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Heddi

(18,312 posts)
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:56 PM Jun 2014

Just a reminder to the kids in the audience: Just because something is RUN by the Catholic Church

AND
EMPLOYS nuns who oversee the day-to-day operations of things
AND
RECEIVED FUNDING from the Catholic Church
AND
is RUN based on the TEACHINGS of the Catholic Church
AND
is seen as an EMBARRASSMENT to the Catholic Church
AND
is being LOOKED INTO by the Catholic Church

Doesn't mean that something has ANYTHING to do with the Catholic Church, and only a fucking BIGOTED, ANTI-CATHOLIC, ANTI-THEIST, ANTI-RELIGION, ANTI-EVERYTHING, NON-GOOGLE TROLLING MORON would think otherwise.

I hope that's clear.


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Cole Slaw
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Egg Salad
0 (0%)
Potato Salad
1 (14%)
Macaroni Salad with tuna
1 (14%)
Macaroni Salad without tuna
1 (14%)
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Just a reminder to the kids in the audience: Just because something is RUN by the Catholic Church (Original Post) Heddi Jun 2014 OP
Atheists have been taken to the woodshed... trotsky Jun 2014 #1
I just think about the time it took to look up fucking DIPTHERIA DEATH RATES Heddi Jun 2014 #2
I wonder where all the outrage is for the women who were and still are victimized by the Church. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #3
Didn't you know? skepticscott Jun 2014 #4
At least with religion to hate, Rainforestgoddess Jun 2014 #6
I wonder why all of those Catholic journalists keep bashing their own religion? beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #7
The Irish press has been among the most strident critics theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #30
Equality of women is "off the table" for the Wonderpope. trotsky Jun 2014 #5
The hypocrisy is staggering. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #8
What's even more staggering skepticscott Jun 2014 #11
Yeah, wtf? beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #16
they retain hope for a spot in heaven. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #18
So much for their WWJD ethics. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #23
"they retain hope for a spot in heaven" Iggo Jun 2014 #36
I keep wondering the same thing myself theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #28
Awesome post LostOne4Ever Jun 2014 #33
"Later never comes on its own" theHandpuppet Jun 2014 #34
thre is a glaring hole in that dichotomy Lordquinton Jun 2014 #38
I have asked and asked and asked LostOne4Ever Jun 2014 #12
That's what rankles them the most. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #15
Good question. onager Jun 2014 #19
"Winston seems to uncritically hork up an article..." beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #22
I think sexism/racism is a problem, actually. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2014 #29
You do have a valid point. jaded_old_cynic Jun 2014 #31
I agree with your post LostOne4Ever Jun 2014 #32
It's not that surprising, when you think about it. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2014 #35
Good sub-thread all...sorry for the hijack onager Jun 2014 #37
Where is the baby salad option? Rainforestgoddess Jun 2014 #9
Hey you're only asking innocent questions! Heddi Jun 2014 #10
Just go with tuna and pretend it's baby dolphins. That's what I do, anyway. AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #21
Sexism and racism are real issues LostOne4Ever Jun 2014 #13
I am carb loading Heddi Jun 2014 #14
Hey, we're all bigots in some way Lordquinton Jun 2014 #27
my ignore list doubled. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #17
Tuna with macaroni salad, but only if it has balsalmic dressing on it. AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #20
but, but isn't Robb a dingbat... nt uriel1972 Jun 2014 #24
Also, the Holocaust was "not the work of God." Arugula Latte Jun 2014 #25
The pervert is more intersted in our sex lives. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #26
Someone, somewhere, is masturbatin'! Arugula Latte Jun 2014 #40
no word salad? Lordquinton Jun 2014 #39

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. Atheists have been taken to the woodshed...
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:36 PM
Jun 2014

by the Champions of Civility, not for saying that religious believers are all mentally ill, but for simply suggesting that the difference between a religious belief and a delusion is pretty hard to determine from an outsider's perspective.

But vomiting 100 Google links and irrelevant numbers all to deflect and obfuscate and protect the reputations of those who behaved horribly?

A-FUCKING-OK! Go for it dude, you're battling the evil fundie atheists! No civility rules or fuck, for that matter, basic fucking human decency required!

Heddi

(18,312 posts)
2. I just think about the time it took to look up fucking DIPTHERIA DEATH RATES
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:46 PM
Jun 2014

and post them. Along with TB and Dengue Fever and Black Hairy Tongue infestations in the sub-saharan tropical region from 1702- March 31st 2014.

And I think about all of the soup kitchens that beg for help. All of the hospitals that would love to have volunteers holding the hands of hospice patients. I think about how many winter hats for the homeless could be crocheted in an hour or two a day.

I think about all the time it took (lots) to post dozens upon dozens upon dozens of links to bullshit things used to deflect, and I think about the effort it took (not a bit) and I realize why someone would choose to google-troll than to volunteer at a shelter, or a hospice, or help the homeless, or assist with adult literacy programs: those things take effort. Google-bombing is like praying: it's LITERALLY the least you can do in a situation. Why help someone with a real issue when you can deflect from ones you've made up in your mind. All in the comfort of your La-z-boy, with the AC set on 64, and a sweaty glass of iced tea no more than 8 inches from your grasp.

And for the concern trolls who are like HIPOCRIT WHAT YOU DO YOU TYPE NOW YOU LYAR HYPPOCRYT Y YOU NO VOLANTEAR? well, sweets, point to a time where I've made dozens of posts over dozens of hours on ONE subject and then we can talk.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
3. I wonder where all the outrage is for the women who were and still are victimized by the Church.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jun 2014

Other than in the "racist atheists hate women" thread, where are all the self proclaimed pro-feminists in R/T?

Find a few sexist morons among millions of atheists: immediate rabid spittle flecked condemnation

Countless examples of how millions of women and children were abused by the Catholic church:

1. your a bigot for pointing that out

2. those ungrateful wretches were lucky that the nuns loved them so much

3. why do you hate vaccines?


 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
4. Didn't you know?
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:39 PM
Jun 2014

That's all just an anti-Catholic orgy from the Usual Suspects. We wouldn't care at all about any of this if it didn't give us an excuse to bash religion.

Rainforestgoddess

(436 posts)
6. At least with religion to hate,
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jun 2014

We don't have to be racists, as apparently is our default setting.

Also, I had to vote 'no' just to make all the columns even.

Edited - the columns became uneven, so, not feeling obligated to make them even with my one paltry vote, I went with my choice for tonight, bean salad. I may have to change my vote regularly.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
7. I wonder why all of those Catholic journalists keep bashing their own religion?
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:45 PM
Jun 2014

And why so many religious DUers refuse to even acknowledge its culpability.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
30. The Irish press has been among the most strident critics
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 11:57 AM
Jun 2014

Take this latest article from Irish Central...
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/News-of-Tuam-babies-lands-in-Italy--more-lessons-from-Catholic-Ireland.html

But on DU we're not supposed to talk about this or be branded bigots or haters? How did I take a wrong turn on my way to a progressive forum?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. Equality of women is "off the table" for the Wonderpope.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:39 PM
Jun 2014

But it's atheists, not the Catholic Church or its hierarchy, who have a sexism problem.

Yup, sounds about right!

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
8. The hypocrisy is staggering.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:49 PM
Jun 2014

The hatred women and LGBT people have for their religious oppressors is completely justified.



 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
11. What's even more staggering
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:52 PM
Jun 2014

are the Stockholm Syndrome women and LGBT people who love and defend the RCC with everything they have.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
18. they retain hope for a spot in heaven.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 09:51 PM
Jun 2014

or at least not too much torture in hell. Actually it is evidence of how profoundly thoughtless most religious beliefs are.

Iggo

(47,534 posts)
36. "they retain hope for a spot in heaven"
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jun 2014

Don't you see? I HAVE to be a racist sexist homophobic asshole, or I can't get into heaven.

And oh yeah, god is love.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
28. I keep wondering the same thing myself
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 08:17 AM
Jun 2014

Especially when being attacked by self-proclaimed feminists for daring to criticize the misogynic and homophobic dogmas of the church.

What's even more frustrating to me is the resounding silence from so many feminists when it comes to any criticism of religion -- and let's face it, most of the world's religions are patriarchal. Too many either tiptoe around the subject or simply remain silent. I've even brought up this very topic on the HoF and WR&I groups; frustrated, I posted this to a thread on misogyny:

Not just daily political life but daily religious life

In countries around the globe the two often overlap. The fundamentalist influence on politics with regard to women's lives becomes more and more evident every day. When powerful religious leaders preach that women don't even have the right to the autonomy of their own bodies we witness its political effectiveness in the rollback of reproduction rights and the shutting of clinics. These are legislators who use God to justify outrageous levels of misogyny and fashion it into law. These same men who think women have no place in the leadership of the church also believe women have no place as equal partners in the home, the workplace, the country. They know this because the Bible tells them so, at least in their version of it. They've got to preach it in the schools, implement it in the workplace, enforce it in the bedroom, legislate it in the halls of Congress. The following example is just one of the most outrageous examples of how this works: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/02/16/426850/democratic-women-boycott-issas-contraception-hearing-for-preventing-women-from-testifying/

Some might say I'm straying from the topic here but I disagree. What frustrates me is that there seems to exist either a lack of recognition of or an unwillingness to confront the unholy alliance of church and state in creating a misogynic society. We tiptoe around the subject as to not hurt someone's feelings. Well that's just bullcrap my friends and it's exactly what the purveyors of misogyny count on -- that we'll react well, like "women", not wanting to bruise anyone's delicate ego especially if it involves religion, even to the point of silencing ourselves. Right here on DU there are those who would contend that we have a choice -- we can support the war on poverty OR women's rights. We can fight for environmental protections OR women's rights. Etc, etc, etc. But not both. So women are asked to choose either the planet or their rights, or between the poor and their rights, or between income inequality and their rights. The arguments are posited as a choice for which women must make the sacrifice and too often, some do just that. Anything else is called selfish. I see it all the time on what is touted as a progressive forum. The fact that it should be a choice at all is a ridiculous, manipulative fallacy. It's apparently an effective one because once again I find myself embroiled in just such a debate on DU, watching way too many women fall into that same old trap, rushing to the defense of an avowed and powerful misogynist and homophobe because we must sublimate the cause of our basic human rights to whatever causes supersede them... and that list seems endless. I've got news for some of those folks --as long as we are so willing to make the sacrifice there are those who are more than willing to take it. Our turn will never come if we validate and empower the very people whose aim is to oppress us. Those in power will not grant us respect for being acquiescent; they will only despise us the more for it.

If we want to formulate strategies for how to reform a society shaped by misogynic dogmas that are in turn enforced by legislated policies, we simply must face the fact that patriarchal religions have way too much influence in the political sphere. (That holds true no matter where you go or what you believe.) We can't afford to ignore this elephant in the room, hoping that if we don't make eye contact it will miraculously disappear. The more we hint at any trepidation in confronting this issue the more WOMEN WILL DIE. Not at some point in the distant future -- TODAY, tomorrow, and every tomorrow after that. They will die because too many boys and men are indoctrinated from birth that women are lesser human beings, that women's lives and bodies were created to service their needs, that a woman's value can only be measured by the degree to which she is willing to sacrifice herself on the altar of what we are told is "the greater good".



LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
33. Awesome post
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 04:00 PM
Jun 2014

I wish there was more I could say, but you said it all so very well.

I especially like the part about the people saying that we have to choose between women's rights and economics or the environment. It reminds of the people in GD who (indirectly) imply that the democratic party should have sacrifice women's issues and the rights of minorities to push for an economic agenda during the 60s. Its a false dictomy and more often than not a way of telling both women and minorities "not yet, your time will come but its not today" when they know full well that time will NEVER come if people don't push for it.

Only by confronting these issues head on can change be made acceptable for the american public, and only after that will politicians find the courage to stand up for it. President Obama, himself, had to be drug kicking and screaming by Biden to support same-sex marriage and even then, he only did so once the American Public showed a majority support for it.

They will never push for equality unless we force them and stop letting people tell us, "later." Later never comes on its own.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
12. I have asked and asked and asked
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:53 PM
Jun 2014

Where it says one word in the BIG BOOK OF ATHEISM about race or misogyny....for some strange reason I never get an answer.

Funny, there are tons I can point to when it comes to their books. Yet, as you note, we are OBVIOUSLY the ones who have an issue with these things.



beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
15. That's what rankles them the most.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 08:03 PM
Jun 2014

Their straw men are easy to destroy while thousands of years of institutionalized misogyny- not so much.

onager

(9,356 posts)
19. Good question.
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 11:02 PM
Jun 2014
Other than in the "racist atheists hate women" thread, where are all the self proclaimed pro-feminists in R/T?

They only come out when they find OMG EVIDENCE OF SEXISM IN THE ATHEIST/SKEPTIC MOVEMENT!1!1

Sorry, but their claims about that most resemble the movement I had this morning after my bowl of muesli.

For one thing, I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the sexist trolling of women (which does exist and should be denounced) is coming from atheists and skeptics. How TF would they know that? Even if someone posts on your blog with the nick "Sex!stAthie$tDood," how do you know they're not just a garden-variety troll? Or a Christer having some fun with the infidels?

I've been told - sternly - that asking such questions is "hyper-skepticism" and I should just believe what I'm told, with no evidence required. FTS. If I'm willing to forego evidence of claims from alleged fellow skeptics, I might as well sign up for all the unevidenced miracles from Lourdes etc. It's the same kind of (wrong) thinking, IMO.

For another thing, I've noticed that many articles posted by the Google-meisters on that topic are written by one author - Kimberly Winston, a freelance writer with the Religion News Service.

Winston seems to uncritically hork up an article about "sexism in the atheist/skeptic community" on demand.

Which is sort of funny, because a simple Google of her name brings up a book she wrote, currently for sale at Amazon. You might think the topic would be rampant sexism/racism in the atheist community, but...uh...no, not exactly:

Bead One, Pray Too: A Guide to Making and Using Prayer Beads by Kimberly Winston

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
22. "Winston seems to uncritically hork up an article..."
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 11:25 PM
Jun 2014


You have such a way with words!


Andrew Brown from the Guardian is one of their favourites too.



Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
29. I think sexism/racism is a problem, actually.
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 08:55 AM
Jun 2014

You have to bear in mind a significant minority within the atheist movement are libertarians and so-called "South Park Republicans". I have to assume they are represented to a greater degree within the skeptical community; Michael Shermer, Brian Dunning, and Penn Gilette command huge audiences. By their politics alone you can tell the safety of others isn't really a big concern to them. Their right to tell rape jokes supercedes any and all other concerns.

Then you've got guys like thunderf00t and The Amazing Atheist, who have completely strolled off the reservation to make videos about how "feminism poisons everything". And, even now, PZ Meyers is dealing with Human Biodiversity nutcases who are calling him a "creationist" for rejecting out of hand racist shit that was conclusively disproved decades ago.

It's a problem, for sure. How big a problem, however, is a matter of debate. Part of me thinks there's quite a bit of trolling going on, mostly by free speech enthusiasts trying hard to be the next Matt Stone or Trey Parker... and failing miserably.

At the very least, we can say the Winston-fanboy's attempts to excuse religion for its bigoted adherents is an invalid comparison. There's nothing in atheism or skepticism that says one must be a racist or a sexist, but racism and sexism are often codified in religion. Now, when you consider that atheists and skeptics are brought up in a society permeated with the attitudes of the majority religion, is it at all surprising that a few of them are racists or sexists?

jaded_old_cynic

(190 posts)
31. You do have a valid point.
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 01:12 PM
Jun 2014

Speaking as a female and an atheist, there are definitely some issues in that arena. I have been considering unsubscribing to the Amazing Atheist's channel for some time now and I have seen others that are equally strident in regard to the topic of the feminist movement. That being said, I feel that they are not representative of the general atheist population. No matter where one goes, you will always find someone to piss on the parade, so to speak. The solution may be for we atheist women to call them out on their B.S. Which I myself try to do regularly. In addition, a little help from the male atheists would also be in order and greatly appreciated.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
32. I agree with your post
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 03:48 PM
Jun 2014

And if the issue had been posted in a manner more like how you poised it, I would have found it worth talking about and supporting. Instead, we get a polemic PoS posted just to smear us.

It sad, because it is something that needs to be discussed and which those of us who actually care about diversity (as opposed to the people you mention) would actually like to help fix. It could have been a good thread. Not that the Winston-fanboy's gives a shit.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
35. It's not that surprising, when you think about it.
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 04:31 PM
Jun 2014

Opening the discussion to what's wrong with the wider, not-specifically-progressive atheist community would invariably lead to a list of things we could do to make things better. Meanwhile, the list of things he could do to make his religious organization less misogynist and homophobic is decidedly... short.

It's better to derail that train of thought before it leaves the platform. So here we have another flame war.

onager

(9,356 posts)
37. Good sub-thread all...sorry for the hijack
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 05:13 PM
Jun 2014

Jebus Crisco, what a difference! In this group, some of us clearly have conflicting opinions on this subject. And here we are, respectfully discussing those opinions with each other like grown-ass adult people. Not Google-bombing each other with 100 Links or cyber-screaming.

I pretty much agree with almost everything I've read in this sub-thread. Without going into more detail that would hijack the thread even more.

Anyone with enough interest in the subject can find out more on their own. Or they can just politely ask over in The Other Group about "atheism's sexism problem." Yes, that was a joke, and a very bad one. You'd do better asking the Pope to help you solve a sexism problem.

Especially appreciate jaded_old_cynic weighing in. And I've certainly seen her solution in action around the internet - people who spout off blatantly sexist BS getting burned right down to the ground, and quickly.

That's what should happen, and in my experience (anecdotal evidence!), the atheist/skeptic boards are generally better at self-policing that crap than most Internet spaces. Which again makes me wonder how big a problem we really have.

But as I said, enough hijacking and thanks to everyone who responded.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
13. Sexism and racism are real issues
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:55 PM
Jun 2014

If they gave a rat's ass about it, they would not try to bring it up wrapped in polemic bullshit.

If they really cared they would specifically choose articles that don't make these bigoted stereotypes and idiotic generalizations. But that is the point, they don't care they just want to smear us.

And where is the Caesar salad option?

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
27. Hey, we're all bigots in some way
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 04:13 AM
Jun 2014

I'm bigoted against avacadoes. I put little bowls of salsa in front of their trees, and set chips on fire in front of em.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
25. Also, the Holocaust was "not the work of God."
Thu Jun 19, 2014, 01:18 AM
Jun 2014

No, no, of course not.

You can't expect an omnipotent deity to have his mighty fingers in EVERYTHING, can you?

I mean, sheesh, He's got things to do. Yeah, millions of innocents were slaughtered and the loving deity apparently was cool with that, but, hey, the Holocaust wasn't on his agenda, so back off, okay?

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