Bernie's "Supposed" POC Problem

[kcjohn1]

This has being talking point from Clinton campaign, and IMO despicable strategy equivalent to GOP campaigns (trying to drive wedge between white liberals and POC). Granted polling shows her winning POC vote by huge margin, but guess what? Before campaigning started in Iowa Bernie was down by huge margins as well.

Now, the real question. How much of the gap is because of age? We were told woman would in droves would swing to Clinton, but the divide is not between man/woman. Its age. Older voters are voting at huge margins for her, and younger voters same for Bernie. I don't know much about SC, but I think its probably good hypothesis that what is more important about state, is how old is the electorate vs number of minorities? I would think that is the key number for Bernie.

[Empowerer]

1. This not coming from the Clinton campaign. It's coming directly from black folk, but when we say it

we're swarmed by Sanders supporters telling us why we don't know what we're talking about.

[Rebkeh]

2. Yep

I am a black Bernie supporter and can definitely attest to a problem with some Bernie supporters and their lack of understanding the nuances of this "poc problem." I am writing something about this very subject and plan to post it at the end of the week.

[Number23]

6. I am really looking forward to your post on this matter

Hopefully you'll post it in GDP?

[Rebkeh]

19. I probably won't

It's an issue among Bernie supporters and I'll be talking to them directly. Besides, I try to stay out of gd-p as a general rule.

I may post it here but it's not likely.

[Number23]

31. Well, good luck with that

When you post something it would be great if you could send me a PM. I don't read the Sanders forum and will likely miss your post. I'd really like to read your thoughts on this.

[Rebkeh]

43. Sure. I'll do that. Nt

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

45. I'm banned from the Sanders forum, so I'd love to see it, too! :)

[Rebkeh]

62. I'm spinning too many plates this week

But I have not forgotten. I'll post soon

[Number23]

64. Great! Just let me know

[Mike__M]

7. Look forward to reading your thoughts (n/t)

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

44. I can't wait to see your ideas. The arrogance of some Sanders supporters is beginning to turn a lot

Last edited Thu Feb 4, 2016, 12:30 PM - Edit history (1)

of black voters off. Talking down to us ain't gonna cut it. They don't get to tell us how to feel, what to do, and certainly not how to vote.

[uponit7771]

37. +1

[Autumn]

3. My feeling is that people will and should always look at the candidates and decide who

represents their values and needs the best and vote for that person.

[Rebkeh]

5. Mine too ... but

And this is a big but, when you try to persuade people to vote for Bernie without understanding the context, are totally tone deaf and have an obvious lack of understanding - you will fail to convince. Period.

Even worse if the person has never heard of Bernie Sanders.

Read this, every Bernie supporter should.:

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-populists-like-bernie-sanders-should-talk-about-racism/

[Autumn]

8. Thing is, during the primaries people are always going to talk up their candidate.

Not everyone does it in the best way and I will include Hillary and her supporters who thinks she is like my abuela. As a Latina I am well aware of how racism hurts us all, I have no desire to convince anyone to vote for Bernie. His record speaks for itself, that was why I decided I would not support Hillary this time even though I wanted to vote for a woman as president in my lifetime. But on a political discussion board when he is mentioned, I will weigh in with my thoughts on him.

[Gothmog]

10. Bernie Sanders Needs More Than The Tie He Got In Iowa

Last edited Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Sanders is not polling well in states with less than 90+% white populations and so Sanders needed to do much better in Iowa http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bernie-sanders-needs-more-than-the-tie-he-got-in-iowa/

We’ve said for months that Iowa and New Hampshire are two of the best states for Sanders demographically. You can see why in the entrance poll taken in Iowa. Sanders won very liberal voters over Clinton by 19 percentage points, but he lost self-identified somewhat liberals and moderates to Clinton by 6 percentage points and 23 percentage points, respectively. That’s bad for Sanders because even though 68 percent of Iowa Democratic caucus-goers identified as liberal this year, only 47 percent of Democratic primary voters nationwide did so in 2008. We’ll need to see if Sanders can do better in a state that is more moderate than Iowa before thinking he can win the nomination.

Iowa and New Hampshire also lack nonwhite voters, who form a huge part of the Democratic base. Can Sanders win over some of these voters? Clinton has held a lead among nonwhites of nearly 40 percentage points in national polls. In Nevada, which votes after the New Hampshire primary, the electorate for the Democratic caucuses in 2008 was 15 percent Hispanic and 15 percent black. After Nevada comes South Carolina, where a majority of Democratic voters will be black. Our polls-only forecast in South Carolina gives Clinton a 94 percent chance to win, and our polls-plus forecast gives her a 96 percent chance to win.

Clinton will continue to be a favorite for the Democratic nomination if she continues to hold a large lead among nonwhite voters and basically breaks even with white voters, as she did in Iowa. Sanders, meanwhile, needs to cut into Clinton’s lead among nonwhites and expand his support among white voters beyond what he won in Iowa. If he does that, he’ll put himself in contention to win the nomination. If he doesn’t, he’ll continue to be an underdog.

[Autumn]

11. Hillary needs a lot also, and she's just not going to get it nt

[stage left]

56. Thank you for this post, Rebkeh.

I found it very interesting.I'm a Bernie volunteer in SC doing phonebanking. I look forward to your own post.

[wildeyed]

4. This again?

It is NOT a talking point from any campaign. You could go read any of the hundreds post and articles by ACTUAL BLACK PEOPLE posted on this site and on others and then you would know that there is an actual problem with Sanders messaging and outreach to black Dems.

WTF are you even saying? That all the blacks in SC are old and that is why they like Clinton? Or are you saying you hope that all the young Dems in SC are white so they can drown out the black votes? Have you BEEN to SC?

[Empowerer]

13. Oh, come on Wild - if black people aren't "Feeling the Bern," it's because someone is manipulating

them. And if they're comments about the Sanders campaign fall anywhere short of lavish praise for Bernie, it's because they are repeating the Clinton campaign's talking points because, after all, these people surely are not capable of thinking for themselves or developing independent opinions on their own.

[wildeyed]

16. We should do a post about about Clinton's

"alleged" white liberal problem.

It's all those mean Sanders surrogates driving a wedge between white liberals and Hillary!!!!! If it wasn't for them, white liberals would see that a political strategy that prioritizes social justice and the voting rights of POC would ALSO improve support for the issues they care about. It's a no brainer!!!!! White liberals must have a mental illness that prevents them from seeing my point of view on this topic!

But never fear! Clay Aiken has endorsed Clinton, and also some random white guy on YouTube, so ALL the white people will flock to her now!!!!!

But they seem to struggle with analogies. Except when they use them to explain how their candidate losing an election was really a win

[Hortensis]

70. Typical far left anti-liberalcontempt for the opinions

of others. DU's contingent is so convinced of their moral superiority that failure to join them is proof of inferiority. Don't worry, they plan to fix your world for you, and you will be happy. And if perchance you're not, then obviously you don't deserve to be.

[artislife]

71. That's funny, because outside this site

I see the debate not so hillary heavy. For example, if you follow The Root on FB (their website produce little responses) you will see a healthy debate between the supporters of both. I can only look at the photos that are connected to those who are posting and assume whether they are truly AA or not. She is not so heavily favored. Look at Huff Post and the comment section there... These are just two main stream examples of free sites that allow one to post that is not affiliated with a specific candidate.

Here, I read in the AA group a lot in the beginning. Then I found out that many of the voices I thought were actually AA were not. But many voices do not support Bernie for sure. Whether it is truly reflective of "reality" or not is kind of like the question if the rest of this board is reflective of the "real" support of Bernie among liberals.

[Gothmog]

9. The Iowa electorate was overwhelmingly white but among those who weren't, Clinton won handily

This is from the Iowa caucuses last night http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/2/2/1478778/-The-Iowa-electorate-was-overwhelmingly-white-but-of-those-who-weren-t-Clinton-won-handily

From the Iowa entrance polls:

WHITE NON-WHITE
CLINTON 49 58
SANDERS 46 34
OMALLEY 2 2

The non-white sample was 150 out of 1,660, so while unfortunately small, the 24-point gap is still outside the margin of error. That sample size was also too small to break out African Americans, Latinos, and Asians, so we don’t have granularity. Also unfortunately, New Hampshire won’t provide greater insight next week, so this is all we have to work with. (I included Martin O’Malley because half of his meager support came from non-whites, probably Latinos happy with his strong defense of immigrant rights.)

In any case, look at this from FiveThirtyEight (click on link for full chart):

?1454443272

[mythology]

12. How exactly is it a talking point from the Clinton campaign?

It's evident in all of the polling that for whatever reason, Sanders message isn't resonating with minority groups. Being a white guy, I'm not going to presume to speak for why that is, but the math is very simple. He can't win without doing substantially better once he gets passed New Hampshire.

[kcjohn1]

15. You must not be paying attention

Every Clinton surrogate mentions this. When Sanders was down 50 points in the polling, where people saying he has white "problem"? The messaging from the Hillary campaign is 1) Dismiss his gains in early state 2) Drive a wedge between POC / Sanders.

Very dangerous strategy. Lets wait until the first votes are cast before driving that narrative somehow Bernie has black problem.

[wildeyed]

17. Sanders does not need Clinton to

"drive a wedge". He does fine on his own. This is a self-inflicted wound. And posts like this area perfect example of why he is not polling well with the group.

Your post is condescending and ignorant of the racial and political history of our country.

POC decide for themselves who they vote for. Neither your candidate OR mine is capable of doing that. Any more than your candidate is capable of driving a wedge between Clinton and a demographic group called "young white liberals".

Both young white liberals AND black democrats are capable of making up their own mind on political matters. To assume otherwise is a very dangerous tactical error.

[thereismore]

26. Bernie has some work to do to convince Black America that he has their backs. I think

the early BLM interactions lead to a perception that he was somehow uncomfortable with black people. I recognize that problem and he recognizes that problem. He hired black people to be his advisors and spokespeople. However, for a lot of black people that is not enough and they think he is just a pandering white ass guy just like the lot of them that they experienced in their lives. I get that. However, I plead with you not to fall into that trap. I think Bernie, not his supporters, not his campaign, but Bernie the person, is a man with his heart in the right place. He has your backs and mine. He did not spend decades rubbing elbows with black politicians and did not polish benches in black churches like the Clintons did - and bless them for it! - he did his job, day after day, fighting for people in his State that happens to be very white. I plead with you, give Bernie the man a chance, a second look.

This black man thinks that "In many ways, Clinton posing as any kind of friend to Black Americans is as absurd"
read this if you have the time: http://www.citypaper.com/news/mobtownbeat/bcp-020316-reparations-tariq-toure-20160202-story.html

[wildeyed]

30. NOOOOOOOO

This was good. You were making a good persuasive argument, trying to find common ground.

I take off points for the "he has your back". Do not presume to tell black America who has their back. They are capable of figuring that our on their own. So try to avoid a condescending tone. But I added one point back for not bringing up MLK.

From a readability standpoint, and add some hard returns. Long paragraphs are hard to read online. But over all, a solid B effort.

And then you posted the "This black man thinks" crap. This black man thinks like you and you like that. To post a non-representative and/or unknown person just because they are black and agree with your talking points does not cut it.

Same. Tired. Old. Shit.

[thereismore]

33. I will take a B. Let me try again:

Give him a second look and see if you still think he does not have your back. How's that?

Also, that guy who wrote the article is black, that's just a matter of fact. Are you sure he isn't representative? Maybe you just don't like his message so you dismiss him and end up being like me, picking and choosing! See how that works? Both ways.

[wildeyed]

36. No, pretty sure he is not.

The polling alone says that. And there are a number of vocal black posters on this site who have repeatedly said this. And I have seen that POV echoed on other, completely unrelated platforms and from people I actually know. A pretty much universal theme is that they do not like Cornel West....

I also know a few very vocal black Sanders supporters. In the real wold. And I respect their opinion too. I do not try to convince them to Clinton either. They know their minds just fine without my help.

[thereismore]

39. Respect. Peace. nt

[DanTex]

18. The first votes have been cast. POC in Iowa voted for Hillary over Bernie by a large margin.

[kath]

22. 58-34. A 24% difference. Not nearly the 40% difference mentioned in post#10, and way smaller than

the 70% or so gap seen in earlier national and state polls. With the tie in Iowa and a likely NH win, there will be more and more attention and media attention given to Bernie, and that gap will continue to shrink, **just as it did with Obama in 2008** once he had some wins under his belt and began to be perceived as "electable".

[uponit7771]

38. Somehow 20+ points somehow changes the narrative vs 40 or 70?!?!?! A pol gets beat by 20+ points...

... in any category means they did horrible...

Fact not in dispute

[kath]

41. Seems the point went WHOOOSH, or you are being willfully obtuse - the gap is closing

,, and will very likely continue to do so (how far can't be predicted, of course), just as it did for Obama in 2008.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. Sanders and his fanatics are the ones marginalizing and alienating black voters. Has little to do

with Evil Hillary Clinton.

[DemocraticSocialist8]

20. Bernie DOESN'T Have A POC Problem

I hate this narrative that has developed. He got swarmed by BLM a couple times (as did the other candidates) and the polling that has been done of his support among Blacks like in South Carolina for instance is overwhelming slighted towards older voters who we already know favor Hillary. 540,000+ people came out to vote in the 2008 SC primary vs. 292,000+ in 2004. I haven't found the numbers for 2000 or earlier. In 2008 you have to remember that young, Black millennials came out in droves to vote for Obama in numbers that are not often seen. While I don't expect Sanders to get Obama turnout in SC...I DO expect there to be a stronger turnout among voters between 25-35 than the polling is indicating.

This narrative that Bernie has a problem with Black voters is a lie. If they turn out to vote against the establishment (and there are MANY young Black voters who are anti-establishment) I think he can narrow the gap tremendously in SC and beyond. The criminal justice reform issue is important to these voters moreso than likely any other demographic. If Sanders wants to get these voters to come out and vote for them he needs to make it clear that he supports policies that address that issue. Since announcing his support for the abolishment of private prisons...I haven't heard him say anything about that since then. He needs to take that message to young Black voters. Make some ads addressing that issue directly and play it on BET, ESPN whatever channel in SC that Blacks watch the most.

After New Hampshire, he's going to have to start talking at length about issues that hurt communities of color more than white communities. I can see why he'd wouldn't push this issue as hard in states like IA and NH, but that message WILL resonate in states like Nevada and SC.

[Rebkeh]

57. I suspect the perception of the poc problem is just that, perception

He hasn't fully made his appeals yet, focusing first on IA and NH simply because they are first in line as far as primary elections/caucuses go. But that's a perception of Bernie himself having a problem, what is not perception is (some of) his supporters having poc problems.

The country overall has a lot of work to do in terms of race and racism, these elections are not immune to issues that come from those challenges.

[loyalsister]

61. I saw him talking about voting rights

for felons. I have been hearing from some people in my area that efforts to exploit those numbers is the flip side of the republican southern strategy and equally offensive.
It is too common but not okay to push the idea that a group of people operate monolithicly, while white people are presumed to function as individuals.
Diversity among people of color in terms of income, gender, sexual orientation, dis/ability, education level, etc... will also play a role in who gets polled and how those numbers shake out. I personally know more people of color who support Bernie, but I'm sure Hillary has plenty of support. Everyone's choices should be respected. Turning those choices into a na na na na your candidate can't get this marginalized group to vote for them argument is silly and disrespectful.

[Rebkeh]

65. the flip side of the southern strategy?

Oh man, this is messy.

I am just tired of being stuck in the middle and and I think this is an opportune moment, if only we could take it. All of us.

[loyalsister]

66. Messy indeed

I'm referring to my post which was poorly written.
The flip side of the southern strategy in this case refers to exploiting a perception of voter support for a candidate as opposed to Nixon's exploitation the perception of a candidate supporting people.

I am not enjoying this primary much, myself.

[Rebkeh]

67. Have you seen this article?

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-populists-like-bernie-sanders-should-talk-about-racism/

[loyalsister]

68. Thanks!

It reminds me of an article I once read where it was pointed out that Kenneth Clark's testimony about how segregation damages white children was not mentioned in Warren's opinion on Brown v Board of Education.
I have been hearing a lot of black friends say they support Bernie. I don't think the polls reflect the electorate very accurately.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

74. Thank you! ^^^^The Nation 'gets it'. This is a great article!

[firebrand80]

21. It's what the polling data says, so either

A. All of the polls are wrong, or

B. The polls are correct, but they will change, or

C. The polls are correct, and will stay roughly the same.

It's a "problem" because A is wishful thinking, and if C is true he probably doesn't have a path to the nomination. So he's got some work to do.

[DemocraticSocialist8]

24. I think the polling is wrong and it's not like polling hasn't been wrong in the past

I think the polling is entirely too heavily weighted towards older voters.

[firebrand80]

25. Weighting has nothing to do with it

Just in terms of the demographic groups Bernie polls roughly 25-75 in AA support.

Do you have a basis for thinking those polls are incorrect?

[comradebillyboy]

53. The polls don't reflect his wishes so they are obviously wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. And yet Hillary doesn't have any work to do with Millennials?

She's gonna need them in November, too.

And it appears her supporters' "strategy" is to insult them and dismiss their concerns.

[firebrand80]

32. Just because Millenials prefer Bernie

Doesn't mean they won't go for Hillary in the general. In 2008, I recall much hand-wringing over Obama losing blue-collar white men in places like OH and PA, because he couldn't win the GE without them. In the end, as always, the D voters vote D and the R voters vote R.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Sure, and actually listening to them is too much trouble, I guess.

I thought hillary was supposed to be all about "listening"?

Actually addressing some of the issues and policy proposals THEY think are important would be too dangerously close to admitting there is anything resemblng a problem with the good ship Clinton, though, huh.

[Hortensis]

85. Bernie has gained his momentum by hitting one big issue:

Economic inequality and government corruption supporting it. That is both his strength and weakness. Broadening his message could lessen fervor among his base and weaken response in like minds as he attempts to gain further support in the nation at large. He really is between the hard-left rock and the minority-peoples hard place.

Hillary, in contrast, offers detailed plans for attacking a wide range of problems, which makes for less powerful speechifying but speaks to a far broader base of support.

[NCTraveler]

23. I take no issue with the discussion.

But this isn't a talking point from a campaign. Some of our AA authors have written ops on it. I know one person who has thoroughly discussed this and isn't a Clinton person at all. Their posts can be found in the AA forum.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

27. I supported Bernie Sanders. I've always liked him. I think he sucks on the race issue--

pitting economic justice against REAL concerns about race.

That's what's turning black people off.

There's no false story here, and it has little to do with Hillary Clinton.

Black folks--in large numbers--are simply not warming to Sanders.

I no longer support him, and his supporters have been incredibly condescending and arrogant.

Black voters are not stupid, either. We decide for ourselves who has our backs.

Bernie Sanders is better than Hillary, but many do not believe he can win. Much more than that, he loses a lot of POC on the race issue. I don't care how many marches he did with MLK, Jr. I care about his voting record, but I don't agree with his views on race vs. class/economic justice. I don't believe that I'm alone in that sentiment.

Why are there still a good number of the black electorate that support Clinton? We know the devil we're getting.

Charles M. Blow shares some thoughts on Bernie and race:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/14/opinion/charles-m-blow-bernie-sanders-and-the-black-vote.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/opinion/iowas-black-caucusgoers.html

The Guardian on why Sanders must treat race more seriously:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/14/bernie-sanders-must-take-race-seriously-black-lives-matter

Most recent article from yesterday:

https://atlantablackstar.com/2016/02/02/the-black-vote-who-deserves-it-hillary-bernie-or-someone-else-and-why-is-azealia-banks-weighing-in/

[PeaceNikki]

42. Thanks for your input on this. Some good links in there, too.

[Chitown Kev]

69. Bingo.

Every word of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Any time anyone brings up Hillary's problem with young voters, here, they are shouted down.

And the young voters are insulted, called names, mocked, derided, etc.

Which apparently, from the Debbie Wasserman Schultz school of electoral strategy, is the way to "shake some sense" into them.

Not to mention the fact that, on DU at least, "young" apparently means anyone who isn't old enough to have cast their first Presidential ballot for LBJ or HHH.

We're also told that, demonstrated numbers from Iowa regardless, we're not 'allowed' to make statements about Hillary's unpopularity with young voters until some undetermined number of additional states weigh in via actual primary voting.

Well, we certainly have heard enough about Sanders' problems with POC. It may be true. It may not be true.

Once South Carolina votes, in particular, we should have more actual data on the matter.

[whatchamacallit]

34. Astonishingly, this lady is preferable

[libdem4life]

40. Now that's called an inconvenient video/gif whatever. That's talking down and look

at the absolutely dismissive hand motions.

[Nanjeanne]

46. Montel Williams tweet asks the question I've been wondering myself

W/ how well @BernieSanders just laid out #CriminalJusticeReform not sure why black dems cuckoo 4 HRC... #DemTownHall #HillarySoProgressive"

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. Montell Williams is coo-coo. Tell him to stop sexually harassing his employees, then let's talk.

I don't care how many Sanders supporters throw black celebrities and public figures in our collective faces.

If we're not going to Sanders, it's just not happening.

And his supporters--particularly the so-called white liberals--are really digging Sanders' grave with their condescension and arrogance.

I cant stand the woman, but the more Sanders' fans lecture and talk down to us, the more appealing HRC looks.

[Nanjeanne]

52. Who's lecturing you?

And really - you decide who to vote for based on anonymous internet people? Good thinking.

It was a freaking tweet from someone who happened to say what I think. Don't get yourself in a tizzy over it. No one is asking You to do anything.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

54. Some Sanders' fans are ARROGANT. You throw black celebrities in our faces as if we black people

are stupid for not supporting Sanders. This is what YOU did. What was the point in posting this tweet? And don't act like you didn't know what you are doing.

Just because Montell Williams is supporting Sanders doesn't mean that all of us black folk should therefore follow suit.

WE THINK FOR OURSELVES!!
WE ACT FOR OURSELVES!!

We vote the way we fucking want to vote!

None of you people get to tell us what to do.

PERIOD!!

Just stop it!

[Nanjeanne]

60. Who said you have to vote the way Montel Williams votes?

Seriously you need to take a breath. There are arrogant Sanders supporters and arrogant Clinton supporters. The Internet is full of assholes. Stay off the internet if it causes you this much angst.

I don't vote for Hillary because some supporter posts a tweet from some white woman like Claire McCaskill. But I don't lose my mind over it.

No one gets tell anyone what to do. You make up your own mind. But -- You are on a message board. People post. Live with it.

[artislife]

72. As a Latina, I don't find the supporters have anything to do with my vote.

The devil I know is not good enough for me.

That is what Hilary is counting on from my people. Well, eff that.

She is on board with Monsanto which is behind Round Up. That is the poison that is killing the bees. What is this planet without them?

Let alone her war hawk behavior that has killed plenty of brown people in many countries.

I look at my little grandmother apartment that I live in and think how Wall Street started a domino effect which dried up the jobs and I was left holding onto a condo in the poor town near Boeing which I couldn't sustain and could not sell. I can't pass a credit check to rent anywhere except for the people who are willing to give someone a chance. Most of the rentals in the Puget Sound are run by Management Companies. During the aftermath, I tried for a job at Target but they do credit checks too.

This impersonal machine is running the country. She loves the machine because she has mastered it. That may sound safe to many and the unknown can be scary...but staying the course is madness in my mind

What do I care about? I would like this planet to survive. I would like social justice. I would like income equality. I would like the crooks to be jailed. I have no faith she will do anything about any of that at all. But we know she wouldn't be the worst.


Sometimes you got to jump off into the great no thingness as you try for the other side. Because this side sucks.


Why did I answer you? Because you posted something that hit me to my core as truth and because of it, I created an account and joined this site. You have changed your mind. I am sorry about that, but respect it. But I am pushing forward because this train is not going anywhere fast.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

73. I really appreciate this post. I think it's very thoughtful and brings both logic and passion to

this debate.

I am left without a country because I don't support either candidate.

This is something that I'll have to certain reflect on as the primary season goes forward.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

[artislife]

75. Thank you for listening

I know you care deeply.

This world is not often easy for us who feel things deeply.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

49. We think and speak for ourselves. We don't need the Clintons trying to manipulate anything.

The assertion is not only insulting, it's very offensive!

[Betty Karlson]

51. Totally true. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. n/t

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. NO!! Totally NOT true. Black folks are not idiots. We don't need Hillary Clinton manipulating us to

anything!

[LexVegas]

58. Its not "supposed". nt

[Arazi]

59. Sanders does have a POC problem, no "supposed" about it

There's work to do! I'm thinking of going to SC and helping for a few days. We need to stop thinking Sanders' message is reaching everyone.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

76. Maybe his message *IS* reaching people but people are not agreeing with that message.

As long as Sanders and his fans continue to pit class against race, he loses. It's as simple as that.

The Nation article has it right.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. Where is he 'pitting class against race'?

I don't recall him ever saying we can only have one type of justice, or that economic justice 'solves' racial justice issues. And the vast majority of his supporters wouldn't make such claims either, even if there are a few who seem to think it.

I've heard plenty of Hillary supporters make claims like that about him, but never heard it from him himself.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

79. Pitting class against race = the argument that racism can only be eradicated by addressing economic

inequalities.

THIS IS WRONG!!!!!

Please don't make me keep explaining this over and over again.

POC here on DU have been discussing the race vs. class issue ad nauseam, and frankly, I'm sick of repeating myself. White liberals' refusal to acknowledge that racism is a central issue--NOT CLASS!!!!--is frustrating and fucking annoying, and it's turning black people off.

Articles:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/14/bernie-sanders-must-take-race-seriously-black-lives-matter

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/bernie-sanders-platform-revolution-stance-on-reparations

http://www.thenation.com/article/how-populists-like-bernie-sanders-should-talk-about-racism/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/09/23/on-twitter-bernie-sanderss-supporters-are-becoming-one-of-his-biggest-problems/

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

80. Yes, I understand what you're saying, I just don't recall Sanders ever saying it.

Does one of your links actually have a quote from Sanders saying he thinks his economic ideas will cure racism?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

81. Yes! That is his central argument when it comes to race. I'm shocked that you don't know this.

That's why he's in so much trouble with POC. After the BLM fiasco when he began talking about the race issue; his views about economic justice and racial justice were made known. There have been several articles written on the subject.

The Guardian articles that I posted, especially, go into this argument. It's hurting Bernie. And really, I am a supporter, but his stance on this issue is hurting him. He must get honest on the issue of race. That is really the only thing keeping me from voting for him.

Again, I am a woman without a country. I hate HRC and I'm not supporting Bernie Sanders at this point.

Looks like I'll only be voting for the down ticket candidates.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

82. I'll read them then, although it'll take a bit of time.

I've only heard him speak about helping minorities through his policies, since they're disparately impacted by economic policy. I hadn't ever seen him actually say they would actually end racism. But I'll read those links.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

84. Ok, read all 4 linked articles.

And still didn't see Sanders saying what you seem to claim he does.

I saw people INTERPRETING what Sanders said as that, but not him actually saying it.

I see him saying he's focused on economic inequality. Which he is. I saw him saying he doesn't think reparations doesn't have a chance of passing Congress, in large part because of racism. In which both Clinton and Obama agree with him. I saw his saying what he thinks might pass instead, are targeted programs that will disproportionately help black people. What I never saw him say, though, was 'and those programs will end racism.'

So yes, he still focuses almost entirely on economic issues. But the claim that he thinks that focusing on economic issues will put an end to racism or end racial injustice seems to be things people are projecting onto him, not anything he himself has ever said. (Unless you can show a link where he actually HAS said such, in which case I'll have to agree with that statement on the evidence.)

[BainsBane]

63. Actually it started following Bernie supporters

reaction to Netroots, particularly in terms of how black activists were treated on social media. It isn't a "talking point." It's also reflected in poll numbers.

The answers to your questions are available in the same polls and exit polls, combined with basic census data, you insist amount to "talking points." It's not very difficult to find this information. We do have Google, after all.

[HereSince1628]

77. An owner of DU indicated that wouldn't matter in WI because POC don't vote.

He cited information from 2008. That really made me wonder 2 things: 1) how up to date team Clinton is, considering the motives for and evidence of Black activism over the past two years and 2) which campaign has the bad attitude about POC.

[Gothmog]

83. Bernie Sanders And Hillary Clinton Are Actually Fighting About Barack Obama

No one is calling Sanders a racist but there are valid reasons why some voters are not accepting Sanders as a good candidate. One reason may be the vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. I do not believe that Sanders is a racist but I also believe that there are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democrats are not supporting Sanders.

[Hortensis]

86. Obama started "the revolution" without them.

That liberals made major advances in delivery of healthcare is unacceptable and, IMO, is the major reason Sanders anti-liberal supporters join with the far right in intending to repeal Obama's ACA.

By definition, as their leader Sanders is the only one qualified to lead their revolution; and after several months of reading their posts I firmly believe they would trumpet the ACA if it were his achievement. It is not, tho.

[Hortensis]

87. Of course, "POC" don't appreciate this at all,

any more than the rest of us do.