What do most Christians believe?

[Heddi]

I'm asking this here because any such question in the religion forum would be full of "oh yeah, like you REALLY want to know" and "you've made your views on religion quite clear. You're here to mock. Be gone, witch", etc.

The reason I'm asking is because, also in the religion forum, we are treated daily to the musings of people who are not Christian, but are more than happy to remind us non-believers what the majority of Christians do and don't believe. Usually peppered with heavy doses of "well, that's not my experience" and "in my experience...."

See, I grew up going to a Methodist church in Charleston, SC. Charleston is known as The Holy City for it's large number of churches per-capita (although now that I live in Philadelphia, I can't turn my head without seeing a house of worship). All of my friends were Southern Baptists and so if'n I went to a friends' house for the weekend, chances were good that I'd be accompanying them to church on Sunday morning.

My husband was raised Catholic, and all of his family are Catholic and the divorced ones switched to being Episcopalian.

I have family members who are Jehovah's Witness.

WHen I worked in Central Washington, I worked with a large number of Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists.

Now that I'm in Philly, everyone is Catholic, Jewish, Protestant.

And I'll tell you what these people believe. And I know it's what they believe because 1) I went to the church and heard it myself 2) I have recently asked them out of the quest for information

1) The bible is between 80-100% real. Garden of Eden was real. Noah's ark was real. Jonah and the wale really happened

2) JEsus was real. He existed. There are numerous unimpeachable historical records from the Romans that document his life and death

3) The Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus. The face on the cloth is the face of jesus. --- I have found that my Catholic friends & family believe this most of all

4) Jesus died because that is the only way that mankind's sins were atoned for. Blood sacrifice

5) The communion wafer literally turns into the body of Christ the milisecond it touches your tongue. The wine literally turns to blood when it touches your tongue. This has been stated without question from my Catholic relatives. They have not one shred of doubt that the host and the wine transform themselves from tasteless cracker & weak wine into literal flesh and blood.

6) good people go to heaven. Bad people go to hell. Hell is torturous. It's full of fire and hate. Heaven is where you get to see all your loved ones again. There is a 50/50 split between whether animals are in heaen

7) You cannot get to heaven if you are unbaptized. This has been affirmed to me by 100% of the people I know, and is an activity that has been pushed upon me since I was a child and a member of the Methodist church. Well, not a REAL member, because I wasn't baptized and my sin washed away. My mom didn't like the idea of a child being made to be contractually obligated to God, and said that was a decision I should make as an adult. I learned by age 10 or so just to lie and tell other people I was baptized (when I'd go to church with them) so they'd get off my ass about it. I am not baptized and, as such, shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. I'm also a bastard.

So all of these things were affirmed to me by believers as being intergral parts of Christian belief.

Yet we're told daily in the Religion forum that these are NOT beliefs that are held by the majority of Christians.

Which is it?

What are your experiences in church regarding bible truth vs allegorical tales (I remember in Sunday School being given the "how to retort those evil non-believers' talk and one of the things was "they'll say that the bible are moral tales, like Aesop's fables. WELL THAT IS A LIE The bible is written from the hand of god and every word is the truth, end of story"

Is it that the religionists, and those that carry water for the religionists, are downplaying some of the more....illogical aspects of belief (which is to stay they're downplaying the wetter parts of water...) in order to make religion less....religions? more "spiritual"? You know? Am I making sense...like, religion has such bad parts to it AND add to that the fact that most people who go to some rural church in the middle of the florida panhandle (hardly a bastion of liberal and progressive thought) REALLY DO BELIEVE that a snake talked Eve into eating an apple and a man was swallowed by a whale and another guy lived to be 400 years old and THAT REALLY HAPPENED....like,that's just too much. They're trying to distance the relgiosity from the religion. More 'user friendly'.

Only I really do believe that the majority of Christians in this country believe the bible is 100% true. They see nothing conflicting about a talking snake or 500 year old man or tumbleweed that spoke....

[dballance]

1. Here is a book I enjoyed that takes the view the Bible is not Inspired, not Historical, not Accurate

Re-Claiming the Bible for a Non-Religious World by John Shelby Spong.

The author of the book discusses each of the beliefs you mention and points out how they are scientifically not possible. How the Bible contradicts itself and asks why would these "Divinely inspired" writers get things we can readily observe so wrong if an "all-knowing" deity were guiding their writing. For instance, the Bible says the earth stands on pillars that shake when God is angry. Presumably that's where we get earthquakes. To a person in the middle east in the first century CE or the BCE centuries this probably sounded quite reasonable given the state of their knowledge of science and cosmology.

Jesus says the mustard seed is the smallest seed. This is, of course, wrong. But for a Jewish man in the first century who has never traveled outside of the middle east it would not be surprising that he didn't know of the existence of smaller seeds.

On Edit: The Shroud of Turin is really such a fake. It appeared about the time that relics of saints at churches were big business for those churches that had them because of all the people visiting (donating) to those churches/cathedrals. It has also been rightly pointed out the likeness on the shroud is a very European likeness of a man. Much like contemporary depictions of Jesus in paintings and stained glass at the time the shroud appeared. Not at all the likeness of a first century Jewish man from the middle-east.

Don't get me going on the flood, Jonah, the Tower of Babel and the really nasty, petulant, unreasonable God of the Old Testament. He sure seems to like blood sacrifice and mass genocide.

[Heather MC]

2. This stuff is such a freakin' headache

I have asked Christian how come angels don't come from Heaven anymore, like they did when they made babies with the "Daughters of Men".

They look at me dumbfounded, I don't think most Christians actually read the Bible. They just learn 20 or so good Quotes and then toss them out to look good and Holy.


As far as doctrinal beliefs it depends on which of the 38,000 different Christian faiths you align yourself with.

They can't all be right, but don't tell them that.

The funny thing is, if there were a Christ that actually returned,I think the first thing he would do is get rid of all the Different Christian Faiths. Unfortunately I also believe if a guy came back claiming to be the sky daddies son. He would be tossed in a looney bin

Actually there are currently 18 white men around the world claiming to be Christ. Pick a Jesus

[Moostache]

20. Nothing unfortunate about it (looney bin)...

All one needs to do to confirm this is look up Jim Jones or David Koresh or any of the other thousands of false prophets and phony messiahs...if I had the power, I'd incarcerate them all at the first chance I got because its more likely they are a lunatic and a danger than benevolent or simply deluded.

[dimbear]

3. Statistics back you up, mostly. Over in the Religion group what we have is

liberal Christians and seculars, mostly, and naturally liberal Christians believe much differently. Have to be careful to understand the difference between 'liberal Christian' and a Christian who is also a liberal.

It's complicated.

The other side of the coin is that when half of American Christians say they believe the Bible is the literal word of God, lots of them are lying.

It's complicated.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Can't argue with your observations, since they're pretty much my own...

I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran but always got into trouble asking questions about 7 day creations, dancing snakes and just what was manna anyway...

And didn't Jesus say to the disciples "I will return in your lifetimes"?

The answers I got were pure bullshit and very similar to the answers in the back of Superman comics where smartasses were always trying to catch Supe in a lie somewhere, but the bigger smartasses at the comic always had an answer.

During years of this, and later in life when I just drifted away, it always occurred to me that nobody really took this stuff seriously. Oh, yeah, recite it like you believe it and always say you do, but nobody acted like they believed it. It was for Sunday morning and the rest of the week just forget it because it really doesn't affect you at all. Some do seriously believe, I'm sure, but most just don't really think about it much and their "belief" is more a lazy disinterest.

Still drifting, I came across that French smartass whose name I forget for the moment who said that the bad things that can happen if you believe but it's not true compared to the bad things that will happen if you don't believe and it is true make it a pretty clear choice.

Around that time I read the Boccaccio story about the foreigner who visited Rome and was constantly amazed at the corruption in the government and the Church. Toward the end he converted to Christianity and when asked why he would convert to the most corrupt religion on the planet, he said with this many terrible humans running things and it still grows, there must be a God behind it planning for better times.

I didn't buy either one of those points, but it set the wheels turning.

Eventually, I found Quakers and UU's and that's where I am now.

[truegrit44]

12. I was raised strict Catholic but I felt mostly like you said

"During years of this, and later in life when I just drifted away, it always occurred to me that nobody really took this stuff seriously. Oh, yeah, recite it like you believe it and always say you do, but nobody acted like they believed it. It was for Sunday morning and the rest of the week just forget it because it really doesn't affect you at all. Some do seriously believe, I'm sure, but most just don't really think about it much and their "belief" is more a lazy disinterest."

It was just a ritual I was forced to go thru but never gave it any real meaning or thought and as I got older when I did actually start to think about it I realized the whole thing was a bunch of stupid bullshit.

Except for the bible thumpers and there are plenty where I live, I think most people are just like you described and most only go to church because "it is the proper thing to do" and a place where they can meet up and gossip about all the folks in the small town where I live.
They sure don't lead their lives like they claim they believe, that's for sure!

[Mr.Bill]

5. I am an Atheist, and I believe Jesus Christ existed.

I believe he was a very important man in history and I have a great deal of respect for many of the principles he taught. I just don't believe he was the son of a god that never existed. In that sense, he was a fake, a huckster.

[0zone]

30. Jesus probably wasn't so much a huckster....

....his followers created the huckster image. He was some ordinary trouble maker.

[cynatnite]

6. I grew up conserv baptist...

The bible is 100% accurate. Anyone who says it contradicts itself is twisting the word. If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, it's hell for you...no matter how good you are. God is never wrong about anything ever. God is and always has been forever. God is omnipotent. Blasphemy is the unpardonable sin and I just knew I was going to accidentally do it. And finally...questioning god is a sin. That one was drilled into me as a kid.

There is only one word that describes my childhood and that is: Indoctrination. This is what I endured as a child and why it took so many years for me to break away from it.

[Moostache]

21. Gawd...the ultimate "phone-a-friend"...lol!

Sorry, but I couldn't help but get an image of Regis Philburn asking someone if they wanted to use a phone a friend and some goober from Mississippi saying they wanna call Jeebus...

[LostOne4Ever]

32. Salvation by faith

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]" If you don't accept Jesus as your savior, it's hell for you...no matter how good you are."

I think this is one of the main reason I just can not stand Christianity or its cousins.

Of all the things I have heard, Salvation by faith to me is one of the most self serving, self righteous, odious and just plain EVIL philosophies ever created.

I maintain that any god that would damn someone to hell for making a simple mistake is not worthy of my belief or worship. Such a god is the epitome of malevolent.

I can understand some of the mental dissonance that accompanies belief, I used to be a believer. But I could not and will never understand how anyone could accept salvation by faith and still believe that their god is good or loving. I never accepted that. Back then, I used to feel that the very idea of that was insult to god him/herself.

Now, feeling about 99% certain there is no god, that feeling is only been magnified. How can anyone ever learn about that and not doubt?

Of all the evils of religion I feel that is one of the worst. I can't help be seeing that as being the ball and chain to enslave believers to their dogma. The desperate attempt of an insecure religion to ensure its slaves won't leave. The fear of hell.

Sorry for interrupting your comment, but when I saw that I had to respond.

[libodem]

7. I was raised going to Sunday School

But I always believed the stories and parables were mostly symbolism and needed to be interpreted into meaningful dialogue. I never thought that stuff was literal. I'm glad I was exposed to but not forced to accept Christian teachings.

[RebelOne]

15. As a child I went to a Southern Baptist Sunday school

and even vacation bible school. Then as a teenager, I switched to the Episcopalian church. Then as an adult, I just stopped believing.

[libodem]

17. I went to vacation Bible School

In the summers. We had a small town and walked everywhere. My mom was Methodist. My dad was Mormon. They had Catholic bridesmaids at their wedding.

My mom would never join the Mormon church. It put my dad through the rigors on religion. His father had told him "to question is the first step to apostasy", by the time he questioned the Book of Mormon he also questioned the literal truth of the bible. He became an atheist. My mom never gave up on 'something' more being out there. More like the beauty in nature. Seeing 'God' in a flower.

I was more or less an atheist at a young age. My dad was a very intelligent man and convincing. He liked to talk religion with preachers who knocked on our door. They were often invited in for discussion. He was respectful of the beliefs of others.

I have a bit of spiritual curiosity. It doesn't involve Christianity. I am a seeker on a unique path. (Wonder how that group is doing). Zooms off to check.

[intaglio]

8. I'm afraid the States are not the epicentre of Chtistianity

For example few people in western Europe believe the Bible is 80 - 100% real, that's possibly because the prevalence of actual comparative religious education. Equally Catholic doctrine (which should be "universal&quot is Dei Verbum:

In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things that he wanted. Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully, and without error that truth that God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation
Emphasis mine

The last phrase indicates that, perhaps, only the assertions made concerning Salvation are inerrant. Dei Verbum also includes an escape clause because what is asserted may not be what the words literally mean; calling a man a "diamond in the rough" does not mean he is an uncut mass of carbon allotrope and equally calling Jesus "the Lamb of God" does not imply he had an ovine nature as well as being fully a human and fully God! Of course these nuances are hardly ever told to the congregation.

The real problem you face is that most people don't think about religion (as an atheist my evidence for that is that there are so few atheists*) because they have more practical concerns and they are happy to accept the word of those who they believe have learned more about it. It is the same as many other concerns, few people know how electricity is generated and used but they happily accept the word of the utility rep or the repair man.

In other words asking believers about the substance of their beliefs is a bit like asking Mr Davis, the maintenance man, what the Supreme Court says about privacy, he may know - but it is very unlikely.

______________________________________________________________

* for the sensitive that is a joke, sort of.

[olddots]

9. I grew up Unitarian

the first bible I saw was in a motel room .

I 've asked Christians what they believe and they have only told me what they were taught to believe .

[Curmudgeoness]

10. I was raised United Presbyterian

and I have gone to several other churches, and the only things that I have found to be universal in the Christian religions is that Jesus was the son of god, the only way to heaven is to believe in him, and Jesus died for our sins (that were the Original Sin of being human). I could also add that the Bible is the truth...it is the word of God, literally. As to the Shroud of Turin or communion being anything more than symbolic, I don't recall ever running into that.

BTW, I am baptized, so what does that mean????

[Arugula Latte]

11. It seems like the Christians on DU like to keep things verrrrrrry vague

because their beliefs tend to fall apart under examination. If you press for specifics, as you've found you will be accused of all sorts of things. Apparently it is utterly rude to just do anything but nod at their very fuzzy, blurry, not-really-defined beliefs.

[Iggo]

16. If you press for specifics, then Stalin!!!

[cleanhippie]

19. +1

[ScottLand]

13. I think you're right about all of this but I would also add (in my experience) that most of them

don't really think about it that much. If they gave it a real study, they'd be atheists too.

[mr blur]

14. Well, I only really know two Christians and I don't really know what they belive,

because I've never asked them and they wouldn't dream of saying unless asked.

I know other people who would say they are "Church of England" but, actually, that means nothing much at all. It may be our state religion but hardly anyone cares about it. Bit of an embarrassing joke, really.

I have to come to DU to find religious loonies to argue with because there aren't any round here. The benefit of living in a country where no-one really cares if you're an atheist because, I suspect, most of them are too.

[libodem]

18. My dad's parents

Both immigrated from England. Maybe it was in my dad's DNA to put religion to the test and find it failed?

[Heather MC]

23. i would love to live in that country

I have told people who don't even go to church that I am atheist and they say oh no you need to believe in something, huh? No I don't lol

I never taught my kids that Santa Claus exist. Guess what they don't believe in Santa.

If people didn't teach their children about a mythical sky daddy that loves them created them and will one day destroy them, then God would no longer exist. And we could have a Society based on reason.

[pink-o]

43. Yeah, you guys sent all your crazy Fundies to us 400 years ago on the Mayflower

Leaving all the reasonable ones--like Newton and Darwin--to flourish. Thanks, Brits!

Next time you wanna throw your religious weirdos on a boat to America, tell ya what: we'll take the Druids. Better their pagan orgies, honey mead and bowing to Big Stones on the Soltice than witch-burning and brimstone, right?

[trotsky]

22. Your experiences mirror mine.

Apart from the Catholic-specific items, those are exactly what I have experienced. (fairly liberal ELCA church)

In fact, #7 was probably my very first "WTF?!?" moment. I remember in confirmation classes meeting with our pastor, who was fairly old at the time (~70). The unit I was working on covered baptism and he shared the story of how when he was born, he was a preemie, and his parents were so certain he'd die that they had their pastor run over to the house and quickly baptize him so he'd go to heaven.

What kind of fucked up theology sends a baby to hell if they're not baptized? A mainstream Christian one.

But as you and I both know, only ONE person on DU gets the privilege of having their personal experiences trump everyone else's.

[Rob H.]

24. I was fortunate enough to grow up in an irreligious home...

but one thing I keep seeing (even here at DU--and especially here for at least some posters) is that without going to church you can't possibly be a decent, honest person and you won't have a moral center. It's infuriating because I know for a fact that's simply not true but down here in the Bible Belt if people find out you're a non-believer they look at you as if horns have just sprouted from your forehead. (I also know at least one young Earth creationist, but that's another story for another time.)

[Warren Stupidity]

25. I learned today that none of our christians believe in

any biblical miracles or a deity that intervenes in the world, and that even asking about the implications of a deity that does act in the world is "flamebait".

[dimbear]

26. the mark of a truly great mind is the ability to hold two contrary oponions at the same. time.

Oscar Wilde.(if memory serves)

[trotsky]

27. And thus, perfectly illustrated...

is the phenomenon pointed out by many of the evil "New Atheists" - namely, the liberal/moderate believers providing cover and protection for the fundies in their ranks. How VERY DARE you ask such a stupid flamebait question? Hooray, faith is saved, and no one has to answer the tough questions! Fred Phelps, you go right on telling everyone that god told you to hate homosexuals - we should NEVER ask you how you could possibly know it!

[Heddi]

29. Of course it's flamebait

And I think it was a sincere question, and one that has been asked numerous times before and the only answers I've ever seen given are:

1) God answers all prayers: sometimes the answer is "no"
2) God's will
3) Evil is what we sow from having free will
4) :snort: as if you really want to know, hater

oh and my favourite
5) you have to know true evil to appreciate true goodness

(I've heard clueless religionists tell this to parents who have miscarried, or who have lost a child at/shortly after birth: "God often takes from us so that we'll appreciate his true love" or some shit like that. You have to know pain to know pleasure. Sycophantic, masochistic bullshit)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. The xtians here don't believe ANYTHING definite.

Can't pin 'em down. Original sin?? Naah.

Substitutionary atonement? Never heard of it, therefore it does not exist.

Inerrancy of the Bible? Search me.

God will send you to hell if you're not baptized? What you talkin' bout?

It's amazingly silly. I was asked if I believed everything I recited when I was a xtian and went to church, after I pointed out that reciting, say, The Apostles' Creed, and not believing it makes you a hypocrite.

They want you to think they're reasonable and accepting, and they won't admit otherwise.

They will SWEAR you can be a xtian and not believe in original sin and substitutionary atonement as the starting premises, and then get mad at me after I explain the twisted logic of said concepts for the umpteenth time.

I even had one person tell me that John Bradshaw "does not talk that much about religion in his books" as being a force for abuse of children.


That person hasn't read much John Bradshaw. He was raised Catholic and was a Jesuit priest for 8 years. He talks about how perfectionism destroys people because they cannot live up to the impossible standards of being perfect like Jesus.

They don't admit to any of this.



I told them that moral standards should be consistent and not have exceptions, like the illogic of xtianity. I was asked if secular humanism is not inconsistent. They related this to saying the Apostles' Creed, implying that they did not believe what they recited. Standard xtian doctrines they deny, even when I cut and paste them.

I did not tell them that nowhere in Buddhism do we have to ignore something hateful Buddha said, and say it's a metaphor and explain it away, unlike the alleged sayings of Jesus, like "I come not in peace but with a sword" and cussing out a fig tree, and many, many others.

[LostOne4Ever]

31. I can only speak to my experiences with my family and friends growing up liberal Catholic

1) It seemed half and half to me. My family has an extensive science background and we ALL believe in evolution and they think most of that is mostly allegorical stories not to be taken literally. Outside my family, especially among those who were more religious they thought its all true.

I believe that statistics show something around 40% of america agree with number one. So that would be around 60% of all Christians right?

2) All Christians I have met would agree with this one.



That said, I am not a "scholar of antiquity." I don't know of any of evidence of his existence but going to wikipedia it says there is some, and that the vast majority of "scholars of antiquity" say he existed. They study this stuff for a living and know far more than I on the subject so I begrudgingly accept that he probably did exist.

Further, I believe in science and history. I feel that if most of the scholars say there is evidence then not accepting it would make me no better than the creationist and climate change deniers. That said, I feel certain that he was in no way divine, that most of the stories attributed to him are myths or mis-attributions from other "messiahs" from around that time.



3) My family thinks it is bull. But most of the others I have met believe in it.

4) Every christian I met agrees with that...though they would not it phrase it that way.

5) Again true with most Catholics from the Church I used to go to, not so much with my family.

6) Pretty much all of them agree with this one

7) Again they all pretty much agree with this one save my own family.

I think the people on the religion forum saying that it does not represent the beliefs of the majority are probably wrong. That said, there is probably a sizable number of them who don't believe in those concepts. They are a minority though. A sizable minority but a minority none the less.

I don't recall any experiences in sunday school like you are talking about. I remember having to memorize the lords prayer and hail mary's. Drawing pictures of Christians fed to the lions (I drew tigers cause I was a little kid and I liked tigers better) and at the end taking communion...though they still wouldn't let me have any wine.

I find that most Christians believe its mostly true except anything that happens to contradict what they believe...which then is meant to be taken figuratively.

All the stuff about the earth being a flat circular disk with unmovable foundations and pillars holding up the stars, and water in the sky separating us from heaven and how the sun and moon revolve around the earth? You know the stuff they repeat over and over and over?

The bible is just speaking figuratively....even though they persecuted Galileo over it and people of pre-history actually thought that.

And when you ask them about things like the massacre of the Midianites or moses sending Joshua to kill 3,000 Isrealies for worshiping a golden calf...you get blank stares. BECAUSE. THEY. NEVER. ACTUALLY. READ. THE. BIBLE.



Mention the killing of the first borns of the innocent egyptian families or the children drowned in the flood or burned in sodom or Gomorrah and THEN it becomes figurative again or worse yet....the plan we can not understand.

What a combination. Not having read the bible, believing its literally true until you read it to them and then "OH that part! That is meant to be figurative."

Edit Note: I am defining Christianity as those who believe in the teachings Yeshua of Nazareth and believe him to be not only divine, but at the very least the son of Yahweh.

The definition of Christian can get very loose if you are not careful

[OriginalGeek]

33. MY direct experiences annotated below your points

To begin, I was raised in a fundamentalist, Independent Baptist home. Southern Baptists were too liberal. They let their women wear pants for god's sake.

1) The bible is between 80-100% real. Garden of Eden was real. Noah's ark was real. Jonah and the wale really happened

100% of my fellow church members believed the King James Version (NIV, NKJV, etc... can just get right the fuck out) was 100% the inspired word of God and every word was literally true. No exceptions. Except for "wine". Jesus turned the water into grape juice. Because alcohol is a sin. It's not King James' fault that we don't know the word for wine and the word for grape juice is the same word.

2) JEsus was real. He existed. There are numerous unimpeachable historical records from the Romans that document his life and death

My brother thinks there are tens of thousands of non-religious sources of direct, contemporary writings that contain evidence of Jesus. I imagine most of the Independent Baptists would agree.

3) The Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus. The face on the cloth is the face of jesus. --- I have found that my Catholic friends & family believe this most of all

I don't remember anyone in my church believing the shroud was real - but I suspect that is because it was more a Catholic thing. Baptists don't trust Catholics to be anything more than hell-bound idol worshipers. We did, however, believe explorers have found Noah's Ark buried deep in the ice on top of Mount Ararat.

4) Jesus died because that is the only way that mankind's sins were atoned for. Blood sacrifice

Yep. And the only single way to get into heaven is to ask jesus christ to come into your heart as your personal lord and savior and wash away your sins with his blood... To be saved. Nothing else will do. BUT our particular sect also believed "Once saved, Always saved" and I understand not every protestant denomination agrees. My Baptists believed you couldn't lose your salvation because salvation was a gift from God and God is not (and this is a direct quote from my former pastor - I apologize to everyone in advance for the overt bigotry) "God is not an Indian Giver." So hey, even as an out atheist, I still have that going for me. My brothers get very upset with me when I inevitably say something blasphemous or sacrilegious and then, when they object and worry about my immortal soul I say "No worries! Once saved always saved!"

5) The communion wafer literally turns into the body of Christ the milisecond it touches your tongue. The wine literally turns to blood when it touches your tongue. This has been stated without question from my Catholic relatives. They have not one shred of doubt that the host and the wine transform themselves from tasteless cracker & weak wine into literal flesh and blood.

cracker and grape juice at our communions. We did not believe in transubstantiation. More Catholic voodoo. Communion was an affirmation of faith and nothing but symbolic. Even though it was symbolic, if you weren't right with god you shouldn't take communion. If you are living with a sin on your heart that you haven't asked god to forgive you should skip it as god doesn't take kindly to his folk affirming they are right with him when they know they got some 'splainin' to do. We didn't believe in Catholic style confessing to priests but we did believe in confessing our sins to the lord and asking for forgiveness even though we already were washed in the blood of the Lamb. That wasn't to get into or keep your place in heaven - that was just to stay in God's good graces. Having problems at your job? Kids back-talking you? Car breaking down? You probably are in a state of backsliding and god's little punishments are his way of reminding you to get your shit together.

6) good people go to heaven. Bad people go to hell. Hell is torturous. It's full of fire and hate. Heaven is where you get to see all your loved ones again. There is a 50/50 split between whether animals are in heaen

Lake of fire yes. But it doesn't matter how good you are. Being saved is the ONLY way into heaven. If Mr Rogers wasn't saved, he went to hell. If Hitler asked Jesus Christ into his heart to be his personal lord and savior, he went straight from the bunker to sit beside christ in heaven.

7) You cannot get to heaven if you are unbaptized. This has been affirmed to me by 100% of the people I know, and is an activity that has been pushed upon me since I was a child and a member of the Methodist church. Well, not a REAL member, because I wasn't baptized and my sin washed away. My mom didn't like the idea of a child being made to be contractually obligated to God, and said that was a decision I should make as an adult. I learned by age 10 or so just to lie and tell other people I was baptized (when I'd go to church with them) so they'd get off my ass about it. I am not baptized and, as such, shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. I'm also a bastard.

Baptism to us (And we were BAPTISTS!) was a symbol. Being saved got you into heaven. Being baptized was just another symbolic announcement to the world that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior. Our church had a big plexi-glass tub behind the pulpit and after every service, anyone who was saved could go get baptized (often, annoyingly, prolonging the service well into Sunday afternoon Football). They had robes and stuff and changing rooms and we did the whole dunking underwater thing. Sprinkling was for people going to hell. Poor misguided bastards.

We were also young earth creationists. Dinosaur bones were placed in the earth by Satan to confound us and test our faith. God allows bad things to happen to good people because he works in mysterious ways. So fuck you little cancer patient girl..


That was my mother and step-father's religion and I lived with them so I was stuck with that. I have methodist family who are much more sane. My grandmother didn't even believe in hell. She believed in God and Jesus and that most of the bible was allegorical. My real dad was much the same in belief although not in practice - he never went to church much as far as I knew. My Grandpa is 92 and drives himself to church most every sunday but he will not discuss his beliefs with anyone other than a very generic "I go to methodist church" (His family was descended from Ohio Mennonites so I gather he got a lot of his easy-going-ness from that)...

[onager]

38. Sounds just like my Southern Baptist upbringing!

I was LOL'ing reading your post. It brought back a lot of memories.

Especially LOL'd at the stuff about women wearing pants.

According to one of my female cousins - once when I was a toddler, she and my Mom were out in our front yard, minding their own business and playing with me.

One of the elderly women from our church was driving past, saw a Mortal Sin being committed, and actually stopped her car.

To deliver a lecture to my Mom and cousin about how SINFUL it was for them to be out in the yard, in broad daylight, corrupting my toddler morals by WEARING SHORTS.

The cousin says my Mom cut loose and made the old biddy's ears burn hotter than her imaginary hell. (This was the working-class rural South, a lot more Tobacco Road than Gone With The Fucking Wind.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. From my experience in the Church of England, I would say:

Most CofE churchgoers don't believe "the Flood" was real, and take pretty much everything in Genesis with a large pinch of salt - they may believe that there could have been people on which some of the stories were based, but they can be read as myth and legend - they have messages about humans' relationship to God, rather than being factual history. Exactly what they think about Adam and Eve is a bit of a problem - because it's meant to be important, according to the New Testament, but they do typically accept humans evolved from earlier apes.

They do believe Jesus was real, that he was crucified and resurrected, and, mostly, that Mary remained a virgin when he was conceived, which was a miracle not involving Joseph. They think he did perform miracles, and are willing to entertain the possibility of earlier miracles, eg by Moses (they generally think the flight from slavery in Egypt was real, even if a lot of the details could be made up).

Some may think the Shroud of Turin could be real, but they're not too worried about it; they'll accept that many relics are fake, and it won't concern them if they are all fake.

Why did Jesus have to be killed? A good question, and not one you'd get a consistent answer for. Could be 'a blood sacrifice for original sin was necessary', or 'to show how much he empathises with humans', or 'to show that death is not the end'.

No belief in transubstantiation among those I have known, but I couldn't rule it out among some who lean Catholic.

They believe in heaven, though not normally in any physical resurrection for humans at any future date. Not that many believe in hell with punishment, but the souls (which they do believe in) of the particularly evil might just wink out of existence, or be conscious but isolated for ever (or until they repent in some form).

Baptism isn't vital for what happens in the afterlife - it's just a good thing to do, like being openly patriotic is good for someone who likes their country.

[stone space]

35. I think that asking what most Christians believe is a little like asking what most Atheists believe.

I would be hard pressed to come up with very many specifics in either case.

Certainly not the list that you gave. That's way too specific and literal for such a large and diverse group of people.

Indeed, it reads more like a cartoon caricature.

Christians have as many disagreements between each other as we have amongst ourselves.

Indeed, most Christians will be more closely aligned in their viewpoints with some Atheists than they are with some of their fellow Christians.

[LostOne4Ever]

36. I really really doubt that most Christians will be closely aligned with us

And rather than just state my opinion as fact Ill dig up some proof. Most of this is about America, but feel free to share any entire world data you can find. Either way, this thread asks about our experience and since many (and I am going to guess that its actually most) of us are americans, my links shows that what we are saying are in fact....true.

1) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/feb/16/20040216-113955-2061r/

60% of Americans feel those stories are true. Also note the inter-religion numbers. All of them over 50%. This is a majority of Christians here.

2) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/12/25/most-americans-believe-in-jesus-virgin-birth/

Christians not only overwhelmingly believe he is real apparently but that he was born of a virgin.

3) Can't find anything on this.

4) http://www.rasmussenreports.com/content/pdf/2147

76% of Christians think Yeshua died to atone for our sins.

5) http://cara.georgetown.edu/sacraments.html

91% believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist

6) http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-08-01-hell-damnation_N.htm

59% of americans believe in hell, 74% believe in Heaven

Also: http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/Eternal-Destinations-Americans-Believe-Heaven-Hell.aspx

7) Can't find anything


Based on the evidence I found I would argue that we are pretty much on the money (at least when it comes to America). You are right that there are disagreements. None of the numbers are 100%. But no one here is "seriously" making that claim. Further, I would say that this shows that the majority of them agree on the majority of tenants, but have some minor doctrinal disputes here and there.

[stone space]

37. Who is "us"? I guess that my point is that both Christians and Atheists are rather diverse...

...groups, whose views overlap to a great degree, so that any given Christian is likely to find some Atheists whose beliefs are closer to theirs than some of their fellow Christians, and that likewise, any given Atheist is likely to find some Christians whose beliefs are closer to theirs than some of their fellow Atheists.

For example, Christian who believe in Capitol Punishment may find their beliefs in that regard somewhat closer to those of Atheists who believe in Capitol Punishment than to Christians who do not believe in to Capitol Punishment.

[LostOne4Ever]

40. By "us"

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 03:59 PM - Edit history (1)

I meant those of us who answered the thread and pretty much agreed with Heddi.

It was in response to the statement:

Certainly not the list that you gave. That's way too specific and literal for such a large and diverse group of people.

Indeed, it reads more like a cartoon caricature.

Though if you are talking about issues in general, then I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about agreement on major religious tenants. In particular this statement:

Indeed, most Christians will be more closely aligned in their viewpoints with some Atheists than they are with some of their fellow Christians.

So I was trying to show that this view is mistaken as almost all of us (again, "us" as in those of us who posted) would disagree and argue against each and every point while the links I gave shows that, indeed, most Christians agree with those points. If you are talking about issues in general and not religious doctrines, then you are right. Some atheists might find some Christians who share views with them very closely.

Given how vague the term "some" is, what you are saying is pretty much true for every group that is not 100% homogenous...which to my knowledge is the case for every group of people imaginable. So you are right along those lines.

Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying.

PS edit:

As for your discussion with Heddi, many forums (though not DU) have rules against posting in threads that have been inactive for a month or more. Its called thread necromany, and is generally frowned upon as those posters may no longer be around, or the information contained may be dated and inadvertently cause misinformation.

Again, DU has no such rule as far as I know.

[Heddi]

41. Uah, thanks for um kicking my 9 month old thread :-/

I'm glad in the 15 days that you've been at DU that you found my thread, which would have been at least on page 5 - 7 of this group (since the last posting before yours was August 2013), to be so interesting to you. Interesting. So very interesting.

and if you'd bothered to read my OP instead of just attacking me for creating "cartoon characters,' you'd note that I listed things that believers themselves told me they believe.

I really don't need someone so...new (?) telling me what Christians are and what they do and don't believe. As you can see from the replies to my OP, more people here agree with me than with you.

Cartoon Character. snarf. Much like the cartoon character of the oh-so-concerned newbie Atheist who has been, let me guess, lurking for decades/years/months/since last election and just HAD to come here, find a 9 month old post to kick and start telling the Atheists here how to think and what is and isn't proper to say/think/believe about Christians. Now where have I heard that before....oh yes! All of the "I'm an atheist, BUT...." posters that frequent the religion forum!

[stone space]

42. I didn't attack you, so I'm not sure why you are feeling atacked.

I'm not a "newbie atheist". (I've been an atheist for half a century now.)

And I've most certainly never said "I'm an atheist, but..."

That seems to be one of your lines. (I think I've seen you use it before here.)

I didn't know that you didn't want anybody to reply to this thread.

Maybe you should consider deleting it if you don't want discussion?

I figured that if the thread isn't locked, that the topic was still open for discussion.

9 months really isn't a long time. At least not once you get to be my age. Perhaps it seems like a long time when you are younger.

[mr blur]

46. Look, and try to get this - atheists don't share a "belief"!

Any "beliefs" I might share with others that I know don't exist because we're atheists

You seem to be treading very close to the Fundy "It takes more faith to believe in evolution than in God, so atheism must be a religion!" garbage. We don't believe in evolution any more than we believe in mathematics or the Law of Gravity.

You seem to be inordinately fond of Christians and their beliefs, for such a self-identifying "Atheist". Which, of course, is your business. But it would be rather unrealistic to expect other atheists here to share your admiration, and then get annoyed when we don't.

[onager]

39. Glad you posted this.

I've often wondered the same thing about that group.

All the believers in there seem to define themselves by what they DON'T believe, rather than what they DO believe. Is this a new trend - Negative Xianity?

They're squishier than a rotten banana about their beliefs. I guess part of that is just that they don't want to be pinned down. Which gives them a tactical advantage, in that they can freely defend any piece of religious stupidity with their trademarked: "I don't believe that but many people do" etc.

Anyway, I'd say that when it comes to debate, many of them have reached their goal of being more mediocre. Cough...

[progressoid]

44. My parents believe #1 & 2. And a variation of #4.

#3 & 5 seem to be more of a Catholic thing and they are Protestants so the don't believe that.

Not sure where they stand on 6 & 7.



Edit: Just saw that this is an old thread. Not that that really makes any difference to my answer.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. Fuck if I know.

I keep getting told that I can't have a basis for my morality, because morality comes from god, but all these different believers all believe different shit, so it's all hopeless.