Atheist Prayer: Religious Activity Not Uncommon Among Nonbelievers

[cbayer]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/atheist-prayer_n_3498365.html

Posted: 06/25/2013 5:29 pm EDT | Updated: 06/26/2013 1:34 am EDT




Why would an atheist -- who by definition does not believe in God -- pray?

A Washington Post article by Michelle Boorstein spotlighted the fascinating phenomenon of a minority of atheists, agnostics and the religiously unaffiliated who take to prayer, chaplaincy and other commonly religious practices as a way to experience community with others, relax, meditate and connect to something other than the physical.

The Post leads with Sigfried Gold, who "drops to his knees on the beige carpeting of his bedroom, lowers his forehead to the floor and prays to God" twice a day.

While Gold doesn’t believe there is some supernatural being out there attending to his prayers, he calls his creation “God” and describes himself as having had a “conversion” that can be characterized only as a “miracle.” His life has been mysteriously transformed, he says, by the power of asking.

While Gold may be a unique example, he represents something bigger among the 20 percent of Americans who are religiously unaffiliated, as a recent national survey from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found. The survey, released in October, estimated there to be 46 million religiously unaffiliated adults in the U.S. That includes 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics and 33 million people who don't identify with any religion.

more at link

[Warpy]

1. Ah, another variation of the "no atheists in foxholes" fiction

Gold sounds like a unique example, a miracle of self delusion.

[cbayer]

2. I disagree that that is the point.

I think the point is that there are as many varieties of atheists as their are atheists and as many varieties of theists as their are theists.

And everything in between.

I think we make a mistake when we try to pigeonhole people into having to be one way or another.

Perhaps there really are no true scotsmen.

[longship]

3. Not uncommon?

That's basically hogwash.

I am sure that there are some non-believers who do something like prayer, but I would bet my bottom dollar that those people are pretty damned rare.

The article discusses polling of the "unaffiliated". But that may easily include plenty of Christians who, for instance, go to a church which is unaffiliated with a standard religion or may include believers who just don't attend services. The article talks about spiritual people, too, as included in the "unaffiliated" group.

But I would not call any of those people atheists. Atheism is pretty simply defined, the lack of belief in god(s). So if one prays to one, it's fairly apparent that the person is not an atheist.

I realize that I am being pedantic here. But what use is the word atheist if it is stretched to mean something other than its definition?

Or is this yet another attempt by somebody with a theist point of view to portray atheists as just another form of theism? Atheists really do believe in god after all?

I suspect that this is what this about.

I am an atheist. I do not believe that there are gods of any kind. I do not pray. Ever.

Thanks for posting. Interesting, in spite of my disagreement.

[cbayer]

4. Agree. They don't really substantiate that claim.

Again, I think there are all kinds of atheists and I applaud that. And I think there are a substantial number of atheists who still have some sort of spiritual beliefs, just no belief in a god or gods.

What is the use of the word atheist if it is defined so rigidly and narrowly that it doesn't include people like that?

Why can't we just let people define themselves and get away from the idea that some one can't really be what they say they are if they exhibit some kinds of difference - like "praying" or attending "services" of some sort?

[longship]

9. I'll give you that, somewhat.

But prayer is an activity associated with a supernatural power which is basically anathema to anything remotely resembling atheism.

Again, maybe some will say I'm being a pedant, but I don't think so. I think this is just what I described at the end of my post.

I have heard such things in the past, always in an attempt to deny I really am an atheist (your true Scotsman ), or maybe as mere astonishment that an atheist actually exists.

I usually file such comments in the same folder as Pascal's wager inquiries, and implications that I don't believe in anything.

[cbayer]

10. Is it anathema?

I know atheists who don't believe in a god or gods, but also do not believe that we are the top of the universal food chain.

They are not quite sure how to describe it, but they think there is more.

And some derive some comfort from attempting to communicate with whatever that is.

Others, of course, don't even give it a thought, and that's cool as well.

I understand that the argument that there are different kinds of atheists and that some are actually spiritual to some extent makes the neck hairs stand straight up for some atheists, I think there are many, many varieties.

[longship]

11. Wouldn't such a person be called a deist?

Some friends of mine are like what you describe, but they're the same people who question my atheism (in a fun way). Both oof them describe themselves as deists, certainly not atheists.

As in my original response here, why stretch the meaning of a word to the point that its definition is meaningless?

There may be different kinds of atheists, but not to the extent that it contradicts the meaning.

Maybe we'll have to disagree on this, my friend. Respectfully, of course.

Regards.

[cbayer]

12. Can't one believe that we are not the top of the food chain

without believing that some more highly evolved creatures are nothing like gods?

I am not suggesting that it be stretched so far as to be meaningless, but that making it more inclusive may not be such a bad idea.

[longship]

15. I don't think any life is the top of the food chain.

Certainly not humans. But that's a different issue, one of biology I suppose.

But a higher power in the universe that's worthy of prayer seems a stretch to me.

Some have mentioned meditation. I wouldn't call that prayer, necessarily.

Bah! I am just being silly here. This is just another one of those insoluble demarcation problems. I am seeing a difference and you're seeing the lack of a fine line of separation.

We're both looking at the same damned thing from two perspectives.

Touché! I gladly give up.

[cbayer]

16. I think we can respectfully agree to disagree.

No need to give up. I hope you know that I highly value your perspective and your friendship.

[longship]

18. But you are right. It IS a spectrum.

And the line of demarcation is fuzzy, by necessity of human nature.

From my perspective a praying atheist is a contradiction, though. But a meditating atheist is not, at least in principle.

I have to admit it's not a dichotomy, which I took as your point.

I have a marked tendency toward reductionism which is not always well served, this being one of those cases.

No biggie.

[Nay]

6. Exactly. Just because you are 'unaffiliated' doesn't mean you are an atheist, FFS. nt

[cbayer]

8. The author does seem to conflate the two, but I agree - they are not the same thing at all.

[On the Road]

23. I Don't Doubt You When You Say

"I am an atheist. I do not believe that there are gods of any kind. I do not pray. Ever."

On the other hand, the phenomenon is old enough and frequent enough to have become a commonplace: "there are no atheists in foxholes." I don't think you can infer that atheists do not pray either from your personal experience or from the observation that praying is inconsistent with an intellectual position of atheism.

How behavior can coexist with incompatible belief systems is another matter. It may seem trivial, but it is these are the kind of questions that lead to greater understanding. It could be that many younger atheists are uncomforable with this kind of analysis, since it moves the discussion from the realm of science and reason to the irrational world of psychology, emotions, and behavior. However, being able to deal with it in those terms will ultimately provide modern atheists with a more sophisticated version of human belief sytems.

But atheists do pray -- I have done so myself on a few occasions, usually under stress of some kind. The questions is whether that is dealt with by dismissal or by attempt to understand how people's belief systems interact with their behavior.

[longship]

24. But those behaviors always have a cultural context.

Always!!

In the culture of this country, it is one with Christian roots. But some atheists have trouble shedding those cultural memes.

Apparently I don't in spite attending church weekly for the first dozen or so years of my life. The thing is, even in my earliest days in Sunday School I never really believed it. I prayed when I was told to, not because I thought I was actually doing anything useful.

People come to their atheism from different paths, undoubtedly substantially unique.

These are undoubtedly highly personal issues which is why in spite of being a strong atheist myself, I try to understand the dynamics of what makes human psychology so malleable in these areas.

I haven't prayed for decades because I really never believed it ever meant anything for me. Or to any other putative intelligence.

Others stories are undoubtedly different. But that's how I see these things. To me, it is a strange phenomenon.

[Nay]

5. Uh, as an atheist for 30 years and one who has been involved in atheist and humanist groups for

that time, I can only think of two secular humanists who do anything even remotely close to this. Many of us meditate, but if they are counting that as "prayer" they are completely wrong.

[cbayer]

7. The writer does make the point that for some it is closer to a form of mediation

and as a way to connect to others.

I don't think prayer has to necessarily be connected with a belief in god.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Yeah exactly. And further investigation indicates this article and the related one

From the wapo Are perhaps deliberate bullshit.

[LiberalAndProud]

13. The article is truly odd.

Gold doesn't believe in a supernatural being, but prays to God. I don't get that at all.

As an atheist, I would answer that poll about the importance of religion in my life at the highest level, because there is no corridor of life that isn't touched by institutionalized belief systems. I pay for wars fomented by it. You can't escape religion, regardless of belief.

In cases of public prayer, I am respectful. I don't call it prayerful. That is my experience. Others' may vary.

[cbayer]

14. It is somewhat odd, but I think it speaks more about the

"spiritual but not religious" population than of those that strongly identify as atheist.

Agree about the role religion plays in our lives. Like it or not, it's there and it's not going anywhere.

So I tend to take the position of embracing the good in it and pushing back against the bad.

[LiberalAndProud]

17. pushing back against the bad.

I am aware that there are those who do. I notice that they are not in positions of power. In fact, they are routinely removed from power where they are identified. I could point to example after example.

embracing the good. I truly wish I could even see the good in it. Please understand, atheists in my extended family are far outnumbered by good, progressive believers. I embrace the changes they wish to see. On the other hand, I perceive the institutions as quite satisfied with inequality, injustice and subjugation. Again, I could provide citations, but it would change no minds.

It is also true that anyone trying to argue that the Church's mission, as an institution, is not to preserve the status quo, is not likely to change my mind. So there we are.

[cbayer]

19. This guy represents the good and is pushing back hard:

NAACP’s William Barber emerges as leader of Moral Monday protests

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/06/24/naacps-william-barber-emerges-as-leader-of-moral-monday-protests/


And these groups have provided strong leadership in promoting GLBT civil rights:


”The enormity of today’s decisions cannot be overstated. The combined impact of these two rulings puts our nation further down the inevitable and proper path towards full marriage equality for the LGBT community. All Americans should rejoice in today’s decisions because they bring us that much closer to fulfilling the promise of our Constitution.”

- Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of Interfaith Alliance

“The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which we vigorously opposed when it was first considered, has been an offensive and discriminatory measure since its passage in 1996. Since then millions have been denied fundamental rights because of the impact of this ill-advised law. Though that law still stands, today’s ruling in Windsor v. United States promises to lessen some of its most damaging effects. By striking down Article Three of DOMA – a section of the law that the Obama Administration stopped defending several years ago – the Court has enabled legally married same-sex couples to receive the same federal benefits, rights and responsibilities as married heterosexual couples.”

- Union for Reform Judaism, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, Women of Reform Judaism and the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism

“We at Muslims for Progressive Values are thrilled in the Supreme Court’s decision to strike down the definition of marriage as being exclusively between a man and a woman. The Quran defines marriage as the union of two souls. We congratulate the Supreme Court for affirming the universal values of justice and equality for all and in its decision to dismiss the appeal of Proposition 8.”

- Ani Zonneveld, President, Muslims for Progressive Values

“This is a great day for marriage equality, for all couples, gay or straight, because the Supreme Court has underscored the central point that marriage is ultimately about deep commitment between two people who love one another, not prescribed gender roles. While we still yearn for the day when equal marriage is fully legal, granted and protected in all 50 states, this is a great step toward full freedom and recognition for LGBT people by the U.S. federal government.”

- Rev. J. Bennett Guess, executive minister of the United Church of Christ’s Local Church Ministries

[dimbear]

20. When the hammer hits the thumb, not the nail, a deity is almost sure to be invoked.

Otherwise, not so much.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. i think ive more or less managed to get god out of any cursing i do.

i use deadwood as sort of a rosetta stone program for cursing: endless streams of profanity that rarely if ever invoked a deity. By the way the ubiquity of nail guns has sort of minimized all hammer events, good or bad, although nail through hand is now a more serious possibility.

[dimbear]

22. Old habits die hard.

BTW there are some interesting studies of the value of swearing. It actually does provide some pain relief. OTOH, in really serious emergencies people don't tend to swear.

[eomer]

25. Two interesting things about this article...

The first interesting thing is that it spurred me to look in the dictionary to check the exact meaning of the word "drivel" and, check, this article does fit that definition.

The second is that it was based on a Washington Post article and that article is quite interesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/non-believers-say-their-prayers-to-no-one/2013/06/24/b7c8cf50-d915-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_story.html

The WAPO article is very thoughtful and thought provoking and is about the ways in which spirituality can be enriching, fulfilling, and beneficial to a person without any belief in a god or the supernatural. Which, to me, suggests that religions in general could be better understood, more accurately understood, by thinking of their belief in a god or the supernatural as incidental and unnecessary. So that Catholicism for example would work just as well for many people, perhaps even better, if it was thought of as merely a construct that is helpful and enriching rather than a claim of revelation of truths without any clear foundation.

The Huff Post article, on the other hand, is just a long stream of sloppy conflation manipulated to conclude things that haven't really been shown. Meh.

[cbayer]

26. I agree that the WaPo article is better and this one not so good.

But it has prompted some interesting discussion.

A person's individual belief or lack of belief in a god is so personalized. While it may be incidental and necessary for spirituality in some, it may be critical for others. I hope it is never uniform, for that would be quite dull.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Ugh that article is egregiously wrong.

New research on atheists by the Pew Research Center shows a range of beliefs. Eighteen percent of atheists say religion has some importance in their life, 26 percent say they are spiritual or religious and 14 percent believe in “God or a universal spirit.” Of all Americans who say they don’t believe in God — not all call themselves “atheists” — 12 percent say they pray.

Nope. Wrong. Pew data cited was about unaffiliated not about atheists. But without that slight error there is no substantiation other than anecdotal for the thesis.


Unaffiliated, But Not Uniformly Secular
How important is religion in your life?
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Unaffiliated/NonesOnTheRise-full.pdf

[Neoma]

27. Anyone ever consider that they may really be pantheists?

[cbayer]

28. The author doesn't make much distinction in that regard.

I suspect some, if not many, of those who identify as "spiritual but not religious" might fall under that category.