Science
Related: About this forumAre killer whales persons?
That is the essence of the challenge the killer whales pose to humans, especially those humans who hold them captive. But it is also a larger challenge to all of us, especially if we endeavor to take our role as stewards of the world in which we live seriously. It is a strange and alien concept in a world dominated by Western thought, in which humans have historically been regarded as exceptional beings apart from nature and in which all nonhuman occupants of the world are considered animals, at best property and at worst vermin, the extermination of which is required for the sake of human well-beings.
Right now, there is no one besides a human who is a person, says dolphin scientist and ethicist Lori Marino. Theyre all property, no matter how complex they are, no matter how much we love them. They have no inherent rights of their own.
Yet the more we learn about dolphins in general, and killer whales in particular, the more that our assumption of innate superiority looks like a presumption. Orcas, with their big brains, complex social structures, mysterious communications, and mind-boggling sixth sense, by their very existence, challenge the long-standing belief that human beings are the planets only intelligent occupants. Social life for killer whales, as we have seen, is deeper and more omnipresent than it is for humans; their identities are defined by their families and tribal connections; and their empathy is powerful enough to extend to other species. If orcas have established empathy as a distinctive evolutionary advantage, it might behoove a human race awash in war and psychopathy to pay attention.
Weve also learned that these creatures have rich emotional lives. Their brains are extremely developed in the areas associated with emotional learning, and their tight social arrangement, in which family bonds remain for life, is complex and sophisticated. They also have a demonstrated capacity for empathy. Nor, for that matter, is this only true of dolphins and cetaceans generally. The more we learn about a number of creatures that have always been deemed non-persons by dint of their nonhuman status, the more their emotional lives are being revealed: chimpanzees and all the great apes, elephants, even cats and dogs and pigs and cattle, all have more developed emotional centers than we had previously supposed.
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/27/are_killer_whales_persons_the_more_we_learn_about_orcas_the_more_our_assumption_of_innate_superiority_looks_like_a_presumption/
deathrind
(1,786 posts)In the sense that they deserve to live free and not caged up in a tank.
greyl
(22,990 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I think they're intelligent, though.
I know of a few "persons" who aren't very smart--some of them were running around demonstrating with their confederate flags, today!
Personhood and intelligence don't always go hand in hand.
Ask my dog. She's pretty smart, too.
greyl
(22,990 posts)What are the necessary requirements for personhood?
By what measure have you ruled out Orcinus orca?
MADem
(135,425 posts)greyl
(22,990 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)If we want to use terms like "self actualized" or quantify "intelligence," in describing animals that are sharper than we gave them credit previously, fine.
But, to me, a person is a human being--and I don't care what Citizen's United says. I think that was a boneheaded decision--corporations may be made up of people, but they aren't "people." They're corporations.
greyl
(22,990 posts)Please excuse us, we'll be over here entertaining broader interpretations of "Personhood".
MADem
(135,425 posts)rather rudely coughed up the word "infantile" to describe my quaint insistence that words should mean what their definitions say they mean....
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infantile
So...have a nice day, I guess. You are, most certainly, excused.
greyl
(22,990 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)because you disagree with my view on this matter.
You, obviously, have a different view.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)If you are of european descent, you are a cross-breed of homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis.
What of our evolutionary ancestors? What about all the other homos that existed on Earth? Were they persons?
What about the evolutionary successors of homo sapiens? Will they be persons?
MADem
(135,425 posts)in me.
I am just not sold on calling a whale a person. Smart, sentient, self-aware, certainly. But it ain't a person. IMO, anyway.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)I think, you are just a sophisticated chat-bot. HA!
RandySF
(58,728 posts)No, they are not human, but the article strongly suggests that scientists are getting ready to say that dolphins, which includes killer whales, may be capable of self actualization.
MADem
(135,425 posts)persons.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)hunter
(38,309 posts)I have an extreme love-hate relationship with language. Occasionally I take vacations, or at least short breaks from language, disallowing it from my mind. Maybe it was a survival thing for me. A few of the "voices in my head" are not nice. The only voices I keep around reflect what I think of as "myself" and I toss the rest out with the garbage. The Ezekiel sorts of lunatic street preacher voices are not welcome in my head.
You're argument is too reminiscent of the "marriage *is* one man, one woman" argument. "Because that's what marriage *is*.
Round and round. Brawndo, it's got Electrolytes!
I could never be a lawyer.
I do see orcas as "people." It doesn't take anything away from our own personhood to recognize this.
We spew all these space alien, angel, and demon fantasies when we haven't even recognized the other intelligences of our own planet.
Humans are not "sapiens" in so many ways; as a supposedly "wise" and "intelligent" species, we tend to be narcissistic morons.
MADem
(135,425 posts)A marriage between honey and barbecue sauce....for example. A marriage of wit and wisdom. A marriage of disparate ideas. The idiots who tried to redefine marriage in the tortured fashion you mention just failed in their effort--and good thing. If you try to add to the definition beyond the concept of a union, you're going far afield.
People, to my view, are homo sapiens. Orcas may be intelligent, sentient, self-actualized beings, but they aren't people. People can be mean, stupid, cruel, dumbass racists--there's nothing "noble" or "better" in the word itself. "People" killed those bible students in the church, and those moviegoers in Aurora, and those young students at Sandy Hook. There's nothing terribly recommending about the word "people," in and of itself.
People can be assholes!
As for sapiens, I regard that more as capacity--the gas tank, as opposed to the gas.
Rather than try to expand the definition of "people" to fit animals, I say, instead, just make room for the doggone animals where appropriate. It's simpler than trying to torture the language.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...said everything that I personally (excuse the pun) feel.
You've just said it better than I could.
MADem
(135,425 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)any corporation more of a person than you or me. We're just human resources.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)India has named dolphins (not sure about killer whales) "non-human persons". That is some compassion right there. I eat meat because I think that is the human diet, but I strongly oppose animal cruelty on any level. Human need to evolve already because our heads are still in our asses.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)sensors on oil rigs making things 'safer', but the crude graphic they use seems to show something emitting sonar-like tones, which are the undersea equivalent of noise pollution, with similar devices indicted in causing various cetacean beachings and other health issues. If we ever did get serious about declaring cetaceans people, we'd have to cut way way down on our use of devices that create dangerous undersea vibrations, including explosives as well I suppose.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)It is so messed up what we are doing to the oceans. And that is going to kill us. We know more about distant planets than our own oceans and think we can mess around all we want. I hope the sea rises up and fights back personally because what humans are doing is appalling.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)they're better
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Just because we can kill other things doesn't make us superior to them in any way.
qazplm
(3,626 posts)we are clearly the masters of this planet, for good AND way too often for ill.
Just because we have plenty of negative influences doesn't make us not superior, it just makes us unwise and immature.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Computational capacity?
Ability for abstraction?
Language?
Ability for irrationality?
Emotions?
Is a baby a person?
Is a toddler a person? Is a dog with the mental capacity of a toddler a person?
Is a toddler a person because he will become a person one day?
Is a mentally impaired person a person?
Is a mentally impaired person a person because he/she used to be a person?
Is a super-computer a person?
Is a computer a person because it can be upgraded to a super-computer?
Is the emulation of a person a person?
Is the copy of a person a person?
I don't think you have to think an animal is equal to a human in order to treat them "humanely."
One does not require the other.
RussBLib
(9,006 posts)something the GOP and the faithheads are not too good at
Orrex
(63,199 posts)Heigh-o!