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RandySF

(58,728 posts)
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:54 AM Jun 2015

Are killer whales persons?

That is the essence of the challenge the killer whales pose to humans, especially those humans who hold them captive. But it is also a larger challenge to all of us, especially if we endeavor to take our role as stewards of the world in which we live seriously. It is a strange and alien concept in a world dominated by Western thought, in which humans have historically been regarded as exceptional beings apart from nature and in which all nonhuman occupants of the world are considered animals, at best property and at worst vermin, the extermination of which is required for the sake of human well-beings.

“Right now, there is no one besides a human who is a person,” says dolphin scientist and ethicist Lori Marino. “They’re all property, no matter how complex they are, no matter how much we love them. They have no inherent rights of their own.”

Yet the more we learn about dolphins in general, and killer whales in particular, the more that our assumption of innate superiority looks like a presumption. Orcas, with their big brains, complex social structures, mysterious communications, and mind-boggling sixth sense, by their very existence, challenge the long-standing belief that human beings are the planet’s only intelligent occupants. Social life for killer whales, as we have seen, is deeper and more omnipresent than it is for humans; their identities are defined by their families and tribal connections; and their empathy is powerful enough to extend to other species. If orcas have established empathy as a distinctive evolutionary advantage, it might behoove a human race awash in war and psychopathy to pay attention.

We’ve also learned that these creatures have rich emotional lives. Their brains are extremely developed in the areas associated with emotional learning, and their tight social arrangement, in which family bonds remain for life, is complex and sophisticated. They also have a demonstrated capacity for empathy. Nor, for that matter, is this only true of dolphins and cetaceans generally. The more we learn about a number of creatures that have always been deemed non-persons by dint of their nonhuman status, the more their emotional lives are being revealed: chimpanzees and all the great apes, elephants, even cats and dogs and pigs and cattle, all have more developed emotional centers than we had previously supposed.


http://www.salon.com/2015/06/27/are_killer_whales_persons_the_more_we_learn_about_orcas_the_more_our_assumption_of_innate_superiority_looks_like_a_presumption/

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Are killer whales persons? (Original Post) RandySF Jun 2015 OP
Yes, deathrind Jun 2015 #1
No modern and forethinking definition of "person" would require "human only". nt greyl Jun 2015 #2
+1 n/t Alkene Jun 2015 #12
I don't think they are persons. MADem Jun 2015 #3
What's your definition of person? greyl Jun 2015 #5
Let's start with the obvious...they need to be homo sapiens. MADem Jun 2015 #8
Obvious in an infantile sense, maybe, but not justified. That's a foregone conclusion. nt greyl Jun 2015 #11
I come from the "words have meanings" school of thought. MADem Jun 2015 #14
Like I don't? greyl Jun 2015 #16
I'm rather surprised that you're taking offense, given you MADem Jun 2015 #17
Right, you couldn't imagine... nt greyl Jun 2015 #18
Quite right--I couldn't. I don't see a need for name calling simply MADem Jun 2015 #19
Hate to break this to you... you aren't a homo sapiens. DetlefK Jun 2015 #27
I'm from multiple regions, not just Europe, though I have some MADem Jun 2015 #28
Can you prove that you are a person? DetlefK Jun 2015 #29
I think it depends on how we define personhood. RandySF Jun 2015 #6
Well, then they are self-actualized beings who are dolphins, then--but not MADem Jun 2015 #9
if corporations are people, why not killer whales? elehhhhna Jun 2015 #22
I try never to get stuck on the meanings of words. Words are very shifty things. hunter Jun 2015 #24
I don't agree about the "marriage" word. All marriage means is "union." MADem Jun 2015 #25
I'm not going to repeat everything you've said on this post simply because you've.. BlueJazz Jul 2015 #32
Thank you!!! MADem Jul 2015 #33
“Right now, there is no one besides a human who is a person,” Huh? Citizens United has made valerief Jun 2015 #4
also +1 n/t Alkene Jun 2015 #13
Maybe that awful decision can do some good BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #15
One of the TV commercials on for GE right now is boasting about their Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #21
Or what about the booms Obama approved? BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #23
No, they aren't persons awoke_in_2003 Jun 2015 #7
Human superiority has always been a myth. Live and Learn Jun 2015 #10
we are superior in several measurable ways qazplm Jul 2015 #34
I suspect all cetaceans are. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #20
So, how shall we define a person in the broadest sense? DetlefK Jun 2015 #26
No qazplm Jul 2015 #30
we have to keep our minds open RussBLib Jul 2015 #31
Only if they can rise above their cetacean. Orrex Jul 2015 #35

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. I don't think they are persons.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:45 AM
Jun 2015

I think they're intelligent, though.

I know of a few "persons" who aren't very smart--some of them were running around demonstrating with their confederate flags, today!

Personhood and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.

Ask my dog. She's pretty smart, too.

greyl

(22,990 posts)
5. What's your definition of person?
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:46 AM
Jun 2015

What are the necessary requirements for personhood?

By what measure have you ruled out Orcinus orca?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
14. I come from the "words have meanings" school of thought.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:43 AM
Jun 2015

If we want to use terms like "self actualized" or quantify "intelligence," in describing animals that are sharper than we gave them credit previously, fine.

But, to me, a person is a human being--and I don't care what Citizen's United says. I think that was a boneheaded decision--corporations may be made up of people, but they aren't "people." They're corporations.

greyl

(22,990 posts)
16. Like I don't?
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:11 AM
Jun 2015

Please excuse us, we'll be over here entertaining broader interpretations of "Personhood".

MADem

(135,425 posts)
17. I'm rather surprised that you're taking offense, given you
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:16 AM
Jun 2015

rather rudely coughed up the word "infantile" to describe my quaint insistence that words should mean what their definitions say they mean....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infantile

So...have a nice day, I guess. You are, most certainly, excused.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
19. Quite right--I couldn't. I don't see a need for name calling simply
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:51 AM
Jun 2015

because you disagree with my view on this matter.

You, obviously, have a different view.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
27. Hate to break this to you... you aren't a homo sapiens.
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:10 AM
Jun 2015

If you are of european descent, you are a cross-breed of homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis.

What of our evolutionary ancestors? What about all the other homos that existed on Earth? Were they persons?
What about the evolutionary successors of homo sapiens? Will they be persons?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
28. I'm from multiple regions, not just Europe, though I have some
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:16 AM
Jun 2015

in me.

I am just not sold on calling a whale a person. Smart, sentient, self-aware, certainly. But it ain't a person. IMO, anyway.

RandySF

(58,728 posts)
6. I think it depends on how we define personhood.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:06 AM
Jun 2015

No, they are not human, but the article strongly suggests that scientists are getting ready to say that dolphins, which includes killer whales, may be capable of self actualization.

hunter

(38,309 posts)
24. I try never to get stuck on the meanings of words. Words are very shifty things.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:54 PM
Jun 2015

I have an extreme love-hate relationship with language. Occasionally I take vacations, or at least short breaks from language, disallowing it from my mind. Maybe it was a survival thing for me. A few of the "voices in my head" are not nice. The only voices I keep around reflect what I think of as "myself" and I toss the rest out with the garbage. The Ezekiel sorts of lunatic street preacher voices are not welcome in my head.

You're argument is too reminiscent of the "marriage *is* one man, one woman" argument. "Because that's what marriage *is*.

Round and round. Brawndo, it's got Electrolytes!



I could never be a lawyer.

I do see orcas as "people." It doesn't take anything away from our own personhood to recognize this.

We spew all these space alien, angel, and demon fantasies when we haven't even recognized the other intelligences of our own planet.

Humans are not "sapiens" in so many ways; as a supposedly "wise" and "intelligent" species, we tend to be narcissistic morons.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
25. I don't agree about the "marriage" word. All marriage means is "union."
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 03:08 AM
Jun 2015

A marriage between honey and barbecue sauce....for example. A marriage of wit and wisdom. A marriage of disparate ideas. The idiots who tried to redefine marriage in the tortured fashion you mention just failed in their effort--and good thing. If you try to add to the definition beyond the concept of a union, you're going far afield.

People, to my view, are homo sapiens. Orcas may be intelligent, sentient, self-actualized beings, but they aren't people. People can be mean, stupid, cruel, dumbass racists--there's nothing "noble" or "better" in the word itself. "People" killed those bible students in the church, and those moviegoers in Aurora, and those young students at Sandy Hook. There's nothing terribly recommending about the word "people," in and of itself.

People can be assholes!

As for sapiens, I regard that more as capacity--the gas tank, as opposed to the gas.

Rather than try to expand the definition of "people" to fit animals, I say, instead, just make room for the doggone animals where appropriate. It's simpler than trying to torture the language.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
32. I'm not going to repeat everything you've said on this post simply because you've..
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 06:21 PM
Jul 2015

...said everything that I personally (excuse the pun) feel.
You've just said it better than I could.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
4. “Right now, there is no one besides a human who is a person,” Huh? Citizens United has made
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:24 AM
Jun 2015

any corporation more of a person than you or me. We're just human resources.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
15. Maybe that awful decision can do some good
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:54 AM
Jun 2015

India has named dolphins (not sure about killer whales) "non-human persons". That is some compassion right there. I eat meat because I think that is the human diet, but I strongly oppose animal cruelty on any level. Human need to evolve already because our heads are still in our asses.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
21. One of the TV commercials on for GE right now is boasting about their
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:43 AM
Jun 2015

sensors on oil rigs making things 'safer', but the crude graphic they use seems to show something emitting sonar-like tones, which are the undersea equivalent of noise pollution, with similar devices indicted in causing various cetacean beachings and other health issues. If we ever did get serious about declaring cetaceans people, we'd have to cut way way down on our use of devices that create dangerous undersea vibrations, including explosives as well I suppose.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
23. Or what about the booms Obama approved?
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jun 2015

It is so messed up what we are doing to the oceans. And that is going to kill us. We know more about distant planets than our own oceans and think we can mess around all we want. I hope the sea rises up and fights back personally because what humans are doing is appalling.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
10. Human superiority has always been a myth.
Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:31 AM
Jun 2015

Just because we can kill other things doesn't make us superior to them in any way.

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
34. we are superior in several measurable ways
Thu Jul 2, 2015, 08:19 AM
Jul 2015

we are clearly the masters of this planet, for good AND way too often for ill.

Just because we have plenty of negative influences doesn't make us not superior, it just makes us unwise and immature.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
26. So, how shall we define a person in the broadest sense?
Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:04 AM
Jun 2015

Computational capacity?
Ability for abstraction?
Language?
Ability for irrationality?
Emotions?

Is a baby a person?
Is a toddler a person? Is a dog with the mental capacity of a toddler a person?
Is a toddler a person because he will become a person one day?
Is a mentally impaired person a person?
Is a mentally impaired person a person because he/she used to be a person?
Is a super-computer a person?
Is a computer a person because it can be upgraded to a super-computer?
Is the emulation of a person a person?
Is the copy of a person a person?

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
30. No
Wed Jul 1, 2015, 05:13 PM
Jul 2015

I don't think you have to think an animal is equal to a human in order to treat them "humanely."

One does not require the other.

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