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Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:40 AM

"I never heard this said, it can't be true"

I'm amazed after hearing an argument from some Catholics that because they haven't encountered the ol' "Jews murdered Jesus" rant (mostly from Catholics in my experience) it can't be true. And that just because I've heard it personally from a RANDOM church, I must have found the ONLY CHURCH IN THE WORLD that says it. Also the fact that I've heard it on main stream music albums means nothing. Plus you know Catholics had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Nothing. Despite the Church's ignoring what was happening if not outright facilitating it.
Does nobody read history these days? Of course one religion bashing another doesn't happen anymore and never did especially it its MY religion. Ugh. Never forget, except lets ignore the root causes because religion doesn't do any harm to anyone.

I really try to be tolerant of believers but SOMETIMES their willful ignorance just pisses me off badly.

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Arrow 15 replies Author Time Post
Reply "I never heard this said, it can't be true" (Original post)
TZ Dec 2012 OP
trotsky Dec 2012 #1
TZ Dec 2012 #4
dmallind Dec 2012 #12
AnotherMcIntosh Dec 2012 #2
BillStein Dec 2012 #3
Phillip McCleod Dec 2012 #10
onager Dec 2012 #5
dimbear Dec 2012 #6
DetlefK Dec 2012 #7
TZ Dec 2012 #8
DetlefK Dec 2012 #9
TZ Dec 2012 #14
DetlefK Dec 2012 #15
Phillip McCleod Dec 2012 #11
JNelson6563 Dec 2012 #13

Response to TZ (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:34 AM

1. Willful ignorance indeed.

They are conditioned for it. Catholics are in a tough spot. Most of them I've met seem to have a chip on their shoulders about their church supposedly being the "original" church, or at least the oldest or most "majestic" or whatever. I guess you gotta be into gold thrones and fancy red shoes or something.

But with that distinction comes all the nasty, horrible history. To deal with that, it seems that many just put on the blinders and pretend that their church has been noble and pure all along, it was just a few bad apples here and there who occasionally did something questionable.

But the long and sordid history of anti-Semitism in the Catholic church is a matter of fact, and undeniable. Here's a fun collection of quotes and actions from some notable RCC figures:

http://shatteredparadigm.blogspot.com/2008/07/brief-history-of-roman-catholic-anti.html

It is sad to meet Catholics who deny this, because you can't help but think of the old saying about learning from history. Maybe that's why it's been a part of the Catholic story their entire existence.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:13 PM

4. The naivete of also thinking

that this shit doesn't go on today infuriates me. This all started cause some Catholic girl on twitter started whining about the people making jokes about the Pope's twitter account was just horrible. Yes, jokes on twitter> anti-semitism. Yep.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:44 AM

12. Funny - the official Tridentine Mass until V2

called for the conversion of "the perfidious Jew". This incidentally was nigh two decades AFTER WW2....

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Response to TZ (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:37 AM

2. Isn't intolerance commanded by the 1st of the 10 commandments?

 

Aren't true believers commanded to be intolerant?

Wasn't intolerance a major difference between Mithraism and Christianity? And a reason why Christianity edged out Mithraism?

Intolerance appears to be part of the Christianity DNA. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. If you remove that portion of the DNA, you don't have Christianity.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #2)


Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:32 AM

10. mithraism was intolerant too

 

more significantly mithra's public counterpart sol invictus was intolerant, as mithraism was practiced in secret by the roman upper class and sol worship was for the public. christianity grew at a much faster rate than sol invictus and constantine just saw the 'writing on the wall' or rather the cross the sun. basically religions are intolerant.

that said, yeah intolerance is built into christian doctrine. sexism is one example, anti-semitism another.

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Response to TZ (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:44 PM

5. A Xmas shopping tip for you...

Here's a book you might want to consider for your Catholic friends. And it's in stock right now!

No, I do not have stock in Amazon. But I learned a lot from this book, much of it horrifying. Some of the ugliest anti-Semitism in the book was printed in the official Vatican newspapers. And it was still there in the archives.

The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism by David I. Kertzer

In this meticulously researched, unflinching, and reasoned study, National Book Award finalist David I. Kertzer presents shocking revelations about the role played by the Vatican in the development of modern anti-Semitism. Working in long-sealed Vatican archives, Kertzer unearths startling evidence to undermine the Church’s argument that it played no direct role in the spread of modern anti-Semitism. In doing so, he challenges the Vatican’s recent official statement on the subject, "We Remember." Kertzer tells an unsettling story that has stirred up controversy around the world and sheds a much-needed light on the past.

http://www.amazon.com/Popes-Against-Jews-Vaticans-Anti-Semitism/dp/0375706054

I've just finished reading Anthony Beevor's book about the Spanish Civil War from 1936-39, The Battle for Spain. The Church got a lot of mud on its cassocks in that war, too, most of it self-splattered. e.g., when liberal American Catholics spoke out against the terror-bombing of Spanish cities like Guernica, the Vatican threatened to excommunicate them. (And hinted they were Communists, of course.)

And part of the deal between Franco and the Vatican was that the Church would have total control over education in Spain. Soon as the war ended, the Spanish Church purged the nation's schools of anyone to the left of Hermann Goering (whose aircraft, along with Mussolini's, were responsible for most of the terror bombings).

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Response to TZ (Original post)

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:33 PM

6. Erasing this part of history has been quite a big project for the RCC. It's getting harder since

internet came by. Well funded, tho. Money never seems to be a problem for a good cause like that.

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Response to TZ (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 06:44 AM

7. Vatican and Holocaust

No, catholics per se had nothing to do with the holocaust.

The vatican knew what was going on: It got a detailed report of the Warsaw ghetto from a priest. It was written in latin so the Nazis would regard it as a religious text upon inspection.

Pius XII chose to ignore the holocaust for a very simple reason: survival of his institution. The Nazis weren't particular fans of the church. They wanted to replace Christmas with a bonfire-celebration of the winter-solstice. (Maybe another case of the Nazis rewriting history: I don't think the ancient germans celebrated the winter-solstice.)

AND the Nazis already had a plan to get rid of the Vatican: Some "terrorists" would fight their way into the vatican and take the pope hostage. Then the Nazis would storm in, but the pope would "accidentally" die in the ensuing gun-fire. The plan never got farther than a theoretical stage, but Goebbels even attached an order to it, to "rescue" all the vatican's treasures and pieces of art after the pope's death and bring them to "safety" in Germany.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 07:44 AM

8. Link?

Sources? Its well known that the Church's position was and still isthat Jews murdered Jesus- . Other churches ALSO preached this. Do you think Hitler's dislike for Jews came out of a vacuum? No. It came from years of this anti-semitism being pushed by the CC and other Christian churches. And Pius much like the current Pope were both cowardly and just didn't give a damn. John-Paul 2 actually helped save holocaust victims, him I respect. But no, the Church just didn't give a bleep about Christ killers.

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Response to TZ (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:31 AM

9. Hitler was a traumatized veteran

To be blunt, I don't care that much about the church's policies toward jews.
On the other hand, historically speaking, Christianity began as a jewish sect. It was more inclusive, easier to join, with a simpler message and less burdensome rituals. Christianity was Judaism-light. This was a problem for early Christians as the holy scriptures of their religion were the holy scriptures of another religion. That's the reason why they had to rile up rivalry/antipathy towards the jews: As a means to gain their independence.

Yes, Pius XII was a coward, but if he had spoken out, the Nazis would have wiped out the Vatican.

Hitler's dislike for jews was a result of paranoia and trauma, not religious doctrine:
He was a young soldier in WWI, pushed up with propaganda and thrown into the meatgrinder. Defeat was never an option. And then, all of a sudden, Germany capitulated and signed the (peace-)treaty of Versailles. The "Dolchstoßlegende" (dagger-stab-legend) was born: The soldiers could have won, but the powers back in the homeland betrayed them.
Hitler returned to Austria with this feeling of betrayal and witnessed the communist demonstrations: Those evil-doers threatened another pillar of his worldview, the bourgeois society. That's where his anti-communism came from (communists as destroyers of what's good). That's what deepened his paranoia.
Anti-semitism has existed in Europe since medieval times. (See Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice") They were forbidden from buying land and were not allowed to join workers-guilds. That's why jews were pushed into taking white-collar-jobs: doctors, lawyers, traders, bankers. They built connections, they got rich, but there was always this anti-semitism under the surface that kept them from being fully absorbed into society.
Nowadays, international corporations are the bogeyman. After all, the are not like you, they are sketchy, they have influence and they are rich.
In Hitler's times there was this urban myth that the jews ("Weltjudentum") control all of the banks in the world. They are this mysterious, invisible power that turned the world into a bad place.
Combine this with the popular misunderstandings of Darwin's theory of evolution that lifted racism to the ranks of respected science during these decades.

Hitler had more than enough reasons to blame the Jews for all this evil that happened to him and in the world, but none of them was religious.

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Response to DetlefK (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 14, 2012, 08:29 AM

14. Hitler would have wiped out the Vatican?

Despite the fact that it was in his fascist ally country of Italy? Please. Spare me the horseshit. Plus you saying "you don't give a damn about the Church's policies towards Jews" is very CATHOLIC of you. Yes, lets not examine the roots of the holocaust. Thats not fucking important. Oy.
BTW, anti-Semitism in Europe existed and was common WAAAAY before Hitler was born. Read Shakespeare sometime.

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Response to TZ (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:32 AM

15. You underestimate the hunger for power

First, yes the Nazis disliked the catholic church and hedged a plan to kill the pope.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19840_5-nazi-plans-that-prove-they-were-dumber-than-you-think.html
http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/25th-october-1974/2/goebbels-had-plan-to-involve-vatican

Italy was a fascist ally of Germany? Wow, that never-ever occurred to me.
What do you think, how much italian fascists cared about the Catholic Church?
What do you think, how much Teabaggers, those self-proclaimed hardcore-christians, care about the teachings of Jesus Christ? ("Be excellent to each other.")
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/12/13/1322311/cuccinelli-church/
What do you think, how much respect a REALLY power-hungry, crazed asshole would give to a religious institution?
What do you think, how nice fascists are to those who dare to step out of line?
Do you think, they would beat them up and put them on trial for being conspirators and enemies of the state?




1. Indeed, I don't give a damn about the catholic church's policies. Your deduction that this automatically qualifies me as being a catholic myself is ridiculous on its face. (And you putting the word in caps reminds me of a church-lady comedy-skit:"Could it be SATAN?")
2. Contrary to your assumption, I do care about the roots of the holocaust, as evidenced by my post above.
3. Yes, anti-semitism existed before Hitler... I also wrote that in the post above...




Okay, I did my share, now it's your turn:
Please provide some links that lead to the argument that the anti-semitism of the Third Reich was at least partly based on the religious doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Thanks in advance.

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Response to TZ (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 09:43 AM

11. pope ratzinger only recently apologized for blaming jews

 

long overdue but it verifies that until recently the rcc did blame them and no doubt there are many holdouts who still do.

here's an article on the pope's apology:
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=44862

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Response to TZ (Original post)

Thu Dec 13, 2012, 03:31 PM

13. Good thread.

I have appreciated the many thoughtful posts in this thread.

I just want to add a perspective that I haven't seen weigh in yet.

As you may know I grew up Catholic. Went to Catholic school too. Church and school were safe havens for me and I think I was very fortunate to have landed in a pretty liberal parish.

I never heard an ill word about any other religion. Not other Christian sects, Jews or Muslims. I was told that, basically, we all worship the same god & that was about it.

It wasn't until I really got into history much later in life that I learned about the role the Catholic church had played in misery for the Jews during medieval times. I have to say I don't know their nastiness wasn't topped by a few "enlightened" leaders during the reformation (yeah Luther, you hateful wretch, I'm thinkin' of you) but that's neither her nor there.

But, getting back to my original point, it really is possible to grow up in the Catholic bubble and not be at all aware of the hateful history of the Church.

In closing, while still a believer, as a young mother I was shocked at the hostility others had been raised with toward other faiths. My (now ex) husband was raised Luthern, including schools, and was fed a steady diet of anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Julie

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