Fuck it, I give.

[cleanhippie]

When douchebags fellow DU'ers are allowed to post total bullshit flamebait
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=22548
and juries fail to deal with it, yet a response that deals strictly with the post and not the poster is hidden as a personal attack
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=22557
because of my lack of belief, DU is no longer a place for me.

I may check in here occasionally, but I am done with the bigotry and predjudice allowed by the the theists. I have to deal with this shit IRL, why should I deal with it here?

Adios amigos.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. calm down.

Jury fails are just that.

[Goblinmonger]

2. That was clearly a bullshit lock.

I've thought about leaving a lot, too, but it just comes back to "fuck them" because if I leave, then they win.

[cleanhippie]

3. There I no "winning" here, for anyone.

It's just anonymous bullshit. Nothing will ever be resolved, no questions will ever be answered, and my blood pressure needs to be saved for the fight IRL.

The growing theocratic movement in this country is being sustained, even perpetuated, by the so-called liberal theists. You know it, I know it, and they know it. Not a single one of them will ever admit to it though, and THAT is the problem.

If I thought for a second that any one of them would ever step up and recognize just how problematic that their position really is, them continuing would be worth it. But even after making point after point, debunking fallacy after fallacy, an enduring bullshit after bullshit, not one has, or will ever see it that way. Cognitive dissonance, and IRL it can be effectively dealt with. But here, with each new day, or post even, we must start over from scratch. It's an exercise in futility.

[Warpy]

7. I just posted what you did without the profanity

Now let's see if mine gets hidden.

That poster is a bigot. There is no other word for it and he's teetering on the abyss rug has already fallen down.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. I also made a similar post

I only used one profane word, but maybe that's enough to tip the fickle balance of the average DU jury. We'll see.

IMO, humblebum should be blocked, permanently, from the Religion group, but it'll never happen because of the current, toothless, hosting crew.

[Starboard Tack]

16. Rug, a bigot? WTF

I may not agree with Rug on everything, but he is one of the more thoughtful posters in Religion. What is this abyss you talk about?

[darkstar3]

19. DAFUQ?!?!

There is just no way to express how wrong that statement is...

Thoughtful?

[Goblinmonger]

20. For the record, I'm with darkstar3 on this one.

One line non sequitur quips =|= thoughtful.

[darkstar3]

23. bums of a feather...;)

[Starboard Tack]

21. Why don't you give it a try?

I'm sure you'll manage it.

[darkstar3]

22. No thanks, Mr. Hyde.

[Rob H.]

25. "...he is one of the more thoughtful posters in Religion."

[Starboard Tack]

27. Maybe you could cite something that might change my opinion of Rug

I haven't read that many of his posts, but those I have read have been thoughtful and well reasoned. I haven't sensed any malice or bigotry toward non-believers. I could be wrong and am open to convincing.
I applaud anyone, whether a believer or non-believer, who strives for common ground and working together as liberals toward a more respectful and tolerant society. I have read many of CH's posts and often the message is good, but his delivery is atrocious and serves only to inflame and then complain when a post gets hidden.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

29. You haven't "sensed" any malice?

You obviously haven't been paying attention.

[Rob H.]

30. "I haven't sensed any malice or bigotry toward non-believers."

Seriously? If you really believe that, I would argue that you haven't been paying attention.

Edited to add: To EvolveOrConvolve: D'oh! Beat me by a minute.

Further edit: On a more serious note, posters like him aren't looking for common ground, in my opinion. He and others have said things that are condescending toward, dismissive of, and downright insulting to non-believers on several occasions, so I don't think there's any common ground to be had, quite frankly. They've even been told multiple times not only when they've said insulting things to non-believers, but why those things are insulting, and most of the time they don't back down and they don't apologize. I'm not going to reach out my hand to people like that, even if we share common political aims, if that's part of the deal. It seems to me that much of the time they want non-believers to vote Democratic when the time comes, but they want us to shut up and not make a fuss before election day lest we drive voters into the cold, uncaring arms of the GOP.

Further edits: grammar & punctuation

[EvolveOrConvolve]

37. I knew I felt something weird in my chakras

Probably the one in my spleen that allows us to mind meld.

[Rob H.]

38. You mean atheists get mind-melding powers, too?!?

Wow, this Evil Atheist Conspiracy™ stuff gets better and better all the time!

[Starboard Tack]

44. So you have nothing to cite in order to back up your rhetoric.

I ask you to show me some example of Rug's bigotry and malice. What has he said that is "condescending toward, dismissive of, and downright insulting to non-believers"? Is it on the same level as the vitriol I see fellow atheists spew at those of faith?
I'm not seeing much tolerance from you and a few others here and nothing so far to back up your accusations.

[darkstar3]

35. "I haven't read that many of his posts"...Go and do so.

[Starboard Tack]

42. I've read enough to form the opinion I gave.

If you want to change that, then the onus is on you and so far, nobody has squat. Just a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[darkstar3]

59. Willful ignorance. How uninteresting.

[cleanhippie]

60. Ding ding ding. Winner!

[Starboard Tack]

61. So you got nothing. OK

[cleanhippie]

63. Actaully, you have nothing.

[Warpy]

26. My dear, you do need how to read posts more closely

and I would strongly suggest you reread mine.

[Starboard Tack]

28. Which one?

This?

That poster is a bigot. There is no other word for it and he's teetering on the abyss rug has already fallen down.

Not sure what you mean. Sorry.

[laconicsax]

31. Yes, rug's "thoughtfulness" is why he got blocked from this group.

[Starboard Tack]

32. What caused him to be blocked?

I'm open on this.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

33. He made an insinuation

That the members of this group were no better than murderers, knowing that the topic (at the time) was a touchy one. We bumped his ass almost immediately.

[Starboard Tack]

46. Gotta link to that? Sounds like it should've been a TOS alert

What was the topic? This is all so mysterious.

[laconicsax]

36. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12302300

EOC already gave the final straw.

[Starboard Tack]

43. Thanks - very informative

It certainly sheds some light on how the group feels about Rug and I take those comments at face value, meaning he probably did not belong here. I've only read a few of his posts in Religion and I saw nothing condescending or belittling toward non-believers. I'd like to see that kind of evidence. There are members of this group whom I hold in very high respect and others not so much, but I do respect the integrity of the group and its importance as a safe haven. But it should be a safe haven, equally, for all atheists and agnostics to air their grievances and frustrations, but also to work on making alliances with liberal religionists. They are our political brothers in arms. So, why don't we all stop the bickering and personal attacks and put our energies into winning this November.

[PassingFair]

53. We "cat fuckers" thank you for your even-handed consideration.

I'm a little bewildered how you "respect" the "safe haven" of this room,
but don't have a problem with a banned poster lifting posts and posting
them in other rooms.

"You sound like someone discovered fucking a cat complaining about privacy when the obvious question is why is somebody fucking a cat.

Don't try to change the subject. Post the "insinuation". Here. Now."

-Rug

On edit: Oh, and thanks for attacking Heddi in that thread. Classy!

[Starboard Tack]

54. Sorry, none of this makes sense to me. Do you have a link?

[PassingFair]

55. You posted in the thread....

Since the post was "hidden" I can't seem to link to it...

so I gave you a direct quote. Here's the post copied in it's entirety:






rug This message was hidden by Jury decision. Hide
112. Post it.

View profile
You sound like someone discovered fucking a cat complaining about privacy when the obvious question is why is somebody fucking a cat.

Don't try to change the subject. Post the "insinuation". Here. Now.
A Jury voted 5-1 to hide this post on Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:43 AM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See Community Standards.)

[Starboard Tack]

57. OK, do you have a link to the thread itself please?

[PassingFair]

58. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=22323#

[Starboard Tack]

62. So he had a post hidden. Used a poor analogy.

I'm asking where Rug made any comments insulting, condescending or demeaning toward atheists in general. You send me a link to a personal feud between Rug and a handful of members who like to talk about him behind his back in a room they locked him out of. Looks like a flame fest to me. If you locked him out, why are you still trying to bait him? And when he bites, you act surprised. You can bully people and lock them out, but you can't stop them reading what you say about them and you can't stop them calling you on any unfounded bullshit.
I wouldn't be surprised if I received the same treatment for not being a "good atheist". Well, not all of us are angry. Not all of us care about changing others' beliefs or bursting their bubbles. And not all of us want to conduct smear campaigns against individuals because of their beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

64. If there were such a requirement to be a "good atheist" then you would have a point.

But the hosts apply the "don't be douche" test and ban people based on that.

[Starboard Tack]

68. Please explain the "don't be douche" test

Not sure I saw that in the SOP.
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that all atheists should be dismissive of believers? Do you think all believers should be subject to ridicule just because of their beliefs? Do you think that by taunting people of faith, we are going to gain some ground? Or, do you believe, as I and many other atheists believe, that reaching out to liberal theists and finding common cause, is a more productive course to follow?

[laconicsax]

70. The ridicule of beliefs is different than the ridicule of people.

Ideas aren't people.

[Starboard Tack]

77. I totally agree. But ridicule is still ridicule.

Not the best way to have an intelligent conversation. I have no problem ridiculing an individual for his actions, but religious beliefs are extremely personal and, as such, deserve respect, if not agreement. There is a cruel element to ridicule and it behooves us to use it sparingly. Speaking from personal experience, ridicule may feel good when delivered, but can leave a bitter after taste, especially when it has no merit.

[Rob H.]

84. "...religious beliefs are extremely personal and, as such, deserve respect, if not agreement."

Sorry, no. I can respect a person's right to believe whatever they want to believe, but respecting the beliefs themselves? Not so much. It's just this simple: the same First Amendment that gives religious people the right to practice their beliefs in whatever way they choose without government interference is the same First Amendment that gives other people the right to say they think those beliefs are misguided, unsupported by evidence, or just plain silly.

IOW, just as an example, I'm not going to respect "Intelligent Design" just because people believe in it based on their religion claiming it's true. It's ridiculous and wrong (seriously, ID proponents believe humans and dinosaurs coexisted, despite literally mountains of evidence to the contrary), and most importantly, it isn't science.

[Starboard Tack]

87. OK I'm with you there.

My bad. I should have said respect the person and his/her right to believe whatever they want. Hardly need 1A for that. If they express a belief that I find ridiculous, I call them on it. I just don't do it in the form of a personal insult.

[darkstar3]

65. Laying on that bullshit pretty thick, aren't you?

It's surprising that you're going to such lengths to stretch out this subthread, especially when you've already admitted that you are completely uninterested in reading.

It's almost like your purpose here has nothing to do with rug at all, but rather with stirring up other group members...

And BTW, why is it that you're here parroting exactly the same "post it" bullshit that he dropped in the religion group? Let rug tilt at his own windmills...unless of course they are yours as well...

[Starboard Tack]

66. Where did I say I was "completely uninterested in reading"?

I said I hadn't read many of Rug's posts and hadn't seen anything offensive to atheists. So I asked for links to such posts. So far, I haven't seen any.
Now you question my purpose. Let me tell you what my purpose is, so you won't have to wonder. My purpose is to have intelligent, fruitful conversations with all who want the same, regardless of their religious or spiritual beliefs, and to encourage other members of this group to do the same. If you think that is bullshit then we are not on the same page. There are members here who appear to want nothing more than to personally attack, mock and ridicule anyone who doesn't share their anger and bitterness toward people of faith. I find that behavior counter productive to the goal of atheists, in general, which is to get government to quit marginalizing us for our lack of belief and imposing religious BS on our educational system. I do not share Rug's beliefs but I respect his right to hold them. If mockery and derision is your style, so be it. But IMO, it does nothing to further our common cause.
BTW, I have no idea what you are trying to imply with your last paragraph, unless you think that Rug and I are one and the same. Care to explain?

[darkstar3]

71. Keep shoveling...

[TransitJohn]

39. I voted against hiding this post.

[Starboard Tack]

11. Your post should not have been hidden and Humblebum apologized.

Your "exercise in futility" methinks has much more to do with your style than with your message. Your message is usually pretty sound, but your delivery is often ugly, as can be seen reading some of your many hidden posts. If you really care about getting your message across, you might try toning down the rhetoric a little and reaching out to the more liberal theists instead of spitting in their faces. Just saying.
Remember, we are all hopefully liberal Democrats, trying to counter the extremes of the conservative Republicans. Squabbling with each other, over matters of personal faith, does little to further our common cause. We have an election in November. It's time to circle the wagons and recognize who the real enemies are.

[leftyohiolib]

4. "they win"? win what? what sort of contest do you think youre in? what do you win if you win?

[Curmudgeoness]

9. Read "The Handmaiden's Tale" to see

what we are facing. It is not a contest. What there is to win is freedom from religion. At least for me, all I want is for religion to stay in the churches and out of my life, out of politics, and out of my government. I do not want to live under the Christian version of Sharia Law, and I do not want to be treated like a leper for a lack of belief in god....or more importantly, the right God.

[Starboard Tack]

17. Excellent question. I've been wondering that for quite a while.

I think the payoff is "Kick Me!" And CH appears to be winning time and again.

[Goblinmonger]

18. I was not going to reply at first

but here goes: I don't mean "win" as in a contest per se. I mean that if we just leave and stop pointing out the problems, then they continue to think they are right and they have succeeded in shutting down a minority voice that has the constitution on their side. They need to know that there is a counter to the position that they hold and that we have as much right as them to voice it and that a lot of what they want and/or accept is not part of the secular government that our founders envisioned.

[mr blur]

5. I missed that - the downside of Ignore.

Clearly a bigoted jury decision, and I guess we've all suffered from those. I have no idea what it must be like to be an atheist in the U.S. but if DU is any indicator...

[laconicsax]

6. DU is generally a bit more tolerant of atheists than the US as a whole.

[Curmudgeoness]

8. I find that DU is as bad as RL in regard to atheists.

I am not sure if it is the way we deal with the discussions here, or if it is that the religious people here are too sensitive to have discussions. But I see just as much, if not more, condemnation on DU. I have been very lucky in RL, since I do not get as much flak as many here report---in fact, I have found many people who admit that they also do not believe in any god when I state it first. The others say they will pray for me, and I just ignore them. Here----no one offers to pray for us. Maybe it is the curtain of anonymity that gives them courage here.

[Curmudgeoness]

10. I don't want to hear any more talk of giving in.

I remember when I first found the atheist group, you were very encouraging to me----and I appreciated that and will always remember it. So it isn't all about your fight with the R/T forum.

I have said it in the past and will say it again----you take the wrong tone in too many of your posts, and that is what gets the religious people so fired up. I continue to advocate for rational and polite discussion from us---and if the religious people want to be disrespectful, it is all on them and it will be there for all to see.

But with that said, I hope you change your mind. That was an uncalled-for post that you responded to, and it was a bullshit decision to hide your post.....just take pleasure in how many people will look at it just because it is hidden.

[cleanhippie]

12. Thank you very much. That means a lot.

Im gonna sleep on it for a few days.

[mr blur]

48. +10

[Starboard Tack]

56. +1 Well said.

[dimbear]

13. A hundred years ago everybody in this forum would have been facing blasphemy charges and jail terms.

A few centuries back it would have been a fire or a rope.

That's progress.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

15. Absolute bullshit

Absolute, fucking BULLSHIT. And sadly, I'm not surprised.

Take a break for a while, even if it's only for a day or two. We need your voice.

[darkstar3]

24. Don't leave. It won't make you happy.

Like some others have said, take some time off.

[darkstar3]

34. And hey, every once in a while the jury system works.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121822323#post79

Damn right.

[opiate69]

40. Gotta admit.. I was a little shocked 4 jurors agreed with my reasoning

[eqfan592]

47. Here friggin here.

[cleanhippie]

51. That DOES make me feel a little bit better.

[Iggo]

41. Yep.

[eqfan592]

45. After reading that thread, I came in here to see if anybody had reported on humblebum's post...

...and I just can't find the right words to express my frustration that a jury would actually allow that post to stand. Did the jurors say what reasoning they had for it? I mean, how is it not plainly obvious to anybody how bigoted that statement was?

But having said all that, I'm glad I found the Atheists & Agnostics group here, as it's really great to have a group of generally like-minded non-theists to at least share these frustrations with at times like this. So please don't bail, cleanhippie. We're all in this together, man.

[trotsky]

49. Totally understand.

And it's one of the reasons I put that bigoted asshole on ignore.

What disappoints me even more than the failure of the jury in this case is the complete failure of DU's allegedly tolerant, liberal theists to confront that jerkwad - EVER.

I can read from that only one thing: they agree with what he says.

Take a break like I did. Then come back and make better use of your Ignore list.

[Rob H.]

50. "I can read from that only one thing: they agree with what he says."

Yep, and he's not the only religious poster who gets a pass, either. Not one theist came out swinging in defense of atheists when this bullshit got posted, and it didn't get hidden, either.

Absolutely second the advice to take a break, too. I left my Ignore list at 0 when DU3 went live, but people have slowly been making their way back onto it since then.

(Edited for clarity. Twice. Must. have. caffeine.)

[cleanhippie]

52. Good advice, Thank you.

[ZombieHorde]

79. We did ban him for two weeks, but I guess that only gave everyone a little break.

As a host of Religion, I am sorry.

[trotsky]

81. Now I'm even more confused.

Was it unanimous?

What were the reasons for the temporary ban, and if he's still doing the same things, why can't he be banned permanently?

[laconicsax]

86. Was he made aware of the block and its reasons?

I ask because when I mentioned it in a subthread with him he basically denied that it had ever happened.

[BlueJazz]

67. I wish you would stay. We need you.

[laconicsax]

69. A suggestion:

Tone down the "dirty" language. Some jurors will vote to hide because of "foul" language. Don't give them the opportunity.

I've been on a few juries where other jurors voted to hide and cited "bad" language.

[ZombieHorde]

80. Interesting. nt

[OriginalGeek]

72. I'm late to this party

But I sure would hate to see you go, Cleanhippie.

[darkstar3]

73. And then again, sometimes the jury system doesn't work.

At Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:50 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

You just kinda keep trying to twist things, don't you? You really

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

No. Just no, dammit. Heddi has made several from the heart posts responding to the offense that was handed to her by humblebum. She has been NOTHING but a class act here compared to her attacker, and for him to now pull the bully's "quit hittin' yourself" is just sickening. This is the kind of thing that makes DU suck.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:57 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This whole topix is over the top so let it stand
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: guy is a fucking troll, can't beleive he is still here. argues like a 2nd grader. this is a personal attack, it's insensitive, rude and over the top. hide it and at least shut his ass up in this thread. ugh
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think the alerter is overreacting, especially since many atheists here
feel free to blatantly insult non-atheists on a regular basis.

Thank you.

At least Juror #4 knows what's up.

[eqfan592]

74. Hey juror 6, if you happen to read this...

...you absolutely disgust me. Maybe come up with a valid reason to support your amazingly poor and shortsighted choice. Oh wait, I know what you couldn't do that, because THERE IS NONE.

[laconicsax]

75. Alert on the results PM.

[darkstar3]

76. Already done.

[ZombieHorde]

78. Deep sigh. I feel partially responsible since I am a host there.

I apologize.

I was really hoping humblebum would lighten up some, but he hasn't. I guess I have to talk to the other hosts.

Again, I am sorry. I really want everyone to feel welcome in Religion.

[trotsky]

82. Sweet.

Nice to see the attitude of "they deserve it" is still alive and well.

[PassingFair]

83. Juror #6

...sounds a lot like a moderator in that room.

Just saying.

I've seen "quotes", and that could be a direct one.

[onager]

88. Hey! No demonstrations of ESP in the Atheist Forum!

I had exactly the same thought. But that's just my opinion.

CleanHippie: please stick around, or I will park outside your house and blast The Marines' Hymn from a sound truck at ear-splitting volume for the next month.

[cleanhippie]

90. Oh yeah? Well I will park outside YOUR house and blast "Anchors Aweigh" !

You Devil Dogs always forget that you are a part of the United States Naval Service.

And we couldn't live without you.




And I'm not going anywhere. :cheers:

[Rob H.]

85. Juror #4

, whoever you are.

[JNelson6563]

89. Must've gotten enough believers on the jury

[cleanhippie]

91. It's almost like there is an endless supply.

[Goblinmonger]

92. It's times like this that make me think all hope is lost, too

At Tue May 1, 2012, 09:14 AM, an alert was sent on the following post:

Quit trolling this discussion with one guy's Tumblr account.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=24319

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Calling another member a troll and a fool is a personal attack, despite the member's claims in this post.

Gee, wonder what made him thing a jury might see this?

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue May 1, 2012, 09:19 AM, and voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Rude, uncivil
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: He didn't call him a 'troll,' he accused him of trolling, which is different. Also he he didn't call him a fool directly. Meh.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

CONSEQUENCES OF THIS DECISION

You will no longer be able to participate in this discussion thread, and you will not be able to start a new discussion thread in this forum until 10:19 AM. This hidden post has been added to your <a href="/?com=profile&uid=163332&sub=trans">Transparency page</a>.

[opiate69]

93. I saw that too... fucking ridiculous

[Goblinmonger]

94. So saying someone is trolling when they are is now against community standards?

At least one person got it and decided to write about it.

[opiate69]

95. only when it`s us mean heathens saying it about

those poor persecuted christians, I`d wager.

[Rob H.]

96. One good thing:

It kept him from spinning off into what seemed like an imminent "other ways of knowing" tangent, so at least there's that.

[laconicsax]

97. Ridiculous

I've been on a handful of juries that ruled on trolling accusations and every single one voted to leave it alone by at least a 5-1 vote. I've alerted on several trolling accusations and they all came back with a clear majority to leave it.

I don't like trolling accusations, but have taken the consistency of juries I've been on and who've handled my alerts as a clear message that calling someone out on their trolling is fine.

Community standards my eye!

[Goblinmonger]

98. But I wasn't even using it in the RW troll way

that so many of the juries I was on use it.

He was internet trolling in the truest sense of the meme.

And I didn't call him foolish like the alert indicated either.

Maybe I need to go to H&M and bitch about it. That will solve everything.

[laconicsax]

99. If you post in H&M...

You'll get more discussion if you slip a complaint about that shit result into a thread about MineralMan.

Sorry, MM. I'm just very amused by the flame wars about you.

[Goblinmonger]

100. ......