dismissing, marginalizing and mischaracterizing those who feel"

I see. It's my fault that you're disaffected, and that's made a lesser Democratic Party. I am insulting you by doing this. I am dismissing you. I make you marginal but when I consider you to be marginal it's not because you haven't done anything it's because I am mischaracterizing you.

Did I miss anything?

[Armstead]

43. Case in point..

"As I sit here I am an all in Democrat and for the life of me I cannot understand why any thoughtful, caring person would be otherwise. ..... They are so ridiculous and uninformed that I can't even discuss politics with them, and it is pretty much just as bad with Bernie supporters who apparently are as much Democrats as the Trump cultists on my train ride.

None of this makes any sense to me, especially since Trump supporters are lucky if they are 40% of a 40% party, and people who vote neither Democratic nor Republican are what? The majority here at DemocraticUnderground? Meaning what, exactly?

Someone is overdue for a comeuppance, and I don't think it's going to be mainstream Democrats such as myself."

[Cary]

56. Case in point what?

Do I need your approval to post?

[Armstead]

57. You asked a question I answered and gave an example

You don't need my approval for anything.

But don't whine and deflect when you don't like the answer to a question. Makes it more obvious that your "question" is more like "concern trolling."

[cali]

53. What do you think you did in your op and other posts in this thread?

You insulted people right off the bat and you haven't stopped.

[noretreatnosurrender]

48. Good Answer

I'm still a registered Democrat but I totally understand those who have left the Party out of disgust. I've watched year after year as my Party has not only moved to the right but tried to pretend that those of us who didn't move with them were crazy people. It's very depressing. I used to be heavily involved in campaigns but after getting an up close look at the lies and double dealing done against supporters I'm done working for ANY corporate Democrat. Never again. It is not in my interest to do so and it's not in my Party's interest to do so.

The corporate Democrats are KILLING our once glorious Party and those of us who recognize it are fighting against it any way we can. Some are doing it from within and some from without. The younger voters who are supporting Bernie should give the Party heartburn. This is our future and instead of embracing it our Party is trying to shame them (like they did us) and pretty much dissing them every chance they get. Good luck with that.

Edit: Forgot to say that it was pretty easy to see through the original post of this thread as you read through the thread. There was no "confusion" at all it was merely a ruse to attack people yet again. I've seen those kind of threads many times.

[kennetha]

39. True Colors of Many of the DU Sanders supporters coming out in this thread

No wonder it's impossible to have a rational discussion with so many of them.

[Cary]

42. Actually they are helping me

I wish they would help themselves because I think they need the help more than I do. But I'm listening and trying to understand a little better.

[noretreatnosurrender]

49. Right

We know what you're doing and it isn't listening.

You ever hear of Eddie Haskell?

[Fearless]

54. A link to this proported "attack"?

[Goblinmonger]

58. I'm locking this.

Thanks