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Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:28 AM

fascinating article by Juan Cole

what a joy it is to read a historian write about something he/she knows. Especially when the topic is christianity - muslim religions (and how their early days were so murky).

Here's a sample:

First of all, we know very little about the lives of Jesus (d. circa 30-33 CE) or Muhammad (d. 632 CE). As a historian, I’m looking for early sources and diverse sources. The earliest manuscripts of the New Testament are second century, and in Greek rather than in the original Aramaic (some ideas may have changed radically with the translation– the Aramaic almost certainly did not have the phrase ‘son of God.’) There are many variants among the manuscripts and among the Gospels. Did Mark even know about a resurrection? There are even questions about what sources early Christians accepted (is the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas a Gospel?) All of the extant accounts of Jesus obviously come from a small number of early Christian communities. There is no early outside source. We historians want accounts coming from several different sources.

Amazingly, 600+ years later, there were outside sources discussing Muhammed, something the christians sorely lack.

Here's the cite. http://www.juancole.com/
A very interesting read. Especially how growing numbers of ".....istan" peoples are doing without religion.

I just hope his conclusion, that 200 yrs from now both those religions will be dead. They've caused enough pain and suffering by now, haven't they?

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Arrow 8 replies Author Time Post
Reply fascinating article by Juan Cole (Original post)
ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 OP
trotsky Apr 2013 #1
dimbear Apr 2013 #5
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #7
Bolo Boffin Apr 2013 #2
ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #3
dimbear Apr 2013 #4
ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #6
ConcernedCanuk Apr 2013 #8

Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Original post)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 08:38 AM

1. I am pretty certain he is wrong. Both religions will still be around in 200 years.

They will be weakened - Christianity more than Islam, I think. But they will still command huge numbers of followers.

But the world has definitely changed, and religion will never be as central to people's lives as it once was.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:44 PM

5. If any people are still around, probably they will be too.

Hope springs eternal, tho.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 07:57 PM

7. He actually says:

It is not impossible that modern consumerism, individualism and technology might gradually undermine religion, so that 200 years from now neither Christianity nor Islam will be central to most peoples’ lives.


So it's not really "they will be dead". "Neither Christianity nor Islam will be central to most peoples’ lives" can already be said about many European countries.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Original post)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 09:08 AM

2. Scholars are pretty sure the New Testament books we have were composed originally in Greek.

There may have been a couple of underlying documents in Aramaic. The most recognized one is Q, a hypothetical document of sayings of Jesus. The authors of Matthew and Luke appear to have used Mark and Q to write their gospels, both without being aware of the other one writing. But most of the NT authors even used the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures when quoting them.

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Response to Bolo Boffin (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 09:16 AM

3. Attic Greek, at that.

Nothing close to modern Greek.


The Vulgate's impact was huge, even though contemporaries recognized the license Jerome employed in his translations. At least, until, politics intruded and rewrote the whole damned thing.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:42 PM

4. No offense, but I think you mean koine Greek.

Koine, the rundown, simplified common speech of the eastern world.

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Response to dimbear (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 06:39 PM

6. You are correct. I sit corrected.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:37 PM

8. "Religion" - a curious phenomenon only "man" subscribes to

 

.
.
.

Millions have been slaughtered over the millenniums because others did not believe as the people in power did.

USA has "In God We Trust" printed on their currency.

BULLSHIT!

They trust their bombs.

Agnostics however, differentiate from atheists in that they do not deny there is a "superior" being,

just do not know who/what that is.

I was raised as a Christian, sort of. Taken to church every Sunday, sang in 2 different church choirs (didn't mind that part, I like singing) - then in my mid teens my mother started dragging us around to Quakers groups, "Friends" meetings and so on.

In the late 70's I lived in San Diego - got exposed to the Baha'i faith, Scientology and so on . .

On my return, I was again revisited by Jehovah's Witness knocking at my door.

The JW caught me one morning hung over, but lucid, and with an attitude (mine).

After listening to them for a short time telling me I was gonna burn in hell if I did not subscribe to their belief, I informed them of my exposure to many different beliefs.

Told them I do not have time to check out all the religions in the World, -

I figure I'll just live an honest life, treat people well,

and if the spirits that be, or may not be,

do not like me -

well, so be it . . .


CC

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