Atheists and Misogyny

[mr blur]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#deedfc; color:#00000 0; margin-left:1em; border:1px dashed #7a7b7d ; border-radius:1em; box-shadow:4px 4px 4px #999999;"] Pressuring High-Profile Atheists to Address Misogyny

Some of the feminist bloggers who write for Freethought Blogs and their supporters have been using social media to pressure high-profile atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins to speak out against sexism and misogyny. If you are active on Twitter or read a number of atheist-oriented blogs, you've probably seen people addressing this quite a bit lately.

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking high-profile atheists to speak on various subjects of interest. What makes me uncomfortable about some of what I've seen has been the suggestion that when one of them declines the request or does not respond to it right away, some of those asking promptly declare that this makes them "part of the problem" or even misogynists. This strikes me as counterproductive.

Since this topic has already received so much attention, I'd like to pose a question in this post that does not seem to be getting nearly as much attention: are there good reasons to think that it would be helpful for Sam Harris or other high profile atheists to make statements condemning misogyny?

Would those sending misogynistic communications to Greta Christina stop doing so if they saw a tweet from Sam Harris condemning it? Does anybody really think that the sort of person sending rape threats or making other blatantly sexist or misogynistic comments online is going to be deterred by what Harris or anyone else says? Even if we assumed that such individuals were fans of Harris, this strikes me as extremely unlikely.

<snip>

The rest, at Atheist Revolution: http://www.atheistrev.com/2014/10/pressuring-high-profile-atheists-to.html#more

As I've said, I think this whole "sexist atheist pigs" stuff has been inflated out of all proportion and is, more than anything, a (deliberate?) distraction.

But what do you think - would it "help" if people like Harris were persuaded to speak out against it? I think it would do little but strengthen the misleading claim that these people are somehow "our leaders" and so should tell us how to behave. I just don't recognise, or need, leaders.

[Warpy]

1. You might see things a bit differently if you were not a man.

Heavy handed misogyny is geared toward frightening us into silence and obedience, even among atheists. It is pervasive and it is a huge problem.

Front line atheist writers and others down the food chain who have been notified of their bias should take it seriously, even if the notification comes from mere women.

Minimizing it does not help.

[mr blur]

2. Well, thanks for putting me in my place.

Are you suggesting that I don't or can't understand the problem because I'm a man? Or that I need to be condescended to? Please note that I did not express support of misogyny. Nor did I suggest we should not take it seriously. "Mere women" was your term, not mine.

Tell you what, it was my intention to start a conversation, not to offer myself as a convenient target for mud-slinging. I'm quite happy to delete the OP if you wish.

[Warpy]

3. Uhhhhh

Taking general statements personally is often an indication that the foo shits. However, take some deep breaths, read it again, and decide if it was directed toward you since it wasn't worded that way, at all.

This conversation does need to take place. Men also need to realize that they do see things very differently from the women who are targeted by attempts at shutting them down by misinterpretation as well as by the really vicious stuff.

[mr blur]

15. No thanks, take your condescension elsewhere.

Have you any idea of how pompous and patronising you sound? I guess not. No matter, bash away - those evil men are just waiting to be put right by you.

[edgineered]

4. 100% efforts should be given to this.

Not only would it help the public image of the openly atheist, but it would also serve in an overt message to all atheists that misogynistic behavior is a flaw in the attitudes of individuals and nothing more.

Personally seeing all women in a positive sense makes me want to see more communities like Summers Isle as depicted in "The Wicker Man".

[Ron Obvious]

7. Wicker Man

Personally seeing all women in a positive sense makes me want to see more communities like Summers Isle as depicted in "The Wicker Man".

Yeah, that ended well.

[edgineered]

8. Yeah, except for that part and a few other things

Yeah, except for that part and a few other things that were put in for public consumption and theatrical effect. Things like muting the males, controlling the number of males, sewing the lips of dissident pilots, etal.

A wider understanding of the community as a peaceful non violent society was my point Ron Obvious. The industry had to add repulsive behavior by women to the movie to satisfy the status quo.

[Ron Obvious]

10. Are you talking about the remake?

I don't recall anything you mention in your first paragraph in the 1973 version.

I think the island as depicted in that version does seem rather idyllic (other than the ending). Don't mind my snarkiness.

[edgineered]

11. Yes, the one with Cage

The original is on my list to watch, I understand it was much better. Lee Lee Sobienski played in it and she is one of my favorite femme fatals. "Eyes Wide Shut" is another decent movie with her having a role.

[Curmudgeoness]

5. I think that it would be a good idea

for them to make a statement on the issue. But I am not deluded enough to believe that it will stop the slurs. Christians seem to have a need to vilify atheists, and that will continue no matter what is said. In fact, I would expect to see more comments about how insincere their comments were, or how actions say more than words.

But it might help some of the atheist women who feel uncomfortable.

[trotsky]

9. Here's how I see it.

Faced with the historical, ingrained, institutional sexism of their religions and especially its leaders, their only recourse (because they can't dispute it) is to try and portray atheism 1) as an organized "movement" with designated "leaders", and 2) with the same problems as their religion.

And for some, it's an attempt to bring it around to their "everyone is the same" agenda that they tirelessly promote.

[edgineered]

12. The "everyone is the same" agenda is a foothold

The "everyone is the same" agenda is a foothold in the sense that it is a common ground for discussion. With atheists truly in favor of equalities we voice words of truth and actively promote advancement in this direction. The others cannot move in that arena with the rigorous structure of their religions minimizing their ability to act. Even in instances where they can act, their doings are delayed by the hierarchy of authority through which they must proceed. We do not have such restrictions; our voices and efforts will be first and foremost. We must function within the system that exists first if we are to be successful in changing it.

[trotsky]

16. No, the "everyone is the same" agenda is a wedge as it's being driven by some.

Most notably, there is an individual who tries desperately to dismiss and disqualify any opinion they don't like by labeling it "extreme" - thus insane religious wackos who bomb clinics and fly buildings into planes are "the same" as outspoken atheists like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Those of us who point out the ridiculousness of this equivocation are treated quite poorly.

[edgineered]

17. Your statement is true. Each of us is searching

Each of us is searching for ways to eliminate the favored role of religion in politics of this country. Our public image is poor at best and the media would rather portray us in a bad light than acknowledge the greater good of our activities. Every opportunity to show the public how bad we are is taken. Speaking with couched language and making our way forward taking small steps and avoiding the pitfalls that are red meat for the public is my approach, an approach that I am comfortable with and believe in, making it easy and gentle for those around me to relax their guard and lighten up. Your approach is as effective as mine for the same reasons, as it is for all of us. We must show ourselves not as radicals to be dismissed, but as reasonable voices to be heard. We must also temper the unrestrained efforts of those who do not understand the system as well.

Let us go forward and take small victories.

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. The truly hysterical part about it is, of course...

...atheists aren't raised in a vacuum. They're brought up in societies permeated by speech, imagery, and even attitudes formed in part by the dominant religion. A few prominent atheists hold sexist attitudes. Anyone want to wager a guess where they picked those attitudes up?

[AlbertCat]

25. Tah-Dah!!!!

Also, misogyny is one of those subjects one cannot talk about indifferently or in a way that is "removed" from the emotions involved. Therefore all logic flies out the window.

Other subjects with this aspect include slavery, religion and of course which band was the best 70's band.

But a statement declaring "I do not hate women or think they are inferior and enjoy their full participation in my life and life in general" wouldn't hurt anyone. But, like with those other subject, you often have to remind people what the word means. Like the word "genius", the word "misogynist" has been thrown around too much and is losing its meaning.

[Act_of_Reparation]

33. It depends on who you're talking to

In the social sciences, we talk about these things all the time. The internets, for better or worse, are filled with angry people who vastly overestimate their competency in just about every subject under the sun.

And there's no controversy over who was the best 70's band. It is Pink Floyd, and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.

[JoeyT]

6. I'd say it would help immensely.

I'm going to completely ignore the moral arguments in favor of a practical one.

I'd be willing to bet we have less of a problem with misogynists, racists, and homophobes than almost any other group out there. So it's not like we stand to gain anything by pandering to them, but we stand to lose quite a bit by not getting rid of them. When women, minorities, and LGBT people don't want to associate with an atheist or skeptic movement, it really will become the movement of old white dudes, and won't be able to get anything remotely resembling traction to work change in the real world. It'll just be a bunch of guys bragging about how they totally don't believe in bigfoot. Which sounds like a fun way to kill a Sunday morning, but would have no real value to anyone.

[Cartoonist]

13. Atheist Guilt

Clearly, violence towards women must be addressed. In all ways of life, all businesses, schools, religions, clubs, and homes. The problem I see here is that instead of blaming the man, they are blaming his atheism. That guy who pissed on a church wasn't accused of being an asshole, he was accused of being an atheist. Sadly, there are few institutions where sexual harassment doesn't exist. The solution needs to be about the MAN, not whatever group he is a member of

[Gelliebeans]

14. I myself haven't experienced

The sexism that has been described by other women for being an atheist. That doesn't mean I am immune or that those women haven't been affected by it. I will never presume that.

I think that progression is always good to strive for in terms of equality for all. I do know many atheist women have made strides in educating other women and men. I don't want to see us divided anymore than neccessary.

Lately people that are atheists have proclaimed they don't want Dawkins or Harris speaking on their behalf and I get that because I feel like we are more individual of thought and less like a religious group that uses a doctrine to set standards of morality.
I do however give my fellow atheists that happen to be women the benefit of the doubt but I also caution that having a patriarch speaking on "our" (as a woman myself) behalf doesn't appeal to me as much as a smart scientific woman standing up with or without those men to proclaim that sexism should be addressed regardless of the gender of the non believer. I hope I didn't make an ass out of myself with my explaination. I guess that's how we learn and grow. Fwiw.

[Cartoonist]

21. Role models

Definitely, the atheist community needs women speakers as well as other diverse representatives. I admired Madeline Murray O'Hare back in the day. It took a lot of courage back then to take such an open stand, for a man or a woman. I think perhaps the problem we're seeing is the typical male thirst for power. Some people want to be THE speaker for atheists, so they appoint themselves.

[Gelliebeans]

22. I read a book on her

Back in high school and just loved her.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. A venn diagram is needed with respect to misogyny and atheists and the internets.

It isn't clear to me at all that this is an "atheist problem", instead it is a cultural problem - a pervasive cultural problem on the internet and the convention circuit and just about everywhere, come to think of it. On the other hand atheism is not a philosophy or ideology that explicitly promotes misogyny, unlike for example all major religions.

There is a valid criticism that the "skeptical movement", which includes a lot of atheists, is white male dominated historically and has a faction within it that is openly hostile to any suggestion that an effort should be made to be more inclusive.

[trotsky]

19. And while we atheists and skeptics are willing to step up and acknowledge the issue...

there are some who refuse to do the same with their religions - which, as you note, feature misogyny as an original teaching. No, they'd rather try to dismiss it with a tu quoque.

[Gelliebeans]

28. You hit the nail on the head n/t

[AlbertCat]

26. has a faction within it that is openly hostile to any suggestion that an effort should be made to be

has a faction within it that is openly hostile to any suggestion that an effort should be made to be more inclusive.


It does???? Really?? Where?

[progressoid]

20. Well, Hitchens is dead so we don't have to worry about him anymore.

Didn't he say something stoopid about women a few years ago?

[Cartoonist]

24. New post in General Discussion

Walks over the same ground. Says the same shit. I get the feeling that the growing opinion is that atheists invented misogyny and that it's an integral part of the ideology. I agree with mr blur when he says, "I think this whole "sexist atheist pigs" stuff has been inflated out of all proportion and is, more than anything, a (deliberate?) distraction." The talk is never about how sexism is prevalent throughout society, but how it has found a home in Atheism. I don't mean to create my own distraction, but I am beginning to question the motives of those who slant their stories this way.

How it should be addressed:
Sexism should be acknowledged as widespread throughout all segments of society, including religion.

How it should be not addressed:
Atheists are women haters because their self-appointed leaders say dumb shit.

[AlbertCat]

27. self-appointed leaders say dumb shit.

Are they "self appointed leaders"?

Have they actually said "dumb shit".... or did they just bring up subjects that people don't want to talk about? And/or were deliberately misinterpreted.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. certainly dumb shit has been said.

Usually you can tell it was dumb when the dumb shit say-er ends up walking it back around ten miles. For example Dawkins with his comment about abortion and down's syndrome.

We should just own that there are atheists who say dumb shit, that there is some sort of organized thing, label it whatever you want, and it has some participants who don't particularly care about inclusivity, or whatever one would like to call the problem that women in particular have at events dominated by white males. So what? What organization doesn't, outside of explicitly feminist organizations? This isn't an atheist problem, it is a cultural problem. However, unlike just about all theist organizations, atheism does not promote sexism and misogyny as an integral part of its ideology. It barely has an ideology. One sentence is not much of an ideology.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

30. As far as Dawkins and Hitchens,

I think their misogyny has been pretty minor compared to many other groups of men who write books and speak on various topics of the day, for example, just about all Republicans who come across as woman-haters. I think Hitchens was an absolute hero for exposing Mother Theresa as the huge fraud that she was. As well as being witty and a fabulous debater with a brilliant command of English without being mean.

I've read God is Not Great and The God Delusion. I am a woman and consider the uproar over their statements about women to be grossly overdone. I am not going to agree 100 percent with every male atheist out there. I think Bill Maher is astute and funny. Sometimes he says things about women I don't like, but not very often.

I don't have a problem with men writing books about atheism. I see Hitchens pointing out how "religion poisons everything" and that includes denying women human rights and reproductive rights. And I don't think we need to call them "leaders" like we are all sheep following some dominant male around. I agree with what they say about gods. I don't need to label them as "men who lead me around because I'm a woman" which is the case with much more sexist organizations, such as many churches.

[Piasladic]

31. response

I'm a woman that was raised by an atheist feminist dad.

Since I grew up, I've been disgusted by every atheist conference I've gone to and have given up on local groups (I'm from rural Florida). I've been groped and dismissed when I complained.

Yes, I think it would help if more of the atheist 'leaders' would speak up and not just dismiss people that bring up the rampant sexism that is seemingly endemic in the gatherings.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. Thank you for telling me your experience.

I have never been to an atheist convention. The only place I have hung out with explicit atheists is the Unitarian-Universalist church.
I am female and have not been insulted or groped at a UU church or fellowship. I first attended one 35 years ago.

I'm sorry that that has happened to you. It sounds like some education about unacceptable behavior is needed at those places.