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MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 07:35 PM Nov 2014

Anybody here at (or recently admitted to) a "top 10" graduate school in physics?

My daughter is at one of the small private schools in New England and driving herself nuts because she thinks she has to have a 4.0 (or darn close to it) to get into one of the top 10 graduate schools in physics.

Note: This is her goal, not mine. She is a sophomore and has already done research which will be published soon and has a really high gpa, but this drive for perfection is affecting her health. I know other things are taken into account, but it's the near perfect gpa she is concerned about. Can someone shed some light on this gpa thing?

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Anybody here at (or recently admitted to) a "top 10" graduate school in physics? (Original Post) MelissaB Nov 2014 OP
Best Luck to your daughter. Bright mind & determined soul. misterhighwasted Nov 2014 #1
Thanks misterhighwasted! MelissaB Nov 2014 #3
Wonder if the admissions departments at those schools would tell you. nilram Nov 2014 #2
I thought about calling one or more of the departments, MelissaB Nov 2014 #4
An undergraduate that has her name on a published paper, JDDavis Nov 2014 #5
About the GPA... MelissaB Nov 2014 #7
A single "B" in her GPA? JDDavis Nov 2014 #14
MIT is her top choice MelissaB Nov 2014 #15
From my personal knowledge, MIT values musician applicants very highly JDDavis Nov 2014 #16
Tell her that faculty recommendations carry a lot of weight. s-cubed Nov 2014 #6
Yes, I think her recommendations will be great MelissaB Nov 2014 #8
Another plus on her resume would be... reACTIONary Nov 2014 #9
Thanks! I'll let her know. MelissaB Nov 2014 #10
I spent a winter term at Argonne National Lab in my senior year in physics. longship Nov 2014 #11
Some good advice above caraher Nov 2014 #12
Perhaps she could write to some professors in the field? csziggy Nov 2014 #13
IMO BadgerKid Nov 2014 #17

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
1. Best Luck to your daughter. Bright mind & determined soul.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 07:39 PM
Nov 2014

Kudos to her mom!
Can't answer your question but I can send good vibes.

nilram

(2,879 posts)
2. Wonder if the admissions departments at those schools would tell you.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 07:52 PM
Nov 2014

Or if one of her profs would have some thoughts.

In the meantime, you could suggest that having a balanced life will help her studies,
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Physical_exercise_sharpens_the_brain.htm
http://ed.ted.com/lessons/how-playing-an-instrument-benefits-your-brain-anita-collins

All of this to say: I have no clue, but good luck.

MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
4. I thought about calling one or more of the departments,
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 08:14 PM
Nov 2014

but I hate to do that as a mom. LOL! I think her professors could shed some light on the issue, but she thinks it would be somewhat frowned upon to ask about grades. She finally did (this week) talk with her adviser who told her not to worry too much about her grades because they are excellent.

Thanks for the articles. We've advised her about exercise, and she's going to work on that. Also,she does play an instrument. She has continued her piano lessons even through this year.

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
5. An undergraduate that has her name on a published paper,
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 08:57 PM
Nov 2014

even only as a "contributor" or "research assistant" or whatever title she gets,

THAT would have a lot of weight if she applies to some top grad schools.

If she has more than one publication with her name on it before she graduates, she's miles ahead.

Women in physics, some schools are making it a priority to get a more balanced number in their programs. So she may have a slight advantage in being considered, with about a 3.6 GPA or above. A 4.0 undergrad GPA is not that common in most grad school candidates.

There are probably dozens of fine graduate programs in physics in the USA, all with excellent reputations and opportunity. What might be more important than simply "the top ten" in her selection process would be the area of specialization or sub-specialization she is considering. Some grad programs are better equipped "specialized" to meet her interests and goals, and some grad programs just may NOT be in what she now thinks are the "top ten", but will give her more advanced concentration for what she is most interested in.

The advice of her advisor is probably all you need to know at this time. A high GPA isn't the only thing graduate admissions offices want to consider. They want to know that the candidate is a fine scholar, yes, but they also want to know that the candidate is a mature, balanced, reasonably happy young adult who shows promise as a good researcher, team member, and potential teacher. Most graduate students have to do research, work with others in the research, and share some responsibilities for assisting faculty in the undergraduate teaching load of the department.

Obsessive qualities are helpful, as a grad student, but enjoying grad student life is also somewhat important in determining ultimate success in a young career.

Here is an excerpt from something that just came up with a Google search..it makes sense to me.

Grade Point Average (GPA)
Grades are important not as a sign of intelligence, but instead grades are a long term indicator of how well you perform your job as student. They reflect your motivation and your ability to do consistently good or bad work. Not all grades are the same, though. Admissions committees understand that applicants' grade point averages often cannot be compared meaningfully. Grades can differ among universities - an A at one university may be a B+ at another. Also grades differ among professors in the same university. Admissions committees try to take these things into account when examining applicants' GPAs. They also look at the courses taken: a B in Advanced Statistics may be worth more than an A in Introduction to Social Problems. In other words, they consider the context of the GPA: where was it obtained and of what courses is it comprised? In many cases, it's better to have a lower GPA composed of solid challenging courses than a high GPA based on easy courses like "Basket Weaving for Beginners" and the like.


There's more at this web page, and links to other similar pages.

http://gradschool.about.com/cs/miscellaneous/a/want.htm

MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
7. About the GPA...
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 09:09 PM
Nov 2014

My daughter made her first (and only) B EVER her first semester. I guess you could say it was kind of a shock. It happened to be in a more advanced physics course which most students would have taken later.

She realizes some schools will meet her needs more than others, but right now she doesn't know which area she wants to concentrate in.

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
14. A single "B" in her GPA?
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 10:58 AM
Nov 2014

That is nothing to sneeze at. And sometimes one learns more about how to effectively obtain an "A" in courses further-on, simply by seeing how the "B" happened, (what exactly "fell short" of an "A" in her performance in that course).

Course performance in the first two years of undergrad work are not ranked as highly as course performance in the junior and senior years when admissions committees are considering a candidate.
And a small scattering of "B"s in an undergrad's performance record is not the final straw.

At MIT, for example, admissions committees look for exceptional performance or creativity and inventiveness in many of their graduate science candidates. Research paper publication as an undergrad is wonderful to see, for example, as are inventiveness and creative approaches to problems, perhaps across several closely-related disciplines, (e.g. physics and materials science, or bio-engineering and biochemistry).

Tell your daughter to take some time off every week for something completely unrelated to study, a chance to let down her hair and have some laughs. Tell her to relax, most graduate students at top schools are NOT 4.0 undergrads.

MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
15. MIT is her top choice
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 06:45 PM
Nov 2014

at the moment, and the professor she is working with has connections there.

She does take some time for piano and has some friends, but I'm not sure the word relax has ever been in her vocabulary.

Thanks for the info and taking the time to reply.

 

JDDavis

(725 posts)
16. From my personal knowledge, MIT values musician applicants very highly
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 07:05 PM
Nov 2014

Last edited Sun Nov 23, 2014, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

No I didn't get a PhD in any field, but have more than a casual relationship with admissions committees for undergrads and grads there.

A somewhat accomplished/aspiring musician among grad students is not a rare sight. Some areas of physics, (e.g.: acoustics), are closely related to music. The Boston/Cambridge area welcomes many grad student musicians/singers/performers into dozens of opportunities to keep up their musical practices and performing while in grad school, (at MIT/Harvard/or a dozen other grad school programs.. B U, BC, etc.)

At MIT, (as I am sure is true for many other graduate science universities), transition from a four year undergraduate program directly into grad school is NOT true for all incoming grad students; some spend a year or more out working before matriculating into the PhD program. A year or two of work or teaching or research (or even research-related travel) can open even more doors to more grad schools. Not all first year Ph.D. students at most places are 22-23 year olds; a very few even enter as old as 30-32.

Negatives to being at a "top school" to consider down the line once the Ph.D. is obtained: limited job opportunities for some in very esoteric areas of research; few jobs in America opening up for the "top" grads, even in teaching or research. Some Ph.D.'s from the "top schools" find themselves "overqualified" or simply unable to find the exact line of research work they desire. Once the Ph.D. is achieved, right now, in this labor market, opportunities in the US are somewhat limited for some specialties. Some European nations offer research positions, but only where near fluency in that second language is required,and has been where some of our brightest may wind-up, at least for a while, usually at a smaller than desired salary. In the US, an MIT Ph.D. will often get you an interview anywhere, but not always at the job one desires.

A second negative to MIT's Ph.D. candidates; very very long hours, and the isolating conditions that it imposes upon one's lifestyle; some people spend 70-80 hours a week working on a project for a year or two. Even though Cambridge is a fascinating place to be, spending long hours in a lab or on a project somewhere is not really enjoying the great lifestyle and many cultural diversions of the Boston area. Some of the research MIT does is done at the four corners of the planet, too, so Antarctica or Greenland might be where a Ph.D. candidate spends a year or two.

All the above my opinion only and won't appear at the Institute's official web site. Don't quote me on this to the admissions folks.

Another suggestion: since your daughter is already in New England for her undergrad work, she might try to be in touch with grad students at a few of the places she is considering, even finding a way to meet up with a few of them, say, in her junior year or so, on a vacation break. There are grad students around MIT about 24/7/365.. somewhere on campus. Maybe there's a way she can get to meet a few at the schools she is considering.

And, by the way, a Harvard Ph.D. in physics is still possible, even tho the campus is half a mile or more further down the Charles River, (silly comment, sorry). Seriously, while an MIT Ph.D. in physics would be more likely oriented toward climate research, or engineering, or biophysics, or medical research, a Harvard Ph.D. in physics is more oriented toward pure research, research methodology, or theoretical physics, although both campuses do theoretical physics to "beat the band", (music?) and compete only with some of the other top ten on her list.. (I won't even name them!)

s-cubed

(1,385 posts)
6. Tell her that faculty recommendations carry a lot of weight.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 08:58 PM
Nov 2014

She needs to keep her grades up, but it's even better if she can work with a prof on a project, during the school year and/or the summer. If it leads to a published paper, even better. Profs don't really know you through your grades, so they can't give really good recommendations based on that alone.

I have 3 physics PhDs in my family, all from top tier schools.

MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
8. Yes, I think her recommendations will be great
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 09:17 PM
Nov 2014

from what we can see so far. She did research her freshman summer and plans to continue this summer or do an REU somewhere.

Three physics PhDs, eh? That's some good genes there.

My husband also has a PhD in physics, but not from a top tier school and not recently which is why my daughter won't listen to him and calm down about the one B she made. She thinks the pressure is now on to never make another B. I can't imagine going through college like that...

reACTIONary

(5,749 posts)
9. Another plus on her resume would be...
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 09:39 PM
Nov 2014

...an internship. Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory sponsors undergrads in summer internships. Argonne National Laboratory does also. She should ask her advisors about opportunities.

longship

(40,416 posts)
11. I spent a winter term at Argonne National Lab in my senior year in physics.
Sat Nov 22, 2014, 11:45 PM
Nov 2014

It was the late 70's. The guy who ran the program was from Lehigh Univ. He proselytized for his Catholicism a bit, but I liked him. However, there were a fair number of Lehigh students among the attendants that semester. I got a small stipend, though, which helped with the costs. It was enough to have a couple of pleasant weekends in downtown Chicago. But things were fairly cheap back then, as long as one stayed out of the blues clubs. Not good for a blues fan.

But it was an incredible academic experience.

caraher

(6,276 posts)
12. Some good advice above
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 12:10 AM
Nov 2014

The PhD is a research degree, so what they're looking for is research talent. Summer research and recommendations are what will set her apart, not whether she has a B or two on the transcript.

I was at more of a top-20 school (but top 3-5 in my subfield) and I don't think any of the faculty running experimental groups were overly concerned about grades, even in the grad school courses. But the theorists did seem to care, I think because what they do all day long is much more similar to doing things like working on problem sets.

csziggy

(34,120 posts)
13. Perhaps she could write to some professors in the field?
Sun Nov 23, 2014, 03:01 AM
Nov 2014

For instance, at FSU's Physics Department, there are some very well known female physicists. Susan K. Blessing was just named Woman Physicist of the Month, September 2014 and is noted for encouraging women in the field:


Susan Blessing, Florida State University
Susan Blessing

Susan Blessing, a Professor of Physics at Florida State University (FSU), has done almost everything an educator can do to encourage undergraduate women to pursue science and engineering careers.

Blessing is the Director of Florida State University's Women in Math, Science and Engineering (WIMSE) Program, which is a living-learning community for science and engineering majors. She is also the Director of the Physics Department's Undergraduate Program. Dr. Blessing was the 2013 Chair of the American Physical Society's Committee on the Status of Women in Physics and served as the organizer for one of the APS Conference for Undergraduate Women in Physics sites, which was held at FSU in January, 2014. In addition to all this, she has created an innovative course for physics majors to ease the often wrenching transition from introductory to upper division courses.

Dr. Blessing encourages her WIMSE students to join FSU research groups early in their time here. She also encourages the students to venture out into the bigger world during the summers, joining undergraduate research programs around the globe. One WIMSE physics major spent the summer of 2012 at CERN and was in the CERN seminar room when the Higgs announcement and history were made.
http://www.physics.fsu.edu/#


Perhaps your daughter or you might want to write to her for recommendations in how to approach your daughter's postgraduate studies. Here is Dr. Blessing's page at FSU: http://www.physics.fsu.edu/people/Personnel.asp?fn=Susan&ln=Blessing&mn=

BadgerKid

(4,541 posts)
17. IMO
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 06:45 PM
Nov 2014

GPA should be competitive, not necessarily perfect. Undergrad research and letters of recommendation from a research advisor or professor whose class she did well in or whom she has spoken with above and beyond the coursework. Not sure if MIT accepts or requires GRE scores. I think for MIT especially (seeing I interviewed for undergraduate there), being a little rounded out and having an ability to think outside the box is a plus. Best of luck to her!

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