Who is not committed to a primary candidate yet?

[seaglass]

I am probably not going to decide until my state primary Mar 1 and was wondering if anyone else has not committed yet.

Also do you find the posts in GDP for the most part to be helpful or unhelpful in making your decision?

[Stand and Fight]

1. Not committed.

I'm in Nevada. February 20th is the day for me.

I have observed one group of supporters who are far more rude than the other group. I like both candidates, but many of Candidate X's supporters are a bunch of snobby jerks. Not so sure I want to hang out with people engaged in a cult of personality and being jerks to fellow Democrats. And no... I won't say which candidate's supporters I'm talking about.

[seaglass]

13. Good luck on your choice. It probably is a good thing not to ID specific supporters. :-)

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

82. I can imagine which ones. They are turning a lot of voters off who would've considered voting for

Candidate X.

[Skidmore]

2. I voted already and it was posts here

which were very instrumental in getting me to reasses my early support for Sanders and to stand for Hillary on Monday. The candidates have moved on to other states but I will stand by my vote.

[seaglass]

10. The only thing posts here do for me is piss me off, I haven't found a whole lot that are objective

and only a very few that have been informative.

[Live and Learn]

70. Could you point us to a post of your early Sanders support?

My search didn't reveal any.

[dogman]

3. Waiting for my state also.

I've learned from the past. No matter how I feel about a candidate, it is usually over by the time I vote. Sadly, some of the posts here make me almost not want to vote. But you can find good and interesting info if you look for it.

[seaglass]

18. When's your primary? MA is fairly early though I have had preferred candidates drop out in the past

before we get to vote.

[dogman]

46. March 15

Illinois. Either drop out or no longer viable.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

85. My state is MD. O'Malley already left the race, but I considered supporting him because

the other two just ain't doing it for me.

But Maryland's primary is in April.

I love my congressional candidate, David Trone. And Donna Edwards is running against Chris Van Hollen for the U.S. Senate. I'll be supporting Donna 100%!!

[Chemisse]

4. I was uncommitted up until a couple of weeks ago.

And I found the posts to NOT be helpful. The reason is that they are nearly all posted to convince others to agree with supporting their candidate.

Since they are meant to be persuasive, they are not objective. That makes them almost worthless to me. When I see new info posted about either of the two candidates, I have to go to an objective news source to find out if it is being presented in an accurate way.

Another aspect I found to be unhelpful, is the intensity of the criticism toward the unfavored candidate, as well as that candidate's supporters. I found I was starting to gel a negative opinion of one of the candidates based on how obnoxious the person's supporters were! That's not a good way to decide, and I had to take a step back and stop looking at so many threads in GDP.

[seaglass]

8. Yes, there are a lot of falsehoods posted in GDP so it does mean taking those extra steps to

separate fact from fiction - offsite.

[LaydeeBug]

14. Spot on.

It gets a little intense. I had to stop and try to give a candidate another chance, because the vitriol was just too much.

[AllTooEasy]

20. K&R 1,000 times

This reply is worthy of being it's own post!

[Dem2]

58. Agreed

Negative attacks inevitably make me question the motives of said poster and to question the veracity of said attacks. So tired of exaggerated claims on both sides, it diminishes said poster's standing and insults Democrats generally IMO.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

83. If it becomes unbearable, consider trashing GDP. I did, and doing so has made this place a little

better.

[DFW]

5. I am not committed

Neither of the two major candidates has addressed an issue that is vital to me and about 6 million other Americans. Not a peep. I'm still waiting for that. Should nothing come by Texas primary time, I'll make my decision on what I've got to work with.

I find 80% of the posts (or more) in GDP to be shrill, anger-filled, insulting, and self-righteous in the extreme. None of them will sway my decision. Not helpful, but so unpleasant in nature as not to figure in my decision any more than would some teabagger whining about needing 50 guns in his house to protect him from our terrrrrist Muslim president. Indeed, I often wonder if such posts are not posted by the very same people looking to stir up trouble here.

[seaglass]

19. I'm intrigued about what issue is vital to you, are you willing to share? n/t

[DFW]

25. Sure, why not?

There are about 6 million of us posted abroad for various reasons (excluding military).

The USA, along with Eritrea, taxes its citizens regardless of residence. It is cumbersome, expensive (my accountants' fees are about $9000+ on EACH side of the Atlantic, and they still can't get it right), and very time-consuming. As there are ambiguities in the DTT (Double Taxation Treaty), my total (NOT marginal) income tax is hovering somewhere between 65% and 75% until it can be thrashed out what I owe where, and then have to plead (or sue) for a massive refund.

ALL other countries in the world, including Germany, have residence-based taxation. Normally, since I pay 51% or so (net, all in) income tax here in Germany (very low threshold to get there, too), the German tax I pay should cancel out the US tax under the treaty, but the US says some income (all of my income is in the USA) must be taxed there, and the Germans want to tax it, too, which puts me in the 89% bracket for that stuff.

It is long past time for the USA to join the rest of the world: http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mSs3Bbh7JWJl0Al44zCQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByaW11dnNvBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1454569436/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.americansabroad.org%2ffiles%2f6513%2f6370%2f3681%2ffinalsubrbtmarch2013.pdf/RK=0/RS=bbU_lBybLHvjMCVJoxhgsfeD2UE-

As it is, in Germany, for the privilege of paying 51% there, as well as the extra in the USA, I get zero health coverage and zero pension plan. Zilch. I would have to get "Private" health insurance. I got a quote from one of their agencies. Due to my pre-existing condition (it counts here), it would cost me €2500 a MONTH for health insurance here. That's over $33,000 a year. Reasonable, right? That's why I keep my Blue Cross in the States. They deny all claims, of course, but my out of pocket, even with the occasional operation, is nowhere near $33000 a year. Nice, eh? Don't let ANYONE tell you they have single payer here in Germany. I also have to fork out €400 a month for my wife (a German citizen) until she hits 65. Then she gets German medicare and her "generous" pension of about 780 euros a month. At least medical care here is way less expensive than in the USA.

But it's a dicey issue, since it would require a restructuring of the US tax code, and no one (apparently) cares about us who are stupid enough to represent the USA overseas and declare our income to all authorities that are concerned with taxing it. I hear all the whining about the "billionayahs" hiding thei money in the Cayman Islands, etc etc, but there are maybe five of them, and the IRS knows full well who they are and where they are. The other 6 million of us get shafted. We do have a delegation at the DNConvention, but other than that no one knows or cares that we are out there. If Bernie or Hillary were to acknowledge our problem and do so much as make a noise that we could do worse than to join the rest of the world (and leave Eritrea on its lonesome) on residence-based taxation, they would get my enthusiastic support in a heartbeat.

As long as all we hear are crickets on our issue, both candidates will find a lot of undecideds among us Democrats abroad. We'll all vote Democratic in the General, no two about that. Being overseas, no one knows better than we do what a difference it makes whether we get a Democrat or a Republican President. We are America's unofficial ambassadors overseas. We don't attend cocktail parties with the kings and prime ministers, but we are the face of America that the real world out there sees. I speak 9 European languages and I try to make the people here know that we care about them, and hear them out if they have something about America on their minds. Not for pay, but because it's still our country too that we're representing over here. We wouldn't mind getting a "fayah shayah" of consideration from our Treasury department just like citizens of 200+ non-Eritrea countries out there.

My guess is we still will be completely ignored by both Hillary and Bernie, so other factors will determine my choice.

[Chemisse]

31. Wow. I had no idea that this was an issue.

That is really a difficult pinch to be in, financially speaking.

Are there any bills or proposals out there to solve this? It sure could use some publicity.

[DFW]

47. We have no lobby, and we're not PC

It's basically, "go forth and do our country some good out there, and by the way, don't forget to pay for the privilege."

Just because you're posted overseas, does not mean you are spending your days in a luxury apartment overlooking scenic parts of Paris and your nights is swank, expensive bistros at the expense of people in Indiana with no health insurance. But it's convenient to portray us that way because 5 people out of 6 million actually can do that.

There hasn't been an American politician yet, to my knowledge, who has dared to address this issue. We have no lobby to offer them something wonderful for our support. We're all over the globe. It's not like we can amass 5000 demonstrators in one place for the TV cameras because there aren't 5000 of us in one place to begin with. No politician really has anything to gain by addressing the issue, so none do. Not Hillary. Not Bernie. Not even any of the supposedly tax-averse Republicans. Nobody. We're just not worth the energy.

[seaglass]

41. Thanks for sharing that DFW, that does not sound fair at all. I have to say I don't think I've ever

heard this topic addressed by a politician or seen anything in the media about it.

[DFW]

49. Nor will you

We're spread out all over the globe. Where would we organize a demonstration? The Azores?

Out of sight, out of mind. Maybe our delegation will get to say a few words at 3:30 in the morning at the Convention in Philadelphia. You can see how much attention has been paid to us so far. There are about 30 States with a population smaller than our number, but we have no governor, no lobby, and no one in Washington who gives a rat's ass.

[Kentonio]

69. Have you tried contacting the campaigns to ask their positions?

This would presumably be the one time when both would be more likely to listen than at any other given that they're desperate for as many votes as possible. Waving the potential for 6 million votes in their faces might finally get you the attention you guys so clearly deserve.

[DFW]

72. Sorry I took so long to answer this.

I hadn't done so when you asked, and was working a few 18 hour days until today.

I went to the websites of the two candidates. No mention of it.

On the Sanders site, there was no place to contact them for questions, so I struck out there. Hillary's site did have a space for questions to send in, so I did so. If I get an answer, I'll post about it. If not, I'll cc Howard on it, and maybe get an answer that way.

[Kentonio]

73. You can contact the Sanders campaign at.. [email protected]

I hope you get a reply from both.

[DFW]

74. OK, I'll try that, thanks. n/t

[DFW]

77. OK, the request has now been sent to the Sanders campaign, too

I sent it to the address you suggested. I'll let you know!

[DFW]

97. Here is the response from the Sanders campaign.

Unfortunately, exactly what I would have predicted:

We provide general procedural help related to the campaign but we do not discuss policy here.

For policy related questions you can read Bernie's point of view on the official website here: http://berniesanders.com/issues.

You can also view his YouTube page, where we've published more than 100 videos from his town hall meetings and speeches across the country. He answers many policy questions during those videos which are another great source of information for you.

Please know that we update the website every day, and we encourage you to check back often for additions to the policy page and other areas.

Thank you so much for your support!

------------------------

Not a peep, in other words. Status Quo.

[DFW]

99. The Democrats Abroad has asked both candidates on their positions. Their answers:

Hillary:
RBT: Would you support the replacement of the current system of taxing overseas Americans, known as citizenship-based taxation, with a system of residence-based taxation?

I know that most Americans living abroad are just trying to make a living and provide for their families. I believe that we need a broad discussion about reforming our tax code to cut taxes for hard-working, middle class American families living both here and abroad, and to ask the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share. That means, among other things, closing loopholes that allow many hedge fund managers to pay a lower tax rate than nurses or teachers and supporting proposals like the Buffet Rule. But it also means closing loopholes that create incentives for corporations to ship jobs and profits overseas, and making sure that the wealthiest Americans can’t move overseas to avoid paying taxes. Americans, regardless of where they live, often benefit from American education, infrastructure, legal protections, and trade policies. This is a complicated issue and I will work with Americans living abroad and members of Congress to cut taxes for hardworking, middle class Americans, but also avoid creating any adverse incentives for those looking to avoid contributing their fair share.

FBAR: Would you support reforms to FBAR regulations to address these concerns and inequities?

As president, I will work with Americans living abroad and members of Congress to examine filing requirements with the aim of avoiding redundancies and minimizing unnecessary paperwork and confusion. Any reforms would also need to be scrutinized to avoid weakening government capacity for monitoring illegal activity or tax avoidance facilitated by holding foreign bank accounts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other words, skirt the issue. Very disappointing.

Bernie:
Question: Would you support the replacement of the current system of taxing overseas Americans, known as citizenship-based taxation, with a system of residence-based taxation?

This is something that deserves serious consideration. Other than Eritrea, the U.S. is the only country that I am aware of that requires the filing of two annual tax returns to reconcile complex tax codes of different countries.

In my view, we can provide tax relief to middle-class families living overseas, while prohibiting large corporations and the wealthy from avoiding over $100 billion a year in taxes by stashing their cash in the Cayman Islands and other offshore tax havens.

Question: Would you support reforms to FBAR regulations to address these concerns and inequities?

Yes, I look forward to working with Democrats abroad to address these concerns and make this system more equitable. As you know the FBAR reporting threshold has not been adjusted for inflation since it was first initiated in the early 1970s. We need to look at that. We also need to look at removing the unnecessary duplication in the reporting requirements between FBAR and FATCA.

I am also sympathetic to the concerns raised by older Americans living abroad with the mandatory online reporting requirements that are now in place.

At a time when this country has an $18.4 trillion national debt and so many unmet needs, I do believe that we need to do everything we can to eliminate tax evasion. I also believe that we should be rewarding, not punishing, middle-class citizens living abroad who are following the rules. In my view, we can and we must accomplish both of those goals.
------------------------------------------------------
Same old platitudes. Yes, we all know about the Cayman Islands. How about the 99.9% of us who DON'T hide money there (or anywhere else, for that matter)?

Rocky de la Fuente, whoever the hell THAT is:

2. RBT: Would you support the replacement of the current system of taxing overseas Americans, known as citizenship-based taxation, with a system of residence-based taxation?

YES
Citizenship-based taxation places an undue burden on U.S. citizens living abroad. In effect, it imposes dual-tax exposure upon individuals who, other than on a limited basis, do not represent an economic burden on the programs and services that our federal government provides. Residence-based taxation reflects one’s rationale contribution to the programs and services that affect the lives of those who reside in any given country and city. As Democrats Abroad so cleverly implies, unless the United States aspires to become the next Eritrea, it is time to join the rest of the world in recognizing the nexus between taxation and the programs and services such monies are meant to fund.

3. FBAR: Would you support reforms to FBAR regulations to address these concerns and inequities?

YES
In our federal government’s zeal to create agencies and promulgate regulations, it often fails to do due diligence with regard to redundant and conflicting regulations. The overlap between FACTA and FBAR is an example of such failure. Both address aspects of tax evasion, and while FBAR’s reach may be more comprehensive, a single regulatory approach would be more effective and efficient and far less burdensome with respect to law-abiding citizens living abroad. I would suggest thinking beyond implementing reforms to FBAR and FACTA and explore how a more focused, consolidated approach might be enacted to concentrate on the actual activities that are intended to be policed while eliminating redundant reporting requirements and facilitating alternative forms of filing so as not to unduly burden law-abiding citizens abroad.
_________________________________________________________________

WTF???????????? WHO THE HELL IS THIS GUY? I've never heard of him until just now, when I read the positions on the Democrats abroad page. Whoever he is, he's the only one who had the guts to come out and say YES. With my luck, he'll be in outer space on every other issue, but he's taking a stand here, and it's on our side.

[JDPriestly]

76. We lived in Ger many on the economy some years ago and had German single-payer system insurance.

I don't understand why, if you are married to a German citizen and pay German taxes, you don't have it.

Also, the tax system must have changed.

I thonk you should be able to deduct most of the taxes you pay in Germany from your American taxes . Do you. Earn income in the US that is taxable here?

Your experience is very different than ours, but my husband was teaching and we had children, so we barely had enough money to live like teachers everywhere. The German nationsls who were teachers had a better deal than we did at that time in terms of housing and job security, etc.

I absolutel y loved the German single-payer system. Are you saying that the guest-workers in Germany are not eligible for the single-payer health insurance, or are you saying that you live in Germany but are not working there? Or are you saying that you live and work in Germany but ar e not on the German insurance system?

Do you pay for the German health insurance but not receivee its benefits?

I. Don't understand your post based on my experience in Germany. Of course conservatives like Angela Merkel is in charge there now, and they have instituted aust erity measures in some ways, but your experience is very different from what ours was.

Free trade has complicated tax collection. Our income was from our work in the economy in which we worked and lived, and was just very low so we had no tax problems at that time for sure.

You experience sounds very different.

[DFW]

78. My experience is definitely not typical--few are in my situation

I don't pay for German health insurance because it would cost me $33,000 per year out of my own pocket. I don't know where I'm supposed to come up that kind of spare change.

German teachers, including several of our friends, are usually very happy with their compensation. Plus, they are "beamtet," which means they can never be fired.

If you had a single-payer system, then you were in East Germany. The Bundesrepublik does not have single payer, never did. You were probably covered under Barmer Ersatzkasse or one of those agencies.

Any foreign worker here with both a residence permit AND a work permit (one does not guarantee the second) and a German employer is eligible for insurance here, and I know of none that don't avail themselves of it. I have my residence here, but my employer is in the USA, and I am paid in the USA. It is a completely different situation for me than what it is for someone with a German employer, or for someone who is paid here. Therefore, yes, I live and work in Germany (work in all of Europe, really), but am not on their insurance system. As I explained earlier, someone in my situation is only eligible for "Privat" insurance, and for me (I went and asked), the quote was €2500 per month. My pre-existing condition (heart issues) is what made their calculation so high. They made no effort to conceal it. They have their guidelines and stick to them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

84. Thank you so much for sharing this. This is indeed an important issue. Yes, dicey, but still

very relevant, and you deserve answers.

[DFW]

94. Relevant only to us and the accountants, unfortunately

They rake in big fees, and we get the shaft because we have no representation.

On the one poster's suggestion, I did send requests for a position statement to both the Clinton and Sanders campaigns, and I will post if I get an answer. But we have no one to speak up for us in Washington, plus the rather mistaken impression in some circles that the typical American abroad lives tax-free in a villa on Capri with a staff of ten servants and three master chefs. There is no incentive and nothing to be gained by any politician addressing our situation, so why should they bother?

[RiverLover]

91. I lived in a different country for 10 years & didn't have to pay any US taxes.

I guess I was -lucky- I didn't earn over $95,000/year?

(If you earn over that amount in a foreign country while living there, you have to start kicking in.)

[DFW]

95. You still have to file a return, first off. Only we and the Eritreans have to do that.

And since I am paid in the USA, I have to go through hoops on both ends. I don't have your "luck," but until the IRS and the Germans decide that the DTT was designed to avoid exactly what I'm going through, when the total claim of both governments amounts to over two thirds of my total income, it doesn't feel so much like luck. Even when that's resolved, I get no automatic medical insurance here (nor does my wife, who is German, until she's 65, so I pay €400 a month for her until then).

You only have to start kicking in if your tax rate in the residence country is higher than what you would pay in the USA. In Germany, as you hit the (de facto) 51% bracket at about €115,000, your rate will be higher than at home, which theoretically cancels out what you'd owe to Uncle Sam--except when it doesn't, of course.

[ElliotCarver]

21. May I inquire as to your hitherto unaddressed issue?

Apologies if prying ? welcome

[DFW]

26. See my post #25 above

Last edited Thu Feb 4, 2016, 02:53 AM - Edit history (1)

*on edit--Not an unwelcome inquiry, but I think there has been given more attention to this issue here in DU on this thread in the last few hours than in the last ten years in Congress or by Hillary or Bernie. Who cares about a constituency with no governor, no senators and no members of the House to represent them? We don't have ten million dollars to maintain some lobbyist on K Street. We need no bridges built, and no Interstate highways run through where we live. When we come home, we scatter back to the fifty states from which we came. Diplomats and accountants all know: the American passport is the most expensive one in the world. We Americans abroad know too, as does Treasury. No one else cares. People with no clue back home seem to think we spend our time getting stoned in Amsterdam or living it up with Champagne and caviar off Trafalgar Square or something.

[Dem2]

59. Ha! Excellent post.

I share the same wonderment ...

[Trajan]

6. I don't understand how anybody can be undecided on this

The boundaries are well defined ...

Corporations, or, People ...

Hillary, or, Sanders ...

Two different viewpoints, at nearly opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If you like what has happened to middle class wealth since 1999 - If you have no problem with health care costs being jacked up at 4-5 times the rate of inflation ... If you like wages to increase at half the rate of inflation over extended periods of time ... If you don't mind giving up the idea that America's youth should have a chance to go to college, and instead would prefer that only the rich and well off go to college ...

If you don't mind a reduction of Social Security, or even the elimination of it, or if privatization of SS makes you very happy ...

If you think the poor and hungry should lift themselves up by their bootstraps, and you support the reduction or elimination of Food Stamps ...

If those things are true, then, by all means, you are a Hillary voter ....

Good luck ... You've only 10.5 months till election day ...

[seaglass]

7. I'm clear that this is the POV of the Bernie camp. n/t

[AllTooEasy]

12. You're not helping

Posts like these enforce my current non-committed state

Whenever I start leaning towards Sanders, a DU Sanders supporter posts this one sided crap(how was the middle class doing before 1999, and which family was in the White House?). Whenever I lean Hillary's way, there's more one-sided crap from her DU supporters!

"Hillary is Repuke-lite"
"Bernie's doesn't love Black people enough"
"Hillary is horny for war"
"Bernie is a closet gun nut"
"Hillary/Bernie has no chance to win the general"
"Bernie/Hillary only has one selling point"

...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

I wish Hillary and Bernie supporters conducted their online debates with the same class and character as Hillary and Bernie. I'm not holding my breath

[PyaarRevolution]

24. Bottom line.

I'm looking at being against TPP while supporting Medicare for all and tuition free college to name a few. This is why I support Bernie. Oh and I definitely like the fact he will reinvest in infrastructure because, dear GOD, we need it. What I'm hoping to see past this with Bernie is a reinvestment in NASA.
There are other issues as well, including moving to clean, renewable energy(wish he would take a page from MOM here and run with it). Additionally there's criminal justice reform across the board. Seeing a real change in police behavior and standards would help us all tremendously. I know those police are the anomaly but they're not helping the good police do their jobs, having that video hanging over their heads.
I would like to push Bernie to backing a new set of working hours, specifically changing the workweek from 40 to 32 hours. He could first start that standard in government jobs and enforce it on government contracting.
I realize he can't do this alone but I agree with Thom Hartmann that Bernie getting the nomination will drastically effect the down ticket race for Democrats in the House and Senate coming up for election in the Presidental vote.

[Chemisse]

32. Some of the arguments here on their behalf would put a blush on Bernie's and Hillary's faces.

And really, if you don't decide at all, all you have to do is let others battle it out, then vote for the Dem in the GE.

[AllTooEasy]

56. See, that's a helpful post!

Thanks

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

87. Sheer brilliance. That's what I planning to do. My goal is to skip over that office and just vote

for down ticket candidates. We'll see by April. I suppose it also depends on where we are by then.

[Trajan]

38. I'll make it easy for you

BAM! ... gone ...

Wishy washy no more!

[DFW]

27. I don't understand how anyone can tell me how and when I have to decide

I use to live in Fascist Spain under Franco when I was a teenager. THERE they told me how to decide. Never back home, though.

[Trajan]

37. A complete misrepresentation

I am ASTOUNDED that anybody can be unresolved about these choices ...

I don't care what you do ... I'll assume you're voting for Cruz in the end .. Because, you know, he 'might be the right choice' ... Far be it from me to tell you otherwise ...

Have a happy life ...

[bettyellen]

51. Very foolish assumption: "I'll assume you're voting for Cruz in the end"

I hope you're not actually helping out with any campaign, cause you're not helping.

Cut+paste + snark= very lazy thinking.

[AllTooEasy]

57. For real, Bernie would quickly fire his ass!

[bettyellen]

71. I have a friend mad at me because I said bringing up Vince Foster was shitty. Seriously?

It is shitty.

[Recursion]

44. Because I don't like either remaining candidate very much?

And, btw, this is what I find absolutely infuriating about Sanders's supporters.

The boundaries are well defined ...

Corporations, or, People ...

Hillary, or, Sanders ...

Two different viewpoints, at nearly opposite ends of the political spectrum.


Yes, I get that you've built this up into that in your mind, but like a lot of people I see two politicians who are very good at telling their supporters what they want to hear, both of whom would bring significant liabilities into the general election, and both of whom are older than my (retired) parents. I don't think either one is the way the party needs to go, and I'm really not sure which one will get my vote.

As it stands right now I'm somewhat leaning Sanders because I think Clinton is once again showing a troubling tendency to implode on the campaign trail, and that may not have just been a 2008 fluke. But we'll see. I'd be fine (though not terribly inspired) with either one as President; I think Clinton would accomplish more but only marginally.

[bettyellen]

52. It's funny that no one realizes you can also be cynical about Bernie.

LOL, I am always cynical. All of the hero worship gets a side eye from me.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

88. And yet at the debates, Sanders continued to agree with Hillary. Every statement she made, he

began his response with "I agree". As she spoke, he nodded in affirmation and agreement.

But DUers would claim that they are night and day--and both supporters claim that were the other candidate to win the primary, the Republicans would beat said candidate in the general.

It's best that we continue to do what we're doing. Wait and see, like many people are apparently doing in Nevada.

Wait and see. Do your own research.

O'Malley is out, so Maryland will be interesting when we get to it in April.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

86. ^^^^ THIS is what we mean about the arrogance and condescension from supporters. Not helpful.

Definitely not needed.

[LaydeeBug]

9. not committed either. I really like both of them. nt

the "head vs heart" thing is very apt.

[firebrand80]

11. I have an open offer

To Ben Cohen to switch my allegencies to Bernie in exchange for a lifetime supply of Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

Until such time that my demands are met, I remain committed to Hillary Clinton.

[DFW]

28. LOL !!!

There you go!

[olddots]

15. I can'decide whether or not to answer

[AllTooEasy]

16. The only person I'm committed to is MY WIFE!

Hillary and Bernie have to wait until March 22nd - the AZ primary.

The GDP is a pile of shit. A 3rd of its posts are easily recognizable as coming from Republican trolls who try to convince us to:

a) regret Obama's presidency
b) regret Bill Clinton's presidency
c) turn on Hillary
d) view Bernie as a wasted effort
e) create Progressive voter apathy
f) divide and conquer

It's freaking OBVIOUS, but DU judges/administrators are too egotistical, stubborn, and moronic to allow readers to call out the trolls.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

89. I'm banned from both groups (Sanders and Clinton). I trashed GDP because it is counterproductive.

[zappaman]

17. Not committed in CA.

Too many months before our primary.

[CTyankee]

22. GD P is not the best place to go for cogent argument if you are undecided. some folks are

very angry and post unfortunate things.

Best to stay away and just listen to what the candidates say. Now we Dems are down to two. My advice is to go into the details of their policy proposals. Do research. Hey, just think!

I find GD best for posting lots of interesting, fact filled information. I also like Video & Multimedia, which has the speeches.

Read whatever factual pieces you can find online . Take 'em or leave 'em based on some fact based research of your own.

We gotta be very serious here, folks. No lollygagging...do your research, read up and listen hard...

[seaglass]

23. It's not that I haven't paid attention, nor that I get my info from GDP - it's possible

that I am overthinking. They both have good points and they both have flaws. For now they are tied.

[Chemisse]

33. That's what has dogged me these past few months.

They both have pros and cons. I wish we had a candidate that was made up of the best of both of them.

[CTyankee]

35. That's what I think. But that is exactly what differentiates them...ugh, I hate this...

I want Bernie's ideas but Hillary's voter appeal and also that she is the first woman.

I was hoping that Hillary would modulate her message once Bernie took such a stupendous lead. I hope she get the lesson!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

90. President Obama was that candidate. :)

[Lebam in LA]

29. I haven't and DU has not helped

The nastiness that is thrown about keeps me away from here most of the time.

[etherealtruth]

30. I am afraid I won't decide until I am in the voting "booth"

I like and respect our candidates ... pretty much equally .... I have (fairly) equal concerns about each of them.

The posts in GDP are extremely unhelpful .... so i almost never post and rarely read. I wish there was a place here where we could discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the candidates without the over the top claims and rhetoric.

I have come to believe that the most ardent supporters of the candidates do the most damage with the wavering or undecided among us. Note: you may one up or score points in discussion .... but you are not winning over the people you could possibly reach

[Chemisse]

34. I wish there was a place to talk about it too.

We should have a protected 'undecided or constantly waffling between the two' group.

I'd love to be able to express my concerns and compare their positive aspects without being pounced upon.

[etherealtruth]

36. Sadly, I have no hope it will ever happen :-( n/t

[bettyellen]

53. what you said regarding the "most ardent" supporters....yep.

[Andy823]

39. I was for O'Malley

Now I am uncommitted, and yes I find many of then posts in GDP very unhelpful, and many are just plain disgusting.

I was for O'Malley because he had actual plans in writing that explained how he would fix the issues that need to be addressed in this country, and I liked his ideas. I also was very impressed with the Martin O'Malley group where the last time I checked not one person had been banned from that group. I could go there, ask questions, read all kinds of things about O'Malley and why he would be a good choice for president, and not read on negative thing about the other two candidates, at leas not from the members of that group.

I still want to know specifics from the other two, not just an outline of things, but I want to see how the numbers add up, I want to see facts that support their positions, not from groups that support the candidate, but from the candidate themselves. Neither on of them are perfect, I know that, and they have not impressed me as much as O'Malley, yet I know for a fact either one would be a millions times better than any of the GOP clown car, and I will, in the end, vote for the one that wins the nomination.

What I want to hear are reasons why they will be better than the other candidate, not why the other candidate will be worse.

[Recursion]

45. What might have been...

Sigh

[bettyellen]

40. my vote is too late to matter, so I am watching from the sidelines. Mostly, the posts are unhelpful.

Lots of headstrong people being petty. Lots of bullshit posted too. Honestly, if I didn't already have a lifelong habit of volunteering, I'd probably totally sit it out. I would normally do some phone banking for super tuesday, but haven't decided if I will yet. Probably save my energy for the general.

[LP2K12]

42. Not committed

However, I am leaning towards Sanders.

[nclib]

43. I am undecided.

I like both candidates and don't know how I will decide. I've never not voted before. GDP is not at all helpful. There is so much nastiness from posters (with one side being a little worse than the other). I usually do not read any posts about Bernie or Hillary. So far I have been able to keep the candidates separate from their fans so have no ill will towards them.

[cry baby]

48. Not committed yet. nt

[Orangepeel]

50. Eh. I was for O'Malley. I'm fine with either of the others.

If there is still a race in April, I'll decide then.

[lunasun]

54. UNdecided. Also, GDP is not helpful but sometimes disturbing

[OilemFirchen]

55. I am a quadrennial agnostic and a loyal Democrat.

I always enter the voting booth with low expectations. This year, as in years prior, I'm happy to note that all of the Party's candidates have ascended to meet this threshold.

[Mz Pip]

60. It doesn't matter

Our primary isn't until June. I've got months to decide if it hasn't already been decided by time they get around to us in the great state of California.

Kinda sad to see this turn into something verging on mud wrestling but hopefully we can all come together by next November.

Remember, the next President will possibly appoint 4 SCOTUS justices. Who would you rather see make those appointments? President Cruz or President the candidate I didn't support in the primaries?

[DFW]

68. It's disheartening to hear how many would answer your question with "President Cruz"

But despite their protestations of purity, I find it difficult to imagine that someone who is really one of us would hold that stance for real. That's what I'd expect from a true Cruz supporter who likes to come here and stir up trouble.

[lovemydog]

61. Great questions.

I'm still undecided. My state's primary isn't until June. I'll support the democratic nominee. I vote in all elections, and consider local state and congressional elections very important. I want to see how things play out down the road - I can see myself being comfortable voting for either candidate in the primary and the general election.

I think both candidates are pretty similar on most policies that are important to democrats. I liked O'Malley a lot too and would like to see his policy positions taken seriously, especially the importance of urban areas to our overall health as a country. I think some individuals who post in GDP greatly exaggerate the differences between the candidates on our side. The stark contrast in politics in our country is between our candidates and those on the republican side.

Overall I feel both Sanders and Clinton have been doing an excellent job in emphasizing what I've said. Some of their more rabid 'supporters' here, not so much. I find most of the posts in GDP better for comic relief than for sober discussion. Some are just hysterical in their self-righteousness. I also think there are trolls who try to attack one portion of the party or another, or one portion or the left or another, perhaps just to be outrageous, perhaps to try to depress the vote. If they aren't trolling then I really feel sorry for them because they seem to be arguing the same positions over and over without being persuasive in the least. The posts to which I'm referring appear void of the fundamental historical knowledge that change can come in both short quick bursts and over long term incremental progress too. Neither should be condemned.

Progressives win in numbers, when we all vote. We need both sides of progressivism - those who are more idealistic or from the heart and those who are more pragmatic or from the head.

I get some interesting information here at DU. It's also pretty entertaining. Especially via links to articles or videos. Mainly I enjoy reading the groups and participating in some of them.

Thanks for the good questions.

[Dem2]

63. Excellent post

[lovemydog]

64. Thanks.

It's nice getting some positive feedback. Hope you enjoy a good evening.

[Dem2]

65. This thread is a pleasant change of pace

from the usual team sport activity in GDP. I enjoyed reading thoughtful posts from people like yourself who consider both remaining candidates to be worthy of consideration.

[lovemydog]

67. Indeed.

And same to you.

I think there's more like us than some here may think.

My friends in real life who I talk with don't hate on either Clinton or Sanders.

None of us are fond of any republicans.

[Dem2]

62. I'm undecided as well

I like pretty much everything Bernie says and how he says it, he is very genuine, perhaps even a tad naive (but in a good way.) The only issue for me is that many of his supporters on DU, reddit, Facebook, Twitter etc. are smug, holier-than-thou ass holes.

I like Hillary's strength and determination and I don't see her positions as all that different than Bernie's - especially when one considers that we can't criticize the Republicans for never compromising whilst saying we must vote for the candidate who - this time for sure! - will be steadfast and uncompromising. What? Makes my head spin.

GDP is not all that useful in helping make up my mind other than to observe the behavior of the more ardent supporters on either side. Some Hillary supporters can be rather boorish and/or cheerleader-like, which is shallow and not useful (Bernie has these too), and I've already characterized another (sadly rather large) subset of Bernie's supporters above. I'm not naive in that I realize that many posting here see it as a game. "Winning", figuring ways to insult one's foes and copycat mocking threads are all the rage. Fun? Eh, I guess - it's entertaining - but I said the same about Trump at first...

[lovemydog]

66. Great points. And ultimately you're right, it's no game.

Which leads to this great David Bowie song:

[RFKHumphreyObama]

75. From the perspective of an outsider looking in

I am not American nor a resident of the United States and am ineligible to vote but I follow US politics obsessively, to the extent that I am told that I know more about it than a lot of Americans. This primary is no exception and, for the first time since probably 1992, I find myself without a candidate whom I'm supporting to win the nomination and would therefore be uncommitted if I were eligible to vote in the primaries. Perhaps my opinion doesn't matter since I'm not a participant in the process. But I see other non-participants in the process giving their opinions on behalf of their particular candidate here so I thought I'd share mine as well

I agree with Hillary Clinton on a lot of issues. I've been particularly impressed with her defence of the Obama Administration during her campaign and I tend to be sympathetic to her argument that change has to be incremental, rather than radical, otherwise it risks jeopardizing the whole process. I admired Bill Clinton greatly during his presidency, although some of the gloss has come off in retrospect as I've reviewed his time in office and also because of his behaviour during the 2008 primaries (when I backed Edwards and then Obama). I think Clinton has the potential to be a good President and she certainly has a lot of the people around her who have the potential to make her succeed

OTOH, there are several things about her which give me pause for thought. I still haven't forgotten the primary campaign she ran during 2008, which I found nasty and divisive, and -while I am willing to forgive for the most part -some of the misgivings about her stem from that period. I do think, whatever she says, that she is an establishment candidate and historical precedent tends to show that candidates so closely aligned with the Democratic political establishment don't tend to do very well in the GE -winning candidates like Carter, Obama and even Bill Clinton tend to be more political outsiders, even if Obama and Bill Clinton did have ties to the establishment. I find her a very polarizing figure and do wonder whether she will have the impact of alienating voters as much as drawing them into the Democratic fold. And I don't like some of her campaign tactics and the way that some of her surrogates have behaved

There's also a lot I admire about Bernie. I admire his passion, his steadfast commitment to his principles and his advocacy of progressive principles. I think he's been great as a Senator from Vermont in highlighting progressive causes. I like a lot of what he has to say about Wall Street and the like

And yet I'd be concerned that he and his platform are too radical both to be viable in a general election and also in the unlikely event he was able to get into office as President. Sure, he leads in the polls now against potential Republican rivals, but polls this early are meaningless. Polls in 1999 showed Bush with double digit leads over Gore and polls as late as July 1988 showed Dukakis with double-digit leads over Bush. And, even if he were to get into office, how would he accomplish all his radical changes? He'd likely face the same sort of challenges that President Obama did, even when he did have a Democratic Congress.

And there are other issues too. I have concerns about Sanders and his record on gun control and his votes against comprehensive immigration reform. I feel he puts too much emphasis on economic equity -which admittedly is very important -at the expense of other important social issues. I have issues with some of the tactics of his campaign, particularly in relation to things like the data breach issue. And I haven't liked the way that some of his surrogates have felt the need to trash President Obama and his record in office. When I see people like Cornel West, whose vitriol against President Obama has bordered on offensive personal abuse - stumping for Sanders, I find it deeply unsettling

If I were eligible to vote in the Democratic primary, for the most part, I would try not to allow the discussion in GDP to influence my personal preference. But I must say that if I find a consistent behaviour among supporters of one particular candidate across the various boards and forums on the Internet and from surrogates and if that behaviour is not constructive, it may on some level influence my perception of the type of campaign that candidate is running and therefore influence my vote

[seaglass]

96. There is much I agree with you about. Just wanted to acknowledge your thoughtful post. n/t

[JustAnotherGen]

79. I was committed to O'Malley

I'm now not committed.

Primary isn't until June in New Jersey so it will probably be decided by then anyways.

[bigtree]

80. me

...I actually have to keep reminding myself that GDP isn't an accurate reflection of the actual campaigns.

Aside from wading through the navel-gazing threads, DU still keeps me up on the day to day stuff. It is hard for me, though, to keep from vibing off of the negativity here and projecting that to the candidates.

I've NEVER been this stumped before.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

81. Used to be a Bernie fan, but after learning his views on race, I'm not committed.

I likely won't support either candidate.

Sanders's fanatics are also turning me off. They have been vicious, many of them racist and condescending as hell.

I know who HRC is. I know the devil in the room.

Sanders has a lot to convince me on. However, he's already demonstrated that class is more important than race, so he's not my candidate, either.

[Raine1967]

92. I am not committed.

I don't know how I will vote on Super Tuesday.

GDP is not helping me.

[procon]

93. Another California undecided here.

I like both candidates and would vote for either one over a Republican, but since my primary isn't until June, I will continue to weigh their strengths and weaknesses until the last day. One of the big issues I have is how effective either will be in governing. No matter how cool their policies sound now, how they will get anything passed in an obstructive Congress that is likely to remain in Republican control until after the next census?

Both Clinton and Sanders have been in politics for many years -- and this is where my doubts arise-- but Sanders has chosen to remain staunchly self-reliant and separate from the dirty business of politicking while Clinton has worked to build a broad network of powerful allies that endorse her in not just the political arena, but in business, the private sector, NGOs, academia, the military and science, and has she has developed solid relationships with key international leaders. How will they use their political clout and deploy their network of powerful associates and fellow Democrats to effectively advance their agenda against the organised and determined stonewalling of GOP resistance?

Sander's followers frequently cite his lack of political affiliation as a paean to their ideological purity, but all those missing important alliances would have become the vital foundation for his administration when he chooses his advisors, staff and cabinet. Without those long standing associations, who will he try to bring into his administration? Rapper Killer Mike, or do I want to see a Cabinet consisting of Jesse Ventura, Cornel West, Lil B and Ben & Jerry?

So now that they've told me what they think is their most important issues, these two candidates now need to convince me that they can put together a world class government of knowledge and experienced professionals who have sufficient chops to work through complex political negotiations and make the tough deals that will actually get those shiny policy statements implemented.

[seaglass]

98. Closer to a decision today. My daughter and I decided that we would vote together so we don't

cancel each others votes out. She is leaning Sanders and I am leaning Clinton though neither of us are committed to our leanings, the idea is that we each make our case and then decide.

[Decoy of Fenris]

100. Not committed fully yet.

I'm inclined to lean towards Sanders, but I'm never willing to say I'm 100% committed until after the fact.

In regards to GDP, I only come here to watch the two sides do battle. I've rarely seen entertainment of that level on any other forum; to watch the tide of battle ebb and flow as the primaries go on is fascinating and immensely entertaining. Posts here do absolutely nothing in regards to influencing my decision, though.

[doc03]

101. All I can say is we have about 350 million people in this country

and those are the choices on either side.